For those of you who support war...

[Hepburn]

[Hepburn]

1. Thank you for the unRec....

...the families of those who died really appreciate it that you cannot stand the reality of what you support.

[ShortnFiery]

4. Thank-you. These PICs are difficult to view but REAL to the troops and their loved ones.

R.I.P. and may their family and friends also find peace. :patriot:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

What you're doing is no better than trotting out holocaust photos to support the opposite position.

We could sit here all day and show photos of both the consequences of war and the consequences of not going to war. It's pretty fucking sickening that you would even do this, frankly. No one here is cheering for bloodshed (and if they are, they should be banned immediately.)

[ShortnFiery]

33. Whoa! You just made the OP's point for her ... "hoisted on your own petard."

:evilgrin:

[Me.]

61. What Do You Think War Entails

if not bloodshed? And your holocaust statement is way out of line.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

65. It really isn't out of line.

I could easily say that the way the Taliban treats women and their proximity to an increasingly accessible cache of nuclear weapons means that Al Qaeda's murdering could rival that which occurred under the holocaust. You're telling me that a well-placed nuke couldn't wipe out a few million people? You can definitely make the case that this is what we're trying to avoid by sending more troops in to stabilize the region while putting into place a long-term political campaign to end the circumstances that create terrorism once and for all.

As far as what war entails, sometimes, not going to war also brings consequences. Again, that's why the holocaust reference is relevant.

[Me.]

73. It's Totally Out Of Line

And such easy use of Holocaust references has the Anti-defamation League concerned that the horror of the Holocaust is being minimized

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

77. I'm concerned with how often the ADL uses the excuse to justify their actions.

But the point is that I'm not doing that because I think it's analogous behavior to posting pictures of human suffering to cow people into supporting their policy position.

[Me.]

79. Complete Pap

[cali]

36. I'm sorry, but you don't know what the positions of the people in those photos

are. It ill behooves you to speak for the families of those who died.

[Hepburn]

45. So, you cannot spot misery when you see it?

How sad for you...and all who know you.

[cali]

48. C',mon. You're waaay smarter than that. That they're grieving for

those they've lost does not tell you that they're against the war.

And for the record, I'm completely opposed to this surge and think we need to get the fuck out of both Afghanistan and Iraq.

I'm not, however, so arrogant as to think I have any fucking right to speak for families who have lost sons and daughters and husbands, wives, fathers, mothers and friends to these wars- wrong as I personally believe them to be.

You are evidently that callous and that arrogant. How terrible and disgusting for you and anyone who knows you, dear.

[Hepburn]

52. They are MY children, too.

We all experience a loss of a soldier. I can feel the pain...how about you?

[cali]

62. As I live in a tiny town that has lost 4 young men to this war

I actually know people who have lost their family members to these wars. As I have a 23 year old son in an area with high enlistment, I know several of his friends who have been to Iraq and Afghanistan.

That doesn't change the fact that it's disrespectful for you to have the hubris to think YOU have the right to speak for military families who have suffered these losses.

You don't.

[Hepburn]

80. And you have the hubris to think that YOU are the only one who has ...

...lost a loved one to a war?

Where do you get off?

Consider this: When you ASSume....

[cali]

90. What the hell are you babbling about. I said nothing of the kind

the ugly hubris of assuming YOU can speak for the people in these pictures is disgusting. And it's all YOURS.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

63. No she isn't. (nt)

[YOY]

2. Aw Hep. Why do you have to spoil their fun with such negativity???

They've finally gotten their pony. Let them rejoice...it's just what they wanted.

Maybe some of us crazy "leftists" will get our pony one day too...oh who am I kidding? That would be comedic! We wouldn't know how to even react!

[Hepburn]

6. It's the armchair chicken hawks that get to me...

...like Cheney and the rest of those who got their fucking defements while my friends went and died in the 1960s.

Fuck them...if they support the war, then volunteer and send the kiddos, too.

JMHO

[Thothmes]

102. Just remember who sent you friends overseas

to die during the 1960s

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

18. Show me some posts that display anyone having "fun" over this. (nt)

[YOY]

23. Well then...two quick examples...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x35205

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7124365&mesg_id=7124365

Honestly...if you think it can be won...then please 1. Define win and make sure a timeline is there. 2. Please be willing to bet cash on it. Every time someone does the 1st they're never willing to put money on it.

It's an unwinnable situation.

[Hepburn]

25. +1....

...some cheerleaders do not like reality.

[YOY]

26. and never willing to "nut up or shut up"

I've been trying to make money off of them since this started...no biters.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

27. Neither of those posts are "enjoying" or "cheering" for war.

Nice try. And I do believe Obama has defined both the terms of success and the timeline, which is why I do support his actions. I'm not going to bet money with some fucking stranger over the internet just to satisfy your ego. If you can't argue policy on its merits, leave me the fuck out of it.

[YOY]

29. Nut up or shut up.

It's not about ego. It's about right and wrong.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

32. Yes, because placing a wager when there are lives on the line is about "right and wrong"

Nice try.

[ShortnFiery]

35. Escalating the Killing and Dying in Afghanistan will make Americans less safe in Afghanistan ...

AND ALSO makes AMERICANS less safe here on USA soil.

Guess what? al Qaeda is GLOBAL and decentralized. No gullible American Citizen, Afghanistan is not the "central front" of al Qaeda or what BushCo called "the war on terror." :crazy:

[Hepburn]

42. +1

[Name removed]

44. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Duende azul]

39. Facts please. Where did he define the timeline?

[unhappycamper]

3. That's what war is always about.

Killing and dying.

[QC]

5. Wars are only bad when the other guys are in charge. n/t

[Hepburn]

8. Situational morality and ethics....

fucking suck!

[QC]

9. Yes, but that's what we're down to now.

Sickening, isn't it?

[Hepburn]

12. Very, very sad...

...disturbing and, yes, sickening to the core of me.

:cry:

[shadowknows69]

15. +1

[dmallind]

31. And moral absolutism is fatally naive

The idea that it's never OK to use military force has no place in reality.

[Hepburn]

46. Please....

...put words in my mouth. :eyes:

[dmallind]

47. So situuational ethics are OK? Moral absolutism is the ONLY alternative.

Which way do you want it? If there are no absolutes than there is situational ethics. If you are OK with some military force usage but not others then you are practising situational ethics. Now *I* don't have a problem with you doing that - I consider it to be the only sane worldview frankly. You however seemed to have a problem with moral relativism.

[Hepburn]

55. Ummmmm....

...where in the hell did you get these conclusions? :shrug:

[dmallind]

69. Find me another alternative then.

Either moral choices can differ based on circumstances (situuational ethics) or they cannot (moral absolutes). It's pretty simple.

[Starry Messenger]

7. A timely reminder.

Some of the creative rationales I've been reading around here this week have been sickening.

[Hepburn]

10. What I posted is the reality....

...and thank you for your reply...

Sad to see that some just do not remember what war truly is all about.

[Starry Messenger]

41. Yes, it's very sad.

I'm getting tired of the word "nuance" used in this context. :(

[NNN0LHI]

11. Yep, those kids should have been working at one of their local auto factories

But those jobs are all overseas now. No decent jobs for our kids.

The only jobs left for them is dying in some hell hole.

God Bless America.

Don

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. No one forgets their sacrifice.

I have yet to see even one person "cheerleading" for the war on DU. Not a soul here is getting their popcorn ready to relish in the bloodshed. It's rather disingenuous that you would even post these pictures in this in this manner. Really, you're not any better than the RWingers that use the soldiers as props for their policy positions.

[Hepburn]

17. The war cheerleaders are here...

...how did you miss them?

Oh, and welcome to my ignore list. If you are capable of ignorning the TRUE cost of war, then as far as I am concerned, you need to keep silent in my world.

JMHO

PS: If you wish to see a cheerleader, use this:

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hepburn]

21. Dear Ignore....

...I cannot hear you. When you come to accept the reality of war, then you are worth seeing and hearing.

JMHO

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

30. It's not a humble opinion if you put your fingers in your ears to stop from hearing anything else.

Nice try though. Enjoy your monochromatic world view.

[Sinistrous]

78. "...the war cheerleadeers are here..." Please link to some.

Show us the posts that celebrate war. At least then we can see who some of the DU lunatic fringe are.

[Hepburn]

85. Who said celebrate?

Please read and comprehend ~~ thanks! :hi:

[Sinistrous]

88. Cheerleaders celebrate. I foolishly assumed you were literate.

But I will interpret your clumsy dodge as an admission that you don't know of any such posts.

Thank you for the clarification.

[Sinistrous]

89. Gee !

I must be on the OP's fearsome "Ignore List."

I guess it stings to be cornered.

[shadowknows69]

14. Thank you for this post.

[Hepburn]

20. ....

...:hug:

Thank you....I lost too many friends in VN to not remember that war is not a good thing.

:cry:

[Hepburn]

24. You are welcome....

...IMO, it is time that we are remember the TRUE cost of war. It is not merely some political discussion.

[shadowknows69]

84. It is always that time.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

16. Powerful, thank you, but to some, this photograph is more important

[Hepburn]

22. Yes, that gets the Rec votes...

...but there are some on here who unRec pictures of the funerals of our dead.

How disgusting...and how unDU like.

JMHO

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

86. If it was Bush who gave the same speech and was going to increase troops

do you think that he would have the same support from this many DUers?
I think not.

[dmallind]

28. For those of you with no understanding of logic...

....see the OP and applaud unthinkingly.

[Hepburn]

34. For those of you who hate reality and are willing to ignore it....

...read the above reply.

Hey, volunteer and send your kiddos, OK? You love war? Then stop sitting on your ass at your computer and posting and grab your gun, take your children and fucking sign up, OK?

Or...STFU.

[dmallind]

43. Too old and I don;t force my "kiddos" to do anything now they are grown. Do you?

But that said - do you personally take a role in every single thing you think is a good idea? Are you in the Peace Corps? A full time pro-bono lawyer? Why hold me to a different standard? There's that emotional irrationality again. So STFU pally.

[Hepburn]

49. I have done volunteer work in the VA hospitals since the 1960s...

...for our dead, dying, wounded and their families. That includes things like carrying bed pans when there was not enough staff and holding the hands of a dying soldiers when there was not enough family.

I have done more pro bono work ~~ and still do it ~~ on VA benefits, SS diability, etc., than I can remember. Matter of fact, I had a hearing continue this AM until next week. And...I paid all of the costs in the matter so the Vet could get the action timely filed.

And you?

BTW: Hey, then, don't force your kiddos or grand kiddos...just encourage them to go. You support it...then that is the least you should do, right?

I put my money where my mouth is ~~ now you tell me WTF you have done, OK?

[dmallind]

50. I support many causes also

I volunteer at homeless shelters and food banks. I teach adult literacy classes to immigrants and the unedcated poor (and used to do so for prisoners too - but no major facilities where I live now). I've escorted women into Planned Parenthood clinics - the usual stuff. I could do more - but so could you and everyone else. That however is irrelevant.

But you missed the whole point - do you get actively involved in EVERYTHING you support? You didn't mention a whole host of worthy causes (nor did I) - do you not support them? I would be a liability in the military at this point in my life - as would the "kiddo" incidentally albeit for different reasons. Why should we go and reduce their effectiveness? There are plenty of things we both can and do work on to support worthy causes.

[Hepburn]

51. How nice....

...next time ~~ give peace a chance....and thanks for the unRec.

I am sure the families of the dead appreciate your thoughfulness.

And, IMO, you are the one who totally mised the point of this thread. How sad....especially to see on the DU that the funerals of the war dead get bashed.

Shame on all of you who sit and support the dying, but cannot deal with the reality of the same.

[dmallind]

60. You are projecting stupidly

a) I like peace - I think the people of Afghanistan should have a peaceful government after this, not wacked out woman-burning lunatics who would take over if we pulled out now.

b) I'm sure they do. I respect the volunteer service of their relatives - too much to use it to score cheap points. Every one of those fallen believed in the use of military force to improve the world. I'm sure they appreciate your support.

c) I did not miss the point - I saw it as the cheap emotional and illogical appeal that it was.

d) I did not unrec this thread. And why on earth does that matter who does? It's a childish and immature thing to worrry about.

e) I support the military, and understand their job comes sometimes with terrible results. They all did too. Where did I indicate problems dealing with this? I've seen military funerals before. I wasn't the one using them to score cheap points.

So to recap - you DON'T actively support everything you agree with either do you? How nice for you.

[Hepburn]

66. (click)

Intelligent discussion ends where name calling starts. I gave you a chance to act like an adult and discuss. Bye.

[dmallind]

68. Oh the irony!

Where was the name calling by the way? Stupidly is an ADVERB. Ta Ta! And for the others who are more reasone - since when did any poster "give" another the chanvce to speak? I always had that, and will always use it whether it is liked by any individual or not. It does not depend on your kind granting of that right. Ignoring me is a perfectly valid choice - but one that demonstrates an utter inability to support and defend one's views and a desire for only echo-chamber me-too responses. I hope I never become so insecure.

[Tailormyst]

37. Thank you

So many forget these are real people, with real families, real consequences. It is not a political game to "win". Somehow I think those applauding the president's decision are not the ones who face the knock on the door and all the pain that follows.

[Hepburn]

40. You are welcome....

...reality sucks...and, yes, IMO, you are exactly correct on your point of view.

:hug:

[Hepburn]

38. Kick....

...for reality.

[stray cat]

53. As a lover of peace - GENOCIDE ROCKS!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Buchenwald_Slave_Laborers_Liberation.jpg

I will stand peacefully by why others get slaughterered at home and abroad. If someone cries for help in the middle of the night I will stay inside and not help because I will not violently oppose those trying to murder or rape others.

[Hepburn]

57. Translation please. n/t

[JohnnyLib2]

54. From near Ft. Knox, thank you.

When the funeral is in this area, it probably effects the entire school each child attends, the entire church community if the family attends, the employer and on and on.

Ignoring this part of reality just-doesn't-work IRL.

[Hepburn]

59. My heart breaks for these families ~~ especially the children who have lost parents.

If there was some reason for these wars, I can see sacrifice...but why losses like this for literally no gain?

:cry:

[QC]

56. Spoilsport! n/t

[Steely_Dan]

58. Powerful Stuff n/t

[tammywammy]

64. As I sat through my counter-intelligence briefing Tuesday morning

They opened the session with "why is counter-intelligence important" and they showed a brief video of military personnel fighting overseas as well as in coffins. These same type of photos as you're OP was used for "why the defense industry is important." Irony, it's funny.

[Hepburn]

67. Wow....

...talk about ironic! Thanks for the post.

I am guessing that the point of the presentation to which you refer is something along the lines that we must finish the job they started?

:hi:

[tammywammy]

74. No, it was a briefing on insider threats & counter-intelligence

Basically be aware of your surroundings, be mindful of people asking you questions, and real-life scenarios of recent spies caught in the US. That kind of stuff. But the opening was a video of military personnel on remembering why counter-intelligence is so important.

[Hepburn]

75. OK, got it ~~ misunderstood why the lead-in was used! n/t

[Soylent Brice]

70. K&R

[Hepburn]

72. Love the scrolling marquee in your post!

Thank you...:hug:

[Soylent Brice]

87. thank you!

if you like the marquee you should check out my journal.
:hug:

[Orsino]

71. We paid for it. We deserve these souvenirs for our scrapbooks. n/t

[closeupready]

76. Stop with the propaganda!

:sarcasm:

[Javaman]

81. A big hearty rec!

Hepburn, you continue to impress me. :)

Cheers!

[Hepburn]

83. Thank you....

...:hug:

[Individualist]

82. K&R

[WonderGrunion]

91. If we just nuked Afghanistan in the beginning, like I suggested

we would have no grieving American military families. We would have no "no-bid" contracts. We would have no nightmares of rendition or Guantanamo. We would have no question of whether Osama bin Laden was alive or dead. We would have no trillion dollar war price tag. We would simply have an annihilated Afghanistan and no more threat from Al Qaeda.

That's probably not the solution you were expecting though.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

92. And we'd be considered some of the worst war criminals in the history of the world

for doing that.

[WonderGrunion]

93. After 9/11, we could have safely nuked Afghanistan

The argument could easily have been made that planes flying into buildings were weapons of mass destruction used against us. The Taliban regime had no countries that liked it enough to defend it form that action. When we used atomic weapons twice on Japan, it was to break the will of a nation of religious fanatics intent to kill us. It would work again in Afghanistan to end overt action against the US by Islamic extremists.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. Except that it would have killed millions of innocent people

along with the Taliban, plus the Taliban were not in any one place but all over the country, so unless the U.S. had nuked every city in Afghanistan and turned the place into a depopulated wasteland, the Taliban would have regrouped and rallied an angry and sorrowing population.

No, we would have received worldwide condemnation.

And even if we hadn't, it would still have been a heinous war crime.

[WonderGrunion]

99. I don't believe we would have been condemned.

One bomb would be enough to cause instant capitulation of the rest of Afghanistan for fear of getting bombed themselves. There is a reason we didn't drop atom bombs on Tokyo or Kyoto. Japan grew to revere Americanism after we dropped atom bombs on them. The rest of the world began to look up to the US as a world leader after we dropped atom bombs on Japan. History does not support your assumptions. It does support mine.

[ConnorMarc]

100. You've GOT To Be Kidding Me!

Are you effing kidding me!?!???

Or are you just out of your cotton-pickin mind?

[WonderGrunion]

101. Other than "I hate nukes", do you have a fact based argument

against what I said?

I think there are only a smattering of instances that justify the use of atomic or nuclear weapons. Bringing a quick end to WWII was one justifiable instance, 9/11, in my opinion, was another.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. Yeah, bomb the innocent people in the country who DIDN'T

perpetrate 9/11 and probably didn't even know about it till long after it had happened

You must be someone who plays too many war video games and never stops to think about the PEOPLE.

[WonderGrunion]

107. The poppy farmers in Afghanistan are hardly innocents

Their contribution to the heroin trade is responsible for countless other American deaths. I won't cry for them when they're gone.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

109. The poppy farmers in Afghanistan are growing poppies because the

alternative is starvation. The 30 years of war have absolutely trashed the rest of the economy and opium is a reliable cash crop.

There would be no profit in opium if there weren't addicts in the West.

The U.S. could save a lot of money and lives simply by buying the poppy crop, selling it to pharma companies, and destroying the rest.

But NOOOOO, like a 12-year-old with an XBox, you just want to watch things go boom.

Your lack of human empathy and your viciously vengeful nature are sickening.

[WonderGrunion]

110. Murder for hire pays well, should I feel empathy for hitmen?

The US could have saved even more money in the beginning by nuking the rock pile we call Afghanistan and leaving the poppy fields a radioactive wasteland.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

111. OK, I get it

You're sick with hatred.

I'm done.

[WonderGrunion]

112. Is that better or worse than being a video game junkie?

Just wondering.

[treestar]

94. Is this how your argued against the freeps

Would you use this method with them now?

[ConnorMarc]

95. Moving Pics, However Aren't You Preaching To The Choir Here?

These should be posted on RW blogs and forum sites.

[Bluebear]

96. OMG no...this choir does not sing in harmony over this.

[Bluebear]

98. Why should I bother my beautiful mind with this?

[Mithreal]

103. Sad K & R

[amborin]

104. K & R

[Techn0Girl]

105. Thank you for posting the Reality the the War Mongers Don't want you to see

Join the DU Peace Movement - show your support by changing your icon to a Peace Sign.

[JVS]

108. K&R because the war must end

[MellowDem]

113. For those of you who oppose the war....

Their blood is on your hands. Oh wait, no it's not, because I don't believe in blaming the deaths of others on someone because of their support or opposition to foriegn policies.



Didn't support intervention in Darfur? Well, look at this picture and feel guilty. Hmm.... seems rather illogical and assholish doesn't it?

[BeHereNow]

114. Proud to recommend this thread in the name of REALISM.

There is a serious disconnect in this country and here on DU,
except for those who have served or have family members of
friends who have lived the tragedy of war.

Thanks for the thread that brings it home.

BHN