What happens when a 17 year old boy spends 11 years in prison?

[ecstatic]

And what if the boy goes into prison believing his sentence is 108 years--that he will never get out?

What happens is, you might as well throw away the key because in 11 years, he would either be dead or a hardened criminal.

I know this won't be popular, but I think Huckabee tried to do the right thing by Mr. Clemons--who had committed an unarmed robbery at 17, but it was already too late. Clemons had already served 11 years of hard time in prison as an inmate with nothing to lose. If some judge had shown compassion when he was 17, those officers might still be alive today, along with Clemons.

That being said, I wouldn't mind one bit if Huckabee's presidential hopes were derailed over this. But that is a separate issue.

[Blue_Tires]

1. but you add in the Dumond case and it's a disturbing pattern

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

2. 28?

[ecstatic]

4. lol. yes, he was 28 when his sentence was commuted, fyi

[cali]

3. Do the right thing? Read Conason's article about Hucky's pardons

[seabeyond]

5. wow. werent you also admament that the cop was wrong for killing him. that just revenge

that he couldnt know it was him. that when they run, you let them go?

i dont know if anything would have helped clements or not. seems to me at 17 and armed robbery he already had his path chosen. that is not an innocent crime.

i dont put much into huckabees action. nor the cops shooting.

clemmons at 17 made a choice and later in life made a choice. no excuses

[ecstatic]

6. unarmed robbery... Yes, I was adamant about it because it could have

just as easily been an unarmed black man who had nothing to do with the case who was shot that night. That's a separate issue too.

[Chulanowa]

11. That's right folks, you read it here

He comitted unarmed robbery when he was a minor. That makes him tained for life! Who cares that he got shot, he was almost like fucking Hitler or something.

[FBaggins]

20. It was "aggravated robbery".

That means it wasn't an "unarmed robbery"... and it wasn't his first.

[Chulanowa]

43. Why not just chop his hands off, then?

No hands, no fists, no thieving!

It it was good enough for the 6th century desert nomad's sense of justice, it should be good enough for 21st century America's!

[FBaggins]

7. So... what you're saying is...

the problem isn't that he was let out... but that he wasn't let out EARLY enough?

[ecstatic]

10. He should have been sent to boot camp or something when he was 17

Prison shouldn't be the first option for a teen who committed a nonviolent crime.

[Lance_Boyle]

12. unarmed != nonviolent n/t

[FBaggins]

13. Ahh... so to avoid teaching him violence...

...we send him to the military?

[FBaggins]

19. The "First option" ended years earlier

And aggravated robbery means that there was a gun or other deadly weapon involved.

[me b zola]

15. Adult prisons are no place for minors

When minors are sentenced to adult prisons you are sentencing them to sexual slavery. And yeah, that would kind of mess a person up beyond what ever problems they may already have. Our criminal justice system needs to be reformed.

[FBaggins]

18. There's oviously no chance that he was a dud... a bad seed...

to begin with...right?

He had a number of convictione before being sentenced as an 18 year old.

[me b zola]

22. Even "bad seeds" have the constitutional right

to not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment. Surly we can devise a criminal justice system that can deal with youths who commit crimes and exhibit potential anti-social behavior in a humane and constitutional manner.

[FBaggins]

23. Lol. Putting a armed robber in jail

is by no means cruel OR unusual... let alone both.

Let us not pretend that a 17 year multiple-felon is a "youth"... or that armed robbery is merely "anti-social behavior".

[me b zola]

25. Anyone who thinks that juveniles in adult prisons aren't raped is not being honest

If you send a youth--no matter what a "bad apple" he is--to prison, you are sentencing them to be raped and to be a sex slave. Perhaps you do not consider that to be cruel and unusual punishment, but I do.

[FBaggins]

29. Wow... not even a good strawman.

Did anyone say that never happens?

If you send a youth--no matter what a "bad apple" he is--to prison, you are sentencing them to be raped and to be a sex slave.

Now THAT is dishonest. So they're ALL raped, eh?

Seems to me that maybe you shouldn't take a gun to school... then rob a woman claiming you have a gun... then punch her in the face, then threaten a judge... then assault a guard (but injure your mother when you miss him) then try to take a gun from another guard while trying to escape.

Then you don't have to worry about maybe being raped in prison.

[me b zola]

30. Yes. They are ALL raped.

And yes, the constitution applies to "bad apples" as well. You don't get to pick and chose who you want the law to apply to.

[FBaggins]

31. Oh please.

Do you really expect everyone to believe that?

What an amazingly naive person you must expect everyone else to be. Amazing how evil all these adults in prison must be that any one of them would rape a child... but the juveniles who get sent to prison are all so innocent. Who knew a person's 18th birthday was so magical.

Please don't expect the rest of us to live in your imaginary world.

[me b zola]

32. I wish that you could live in their very real world

Just for a week.

[FBaggins]

33. No problem

I wouldn't rape little girls or attack young women or take a gun to school. Then I would have no problem

One of us cares about the people he hurt and killed. The other thinks he would have been a perfectly
nice young man if only the evil justice system had just let him get away with the first several crimes. I'm sure he would have gotten it out of his system eventually and gone on to be a model citizen

for the the record... That second one of us needs to
have his medication dosage increased.

[me b zola]

35. Where the fuck did I say any of those things that you attribute to me?

You are one nasty piece of work.

[FBaggins]

37. You said "2+2"

Then get upset that anyone would conclude that you meant "4" ???

For the record - He was never a minor sentenced to an adult prison. He was an adult when he went to prison.

Can't send him to juvi as an adult... He would obviously rape all of them. Right???

[ecstatic]

38. Keep in mind, he didn't start doing the rape, etc until after serving those 11 years

As I said in the op, that initial sentence turned a troubled youth into a monster.

[FBaggins]

41. Nope. He was a monster already.

The error was in letting him out.


Your OP "who had committed an unarmed robbery at 17" undersells reality substantially.

[Stables2010]

8. I agree it was a nice jester by the former Gov. but he still fucked up politically speaking

To bad his "christian" base doesn't understand compassion, Hes done, farewell Huckabee It was shit knowing you.

[napi21]

9. Exhonerate Huck if you choose, but if I remember right,

Clemons did another crime after his comutation. THAT'S when he should have gone back to life in p. I can see sometimes people are really sorry for what they did and deserve a second chance, but if they're too stupid to stay out of trouble after that, all bets are off.

[FarCenter]

14. Wishful thinking, but unrealistic -- some people are just evil, even at 17

[me b zola]

16. I agree on every point

And would add that the criminal justice system desperately needs to be reformed. Minors have no business being in prison with adults, imo it is cruel and unusual punishment.

[Liquorice]

17. I disagree. Nothing can make a person murder four innocent people. And

you are minimizing Clemmons' original crimes. He was extremely violent and was already a very dangerous criminal at 17. It wasn't a simple unarmed robbery that got him that sentence. Also, Clemmons was given a rare second chance by being set free, so he certainly was shown compassion. After he was given this second chance, he committed aggravated robbery, had two felony assault charges, was accused of raping a child, etc.

Clemmons was a very sick person and should have never been free to roam the streets.

[malaise]

21. My position exactly

Even a broken clock gets it right twice a day.

[MadMaddie]

24. Yes he was 17 and here are his crimes (it was a concurrentsentence)

* Sentenced to 5 years for robbery in Pulaski County, Aug. 3, 1989.
* Sentenced to 8 years for burglary, theft and probation revocation in Pulaski County, Sept. 9, 1989
* Sentenced to an indeterminate amount for aggravated robbery and theft in Pulaski County, Nov. 15, 1989
* Sentenced to 20 years each for burglary and theft of property in Pulaski County, Feb. 23, 1990.
* Sentenced to 6 years for firearm possession in Pulaski County, Nov. 19, 1990.

Tyler said some sentences were concurrent and some consecutive. But the total effect of all these sentences was a sentence of 108 years.


http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/2009/11/maurice_clemmons_record.aspx


This was not a typical 17 year old committing mischief. He made choices and he got caught. Clemmons was no angel at 17 and to pretend so is naive.

[David Zephyr]

26. I'm rabidly anti-death penalty and think many drug-related imprisoned should be out, but...

this fellow had demonstrated over and again that he was a repeat offender.

Thank you for pointing out his sheet of crime. I agree with you that he as a bad apple.

And these were the times he only had gotten caught.

Huckabee made a big mistake as he did in other cases.

[MadMaddie]

27. No problem

The details paint a different picture of just another 17 year old.

The other huge issue that this points out is that mental health in this country especially for the poor is almost non-existent. At 17 Clemmons was a ticking time bomb and it was just a matter of time.

I agree with you about the drugs offenders in with long sentences especially marijauna. Legalize it and tax the shit out of it. Treat it like we treat alcohol (DWI etc).

The Death Penalty should be abolished it's too costly and it's not a deterent. What I would prefer to see is hard labor that benefits the surrounding communities from sun up to sun down, no cable, no weights etc for the lifers. These criminals get more than our homeless. It's not that I am not compassionate but I want prison to be a place where no one wants to go to get street cred.

Huckabee released over 1000 felons....there will be more of these cases.

[ecstatic]

39. I know people who stole as teens and are upstanding adult citizens today

I'm just saying he should have been reformed in a different way at 17... prison at that age was not the answer.

[noamnety]

28. It went beyond those crimes

to a pattern of behavior while in the justice system as well (threatening a judge, making weapons in prison, hurling something at a prison guard). Those aren't behaviors that should make him eligible for parole, let alone a pardon.

[tuckessee]

34. He gets out and blazes a trail of awe inspiring crime & becomes a folk hero????

Oh wait - that's Johnny Dillnger.

Clemons got out and murdered in cold blood four human beings for apparently no reason at all other than to satiate a burning hatred.

[ecstatic]

40. Hopefully you're not serious

In no way is he a folk hero, I simply outlined a problem in our justice system when it comes to dealing with teens.

[tuckessee]

42. I am serious.

John Hubert Dillinger was, and still is, a folk hero whose awe-inspiring crimes will be remembered forever. Clemons is nothing more than a vicious cold-blooded murderer (something that was never said about Dillinger).

Both did similar amounts of long, hard time for a "minor" crime at approximately the same age. After release one became "Gentleman Johnny", a bandit who captured the hearts and imagination of a nation, the other became a mindless killer.

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. Seems to me that many other made worse decisions than Huckabee

Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, now a commentator on Fox News, remarked Sunday that, “Should (Clemmons) be found to be responsible for this horrible tragedy, it will be the result of a series of failures in the criminal justice system in both Arkansas and Washington state." Huckabee should know. The initial failure was his. Despite Clemmons' eight felony convictions beginning in 1989 and a history of violent behavior, Huckabee granted Clemmons clemency in 2000, freeing him with 97 years left on his 108-year sentence. Clemmons was convicted of another felony burglary in 2001 and went back to prison for three more years.

After moving to Washington, Clemmons’ behavior grew more erratic. Last spring, a Pierce County sheriff’s deputy was called to Clemmons neighborhood in response to reports that he had been throwing rocks at cars, people and houses. Clemmons allegedly punched the deputy — aided by two cousins who restrained the deputy.

Clemmons made bail after just a night in jail; it was a holiday, allowing Clemmons to post bail without appearing before a judge. Clemmons failed to make a scheduled court appearance two days later. He came to court about two months later, and was served with an additional charge of rape. Clemmons could have been sent back to Arkansas in July to serve a long prison sentence, but Arkansas declined to extradite.

According to The News Tribune of Tacoma, a psychological exam in October determined that Clemmons presented an “increased risk for future dangerous behavior and for committing future criminal acts jeopardizing public safety and security due to past illicit behaviors.” Yet, he made bail on the assault and rape charges in late November. About a week later, Clemmons allegedly walked into the Parkland coffee shop and shot four police officers dead for no apparent reason other than they were police officers. It is a tragedy of immense proportions, both for the families and law enforcement colleagues of the four slain officers and the whole of our law-based society. It seems all the more tragic in light of the many missed opportunities to take this man off the streets.

http://www.tdn.com/articles/2009/12/04/editorial/doc4b16f5f75c53a970962432.txt

Huckabee's decision to release him after 11 years is the most understandable one of the lot. There is a possibility that someone matures into a responsible human being after age 17. But when he then reoffended within a year of release, that should have been the signal he was was still a danger. He should have been out on parole, and the new offense should have meant he would be back in prison for a long time. And he then shouldn't get bail for serious charges like assault and rape.