"To Train up a Child"...the alarming discipline methods of Debi and Michael Pearl

[madfloridian]

One reviewer in the 90s said that "In folksy, friendly style, 'To Train Up a Child' offers techniques that promise to yield happy and obedient children. This promise is a holy grail to tired, frustrated and often isolated parents, who are told that their anger will be eliminated when they follow techniques that produce 'immediately obedient' children. The book also appeals to parents' concern for their reputation -- happy, obedient children will save Mom and Dad the public embarrassment of having intractable children. It's a tempting promise: perfect domestic peace, a kind of Martha Stewart flawlessness reworked for Christian families."

Well, yes, maybe so...until you read some of their spanking methods. It is shocking to me to recommend treating children that way.

From the Religious Tolerance website:

Pro-spanking positions of the Pearls

The Pearls published the book in 1994. 1 It is frequently used by many conservative and sometime mainline Protestants.

..."The Pearls compare children to stubborn animals: both have the same predictable responses to unpleasant stimuli. The book advocates a consistent behaviorism that involves switching a child's bare skin until the child's will is broken. The result? A model child who is completely compliant: a model parent who is a conqueror."

..."Beth Felker Jones outlines the training techniques:

"The authors advocate tempting an infant by putting an appealing object within reach and compare the object to the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden. ... When the child reaches for the object, the parents lash the child. The suggested switch for a four-month-old child is a branch 12 inches long and an eighth of an inch wide. Rulers, belts and tree branches are recommended for older children. In the Pearls' world, crystal bowls, other breakable treasures and even loaded guns can be left around the house because curious toddlers can be trained to 'complete and joyous subjection'."

That is just scary stuff from people who proclaim to have the love of Jesus in their hearts.

There is more:

"The Pearls are evangelical Christians who believe corporal punishment is 'doing it God's way.' With a mailing list of tens of thousands of parents, the Pearls say that the justification for their approach is in scripture: 'He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes'." 4

"Chastening begins early. 'For the under-one-year-old, a little, 10- to 12-inch long, willowy branch (stripped of any knots that might break the skin) about one-eighth inch diameter is sufficient,' writes Michael Pearl. With older children he advises: 'After a short explanation about bad attitudes and the need to love, patiently and calmly apply the rod to his backside. Somehow, after eight or 10 licks, the poison is transformed into gushing love and contentment. The world becomes a beautiful place. A brand-new child emerges. It makes an adult stare at the rod in wonder, trying to see what magic is contained therein'."

This reminds me of the tactics of James Dobson, when he often spoke of the strong willed child. I used to tell our school's guidance counselor that there was nothing wrong with a child having a strong will, but she gave out his books freely to parents.

He even punished his little Dachshund named Siggie, beating him.

At eleven o'clock that night, I told Siggie to go get into his bed, which is a permanent enclosure in the family room. For six years I had given him that order at the end of each day, and for six years Siggie had obeyed.
"On this occasion, however, he refused to budge. You see, he was in the bathroom, seated comfortably on the furry lid of the toilet seat. That is his favorite spot in the house, because it allows him to bask in the warmth of a nearby electric heater..."

...""What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt. I am embarrassed by the memory of the entire scene. Inch by inch I moved him toward the family room and his bed. As a final desperate maneuver, Siggie backed into the corner for one last snarling stand. I eventually got him to bed, only because I outweighed him 200 to 12!"

That is called zero tolerance for little dogs. Pathetic. Let the dog stay there. Not a real problem. Just move him when someone needs to use the toilet. This is overkill.

From the comments about the discipline methods of the Pearls. These two are stunned, but many comments highly praise these tactics.

"... not often in this current era do I find a text about child-rearing so completely and utterly archaic and ridiculous. The Pearls do not hold any professional qualifications to write child-rearing text or give anyone any advice about how a child should be reared...oh, sorry,...trained (as in a dog or mule?)."

"Parents are instructed to whip their infants daily for no reason to teach them submissiveness from the very start of life. ... They encourage parents to whip their children 10 times several times a day starting at 3 months old. This makes me so sad and sick."

Where is the compassion and love in this "training."

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. What they advocate is nothing less than ABUSE.

They should not be allowed to be near any child, of any age.

I am horrified.

Those children will grow up psychotic-at least some of them.

Sick fucks, those people.

:grr:

[SharonAnn]

162. This is what some of the "Yearning from Zion" ranch members said about the place.

These were the "fundamentalist" Mormons in Texas whse children were taken from them by Texas Child Services.

One of the women said that her husband's method of "breaking her child's will" as an infant horrified her. She said it's what they did to all the children.

[Fridays Child]

2. Sounds like a pro-child abuse manifesto.

I fear for any children being raised this way. Their parents are sick.

[FarLeftFist]

3. The Children of God and the Twelve Tribes also advocate child abuse. n/t

[cali]

13. I immediately thought of Twelve Tribes

A crazy cult I'm quite familiar with.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

125. Children of God encourage pedophilia. nt

[Quantess]

4. He can't even raise a dog to be obedient without losing his cool.

That flies in the face of dog training wisdom. You don't have to get angry, and in fact, it's much better not to get angry.

[Pithlet]

71. It's clear in his writing of that little anecdote that he thinks it's cute.

The reader is supposed to laugh along with him at telling of it. What a psychopath.

[the blues]

106. "...both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt"

I'm thinking maybe only one of them was swinging the belt. That asshole.

[PDJane]

5. Sounds like my father's preferred method of child rearing.

obviously, he was not allowed to discipline my child. In fact, he didn't see my child often, although he certainly wanted to remove him from my care. I wasn't, apparently, strict enough.

I was a single mother; my child is a well-adjusted 37 year-old.

It's my belief that children who are treated in this way are abused, and become angry, hate-filled adults waiting to take their pain out on someone else. It's disturbing........and disgusting.

[PSzymeczek]

103. Yeah, mine, too.

I got knocked out of my high chair onto a concrete floor when I was 9 months old. My father didn't think I had eaten enough.

[Kutjara]

6. Let's see: this method of child rearing is likely to produce...

...adults who live in a constant state of fear, believe unquestioningly what they're told, reject novelty and new experiences, and obey any rules (no matter how arbitrary) as long as they have the force of "authority" behind them.

Oh, I get it: it's an instruction manual for creating Republicans.

[Chemisse]

15. Or good "Christians" nt

[Shallah Kali]

65. Exactly - it creates blind followers who were broken to obedience as infants

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/3/16/132347/107/Diary/Death_by_quot_chastening_rod_quot_

A child left to himself in a crib or a room is being trained. All child-initiated events that have consequences, be they pleasant or unpleasant, are training. If a child stumbles into an experience and finds the consequences pleasurable, he is trained to repeat it. If the consequences are unpleasant, then he seeks to avoid it. If an infant sticks his finger in his eye, the pain will discourage him from repeating that on himself, but he may try it on you. That is unless you should make his unwelcomed advances unpleasant for him. The first time an infant pulls your hair, if you pull his, he will never be a hair-puller. One taste of a plastic toy communicates that it is not made to eat. These experiences are physical, and are easy to understand, but what about soul training?

snip

For example, if a 3 month-old nursing baby bites, don't spank. She does not know she did bad. Just gently pull a hair on her head. She will startle back in momentary discomfort and immediately start nursing again. The tiny bit of discomfort makes the baby relate the biting down with the gentle pulling of the hair. You have not made her obey, you have only conditioned her to respond differently. That is training.


(The same article also refers to "popping the leg" of a thirteen-week-old infant not being quite so effective--the fact that it's mentioned at ALL is disturbing. This was in regards, incidentially, to a letter from a concerned reader who had noted that kids raised strictly by the Pearls' methods had literally lost "the spark of life". Very similar things have been reported by people who've been tortured or severely abused.)

snip

On p. 34 Michael Pearl relates the story of a mother hitting her 11 month old who doesn't want to eat any more "spinach-squash-mush" and pushes it away. The mother "picked up her little enforcer (whip), which was lying on the table, and swatted the child's hand." When the baby tries again to push the unwanted food away she "received another spat." Michael Pearl says about this scenario: "I loved it. It was beautiful." (p. 35) And then on p. 36 he says "I must encourage those of you with small children, train up your children now. Don't want until they are one year old to start training. Rebellion and self-will should be broken in the six-month-old when it first appears. Take this young mother's example and think of ways you can train your child. (smiley face)"

[Kutjara]

105. For me, the most chilling phrase of all in the...

...extremely disturbing text you quoted is "self-will should be broken." The will of the child to act on their own desires shouldn't be "shaped" or "directed" or even "moderated." No, it should be "broken." The child should have no will of their own. By this reasoning, the goal of parenting is not to raise a well-adjusted, thoughtful and compassionate human being. It is to create a robot. More specifically, a robot that can be easily programmed with whatever goals those in authority want it to have.

[Shallah Kali]

109. They believe infants are born evil. new born babies!!!

that leaves no room for letting any self remain lest the evil one sink his claws deeper. any tiny misbehavior is a sign the child is on the wrong path. What a bunch of profoundly terrified people. I would feel more sorry for them if they were not taking out their fear on babies.

[Zoeisright]

7. Sounds like a typical fundie to me.

Violent, crude, stupid, and mean.

[47of74]

8. The Cascade, Iowa newspaper actually thinks Dobson is qualified to give advise

[Trillo]

9. It's a very risky strategy for a family

to practice with a youngster they claim "to love".

OTOH, it may be honest to "beat" those who are only "claimed" loved ones.

[girl gone mad]

10. Their kids will grow up to hate them.

[surrealAmerican]

30. It's worse than that.

Those kids will grow up to hate themselves and the world around them, to distrust their own needs and desires, and to lack the capacity for judgment.

This is a way to raise mental patients.

[krabigirl]

43. and a good way to raise modern conservatives. Fear and hate...

[Cobalt-60]

11. This is deliberate saddism.

Until the day I first whipped my old man I got beaten on a regular basis.
He never dared raise a hand at me again.
It sucked, but its how they used to do things in the old days.
Had my father followed that line of deliberate cruelty described by these
mammon worshipers I would have inflicted far more than one well deserved
ass beating.

[Quantess]

82. That's often what happens--the kids hit back at the parents when they get big enough

and then, especially if the pre-teen or teen is being raised by a single mother, the dynamic of the relationship changes to the point where the parent is afraid of the child.

This scenario is completely avoidable if the upbringing hadn't been so heavy handed and hadn't relied so heavily on physical punishment.

[Quantess]

146. I also want to add that I'm sorry to hear that you went through that.

It really is how things were commonly done in the old days, and maybe not-so-old days. Both my parents said they were whipped as kids, but they agreed together, to not spank their own children, because they gained nothing from the physical punishment.

My best friend in adolescence (a big and tall girl) started hitting back at her mother, who physically abused her as a little kid. Plus, she was always "eating like a horse" and was constantly falling short of the ideal set by her skinny, Mormon-church-going, obedient sister. My friend dropped out of high school and I lost contact with her. Her skinny "good" sister went to BYU, so I heard.

[Cobalt-60]

149. thanks but dont sweat it.

I think they were old-old school.
They haven't been pushing their methods on the later generations.

[KakistocracyHater]

12. there is also "wife spanking" that's quite popular with the same sort

they talk of 'pre-emptive spanking' & 'maintenance spanking', there ARE a few passages in the Bible somewhere to justify it. A lot of ugliness going on in evangelical/fundamentist circles everywhere

[get the red out]

64. Yes, I have read some of their bulletin boards

Sick stuff! Women sign a paper permitting their husbands to abuse them for the slightest "wrong", and there is maintenance beating just to keep her in her place. I got so angry reading about that stuff on the web I had to stop, what I wanted to do to the men was vile at that point.

I don't know of anything MORE innately evil than fundamentalism. NOTHING! Without it civilization might be able to advance some. With it, I probably shouldn't use the word "civilization" to describe us.

[KakistocracyHater]

118. totally agree with you. If anyone finds a way to say no to the God of these

fundamentalists-of all kinds, it will be key to ending religious-based terrorism.

[Shallah Kali]

73. Found an article on that at Salon {{{shudder}}}

Spare the rod, spoil the wife
Just how "Christian" is "domestic discipline"?

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2007/08/22/christian_discipline

:hides:

[KakistocracyHater]

119. at least I am not alone in watching this madness, I'm glad you put a link up

thanks, reading it is......a quiet horror.

[madfloridian]

130. Oh, my, did you follow some of the links from that christian discipline site?

Follow some of the external links, very surprising at a Christian site. :wow:

[juno jones]

14. Puts me in mind of fetish and bondage training.

Kinda sick to use that on your kids, really.

[Judi Lynn]

16. They should be kept away from helpless people and animals.

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No Greater Joy Ministries

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org.nyud.net:8090/typo3temp/GB/d35a96b7d9.jpg

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/

Meet the Pearls
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/who-is-ngj/meet-the-pearls/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thursday, May 25, 2006 06:00 PDT
Spare the quarter-inch plumbing supply line, spoil the child
Saying no to "timeouts," some fundamentalist Christians "train up" their children by carefully hitting them with switches, PVC pipes and other "chastening instruments."
By Lynn Harris

~snip~
While the Pearls are well known in fundamentalist Christian circles, they were largely unknown to the secular world until March, when their discipline methods were tied to the death of a North Carolina boy and the alleged abuse of two of his siblings. As reported by Mandy Locke of the Raleigh News & Observer, the children's adoptive mother, Lynn Paddock, 45, a devotee of the Pearls' teachings, is currently behind bars. She is charged with first-degree murder in the death of 4-year-old Sean, who suffocated when wrapped tightly in blankets, reportedly to keep him from hopping out of bed. She is also charged with felony child abuse in connection with welts found on two of Sean's other five siblings. Nowhere in the Pearls' book do they advocate restraining with blankets; however, Sean's siblings had apparently been struck with a particular type of "rod" recommended by the Pearls: a length of quarter-inch plumbing supply line.

Paddock's attorney, Michael Reece, confirmed to Salon that Paddock owned "To Train Up a Child" and was a devotee of the Pearls' teachings. He maintains that Sean's death was accidental and that there's a difference between corporal punishment -- which he acknowledges may be "unpopular" -- and abuse. And actually, Paddock's connection to the Pearls may serve as part of Reece's defense of his client. "She's following a recognized philosophy even if it's not a mainstream one. The only one who advocates the PVC pipe is Pearl, " he says. "You can pull a switch off a tree all day long. There's no other reason to buy a PVC pipe -- that's clearly from him."

For the Pearls and advocates of Christian child "training," obedience is next to godliness. For their detractors, fellow Christians and home-schoolers among them, corporal punishment is akin to child abuse -- and to them, the Paddock case proves it. ("Christian," here and throughout, indicates fundamentalist or evangelical Protestants.) Outrage sparked by the case has fired up the blogosphere, bringing impassioned new attention to what is actually not an entirely new debate. Parents, religious and otherwise, have argued the merits and dangers of spanking since the invention of children. When it comes to physical "training" as essential to "biblical" child-raising, the Pearls are neither pioneers nor renegades; for fundamentalist Christians, corporal punishment -- or, as the Pearls prefer, "chastisement" -- is neither a fresh nor a fringe concept. But what's clear is that today, the controversy over biblical child-rearing is more than a family matter. Especially to its supporters, child "training" is yet another battleground in the culture wars.

As the Pearls, their advocates, and supporters of similar Christian parenting approaches appear to see it, child "training" serves, in part, as a bulwark against "modern," liberal, secular, permissive, "child-centered" parenting -- the touchy-feely stuff of timeouts that, they suggest, spoils children into believing in a boundary-free world that revolves around them. "Pearl and others in their camp associate permissive parenting and the assumed moral laxity that it produces with non-biblical, humanist or naive understandings of human nature. It's 'us,' the true believers, against 'them,' the secularists and anyone else who has fallen under their influence," says Mark Justad, senior lecturer in religion and society and executive director of the Center for the Study of Religion and Culture at Vanderbilt University. "It's all part of the larger picture of returning our whole culture to godliness." Or at least preserving godliness in one's own family, safe from the "crusade" launched by "spanking abolitionists," safe from the influence of the corrupt, and corrupting, secular world.

More:
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/05/25/the_pearls/

[mitchum]

74. Pearl is another pissy little asshat trying to pull off the whole patriarch shtick

he's even got the cliched look; it's how morons think that god and abraham looked.

[Judi Lynn]

148. You're right: he's role-playing, absolutely. He simply looks rigid, and stupid. n/t

[arcadian]

91. Thanks, I was looking for a picture of these sick fucks.

Where is their "ministry"?

[Judi Lynn]

147. They were both raised in Memphis, and currently live in rural Tennessee. n/t

[Are_grits_groceries]

17. It's just mean and in some way this method

has to give them some sick satisfaction. It probably thrills them and fills a sadistic part of their personal character. You don't beat your kids on some schedule to break their will. That's torture and child abuse. Every child near them should be taken away by CPS.

I also think its the lazy method to use. Anybody can smack a kid and call themselves a parent. It takes a lot of patience, time, and love to really raise a child.

They are raising kids who may emulate them and carry on this sick practice. They also are probably raising some kids who are going to have very serious mental problems. There will be a few who will have sociopathic characteristics, and end up doing gawd knows what.

[madfloridian]

26. It is mean and sadistic.

It assumes kids are naturally bad, and that view excuses a lot of evil actions.

[krabigirl]

41. This is so sad :(

[woo me with science]

18. I have become increasingly disturbed, reading political boards,

at how corporal punishment has become almost a type of "street cred" for those on the right, in order to prove they are good conservatives. If you go to right-wing political boards, you will see knee-jerk replies to almost any news story about crime or a social problem, exclaiming that the young criminals probably didn't get whipped enough as a child.

These replies come in the form of both guffaws and deadly serious statements quoting the Bible's "spare the rod and spoil the child." They are often paired with disparaging comments about all those liberals out there who spoil their children.

It is almost as though physical punishment of your child is becoming in their minds a core tenet of conservative parenting. If you don't believe in hitting your kids, you can't be a real conservative.

I am not an anti-spanking zealot, and it distresses me when some liberals use the term "abusers" for parents who deliver a swat on the butt to a toddler headed into the street. However, I am increasingly disturbed by this trend on the right to consider hitting your child a duty of parenting and proof that you are a good conservative.

[redqueen]

35. As an anti-spanking zealot...

IMO it is the 'swats' (which are IMO just as unnecessary as these beatings, though not as harmful) that are the leeway that allows this kind of bullshit to remain legal.

All spanking should be illegal, IMO.

[gorfle]

57. Do you have children?

Do you have children? What punishments do you use in lieu of spanking?

[redqueen]

62. Two. I take away privileges.

And my kids are amazingly well behaved. When they were 1 and 3, I used to get complimented by strangers in fancy restaurants on their behavior.

It's amazing what attentiveness can do... but 'swatting' is the lazy parents way, and as such the far more popular route.

[gorfle]

75. Mine are 1 and 3.

We try grounding and such with our kids but it is so slooooowwww to get a response.

When they are doing something wrong I want them to stop right now, not have to orchestrate a punishment regimen for the next hour or days or whatever.

I guess I'm lazy.

[redqueen]

80. At that age...

they aren't so aware of the concept of privileges, so the best solution is to remove them from the situation, or distract them somehow.

It isn't easy by any stretch of the imagination, but the rewards are worth it.

[mzmolly]

117. I've never spanked my child

who is a tween now. :hi: I have NO regrets about not spanking. Quite the contrary.

[krabigirl]

40. +1. But it also is in sync with how they act. They are bullies, warmongers, and hateful.

So it makes sense that they would beat (not lightly spank...hitting a kid with an object is beating) their kids.

[Starry Messenger]

19. Three months old??

:( That's child abuse. Nothing more to be said.

[Harry Monroe]

69. Beating on an infant is not child abuse, it is attempted murder!!!

[chemenger]

20. Their methods are not "child rearing", they're animal husbandry

n/t

[cap]

21. not even animal husbandry

you shouldn't even treat animals like this...
The SPCA and PETA would rightfully get after you and have your pet removed.

[LeftishBrit]

45. They're not even good animal husbandry...

Anyone who treats a dog like that should be permanently banned from keeping dogs.

[elehhhhna]

60. Siegfried & Roy are better parents!

[Echo In Light]

22. Sicko twistoids always seek legitimate cover for their evil. The US is run by such people.

[Jamastiene]

23. The prihcipal, at the Christian school I went to growing up, used an oak paddle.

It was about 4 inches wide and about 18 inches long. We were required to bend over and hold our ankles so as to stretch the skin and muscles across our butts and the back of our legs tight. That way the maximum pain could be inflicted with each paddle.

I got beaten daily at that place for 8 solid years for offenses as simple as going to the girls' bathroom in the church because the girls' bathroom in the school had been out of order for over a week. I was sick and tired of the teacher gossiping during our break and not giving the girls enough time to use the other bathroom. Only the boys were allowed bathroom break for 4 days straight because she spent the whole time talking and didn't leave any time to give the girls a chance to go.

Once I got beaten because the principal walked by my locker and I had a picture of Deborah Harry in my locker. It was the worst beating I ever got too. I was 11 years old at that time.

It was the last year I was at that place.

Believe it or not, I was one of the luckier girls, because I only got beatings. A lot of the other girls got molested by that principal.

I was so happy to leave that place and start going to public school.

I would rather go to Hell for eternity and get away from those Christians than ever set foot back in that place ever again. I would rather spend eternity in Hell than even ever see those Christians again, much less go back to that school, with or without them there.

[badgerpup]

70. At the junior high school I attended...

...they were allowed to use corporal punishment. There was a big oak paddle kept hanging on the wall of the Vice-principal's office for that sole purpose. It had a very central position...not quite 'trophy', but
"This is not a 'decoration' or empty threat. It is a TEACHING TOOL. Screw up, and you'll learn a lesson you won't forget in a hurry."
:hide:


One time, a kid stole my bike. I was really upset, crying and carrying on when I reported it to the VP, partly because my bike was gone...and partly because I knew I'd catch hell at home for being so careless as to have my (locked-up) bike swiped.
"Well, it COULDN'T have been locked up, now could it? Otherwise it wouldn't have been stolen!" :banghead:

ANYWAY...
The kid was busted and brought the bike back, and I knew he was going to get at least one swat from the VP. I asked for 'clemency' for him; told the VP I had my bike back, and that was all I really wanted...but no go.

I was lucky...the kid told me later that he wasn't mad at ME. He'd been standing right there when I asked the VP to please not punish him...and despite being a bike thief, he was big enough not to blame me for his sore ass.

Keep in mind the ages of people involved here...13, 14, and the lack of accountability one often comes across in this sort of situation.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

25. OMG! Each and every one of those "parents" should be arested for child abuse.

[redqueen]

34. +1

[madfloridian]

27. From 2006 Talk to Action's dogemperor tells of a child's death...

and the relation to this method of the Pearls.

From dogemperor's 2006 post:

Death by "chastening rod"

A few years ago, Lynn Paddock sought Christian advice on how to discipline her growing brood of adopted children.

Paddock -- a Johnston County mother accused of murdering Sean, her 4-year-old adopted son, and beating two other adopted children -- surfed the Internet, said her attorney, Michael Reece. She found literature by an evangelical minister and his wife who recommended using plumbing supply lines to spank misbehaving children.

Paddock ordered Michael and Debi Pearl's books and started spanking her adopted children as suggested. After Sean, the youngest of Paddock's six adopted children, died last month, his older sister and brother told investigators about Paddock's spankings.

Sean's 9-year-old brother was beaten so badly he limped, a prosecutor said. Bruises marred Sean's backside, too, doctors found.

Sean died after being wrapped so tightly in blankets he suffocated. That, too, was a form of punishment, Johnston County Sheriff Steve Bizzell said.

The Pearls' advice from their Web site: A swift whack with the plastic tubing would sting but not bruise. Give 10 licks at a time, more if the child resists. Be careful about using it in front of others -- even at church; nosy neighbors might call social workers. Save hands for nurturing, not disciplining. Heed the warning, taken from Proverbs in the Old Testament, that sparing the rod will spoil the child.

I am looking for the original article to which she links because the link in the post is dead.

[SemperEadem]

46. see, this is how one can tell that what they are doing is wrong

Be careful about using it in front of others -- even at church; nosy neighbors might call social workers.

If you have to hide anything, you are in the wrong. If right is so on your side, you can bust out your sewer pipe and beat the living shit out of your child on the front steps of the police station.

This is how we know that what they advocate is wrong on every front.

The fact of the matter is: this sadistic fuck murdered someone else's children because she was not fit to be a parent in the first place.

[madfloridian]

50. "Be careful about using it in front of others -- nosy neighbors might call social workers."

Yes. that part stood out for me right away.

[elehhhhna]

61. reminds me of mom wielding the frikkin hotwheels track

The Orange Avenger

[arcadian]

94. I got the belt from my mom.

Metal end.

[undeterred]

28. And what diameter should the "switch" that husbands use on their wives be?

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

29. Their website. Has videos and articles about good and evil.

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/

[Nikki Stone1]

31. Is is just me or is a small pet sleeping on the furry cover of a toilet seat NOT that big a deal?

When you need to use the toilet, you just get them off then. I know a friend of mine has a cat who sleeps on the toilet and when he needs to go to the bathroom, he just nudges the cat and the cat knows to get off. The cat returns later. No harm, no foul.

[proudohioan]

37. No, it's not just you.

I don't find a dog sleeping on a toilet seat anything to go ballistic over, either!

[TrogL]

108. Everything in their life must exactly follow exact rules

I grew up in an authoritarian household.

Everything had to exactly, yes exactly in its place.

In my bedroom, the logical place for the garbage can would be either next to my bed to throw Kleenexes used during my nightly nosebleeds, or next to my desk for detrius from my homework.

Nope. Nothing would do (you'll hear that phrase over and over, especially when they're projecting that attitude on us) but it had to be way off in the corner inaccessible from either location.

If the dog is supposed to be there, the dog will be there or it's the end of the fucking universe or something.

[get the red out]

72. Dobson had the need to beat the hell out of something

Dobson had the need to beat the hell out of something and that poor dog was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sick monster. :mad:

[xxqqqzme]

85. I wish the animal curled up on the toilet seat cover

I tire of taking the lint roller to the chair before I sit down.

[a la izquierda]

89. My 65 pound dog takes up half my damned bed...

and hell if he's going to move when I want him to. I sleep around him. My puppy shares my husband's pillow.

[madfloridian]

120. I know, our dogs thought the beds were theirs as well.

And the cats always loved the toilet seat covers.

[varelse]

124. That's because you're not a control freak

I can't even imagine living with these people. They would not live for long.

[Th1onein]

32. These are sick, SICK people.

They would treat all of society the same, if we let them. Instead of tree branches, they would use guillotines and hangman's nooses, though.

I don't know how these people can call themselves "Christian."

[BlancheSplanchnik]

159. guillotines and nooses

and then, they would CROW about the BEAUTY of it all.


the Pearls and their ilk are just breathtakingly sick, twisted and evil.

[liberal_at_heart]

33. I have a strong willed daughter and it has not been easy on me

It has not been easy as a parent to raise a strong willed daughter. There have been times when she has questioned my authority and there have been times when I have had to reassert my authority as the parent, but I wouldn't have her any other way. It's who she is and I love her. I would never try to break her just so my job as a parent would be easier.

[proudohioan]

36. Are you serious???? IS THIS FOR REAL???

Are people actually "rearing" children in this manner??? And torturing babies with tempting objects and then beating them???? C'mon, this had GOT to be some kind of a sick joke!!???

[madfloridian]

39. Yes, it's real. Their website with articles and videos.

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/

[proudohioan]

49. OMG I'm truly afraid to watch that one!!!!!

That is just so sick and deranged!!!!!! Those parents should be sterilized, as well as having their children taken away...... these are NOT the Middle Ages, or hasn't anyone bothered to tell that to those sick fucks????

[SemperEadem]

38. this is a blueprint for child abuse--nothing more, nothing less

and anyone who subscribes to these barbaric methods should be steralized so they don't have any more children that they can't handle... because that is the bottom line here--they can't handle what they produce, so they want to believe that god to gave them permission to beat the shit out of their children.

Taking a tree switch and using it to basically cane a 4 month old is beyond cruelty.

[LeftishBrit]

42. That's sickening

Anyone who treats an animal like that, let alone a child, should be arrested for cruelty.

And apart from the intrinsic evil of such actions, children who are treated in this way are more likely to become violent themselves. It is quite the reverse of good training.

[Kalyke]

44. Apparently the state of Tennessee's Department of Human Services

began investigating them in 2008.

I'm still searching for details on the outcome of that investigation (I've found some sources, but not any I would call reliable).

[Pithlet]

53. I hope they were brought up on charges. I've known about them since my parenting message board days.

There were a few parents on one of the boards who followed these people and read their books (huge flamewars as you can imagine on the subject). Right wing nuts love these people.

[secondwind]

47. Where is Children's Services??? Why aren't they reported to the authorities, and this book

SHOULD BE BANNED.......

[nightrain]

48. so, be the compassionate, loving, and empathic change you want to see (even on DU)

[Betty]

51. this book sounds like kiddie S &M porn

how can it even be legal to purchase such a book?

[Initech]

52. Isn't this method how serial killers created?

:yoiks:

[gkhouston]

58. My thoughts exactly. n/t

[redqueen]

76. I thought Initech was joking... as I'm sure we all know, most kids who are beaten

do not become serial killers.

[gkhouston]

78. True enough, but the lack of empathy so characteristic of sociopaths often

seems to be a result of early childhood abuse. Not every beaten child is a sociopath, and not every sociopath becomes a serial killer, but if I wanted to create a really fucked up adult, I'd buy a copy of the Pearls' book and follow it to the letter.

[Initech]

122. This is torture, this isn't just simple child-rearing.

[Matariki]

54. PERVERTS

non-consensual perverts.

[sasquatch]

55. It sounds like the ministry of love from 1984

[madfloridian]

56. Some quotes from "pro-spanking" authors:

"Excerpts from specific authors:

Dr. James Dobson, is a child psychologist and founder of the fundamentalist Christian agency, Focus on the Family. In his Reference Guide, he recommended that babies younger than 15 months should not be spanked. He wrote:
bullet "There is no excuse for spanking babies or children younger than 15 to 18 months of age. But midway through the second year (18 months) boys and girls become capable of knowing what your telling them to do or not do."
bullet "If children cry for longer than five minutes, "the child is merely complaining...I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears." 12

According to a year 2004 ruling by the Supreme Court of Canada, any corporal punishment of a child under the age of 24 months is a criminal act of child abuse. Canadians should beware of implementing Dr. Dobson's recommendations fully.

Ronald Williams of the Believers Baptist Church in Winona Lake, IN, wrote:

"One thing is certain, correction with the rod should and must start very early. In fact, correction with the rod should start much earlier than our contemporary godless and irresponsible society believes is normative....What is the tool of the condition in this passage?...It is variously defined as a rod, a staff, a scepter, or a wand. In short, a rod is an instrument strong enough to be used in a session of correction so that it will not be broken. It also lends itself to inflicting pain on the posterior of the child, but it is not so constructed as to break bones or tear flesh!...A rod in most cases is probably a wooden paddle used for spanking the buttock....Although a hand may have to be used in an emergency session of correction, this is not what the Lord had in mind. Your hand cannot do an effective job of correcting since you will inflict about as much pain on your hand as you will on the child's buttock. Your hand should represent love and affection, not correction. The Lord prefers this inanimate object called the rod." 13

Dennis Finnan of The World, the Word & You! radio program stated:

"Today with the abandonment of discipline encouraged by the elite secular thinkers, the rise in juvenile delinquency has exploded. The American Bar Association reports that juvenile crime involving criminal violence and death by guns and drugs, has all but clogged the nation's courts with children involved, as young as twelve years of age."

"What has caused this massive rebellion to authority, and out of control rage of children? The answer is, THE ABSENCE OF LOVING CORPORAL DISCIPLINE BY THEIR PARENTS DURING THE FORMATIVE YEARS. Many a life of sin and shame is simply the outgrowth of a life without any discipline, without any rebuke and without reproof. Now I realize, that there are many voices out there with all kinds of advice. But let me take you to the place of tried wisdom and knowledge, where you won't go wrong if you follow its advice. That place of authority and wisdom is the Bible my friend, for God's Word has never proven itself wrong, and has always blessed those who followed its teaching regarding rearing children. ..."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin3.htm

[Odin2005]

92. Sick, sick people.

:puke:

[laundry_queen]

144. Even an 18 month old can remember a 'spanking'.

I was raised by an authoritarian father. While he didn't 'beat' us, we were spanked regularly for whatever pissed him off in the moment. We were expected to obey, immediately and unquestioningly. I was no more than 18 months (so says my mom) and I had just received a new pack of crayons. While I was there coloring in my book on the floor, I broke one in half by accident. I realized where I had just been holding one crayon, now there were 2! So I started breaking each crayon in 2 so I could have MORE crayons! I remember being so thrilled I had discovered this - that I could 'create' more! The next thing I know my dad noticed what I was doing and freaked out. I got a few good hard whacks and got sent to my crib, in the dark. Normally I had a night light but I guess putting me in the dark was meant to teach me a lesson or something. I was hysterically crying for my mom. I was hyperventilating. I thought, in my little mind, that they had put me there to die or something, as no one came in for a long time. Finally my mom came in and I tried to explain to her that I didn't mean to break them, but even though I had been speaking clearly and in full sentences since I was 1, I couldn't convey what I meant, plus I was so upset I couldn't even talk. Then my dad got angry with my mom for spoiling me, and made her leave. When I started shrieking when she left, my dad came in and gave me a few more whacks - you know "You want something to cry about, I'll give you something to cry about...". I don't remember much of what happened after that. I just remember crying and crying and crying and no one coming.

I also know, that from that point on, I never truly trusted my parents. I spent the rest of my childhood walking on eggshells. I harbored deep distrust toward my parents and a lot of resentment. It was not a good way to grow up. My parents have changed and cringe and apologize whenever I tell them I remember that incident, and I do love them. They love me, and told me that often growing up. Hugs were never scarce in our house - probably the reason I didn't end up a sociopath or something worse. But that moment still scarred me for life.

Now that I have kids, I cannot imagine, in my wildest dreams, how sick parents have to be to inflict that kind of pain on purpose - the kind advocated in these books. I truly believe that it is a recipe for evil. Kids become either sociopaths, authoritarians themselves, or they end up messed up emotionally, like I was for so many years. I'm proud to say I have never spanked my kids, and so far so good, all do well in school and I am complemented on their behavior often. I wanted my kids to grow up to feel unconditionally loved and accepted NO MATTER WHAT, I wanted them to have NO doubt in their mind whatsoever that I would ever want to harm them. Because, growing up with someone who you must depend on, yet are never sure when they will lash out and hurt you, fucks you up for life.

[jenniferj]

59. In the UK James Dobson would be prosecuted for cruelty to animals

and beating a child with anything that leaves a mark is too..http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4175905.stm..

[Shallah Kali]

63. At least one child was killed by a parent following the Pearl's teachings - link

Death by "chastening rod"
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/3/16/132347/107/Diary/Death_by_quot_chastening_rod_quot_

I had the very unfortunate experience this morning of reading, via the following news article http://web.archive.org/web/20060404235849/http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/418676.html , of a death directly attributed to childrearing methods promoted by dominionist child-rearing authors Michael and Debbie Pearl--who operate a website called No Greater Joy and who have published several books.

These books and online guides are nothing more or less than a guide to religiously motivated child abuse--as even the state of Tennessee and numerous child welfare agencies have testified.

And the Pearls, sadly, are by no means alone at promoting this. In fact, in the more hardline dominionist community--the same ones promoting "deliverance ministry"--it's all too common.

snip

If that's not enough, the Pearls literally advocate yanking the hair of tiny four-month-old babies for being a bit rough in nursing even as they attempt to defend the very manuals that have gotten them prosecuted for child abuse (yes, the Pearls have been investigated by the State of Tennessee for child abuse, as will be noted below):

For example, if a 3 month-old nursing baby bites, don't spank. She does not know she did bad. Just gently pull a hair on her head. She will startle back in momentary discomfort and immediately start nursing again. The tiny bit of discomfort makes the baby relate the biting down with the gentle pulling of the hair. You have not made her obey, you have only conditioned her to respond differently. That is training.


(The same article also refers to "popping the leg" of a thirteen-week-old infant not being quite so effective--the fact that it's mentioned at ALL is disturbing. This was in regards, incidentially, to a letter from a concerned reader who had noted that kids raised strictly by the Pearls' methods had literally lost "the spark of life". Very similar things have been reported by people who've been tortured or severely abused.)

Please visit the above link ( http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/3/16/132347/107/Diary/Death_by_quot_chastening_rod_quot_ ) for the entire article with hotlinks to source material. It is written by dogemperor ( http://www.talk2action.org/user/dogemperor or http://dogemperor.dailykos.com/ ) who is a survivor or religiously motivated child abuse herself and so unfortunately knows whereof she speaks :(

Dead child's mom sought discipline tips
Lynn Paddock ordered books by a minister and his wife that recommended using pipe to spank kids
http://web.archive.org/web/20060404235849/http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/418676.html

a Johnston County mother accused of murdering Sean, her 4-year-old adopted son, and beating two other adopted children -- surfed the Internet, said her attorney, Michael Reece. She found literature by an evangelical minister and his wife who recommended using plumbing supply lines to spank misbehaving children.

Paddock ordered Michael and Debi Pearl's books and started spanking her adopted children as suggested. After Sean, the youngest of Paddock's six adopted children, died last month, his older sister and brother told investigators about Paddock's spankings.

Sean's 9-year-old brother was beaten so badly he limped, a prosecutor said. Bruises marred Sean's backside, too, doctors found.

Sean died after being wrapped so tightly in blankets he suffocated. That, too, was a form of punishment, Johnston County Sheriff Steve Bizzell said.

snip

The Pearls acknowledge that discipline turns to abuse when the "child is broken in spirit, cowed and subdued ..."

[Shallah Kali]

67. More including link to Salon article on the Pearls

Salon Magazine article on dominionist child abuse
By dogemperor Thu May 25, 2006 at 12:43:51 PM EST http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/25/124351/919


I have been writing a small series so far on one of the dirtier and less-well-known secrets of dominionism--that of religiously motivated child abuse within the dominionist community:

Death by "chastening rod" http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/3/16/132347/107

Take action: stop sale of baby-beating books! http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/3/21/115346/127

Another sad case of dominionist child abuse http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/4/13/101336/724

A followup re the Pearls' dominionist child abuse http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/4/30/133030/205

Kid beaten by minister for reporting abuse http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/12/16189/4426

It is a subject I have a particular interest in, largely because I myself am a survivor of religiously motivated child abuse; it's also an issue that is becoming of increasing concern by groups such as Stop The Rod (which includes excerpts from a number of "chastening manuals" aimed at the dominionist community, and which was originally founded by a Christian homeschooler mom who was gravely concerned about the promotion of these manuals in "Christian homeschool" support groups).

As it turns out, it's no longer survivors (like me) and concerned moms (like the person who runs Stop The Rod) who are speaking out. Salon Magazine http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/05/25/the_pearls/ is now publishing an article on one of the more infamous offenders--Michael and Debi Pearl--and on religiously motivated child abuse in general.


The article starts out with the story of Meggan Judge, who was a former user of the Pearls' techniques until she had a case of post-partum depression--and realised the techniques were inherently abusive and dangerous.

[Harry Monroe]

66. These people should not be allowed to "breed" period.

What they are advocating is child abuse, pure and simple. And the authorities/Child Protective Services should have been called in on this LONG AGO!! I'm sick to my stomach after reading this!!

[get the red out]

68. This is the mentality we face from the right

We can argue constantly on DU about various topics, but when it comes right down to it this is the kind of thinking we face on the right. Fundamentalist Christians are vicious, mean, heartless, perverted abusers; and we need to remember that. We do have to worry about the Taliban in our midst no matter what anyone thinks of Afghanistan, the Christian Taliban. And the biggest problem is that the media will not say anything to out them because they are scared to death to come off as "anti-religion". Accepting child abuse isn't showing tolerance, these people are vile and cruel and operate like robots, no reasoning ability.

Fundamentalist Christians are the base of the Republican Party.

[Sapphocrat]

77. "Let the child realize that you are simply representing God in the execution of the punishment."

Worth the whole read for context: Jack Hyles

Everyone should be horrified, but no one should be surprised; it's the classic mindset of these sick fucks.

[Canuckistanian]

79. May God spare my children from.... their children

These kids are going to grow up to be the meanest sons of bitches you've ever seen.

I hope some day the Pearls are sent away for life - and I hope their kids are the ones who testify against them.

[ima_sinnic]

81. just further proof that the earth will be better off without the asshole species Homo sapiens

and its utterly ridiculous, craven stupidity.

Humanity will never progress as long as children are abused, leading to a continued, unending cycle; of violence, mental illness, and suffering. Let the earth throw off the ignorant, deluded parasites, the human beings, in the global climate change cataclysm and go on in its own harmony for another billion or more years.

on edit: spelling correx

[TheMightyFavog]

83. Read Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement for more info.

Scary stuff.

[Shallah Kali]

86. Link it on Google Books & a link to a blog of ex-Quiverfull members

No Longer Quivering
http://nolongerquivering.com

review of the book on No Longer Quivering
http://nolongerquivering.com/2009/03/25/quiverfull-inside-the-christian-patriarchy-movement-a-review/

Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement
By Kathryn Joyce
http://books.google.com/books?id=WhhCQY_7sogC

A journalist's investigation of a Christian Right movement in which women put their fertility in the service of a patriarchal culture war

Fundamentalist Christianity may lose some access to power in the next election, but it has long-term plans. In this fascinating look at the new generation of fundamentalist Christian women, journalist Kathryn Joyce introduces us to the world of the patriarchy movement and Quiverfull families. Here, in direct and conscious opposition to feminist calls for marital equity, women live within stringently enforced doctrines of wifely submission and male headship. Instead of raising independent daughters, these Christians advocate a return to keeping daughters at home—and out of college—until their marriage to a suitor approved by Dad. To counter reproductive rights, they eschew all contraception in favor of the Quiverfull philosophy of letting God give them as many children as possible—families of twelve and more children that will, they hope, enable them to win the religious and culture wars through demographic means.

Quiverfull is a fascinating examination of the twenty-first-century women and men who proclaim self-sacrifice and submission as model virtues of womanhood—and as warfare on behalf of Christ.

"Kathryn Joyce's well-researched book delivers much more than a quiverfull of understanding about this movement that twists religion to justify keeping women barefoot, pregnant, and powerless. It's also a stark reminder why those who value reproductive justice must actively engage in politics and the public debate."
—Gloria Feldt, author of The War on Choice, Blogger at Heartfeldt Politics, former president, Planned Parenthood Federation of America

"'Prairie muffins,' hayrides, and babies -- lots of babies -- don't sound like the stuff of fanaticism, but in Quiverfull Kathryn Joyce brings us the news from the most militant frontier of fundamentalism -- a patriarchy movement' of right-wing women who embrace a caricature of 19th century womanhood as a strategy for culture war. At turns funny, terrifying, and heartbreaking, Quiverfull is a necessary book, an empathetic and brilliant analysis of how this small group of believers shape mainstream ideas about motherhood, marriage, sex and gender."
—Jeff Sharlet, author of The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power

'Arrows for the War'
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20061127/joyce/single

Lives such as these: Janet Wolfson is a 44-year-old mother of eight in Canton, Georgia. Tracie Moore, a 39-year-old midwife who lives in southern Kentucky, is mother to fourteen. Wendy Dufkin in Coxsackie has her thirteen. And while Jamie Stoltzfus, a 27-year-old Illinois mom, has only four children so far, she plans on bearing enough to populate "two teams." All four mothers are devoted to a way of life New York Times columnist David Brooks has praised as a new spiritual movement taking hold among exurban and Sunbelt families. Brooks called these parents "natalists" and described their progeny as a new wave of "Red-Diaper Babies"--as in "red state."

But Wolfson, Moore and thousands of mothers like them call themselves and their belief system "Quiverfull." They borrow their name from Psalm 127: "Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their enemies in the gate." Quiverfull mothers think of their children as no mere movement but as an army they're building for God.

Secret Lives of Women on WEtv: Born to Breed (Quiverfull)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6987587

The above documentary/show on youtube 1st of 6 parts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-WoEAkhkps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psIINNXI6sg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeLfrYZJJTI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDfqh21kRAA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHCNCFQ1g8c&feature=related

[mnhtnbb]

84. wrong thread. oops

[chatnoir]

87. Three months old? A 12lb dog?

Nothing less than child and animal abuse.

This is absolutely beyond belief and seriously sick shit.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

88. If one of the Pearls' children flips off and kills them

I will buy a bottle of champagne and celebrate. You can quote me on that.

[bergie321]

116. I would

Contribute to that defense fund.

[FiveGoodMen]

90. This is the 'faith' that wants to write America's laws

If that's how they treat their children (and dogs) how will they treat those of us who disagree??

All the middle-eastern terrorists in the world will never be the threat to America that god-damned, mother-fucking, satan's-cock-sucking fundie xtians are.

They are the most evil thing on the planet.

They are the closest thing to the Devil that actually exists.

[EstimatedProphet]

93. They're re-raising the Phelps family

Look up the book "addicted To Hate" if you haven't seen it. This is exactly the way Phelps raised his monstrous family.

[arcadian]

95. Send them a note people!

Let them know sick they are:

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/footer-menu/contact-us/general/

[winyanstaz]

114. done and done....

They make me so furious I could spit.

[Danger Mouse]

96. Is this legal? Seriously? Is this somehow legal?

Because how the fuck can that be legal?

[redqueen]

97. The "it's okay to swat, though" camp makes it harder to enforce child abuse laws.

These people know they're going way beyond what most people consider an acceptable level of spanking children, so they're careful to toe the line, and only cross it in private.

If spanking were illegal across the board, this would be much easier to prevent.

[amb123]

98. "And if the Child dies during the punishment, IT'S GOD'S WILL!"

Parent's who beat their children should themselves be beaten in public! Sick F**ks all of them!

[Stevenmarc]

99. One of these days the Pearls might have to go to a home, and it will be up to the kids, good luck .

[MerryBlooms]

100. Horrifying. n/t

.

[mopinko]

101. well, i think these methods are proven to achieve their goal-

to turn an thinking, emotional little animal into an automaton authoritarian follower.

[Shell Beau]

102. This is mind boggling. There isn't much reasoning with a baby/infant.

How on God's green earth can someone think it is ok to hit an infant with a switch or anything for that matter????? This is child abuse. What a sick bastard.

[sakabatou]

104. Child abuse for sure

[kestrel91316]

107. How is it possible that this book is even in print? People here on DU have

told me that ANY SPANKING AT ALL is completely illegal in all 50 states because it always constitutes physical abuse. ( I wouldn't know personally, having no children of my own)

[Shallah Kali]

110. For Your Own Good Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence by Alice Miller

http://www.nospank.net/fyog.htm

[Shallah Kali]

111. Flogging for God: Violence toward children under the guise of religion

http://www.nospank.net/floggers.htm

scroll down a bit for the Dobson section


one particular link:

THE KING OF PAIN
Chapter 6 of Republican Gomorrah by Max Blumenthal
http://www.nospank.net/dobson1.htm

Philip Greven, a professor of history at Rutgers University and a leading expert on Protestant religious thought, is one of the few researchers of American conservatism who has recognized the impact of corporal punishment on the sensibility of movement members. In his incisive book Spare the Child: The Religious Roots of Punishment and the Psychological Impact of Physical Abuse, Greven analyzed Dare to Discipline in detail, concluding that Dobson's violent child-rearing methods served an underlying purpose, producing droves of activists embarked on an authoritarian mission.

"The persistent 'conservatism' of American politics and society is rooted in large part in the physical violence done to children," Greven wrote. "The roots of this persistent tilt towards hierarchy, enforced order, and absolute authority — so evident in Germany earlier in this century and in the radical right in America today — are always traceable to aggression against children's wills and bodies, to the pain and the suffering they experience long before they, as adults, confront the complex issues of the polity, the society, and the world."

But the infliction of pain on young children, social deviants, and other weaker beings is only one half of a binary solution Dobson has prescribed to his followers for curing America's social ills. As Dobson has consistently made clear to his flock, they must first purify their own souls of sin before striking out, literally, to purify the land.

Dobson's self-purification process, adapted from his father's Nazarene faith, compels his followers to confess their darkest transgressions before pleading for forgiveness. Finally, to attain what Dobson and others in the evangelical culture call "holiness," a permanent state of spiritual perfection, followers must submit their individual wills to the order of a higher power — either God, or men of God such as Dobson. Every sinner who submits must be convinced that, as Dobson has insisted, "Pain is a marvelous purifier."

Dobson's emphasis on pain, simultaneously inflicted on weaker beings and the self, reflects the sadomasochism at the core of his philosophy. As Greven noted, books such as Dare to Discipline that urge parents to beat their children are hardly distinguishable from S&M manuals such, as Larry Townsend's "The Leatherman's Handbook,'' which advise men on erotic techniques of "discipline" and "punishment." The principal distinction between the two is that the methods Townsend advocates are applied to adults who have chosen to participate, whereas Dobson's techniques are wielded against the wills of small children.

[BrklynLiberal]

112. Direct descendants of those who initiated the Inquisition, if you ask me.

So sick that it might even be illegal.

[winyanstaz]

113. This is abuse and torture of babies....

Arrest these criminals NOW...How in the world are they not being brought up on trial of child abuse when they are confessing to it>?

[mzmolly]

115. Absolutely disgusting.

:puke:

[KakistocracyHater]

121. out of the mainstream, it's worsening. I hate "tradition"

"And then there are the blogs. If you haven't already started to suspect this from the glossary -- which, for instance, defines "maintenance spanking" as "spankings given in regular intervals for the purpose of maintaining a submissive mindset in a wife, correcting minor faults, and/or reinforcing marital roles" -- the blogs are where it becomes clear that at least some couples who practice CDD are not talking about "discipline"; they're talking about discipline, in ways that, not uncoincidentally, echo those who support spanking as the proper way to "train up" a child"

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2007/08/22/christian_discipline

http://christiandomesticdiscipline.com/

..."What is CDD?

A Domestic Discipline (DD) marriage is one in which one partner is given authority over the other, and has the means to back up that authority, usually by spanking. The application and practise of DD in each marriage is as unique as the individuals who make up that marriage. There is no "One Ring of Power" in the Domestic Discipline world, to which all DD couples must bow; no singular path to "true DD enlightenment". What works well for one DD couple may not be a good fit for another marriage. Therefore, you may see many different suggestions espoused on this site and elsewhere.

A Christian Domestic Discipline (CDD) marriage is simply a traditional, male-led, Christian marriage which utilises aspects of Domestic Discipline. It is set up according to Biblical standards.

Therefore, in a CDD marriage, the husband is the authority of the household.
The wife is submissive to her husband as if the Lord Himself was her husband.

The husband is to love his wife as himself, and as Christ loved the church. He is to be a servant, and leads by example. He is to lay down his life for her.
The wife is to reverence her husband. She is to obey him, so long as his instructions are not in opposition to God's commands.

He has the ultimate authority in his household, but this authority is tempered with the knowledge that he will answer to God for his actions and decisions. The final decision rests with him, and therefore, the final responsibility, whatever the outcome, is his to bear. A wise husband will not make a major decision without prayerfully asking God for wisdom, and without seeking his wife's counsel."...

..."This style of traditional male-led Christian marriage may seem unusual in today's "modern", liberal, politically correct, anti-God culture. This unholy culture, with its radically selfish feminism, and wholesale bias against true manhood, launches relentless attacks against traditional Christian family values. (Keep in mind, this is also the culture with well over 50% divorce rates, both in the church and in the secular world. Most rational people would agree the "modern" way doesn't work so well!)

Romans 12:2 says, And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God. Here, Paul warns us not to live like the world, not to be fashioned like them, or molded to the same pattern as they are, but to be changed. Strong's Concordance says, "literally or figuratively "metamorphose".

The traditional male-led Christian marriage has been practised throughout history and is still practised in many parts of the world today. Our American friends, for example, need only look back to the era just prior to the 1960's. Domestic Discipline was a widely accepted premise, oft seen in films at the cinema, programmes on the telly, and many companies showed it in advertisments. If you prefer not to utilise "modern, popular culture" as a guide, consider that DD also has quite a long history as a common literary theme, dating back hundreds of years, from several cultures worldwide. "....

[mzmolly]

126. Off to

vomit some more. BLECH!

[get the red out]

133. This really needs more exposure

I have tried to expose this crap, and their blogs, on various liberal message boards and people just want to dismiss it as a little consensual sex play. It is not, all you have to do is read the blogs where women talk about committing some small offense and dreading the belt from their husband, this isn't just kinky pleasure, it is mental, physical, and emotional abuse institutionalized into these women from birth. And would they be able to stand up against the abuse of their children? No, they would facilitate it, it is their place to do so, they don't know they are human and have rights themselves.

This is evil, we ignore it as risk to society and women everywhere. Over and over people on DU scold us when we are angry with other cultures for treating women like this, none of our business some say, well what about women being abused right here at home? Can we call that our business? And their defenseless children that are beaten as a matter of course?

I think you could put torture and murder under the "tradition" of some branch of Christianity in this country and easily get by with it. Tradition is evil, it totally eliminates legal rights and human rights, even here. Tradition is the solvent for human rights, dissolves them every time.

[KakistocracyHater]

161. agreed, it's why I post excerpts so people can read it

it really is awful. They are breaking their children's spirits & they use the word 'love' & twist it into something obscene. The salon article a person put up has it, roughly' after 8 or 10 licks the(child's anger/rebellion)turns into a gush of love'-wtf? That is not love, it's fear. To the fundies(of all stripes) there seems to be no difference between fear & love.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

123. I wonder if the people on THIS board who want to use military force on

everyone and everything, to the point of "nuking Afghanistan" were raised by these types of parents.

Child abuse can have a number of results, but one of them is a sort of Stockholm syndrome identification with the abuser and the development of an angry control freak personality.

Another possible result is an adult who has no self-respect at all and lets others walk all over him/her.

[Devil_Fish]

127. my daughter is 4 mo. old. any one who takes a switch to a baby for any reason should be jailed.

What they are advocating is at the least child abuse, Probably domestic violence, and should be prosicuted as such. If the Pearls have children, CPS should take them away.

I can't imagine hiting my daughter for any reason. their excuse that the bible advocates this is intolerable. the bible also says that if a child swears at his parents he shall be put to death. the bible says adultrers shall be put to death. the bible says a lot of things that should not be applied at all in todays society, or even in society when it was written.

it is this type of thinking that leeds a 23 y.o. to shoot his 9 mo. old in the head and justify it by saying he was in a fight with his g.f.

this is BULL SHIT. I AM SICK OF IT. These lower then low lifes belong in jail. I hope they do leave loaded guns around the house so that their kids can shoot them the next time they take off their belt. Fuck.

:grr:

[jgraz]

128. Mommy and Daddy Mengele

:puke:

[BreweryYardRat]

129. This goes past "barbarism" and into "inhuman."

If I go into detail about what these ape-people deserve, I'll get tombstoned.

[GreenPartyVoter]

131. Those are some very twisted people

[MadMaddie]

132. Why isn't the government investigating these people like they did

Koresh? Or the Mormons abusing their children?

This is a cult that obviously is dangerous to children.

[DWilliamsamh]

134. This explains a lot...

I always wondered how conservative assholes could deny the evidence of their experience, in favor of the doctrine of their authority figures. This is it - the use of pain to subjugate literally from the cradle. Life long torture. No wonder they were all creaming in their pants over the Abu Ghraib photos.

Disgusting.

My most recent example:

I am a biker. On one of the forums I frequent, someone posted a "gubmint" hating rant about how the evil feds are about to up the maximum concentration of ethanol to 15% in gasoline. Now there were a fair number of folks who basically said calm the hell down, I have been running 10% in my bike for a while and it works fine. There was some rational discussion of the loss of mileage due to the lower combustion energy inherent in ethanol mixed gas vs. pure gasoline. When you only have five gallons of gas - miles per tank is a very important factor. But were are also a fair number of "I hate ethanol mixed gas because the government (the liberals more specifically) are making me use it, no matter what the facts are" responses as well. There was one guy who literally said, "I have been running it in my bike with no problems for over a year, but I just don't like it."

Don't get me wrong I am not advocating ethanol - I am mixed in my opinion but I like the lowered emissions. It is the " I don't care what the facts are" mindset that I can't stand.

Talk about a concrete example of ignoring ones OWN EXPERIENCES to toe the literal "party line." God help us their are a lot of these folks out there and it sounds like with the number of books the Pearls are selling, they are about the business of making more. And the Pearls are just ONE source of this crap.

[Diclotican]

135. madfloridian

madfloridian

At eleven o'clock that night, I told Siggie to go get into his bed, which is a permanent enclosure in the family room. For six years I had given him that order at the end of each day, and for six years Siggie had obeyed.
"On this occasion, however, he refused to budge. You see, he was in the bathroom, seated comfortably on the furry lid of the toilet seat. That is his favorite spot in the house, because it allows him to bask in the warmth of a nearby electric heater..."

...""What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt. I am embarrassed by the memory of the entire scene. Inch by inch I moved him toward the family room and his bed. As a final desperate maneuver, Siggie backed into the corner for one last snarling stand. I eventually got him to bed, only because I outweighed him 200 to 12!"

DAM.. He should be sooooooo happy he was not doing something like that if I had been in the room.. I would have beaten the living daylight out of him.. Beaten a dog just for the fun of it.. That is what this was. He was doing this because of the fun of it. And because he COULD do it.. Try doing that to a Rotwailer, an Doberman and something your own size.. This man is a dam Coward, a slicy coward who should have been treated the same way he treat his dog... To beat a dob... A tiny dog like this Dachs is just.... Disgusting

I see myself as an cristian, but I would NEVER try to beat my children - when the time comes to obey what I meant to be true. i would try to learn them, it the right way, by example in my own life. Not by beating them to be afraid of me, and to be afraid of every move I do... This is no good way of teach children to love, and to be complete humans... This is wrong in so many levels that I can't express it in english either...

You can discipline a children, a dog, a cat any animals on this planet without the use of violence.. I have had many animals over the years, specially cats who is very strong willed, and who doesn't budgde for everything.. I learned them what to do inside the house, even without one hand slapping their body.. Some Will say I maybe is weird, because I tend to talk to the cats when they do things they are not supposed to do inside the house.. Instead of yelling at them, and instead of hitting them, to scare them I sit down, calmy and talk to them as they was intelligent beings, capable of understanding what I would them to do... In most cases the cats tend to at least understand that this was a screw up they doesn't want to do twice.. And the whole thing happened without one single hitting or anything bad hep pend.. And all the cats I have had had been lovely, nice cats who doesn't tear down the home.. Even the time I had kitten they tear down the house.. And they was tree small devils if you ask me:)

Even when I was "baby-sitting" a dog, who run away from me, most because he sent a female dog in heat... After 3 hour he got back, I was worried sick about what to do.. He then discovered me, and was afraid of the mother of all yelling.. I calmy put him to an another room for a hour, so I could calm down.. Then I sat down with the dog, and told him calmy, in my best voice what I expected about him as long as I was guarding him... He looked at me, with his brown ayes, and was understanding very well what I told him.. Maybe not the words, but the voice... And the rest of the evening he was soooooooooooooo sorry and was doing all he managed to be accepted again... Well when I got to bed we was good friends again... He never ever forgot that I instead of yelling to him calmy talked to him as he was my peer, and one time some time later, that he was free, he stooped in his tracks, because he remembered that I was not bad to him.. And then I could catch him again...

And if you worried about the female dog in heat.. Well I guess he got his poppies Boise a couple of years later I was seeing a dog who looked very similar to the dog I was "babysitting"... And he was a rather distinctive dog to say at least..

Diclotican

[Shallah Kali]

136. "Lisa Welchel (yes, folks, Blair from "The Facts of Life" likes to use Tabasco as a discipline aid"

Dominionism and child abuse, part 2
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/14/114136/732/786/371430



Lisa Welchel is probably best known (in the non-dominionist world, anyways) for her role as Blair Warner in the television show "The Facts Of Life".

In the dominionist parenting community, though, she's also known for her book "Creative Correction".

That book--also featured on Stop The Rod http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html --could be better described as "101 Ways To Torment The Living Hell Out Of Your Kids".

Whilst some of the suggestions aren't as extreme as those promoted by the likes of the Tripps or Pearls or Gothard (or even James Dobson), she does incorporate some pretty bizarre things in her books:

a)"Dear God, Thank you that my parents love me and that because they love me, they correct me when I sin. Thank you that the spankings drive out the foolishness in my heart." (p. 265, from a sample prayer for kids)
b) "Having a struggle at bedtime? Try this: Next time you’re dealing with the usual bathroom trips, cups of water, giggling, and talking, call off bedtime. Declare, ‘Nobody has to go to bed tonight!’ Inform them that they may stay up as long as they like—the operative words being stay up. Then have each child stand still in the middle of a separate room of the house." (pp. 143-144. Of note, sleep deprivation and forced standing in one position are two common torture tactics that are outlawed in most civilised countries--and which are noted to have been used at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.)
c) "As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them silly commands that they must obey without arguing, such as ‘Walk backward,’ or ‘Stop and touch your toes,’ or ‘Give me a kiss.’ Occasionally I’ll throw in a real command, like ‘Don’t touch that,’ or ‘No, you may not have an Icee.’ My favorite curve, however, is to say no to some reasonable request, like ‘May I go to the bathroom?’" (p. 138. Not allowing kids to use the bathroom when needed is abusive.)
d) "Two summers ago I drove with the kids, my mother, and my grandmother in a camper from California to Texas. My grandmother, ‘Nanny,’ asked me not to spank the children while on the trip because it upset her." (p. 157. This is rather telling; corporal punishment tended to be rather accepted by the "Greatest Generation" and earlier as a rite of passage, so it must have been a real "whuppin'" to upset 'Nanny'.)

[madfloridian]

137. I followed some of those links...very weird indeed.

That lady has problems.

[Papa Boule]

138. This is a vitally important subject. Thank you madfloridian.

Anyone who has read Alice Miller's books knows the persuasive connection she makes between traumatic child rearing in Germany and the rise of Nazism.

[madfloridian]

141. Thank you for that link. I was not aware of those writings.

Heading there to do some reading...or maybe tomorrow...getting late (early?)

[laundry_queen]

145. I read 'For Your Own Good' awhile back.

It helped me come to terms a bit with my own childhood, but at the same time, alarmed me because I have started to see so much of the same thing going on in the U.S. today.

[Shallah Kali]

152. Alice Miller's "For Your Own Good" is a must read. It can be read free here:

http://www.nospank.net/fyog.htm - She has kindly given permission for the entire text of that book to be posted there.

Also several of her books are partially posted on Google Books - http://books.google.com/books?q=alice%20miller&as_brr=3

[Manifestor_of_Light]

139. Alice Miller's books are about this abuse and the monsters produced.

Read also books by John Bradshaw, Ph.D. which go into these abusive child rearing methods and how they destroy children and produce people like Hitler, Stalin and their willing followers.



Publishers' summaries provided by Alice Miller.

The Body Never Lies - The Lingering Effects of Cruel Parenting
New York: W.W. Norton & Co., 2005.

World-renowned therapist Alice Miller has devoted a lifetime to studying the cruelties inflicted on children. In The Body Never Lies Miller goes further, investigating the long-range consequences of childhood abuse on the adult body.

Using numerous case histories gleaned from her practice, as well as examining the biographical stories of celebrated writers such as Marcel Proust, Virginia Woolf, Friedrich Nietzsche, and others, Miller shows how a child's emotional traumas, repressed humiliation, and bottled rage can manifest themselves as serious adult health problems. In discussing the lives of these literary giants, Miller explores the known or, in some cases, unknown traumas that haunted each author's childhood. More important, Miller connects the writers' painful childhoods with their later afflictions, which included depression, anorexia, cancer, and even insanity.

While examining everything from parental spanking to sexual abuse and emotional blackmail, Miller exposes the societal pressures that converge to harm children. She explains that we have so many societal mechanisms to prevent us from feeling anger or rage against our parents that we tend never to confront our own feelings. To combat the debilitating effects of such jarring and often contradictory emotions, Miller explores the benefits of using a therapist as an "Enlightened Witness" to reaffirm the patient's repressed reactions to a forgotten childhood experience.

Miller also discusses how institutionalized religion itself can contribute to the crushing guilt that prevents us from being healthy and conscious adults. She urges society to realize that the Fourth Commandment -"Honor thy father and thy mother"- offers immunity to abusive parents. Indeed, she argues, it is healthier not to extend forgiveness to parents whose tyrannical childrearing methods have resulted in unhappy, and often ruined, adult lives.

In a stirring rejection of the "Poisonous Pedagogy" that pardons even the most brutal parenting, Miller examines the cyclical nature of violence and abuse. Parents and guardians who abuse their children, both physically and mentally, leave them embarrassed and hurt. The inability of most children to properly express such feelings causes them to perpetuate the cycle by lashing out at their family, friends, and, above al1, their own children, who will inevitably do the same.

Throughout The Body Never Lies, Miller offers a calm and encouraging voice. Indeed, The Body Never Lies, through its illuminating and provocative insight, affords us a unique understanding of the immense healing powers of the adult self and the body.
=================

Alice Miller Booklist:
http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/booklist.html



=================


The Origins of Torture in Endured Child Abuse, by Alice Miller, Ph.D.
Excerpt:

In my recent book Die Revolte des K�rpers (The Body Never Lies) appeared in Germany in March 2004, I pointed out that in 22 American states children and adolescents can be beaten, humiliated, and sometimes exposed to outright sadism without this having any legal consequences. Such treatment is equivalent to genuine torture.

But it is not called so. It goes by the name of education, discipline, leadership. These practices are actively supported by most religions. There is no protest against it, except on some Internet websites. But the Internet is also full of advertisements for whips and other devices for punishing small children and making them into God-fearing individuals so that God will approve of them and give them His love.

The scandal in Iraq shows what becomes of these children when they reach adulthood. The perverted soldiers are the fruits of an education that actively instills violence, meanness, and perversion into young people.

================

[nikto]

140. If a child is beaten enough, he might become famous...

Famous like Ted Bundy, or even...



"Hitler's Cruelty Comes from the brutal beatings from his father during his Childhood
In Hitler's childhood, there were many beatings from his father, Alois Hitler. Waite stresses that these are important to the formation of Hitler's character:

How can one calculate the consequences of child beating? What psychological wounds scar the child's mind as he lies hurt in body and soul, sobbing and alone, battered by his own father and deserted by a noninterfering mother? The infant must learn to comfort himself; he can trust no one else; he is overwhelmed by terror, fear, rage, helplessness, hatred. Is it not possible that the hatred which Hitler later said was so important to his life was learned in childhood's rage - the helpless hatred that sobbed: 'If I were bigger, I would kill you'. Of such experiences, a prominent psychiatrist has said, are murderers made. Hitler would have agreed completely with American criminal Caryl Chessman, who recalled the brutal whippings of his childhood and concluded that 'there is nothing that sustains you like hate; it is better to be anything than to be afraid'. (p.137)"

http://www.hsse.nie.edu.sg/staff/blackburn/waitepsychopathicgod1.htm

[BlooInBloo]

142. "immediate", "happy", "obedient", "children"...

Choose any 3.

[TicketyBoo]

143. I don't understand

why people who have this attitude toward children would even want to have children.

Just sadists, I guess, and need someone to hurt.

When I think back to my beautiful little toddler, I can't imagine ever touching him without tenderness. I didn't need to "win." It was a "win" just having him.

[fortyfeetunder]

150. Yuk, this must be the follow-up to "Babywise"

another controversial Xtian infant rearing manual by Gray Ezzo. It introduces controversial feeding and sleeping scheduling for newborns. I remember the nurse-practicioners saying, walk away from that book!

[Shallah Kali]

153. Project NoSpank has a section of articles on Ezzo

go here and scroll down or use ctrl F to jump down to ezzo http://www.nospank.net/floggers.htm

[adamuu]

151. This article upsets me. n/t

[lightningandsnow]

154. Yeah, it really triggered me.

My mom didn't beat me, but she did occasionally slap me across the face when I was being bratty, overly emotional, or hard to deal with.

It only happened a few times, but it damaged me a lot.

[adamuu]

157. *hugs*

:pals:

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tandot]

156. This is disgusting. It is horrific to think anyone would spank a 3 month old baby.

Babies are curious and learn by exploring things.

"The authors advocate tempting an infant by putting an appealing object within reach and compare the object to the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden. ... When the child reaches for the object, the parents lash the child..."

Those parents need to be jailed for child abuse.

[Kitty Herder]

158. So a traumatized child is a good child?

It seems like such a child would be displaying learned helplessness like a rat that gets shocked all the time at random and eventually gives up trying to escape the shocks.

The problem with "breaking" a child is that they truly are broken, damaged. These people should be arrested. This is sick.

[CanuckAmok]

160. "Children are like animals" That's ridiculous....

Animals are useful.

[cleverusername]

163. Reporting child abuse

Texas has mandatory reporting of child abuse. Any Texans who know of an infant being hit, you have a duty to call Child Protective Services (CPS). You may make an anonymous report.

CPS may need a series of reports to investigate and intervene in a family situation. Document and report every incidence of child abuse.

If you cannot find the local number for CPS, call (800) 4-A-CHILD.

NATIONAL HOT LINE: (800) 4-A-CHILD

[Sinti]

164. This will make violent adults

http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/head.html#head_injuries_violence

They may be 'obedient' but at what cost, and how many will just go nuts one day leaving everyone saying, "but he was always such a nice guy" They will grow to believe that violence is the tool you use when someone is doing something you don't like, or talking in a way you don't like. What kind of adults are they trying to create here?

If you wish to have an obedient and joyful child I would suggest you begin by being very kind to them. Take very good care of their needs where they are unable to care for themselves. Let them know you want the very best thing for them, always. Listen to them as soon as they're able to talk. Ask them questions about their lives and pay attention. Talk with them constantly, explore their minds, children can teach us things, too. Most of all, repeatedly remind them of the one rule by which they can judge all things: Do not harm others, including their property and including yourself, because harming yourself harms me. You have to teach this with both word and deed.

Every child can understand this from the age of 2 or 3, and they will follow it, because it's simple. If they violate it, you talk with them and remove toys or TV, or whatever it is they like for a while and keep them close so they understand why they're in trouble. My mom used it, her mom used it, and so did I - this method raises thoughtful, kind, and productive human beings. Plus, it's only one rule so it's super-easy to implement into the familial culture.

Children will do what you say, if they think it's good for them - at least mine did for the most part. A good hard look will usually straighten them out if they think they know better - and they will think that occasionally, children are not robots. This is not parenting in any way, shape, or form. This is creating slaves to dogma.