Amanda Knox's father is as credible

[malaise]

re his daughter's innocence as Liz Cheney is re her war criminal daddy.
Now I'm not saying he shouldn't fight for his daughter just that he is clearly biased.
Why is the US media only interviewing her family? At least BBC showed both families and presented a summary of the evidence.

[CTyankee]

1. I don't think it ishelpful to compare Mr. Knox to Dick Cheney.

If you believe the prosecution's contentions, fine. I don't. I don't think there is enough forensic evidence to support a conviction. But is a bit extreme to demonize Mr. Knox...

[malaise]

3. Actually I was demonizing M$Greedia

for presenting Dick Cheney's daughter or Knox's father as objective spokespersons.

By the way please explain how Knox's DNA was on the knife handle and the victim's DNA was on the blade.

add.

[CTyankee]

7. Two things: I believe that the size of that knife didn't jibe with the victim's wounds.

Second, the amount of DNA found was inconclusive, esp. since they were roommates and it was one of their cooking utensils.

[bettyellen]

58. the cooking utensil with her DNA got moved into boyfriends apartemnt and was cleaned w/ bleach....

yeah that's common. and not everyone claims the DNA match was inconclusive, the defence team does, but that;s a given.

[pnwmom]

68. No, it wasn't cleaned with bleach. That's not part of the evidence at trial.

Go through the transcript. It's not there.

[TorchTheWitch]

107. The knife belongs to Knox's boyfriend and was taken from his house

It had also been cleaned with bleach... the only one of the knives from his house that had been cleaned with bleach. Police confiscated all of the knives from Sollecito's house for testing. One defense forensic expert says the knife doesn't match that of the wounds or the imprint of a knife on the bed. There were many defense forensic experts that testified and not all of them say the wounds couldn't have been made with the alleged murder weapon. What is most interesting about this knife is that it belonged to Sollecito, was found at his house with Meredith's DNA on the blade and Meredith had never been to Sollecito's house.

Personally, the knife doesn't hold much interest for me. In most murder cases people have been shown to be guilty without a weapon ever found or one ever used. It's the evidence that puts all three at the scene at the time of the murder and the covering up afterwards that convinces me all three were involved.

[GillyGilly]

115. What is the proof of a clean-up

What I don't get is the claim that there was a clean-up. Rudy
used towels to clean blood off of himself and left a trail of
DNA in the room. The room was a mess of blood. There is no way
the other two could have removed their DNA, finger prints, or
hair. Normal cleaning products over time leave bleach agents
everywhere. That is no proof that anyone used bleach the night
of the murder. People are regurgitating misinformation and
lies told to the media and tabloids to made Amanda and her
boyfriend look guilty because that makes money. I want to see
a real crime scene method applied without made up stories.

[TorchTheWitch]

120. that comes from the trial

You aren't even aware that Meredith wasn't killed in the room where she was found and the room was not a mess of blood.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569485/Meredith-suspects-DNA-found-on-knife.html
Mr Profazio added: 'The knife had been cleaned with bleach, which removes blood, but not DNA.'

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22332240/page/5/
Even though it had been scrubbed with bleach, analysts found traces of Meredith's DNA on the knife tip, and traces of Amanda's DNA near the handle.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2894139.ece
Police said that further evidence against Mr Sollecito had come to light in the form of receipts from a shop near his flat for bleach, bought on the morning after the murder and allegedly used to clean an 8in kitchen knife and Mr Sollecito’s Nike trainers. The first receipt was timed at 8.30am on November 2, and the second 45 minutes later, suggesting that the first container of bleach had not been sufficient. The bleach was also used to clean up the flat itself.

Tests have shown Ms Kercher’s DNA on the tip of the knife and Ms Knox’s DNA close to the handle. Police suspect that Mr Sollecito and Ms Knox attempted to clean the knife, failing to realise that they would still leave identifiable DNA traces.

The till receipts call into question Mr Sollecito’s account of events on November 2, since he had testified that he did not get up until 10am, when he was woken by Ms Knox.


Further, when police came to the house to return Meredith's phone which a neighbor had found in her garden having no idea a murder had been committed and there was a dead body in the house Knox and Sollecito were there with mop and bucket of cleaning agent containing bleach.

Knox and Sollecito were found guilty because of all their lies and wildly changing stories along with a mountain of evidence against them. Piss on all this hogwash that it was all tabloid silliness. There were 130 witnesses in an 11 month trial, and to believe that all there was to convict them was tabloid silliness is utter stupidity.

[pnwmom]

26. Please explain how that knife could have been the murder weapon when it wasn't

the same size or shape as the knife pattern traced in blood on the victim's sheet, and when it was the wrong shape to have made the cuts on Meredith.

There wasn't enough DNA on the blood to get a match that would have been admissible in U.S. courts. But why would Knox's DNA have been on the knife handle? Because it was a cooking knife. She might have used it for anything.

[bettyellen]

60. conviently, the defense claims no knife fits!!- cuts indicate a smaller knife. stains a biggger one!

call me Goldilocks, but the defense;s evedince reeks so well. i onlt suspect tha gal at all because she lied so freuently, and knowingly lied while she framed someone for it.

[Orsino]

6. The comparison was to Liz Cheney...

...and only on the subject of credibility.

[marshall]

12. Isn't the comparison between Mr. Knox and Mary Cheney?

As obviously biased advocates for questionable loved ones?

[malaise]

16. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Liz Cheney actually :D

add

[bettyellen]

65. it;s like Jessica Simpson's dad talking about her talent.

[rebel with a cause]

100. ......

:rofl:

[fortyfeetunder]

2. Several factors in play

1) Cultural/judicial: I think the US media conveniently forgot the Italian judicial system is not like the US judicial system. US judicial system: innocent until proven guilty. The Italian judicial system made a conclusion while the judicial pundits in the US still think the trial is not over.

2) The "young (white female) college student" image portrayed by US media was supposed to promote the possibility of innocence. And Knox has been frequently been portrayed by the US media as being the victim instead of the slain Ms. Kercher.

I know this outcome is shallow for the Kercher family and I hope they can find some solace in justice. A horrible situation for both families.

[malaise]

4. Good post

The Kercher family sounded like the adults during their press conference. They found no reason to celebrate.

[CTyankee]

8. I certainly don't disagree re the Kercher family but that has nothing to do with

the lack of forensic evidence.

[malaise]

10. If M$Greedia interviewed

some objective folks and they presented all the issues I might change my position. Right now it's jingoism gone mad and I'm sorry her father's views are useless.

[pnwmom]

29. That's what they did with the Duke lacrosse case. Presenting both sides as if they were equal,

when one side is totally corrupt, isn't always fair.

[SoCalDem]

5. and personal conduct shown online & in photos & testimony

CAN (and DOES) come back to haunt someone if they ever get into trouble.. Young people everywhere should be very careful about what they post online, and how they relay their "adventures"..

[CTyankee]

9. So she had sex with her boyfriend and also kept a sex toy.

That description would fit a lot of women Amanda's age...

[SoCalDem]

11. perfectly ok, until their roommate ends up slaughtered and they get questioned

in a foreign country that pretends to be very religious..and has a corrupt judicial system..

[pnwmom]

27. Right. So this was basically a witch hunt. She wasn't appropriate enough

in her behavior.

We have always treated young and older women this way. I can't believe the numbers here who are trying to justify it.

[SoCalDem]

30. I'm not "justifying" it.. There is no way to KNOW who really killed the other girl

and you have to accept the system of the country you happen to be in.. It sucks to be her right now, but her behavior and actions are a part of the case, according to the judicial system she had to face.

Had the same thing happened here, it might have turned out differently, but one fact remains.. the other girl would still be dead.. This was not a suicide. and someone did it. she was there, and apparently her story was not believed.

Every defendant runs the risk of not being believed.

[pnwmom]

31. There is a mountain of evidence in this case linking the third, already convicted

individual -- physical evidence, footprints, fingerprints, DNA inside and outside of Meredith's body. Plus a window broken from the outside by someone entering her room.

On the other hand, there wasn't a spec of DNA or other physical evidence from Amanda or her boyfriend in Meredith's room (the crime scene). How is it possible that two drug crazed students in a fit of murderous passion didn't exchange ANY DNA or other physical specimens with Meredith or leave any trace of their presence in the room where the crime was committed? It isn't. It didn't happen.

I don't have to accept the results of this case being correctly decided, anymore than I would have accepted -- for example -- the Duke students case, if they had had to go to trial and had been found guilty. Anyone who really looked closely at that case or at this one could see there was enough reasonable doubt to drive a truck through.

[bettyellen]

37. the boyfriends DNA Was found in the room, on her bra clasp

[pnwmom]

39. That bra was found 46 days after the murder,

after the house had been torn apart and the crime scene completely contaminated. And it wasn't found in her room. There are photos over the course of the 46 days showing it at different places in the apartment, meaning that it had gotten tossed around during the course of the searches.

[bettyellen]

67. it was found in her room w his DNA and had just moved a bit. crime scene photos had it near the bed

[pnwmom]

74. How did he manage to get DNA on her bra clasp and NO WHERE ELSE on the

entire bra or anywhere else on her body or the room itself, if he was a drug-crazed murderer? In that kind of scenario, it is impossible for the victim not to have traces of the murderer's DNA and for the murderer to not pick up traces of the victim's.

There IS a person who left his DNA all over the victim, and he was already convicted.

So how did a small amount of DNA get on the bra clasp? There are videos of the crime scene investigation which have been examined by numerous independent experts -- including in Great Britain. They show that the evidence was mishandled (for example, not using gloves properly) in a way that could easily have transferred a small amount of DNA to the bra clasp in the course of collecting it. And anything could have happened in the 46 days the clasp was kicked around on the floor.

[GillyGilly]

117. DNA on BRA clasp

The lab techs touched multiple items in the room and on the
floor as well as the door and it's handle.
The clasp, in fact, moved around the room picking up the DNA
of many persons as well as the spects on the ends of the
tech's gloves as each passed the clasp around in that room
before placing the clasp into a bag. The clasp is compromised
and useless.

[TorchTheWitch]

108. The broken window was not into Meredith's room

It was into one of the Italian roommate's room (Filomena Romanelli).

I find it very interesting that most of the people here arguing in Knox's defense don't know the most simple things about the case.

[bettyellen]

38. you're omitting the behaviour where she wrote about rape + murder fanatasies...

[pnwmom]

45. The story she wrote for her creative writing class was nothing.

Just one more thing for the media to hype.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=439135

Last week, Knox's MySpace page was set to private, though not before The Stranger—and other news organizations—had printed out the contents of Knox's blog. On November 7, London's Daily Mail wrote that the writing on Knox's blog gave "worrying insight into the bizarre life which has led the 20-year-old brunette to an Italian police cell," and, with specific reference to "Baby Brother," that "the discovery of the prose, which will now be examined by detectives, casts a new light on the woman." But the ostensible "insight" provided by this ostensible "new light" went unarticulated. You were just supposed to infer it, since "Baby Brother" is built around an older brother (Edgar) confronting his younger brother (Kyle) for drugging and raping a girl.

The only new light that "Baby Brother" casts on the murder suspect is that she wasn't a very good short-story writer. She emphasizes characters' furrowed brows and facial creases and is overly fond of the word "sand" ("His husky voice sounded like it was crawling out of a bucket of sand"; "His skin reminded him of sand, and how sand was all stretched and washed out on a cold beach"; a character named Sandra has "sandy blond hair"). When Edgar is about to confront Kyle, we get this rather overbaked sentence: "His mouth was drawn tight and creased at the edges, and for a second Edgar thought he was going to say something, but he felt the tightness of his brow ease and he swallowed a large, slippery gulp of the aching, burning rage that pulsated in his forehead, chest, and throat." These are unmistakably the contorted metaphors and maudlin exaggerations concocted by someone who doesn't know what she's talking about, who's making it up whole cloth.

The story's biggest weakness from a literary standpoint is that none of it is believable. Kyle, the story's rapist, is a cheeseball bad guy who first tells his brother, "A thing you have to know about chicks is that they don't know what they want," and then punches Edgar in the face. Anyone who's ever read a handful of college-level creative-writing assignments knows that date rape is a cliché of the genre, as is someone-punching-someone-else-in-the-face. These are the sorts of conflicts that creative-writing students cook up because they're taught that the first thing they need to do is cook up conflict. After Edgar gets punched by his brother (described as feeling "like someone was jabbing a razor into the left side of his face," which isn't what getting punched in the face feels like), Edgar is on the floor bleeding profusely. "He spit into the blossoming smudge beside his head." That's pretty evocative, that "blossoming smudge."

[bettyellen]

50. because it;s crappily written matters how? why would that matter at all @ fantasy she cooked up?

[pnwmom]

59. It's a nothing story, obviously just written for the class. n/t

[bettyellen]

64. because you say so there's only health sexuality, the couples morbid interest in rape murder dont +

matter at all. to you anyway.
and the bra clasp stayed in the bedroom, did not wander around the whole apatment.
and Im sure youknow there isn;t a knife in existance that these same critics will say matched the wound size and the stain. maybe this means she was never stabbed, right?

[pnwmom]

76. The real killer no doubt took the knife that matched the stains on the sheet

with him when he ran away.

It would make no sense for Amanda's boyfriend, if he had been the killer, to take it back to his apartment and put it in the kitchen drawer instead of disposing of it.

[bettyellen]

78. the stain knife doesn't match the size of the cuts according to your people + that;s brilliant

no knife= no murder!!

[pnwmom]

81. I don't know who you mean by "my" people. I didn't have an opinion about the

case until I began reading both sides about a month ago.

You appear to be one of those who made up their minds in the first month after her arrest.

[bettyellen]

88. the defense's interpetation of evidence, that IS what you have been spewing they say no knife fits

[pnwmom]

105. You're wrong -- the defense is not saying that no knife fits her wounds. They say

that the knife outlined in blood on the sheets in Meredith's room fits her wounds -- and that the knife from the boyfriend's apartment does not.

[robinlynne]

48. and the boyfriend blogged about serial killers.

[pnwmom]

83. You -- or one of your sources -- is making this up. There was no murder in her story.

There was a college student in her story who was date raped -- hardly an unusual occurrence, and I'm sure the creative writing teacher has seen hundreds of students write on the topic -- none of whom went on to become rapist-murderers.

[malaise]

14. One of my nieces spent a semester in Seville, Spain

had sex with her boyfriend, returned to the US and graduated with a 3.87 GPA. None of her personal business was posted on a social networking page.

[EndersDame]

24. Does it make a girl a whore if she is open and comfortable with her sexuality?

[JoeyT]

32. That would seem to be the idea.

Apparently it makes her a murderer too. Especially if you have absolutely no other evidence to pin it on them.

[bettyellen]

69. i thought it was about the couple exhibiting interest in rape and murder, not sex

[pnwmom]

84. Except there was no murder in her story. n/t

[bettyellen]

91. which of the six stories are you talking about- where she "heard screaming" and plugged her ears?

because she did tell the cops quite a strange tale, or five.
and thats the kind of stuff you and 25 hours don;t like to talk about.

[pnwmom]

98. Did you read anything specific about this case or just the tabloids?

I was referring to the creative writing piece that you put out to reinforce your argument about her, saying that she displayed fantasies of rape and murder. The story that she wrote for a college writing class had a character in it who date raped a woman; but there was no murder in it. You should stop saying there was.

With regard to her changing story to the police, the first statement she gave was correct and she holds to it now. But after that, the police kept her for days, haranguing her and lying to her about what they supposedly could prove, until she, in her exhaustion and with no attorney present, began to doubt her own memories and began to go along with hypothetical suggestions that the police were feeding her.

I challenge you to do better if you were ever picked up by police in a foreign country, with a different language, and questioned for days with no attorney.

[pnwmom]

99. Knox and her boyfriend are as much victims in this as Meredith, except in degree.

They may lose decades of their lives to the lie that the prosecutor persuaded a jury and Meredith's parents to believe.

[NWHarkness]

13. A summary of the evidence?

What evidence?

[malaise]

15. I think it was way more than the evidence

for the Bushco's detainees around the world. Believe me people outside of the US are making the comparisons.

[pnwmom]

40. Why can't people protest this case without being accused of making global

comparisons of justice in the U.S. versus Italy?

I thought that the Duke lacrosse students were being railroaded by an unethical prosecutor, and I think the same thing happened in this case. It has nothing to do with the U.S. versus Italy -- just a failure of both systems.

[CTyankee]

92. I wondered that comparison myself. Odd that it is even brought up, as if WE don't KNOW

there is a difference in the two justice systems, or at least, doesn't assume one is exactly like the other. Then comes the "U.S. exceptionalism" accusation which is astonishing to me: when have I EVER been THAT? It's laughable.

[robinlynne]

23. for one thing the knife was wiped clean, even so had dna of the victim at the point and

amanda's on the handle.

[JoeyT]

33. And?

It also doesn't seem to be the knife that was used in the murder.
Plus if it was a knife taken from the house it's possible the accused had cut themselves with it several days before. Do you automatically autoclave every knife you cut yourself with?
You're also assuming no misconduct on the part of the investigation/prosecution. Which is a *huge* assumption, if you read the prosecutions arguments in court.
They pretty much amounted to "Yeah, our evidence is shit. We know she had no motive. But you don't need motive and evidence to kill someone. Doesn't she look guilty!?"

[bettyellen]

36. the knife had been bleached (agressively cleaned) and was at the boyfriend's apartment,

[pnwmom]

43. Blood could be detected even if bleach had been used. And the knife was used to

cook with. Lots of people carefully clean their knives.

It would make no sense, if this was the murder weapon, for him to keep it in his apartment rather than throw it away. And it didn't match the real murder weapon -- which was traced in blood on Amanda's sheets -- in either size or shape.

[robinlynne]

47. So how would it have the dead girl's dna on the point?

[bettyellen]

54. she's going to say it needed to be tested again , yawn. if ms knox has one credible story

about what happened that night, i mightbeliever her. the fact that she had told five fake ones- and tries to blame a little hash, looks pretty bad for her.

[pnwmom]

61. The few cells (not blood, just cells) could have come from any number of

people, including Meredith, and including people working in the lab -- there wasn't enough DNA to get specific. Also, videos of the police work show that they weren't being careful to avoid contaminating evidence -- for example, they weren't changing gloves between items, and pieces of evidence weren't being bagged properly.

[bettyellen]

71. the premise that all psysical eveidence is tainted is a great gambit for the defense I agree

[alp227]

114. Once again, prosecutors bungle evidence and might defeat themselves

Think about the OJ Simpson case too: There was much evidence implicating Simpson, but the LAPD mishandled it and thus everything went up in smoke leading to a very rare acquittal. Also, Simpson's store receipt for the alleged murder weapon (a stiletto knife) and someone's witness testimony about the car speeding away were sold to tabloids, so the judge excluded those.

Same here happened with the Kercher case. Here's some articles:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904571,00.html
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/summary.html

Based on what I've been reading, I think that Guede is the prime suspect, but what about the fact that Knox also posted a slutty Myspace profile photo and wrote a date-rape story? I wonder how those evidences play out compared to the fact that Knox's testimony suddenly changed under harsher interrogation.

[bettyellen]

52. lots of people bleach knives? and DNA was detected and Im sure you have 5 stories (like Amanda)

to explain that away too. that girl told whatever lie of the moment she needed- tried to get an innocent man to take the rap,
no one gets that high from hashish, she's played you people big time.

[pnwmom]

63. The prosecutor never introduced the bleach story into evidence -- so it's just

one more of the lies going around.

It wouldn't make any sense anyway. Any cleaning that would have removed all traces of blood would have removed the other cells too. This knife was tested with luminol and no blood showed up at all.

[bettyellen]

70. i know, there's no knife in existance according to your sources.... but your gal lied about even

being there till her own blood was found. have you ever had hashish, for fucks sake, no one gets this stupid and frames people and changes her story five times over a little hash. she's hiding something, it's a shame we will never know why she is lying.
and it's a shame the defense people will claim every knife in existance doen't fit. half th knifes are too small to make the imprint, except for the ones too big to make the cuts. Kishmers family must love hearing that.

[pnwmom]

73. She had only been there for a couple weeks and she barely spoke Italian.

She went down on her own to the station and suddenly found herself being grilled for 50 hours. The prosecutors began posing "what if" scenarios until they "caught" her contradicting herself. If you had any empathy and/or just some common sense, you'd realize that whatever mistakes she made were due to exhaustion, confusion, shaky language skills, and the investigators hypothetical method of posing questions.

There is nothing to connect the knife in the other apartment to Meredith. The few cells worth of DNA could have belonged to lots of people. As you well know, the murder weapon could have been taken by the third person, the one who left his DNA, footprints, and fingerprints all over Meredith's room.

Justice was done when HE was convicted. Sending innocent people to prison won't benefit Meredith or her parents.

[bettyellen]

75. there is no knife in existsance that meets the defence's criteria and that's a huge flaw

ans that she managed to change her story- just to fit the newest evidence =5 times- that shows she was doing pretty welll understanding them I'd say. if she didn't have anything to hide, she could stick to the one story and not try to frame random people.

[pnwmom]

85. The police posed to her numerous hypothetical scenarios -- blame them then.

There is a knife in existence -- it's the one that matches the stains on the sheets.

[bettyellen]

89. the knife stains are too big to match her wounds, while the knife in BFs drawer did.

Looks lie the knife stains were interpeted incorrectly.

[pnwmom]

96. The defense does not say that the knife marks on the sheet don't fit the wounds

and neither does the prosecution. I don't know where you're getting that.

[704wipes]

95. Looks like one similarity between the two justice systems

Police in both systems are allowed to lie during interrogations. Hypothetical scenarios are lying in my book, and, it was done purposefully to badger the suspect.

[pnwmom]

97. Exactly. After she gave her initial statement -- the one she holds to now --

that put her in the boyfriend's apartment, they lied to her, insisting that they had visual proof that she had entered her own apartment before the murder. After hours of this haranguing, and knowing that she'd been smoking hash that night, she didn't know whether to trust her own memories, or what the police were then insisting was true.

[pnwmom]

41. It didn't have any blood of the victim. It had a few cells on the tip -- not enough

identify a person with any specificity.

And it was a kitchen knife, so it was hardly surprising that Amanda's DNA might have been on the handle.

Also, it didn't match the shape or size of the knife that was used in the murder -- the knife that was traced in blood on the sheet in Meredith's room.

[Are_grits_groceries]

17. I became familiar with Judge Mignini

long before Knox was in his courtroom. I read 'The Monster of Florence' by Douglas Preston about a serial killer who attacked young couples. The book not only delves into who the killer could be, it also naturally includes the handling of the crimes by the Italian police and justice system.
Preston and his co-author Spezi became suspects themselves in a Kafkaesque twist. They had cast aspersions on the guilt of a couple of people that were accused of the crimes. The people accused were treated no better than Knox as they were declared guilty by the police and then the evidence was made to fit the crime. The people in charge really went after Preston and Spezi in order to destroy their character and thus their conclusions.

Preston has commented on the Knox trial and has been a spectator. He is not an unbiased person. However, reading about the actions of Mignini and others in the serial killer case, the parallels between the techniques used against the suspects years apart are striking.
The serial killer case and the Knox case are both very high profile cases. They both were guaranteed to receive tons of press, and the authorities were under the gun to find a killer. In both cases, they declared who the killer was and then got backed into a corner when things fell apart. In the Knox case, I believe they are loathe to publicly once again be seen as inept and have used everything under the sun to cast her in a negative light. The evidence is so suspect that they have chosen to bolster it by making her a monster.

Mignini is a piece of work. Google Douglas Preston and you will find a myriad of articles about his earlier run in with Mignini and the Italian justice system. You will also find his take on the Knox trial.

I am not going to defend the cases in our own justice system that beggar belief. They can be as twisted and convoluted as anything here. However when I heard the name Mignini, I thought that Knox was toast. I was right.

[malaise]

18. I watched a program about that serial killer

and the trial a while back. I don't know much about this one but her father is not an objective spokesperson.

[Are_grits_groceries]

22. I don't think so either.

I haven't heard anything he's said, but I can't imagine he would be.

I'm not sure about the program you watched. If they went into the shenanigans of Mignini and others, then it would give you an idea about what could happen.

I just remembered the name and what happened in the earlier case. The trial is just a small part of the entire story. Mignini + high profile case = toasted chosen suspect
I seriously do believe a lot of this is about not losing face. Italian justice isn't the only place that would hold true.

As I said, our justice system certainly has enough suspect trials and people to make specials about too. I have no idea how the italian justice system works when not cast in the hysterical light of huge cases. My statements are confined to Mignini and the problem when the case becomes a cause celebre. :hi:

[spoony]

19. I'm reading that right now

Picked it up after seeing, ironically given the thread, an MSNBC docu on the case.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

21. What you said ... Plus the known knife-carrying burglar who ADMITTED ..

... to having sex with the victim fled the country the day after the crime. His fingerprint was found at the scene.

[pnwmom]

44. His fingerprints and numerous boot-prints, which the prosecution withheld

from the defense for a year and a half. Also his DNA inside and outside Meredith's body.

[bettyellen]

72. his story that the BF did it makes more sense/ fits as much as any of Amanda's five stories

[pnwmom]

28. Thank you for this post. You give some important background here. n/t

[ErinBerin84]

20. I agree, it's tiresome

I think that the "Foxy Knoxy" coverage was bullshit, but the Friends of Amanda PR campaign that the media is assisting is not exactly balanced either. A lot of it seems to be all about "American justice system is soooo much better than in Italy, how could this have happened?!", when stuff like this happens all of the time.

[pnwmom]

79. Yes it does happen -- for example, the Duke student case -- and it's wrong

whenever it happens -- either here or in Italy or anywhere else.

I think she and her boyfriend are as innocent as those students were. The "evidence" is a pile of crap and the prosecutor is motivated by his own ego and ambitions.

[ErinBerin84]

93. yes, you've made your opinion crystal clear.

And while I think that a lot of the evidence was probably tainted, etc, the fact that the media coverage in America doesn't even bring it up to be a bit weird. Regardless, the coverage that I've seen is either pro-AManda, or Anti-Amanda, but not pro-victim at all.

[pnwmom]

106. Justice for the victim in this case would also mean justice for Amanda and the

other falsely accused person.

There is no justice for the victim in getting the wrong people sent to prison, and the real murderer, who left vast amounts of physical evidence on the scene, is already in prison.

[ErinBerin84]

109. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be made to feel guilty for wanting

better coverage. Better coverage would be speaking about ALL evidence involved and debunking it, rather than ignoring it all together. I know that Amanda's family wants to counter the bad press surrounding the case too, and who could blame them, but they have added some confusion to the facts over several points too. Meredith's family has been pretty strong through the process, and even refused the bait when the British media was going crazy over those pictures that Amanda's sisters took in front of the cottage for a woman's magazine, saying that it was the fault of the photographers for being manipulative. Even so, the family and their lawyer have said that they would like more respectful coverage and courtroom behavior. I thought that the Dateline coverage was pretty balanced, presenting all of the evidence, and still devoting a lot of time to the Friends of Amanda rep. 48 hours Mystery episode got a lot of things wrong, for example , on the point of whether Amanda had ever met Guede. The Friend of Amanda person also is not able to offer a convincing explanation for some facts, like saying that Amanda's boyfriend "talked to a friend that he knew at the police", on why his phone records showed he didn't call the police. On some points, they just make it worse (her stepfather tried to say that the police made Amanda do cartwheels, other times he said that she was doing yoga stretches. Does this matter? I could care less about the cartwheels, but they don't really help the focus on those small details) . So no, I don't think that the overwhelming PR on the case is really doing her any favors, which is why journalists should rely more on the case and not on interviews with the family.

[GillyGilly]

119. superficial coverage of the real issues

Who benefits from the Pro/con--them/us--status quo...that is the tabloids/prosecution and the MSM has lowered their standards likewise. Leaks to the media/tabloids benefited those you received either attention or $$$$$.

Amanda has a right to a defense and when the whole crime is repeatedly framed about her being the murderer, then who bothers to look at the BS so called evidence especially when Rudy's the one leaving clear evidence at the crime scene and not the other two. Instead the media writes crap to the point that people just repeat misinformation. Confusion was created for a reason.

Too bad they are allowed to drag this out before the truer elements are revealed that being that there is no real evidence that the two were at the crime scene during the murder, only Rudy. The rest is smoke and mirrors as well as dishonest reporting.

[pnwmom]

25. He's as credible as the students of the Duke lacrosse railroading, as far as I'm

concerned.

Meredith's family doesn't have anything to do with this. Putting the wrong people in jail for her murder doesn't help Meredith's family achieve closure. They should have achieved it when the real murderer -- the one with all the physical evidence directly tying him to the murder -- was convicted and put in prison.

[liberal_at_heart]

34. I'm from the Seattle area and the media is clearly showing a bias in favor of the Knox family

I didn't think to look up the story on the BBC. If they are showing a more balanced look at the story I would be glad to watch it. I don't know if she is guilty or not but I am tired of the blatant bias in favor of the Knox family by the local community and the media.

[pnwmom]

42. Were the people biased who first saw flaws in the case against the Duke lacrosse students

who were falsely accused of rape ? Or were they looking more clearheadedly at the evidence than most people, who were just swallowing the media hype and prosecutor's venial attacks?

[tonysam]

53. Only in Seattle in the U.S.

But read the overseas tabloids, such as Murdoch's The Sun. Absolutely despicable and libelous. The BBC isn't going to be "balanced" considered Kercher was British.

The British has been the worst in the smears.

[bettyellen]

56. 48 hours was very biased- left out a lot of details so Amanda looks more innocent

[pnwmom]

77. They left out "details" that are LIES -- like the bleach story you keep repeating

here.

[bettyellen]

80. and they (and you) leave out details only you think are insignificant based on defense's say so

that;s the very definition of bias,

[pnwmom]

82. Such as? n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

113. Profazio claimed the knife was cleaned with bleach

Profazio is one of the prosecutors.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569485/Meredith-suspects-DNA-found-on-knife.html
Mr Profazio added: 'The knife had been cleaned with bleach, which removes blood, but not DNA.' It is understood the kitchen knife may have come from the house that Knox and Miss Kercher shared in Perugia.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22332240/page/5/
Even though it had been scrubbed with bleach, analysts found traces of Meredith's DNA on the knife tip, and traces of Amanda's DNA near the handle.


Sollecito also purchased bleach twice at a shop near his house the morning after the murder at a time he had claimed to have been asleep...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2894139.ece
Police said that further evidence against Mr Sollecito had come to light in the form of receipts from a shop near his flat for bleach, bought on the morning after the murder and allegedly used to clean an 8in kitchen knife and Mr Sollecito’s Nike trainers. The first receipt was timed at 8.30am on November 2, and the second 45 minutes later, suggesting that the first container of bleach had not been sufficient. The bleach was also used to clean up the flat itself.

Tests have shown Ms Kercher’s DNA on the tip of the knife and Ms Knox’s DNA close to the handle. Police suspect that Mr Sollecito and Ms Knox attempted to clean the knife, failing to realise that they would still leave identifiable DNA traces.

The till receipts call into question Mr Sollecito’s account of events on November 2, since he had testified that he did not get up until 10am, when he was woken by Ms Knox.



I would suggest looking somewhere other than Friends of Amanda for info on this case.

[Contrary1]

35. Did anyone see 48 Hours Mystery tonight?

I don't really have an opinion as to whether or not this young woman is guilty. But; some of the evidence was clearly mishandled, and the prosecutor is up to his eyeballs with his own legal problems.

[undeterred]

49. I saw it,

and I don't think she should have been convicted. They kept showing the picture of Amanda and her boyfriend kissing as if it were some kind of evidence. What the hell kind of evidence is that?

As flawed as our legal system may be, theirs is a whole lot worse. The media has a HUGE influence on the outcome of the crime and its very sensational.

[tonysam]

55. She would NEVER have been tried in the U.S. There is NO evidence whatsoever

tying her to the crime. All the Italian officials have are smears, and then you find out their trials are nothing but kangaroo courts. She has to appeal the verdict and try and get another trial.

[malaise]

111. Dan Abrams makes sense

The most balanced comments on this trial to date.

[tonysam]

57. Because she didn't throw herself on the ground and wail, I guess.

She was clearly distraught and her then-boyfriend was trying to comfort her. There is nothing wrong with that.

[undeterred]

62. No, there isn't.

They questioned some of her behavior at the police station too. She may be guilty of immaturity but there is absolutely no proof she is guilty of a crime. There isn't a motive, there is no history of this kind of behavior in her past- either the group sex they dreamed up or the violence.

[Suich]

46. Are you serious?

:shrug:

[tonysam]

51. More garbage. The tabloids have done nothing but trash Amanda.

I am sick and tired of reading apologists for a corrupt, mentally deranged prosecutor who basically threw everything at Amanda but the kitchen sink.

A big unrec here.

[pnwmom]

66. You'd think people might have learned something from the Duke lacrosse case

about the way an ambitious prosecutor could railroad a defendant.

Skepticism is in order here. And just plain COMMON SENSE.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

86. She was set up.

I feel Amanda is innocent of murdering her roommate. I have followed the story in both the British papers and the Seattle papers. I am very disturbed by the way Amanda has been portrayed in the UK. I am British by the way and I see a big problem with the quotes in some of the UK's trashier papers. Her mother is quoted saying thing's and using words a British woman would say and not any American woman. Which proves to me that they are not letting facts get in the way of a good story.

There are pictures of Amanda with the caption, 'the face of evil'. They have also been lead to believe that the 30cm knife was PROVEN to be the murder weapon with Amanda's and her boyfriend's DNA on it. Given all this BS in the UK and on the continent, I feel the Italian jury felt obligated to find her guilty.

I found this report in the Seattle PI;

A leading forensic expert today used a mannequin head and two knives to show how wounds found on murdered Meredith Kercher's neck were incompatible with a knife found by police.

Professor Carlo Torre, has been involved in numerous Italian trials and carried out 5,000 post mortems, gave evidence on behalf of Amanda Knox, 21, as the case against her and her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, 25, continued.

They are jointly charged with the murder and sexual assault of Meredith, 21, who was found semi naked and with her throat cut in her bedroom in the house she shared with Knox.

Prosecutors have already told the court in Perugia, Italy, where the murder took place that she was killed after refusing to take part in a drug fuelled orgy.

Prof Torre, who is based in Turin, used the knives and head to demonstrate how in his opinion the wounds on Meredith's throat were not compatible with a 30cm kitchen knife found by police in Sollecito's flat.

The trial has already heard how DNA from Meredith was found on the blade while DNA from Knox was found on the black handle but defence lawyers say the traces are insufficient and cannot be seen as conclusive.

Media and public were asked to leave as graphic photographs of Meredith's body were shown to the court and at one point Knox's official interpreter asked to leave as she felt unwell.

Audio of Prof Torre's evidence was relayed to a press room and with a large bladed knife in one hand and a shorter one in the other, he said: "Examining the blade found and the wounds it is clear that it is incompatible.

it is my opinion that the blade that caused the wounds to the victim's neck was much shorter, probably around 8cm and that it was no more than a centimeter wide.

'The knife went in and out of the wounds, once, twice, three times, in a sawing motion.'

Prof Torre added that there was also evidence of strangulation as the hyoid bone, a small bone in the neck, had been broken after pressure had been applied.

As he gave evidence Knox listened intently while a few feet behind her, her mother Edda Mellas and her sisters Deanne and Ashley sat behind making notes.

Prof Torre, who has examined crime scene footage and autopsy video and notes, also told the court that there was 'nothing to make me think that more than one person was involved.'

He added: 'There are no elements or traces to suggest anyone else was involved.'

Prof Torre also said that from the blood splatters on Meredith's chest it was clear to him that she was not wearing her bra as the spots were compatible with being 'breathed out' as she died.

He added that bruises found on Meredith's body was not evidence that she had been held down but instead caused by her 'bashing and knocking' into the floor and furniture.

[malaise]

87. So how did the American press portray the young men

in Aruba after the Natalie Holloway disappearance?
Today I heard one M$Greedia hack suggesting that the US government intervene.

I don't know if she's innocent or guilty but what sickens me is the sense of American entitlement regardless of the circumstances. Do you know how many innocent foreigners are locked up in US prisons?

[Boudica the Lyoness]

90. I don't know how the young men

were portrayed in the Natalie Holloway disappearance because I didn't follow it. I was commenting on the Amanda Knox verdict because I have an opinion about it. I mentioned I am British born and raised and I am also sickened by American arrogance and sense of entitlement around the world.

I am broad minded and intelligent enough not to think Amanda is better than than the Italians that found her guilty or the British girl she was found guilty of murdering simply because she is an American girl.

Without looking up the numbers, I don't know how many innocent foreigners are locked up in US prisons. I know there must be many because of the great number of innocent Americans locked up in American prisons and sometimes put to death.

Let me be clear; I don't care where Amanda was born. I think she is innocent and set up. A fellow countrywoman of mine was murdered and I don't think Amanda Knox did it.

That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[pnwmom]

103. Yours is a well considered opinion, Boudica.

And you're right -- it doesn't matter where Amanda was born, unless somehow anti-Americanism affected the un sequestered jury's verdict.

[CTyankee]

94. You know, I am personally insulted by the suggestion that I feel there is any American "entitlement"

in this trial. I base my disagreement with this verdict on the strength (or lack thereof) of forensic evidence against Knox.

I also resent the introduction of her father's defense of his daughter as an evil Cheney family plot. That is pure sensationalism on DU, trying to incite DUers to chime in with a diatribe on American expansionism around the world. Can we not stick to the real issues and not try to hang a political label around the neck of this case? I am a liberal, goddamitt, and I have been around for lots of years on this planet, most of the adult years fighting for justice and peace and I am not going to have my liberal, progressive view demeaned...

You can make or not make your case based on the evidence presented. Fine. I have no problem with that. Leave your accusations about my motivation ("entitlement") out of it. I have no such things...

[malaise]

110. You have chosen to interpret my posts as a personal attack

That is your right but my essential point is that her father is as credible as Liz Cheney. Discussions are not helped when family members are presented as objective spokespersons.

[CTyankee]

112. I am angrier about having political stuff aimed at me that is unsupportable, ie, this

"entitlement motivation." Anyone who makes that assertion about me doesn't know me and my background. I don't go around accusing people who think she's guilty as having evil political intentions and I do not expect it to be unconditionally aimed at me.

While not a personal attack against me, it is unseemly to cast this situation in such loaded political terms as being Cheney-esque in any way. I would expect a father to be defending his chld, esp. in a case with so much of the prosecution's evidence in dispute.

I am shaking my head in disbelief that these kinds of arguments are being raised in this case. There is a great deal here we could be questioning...

Here, I'll start:

Is there any incriminating personal history in Amanda's background that would suggest she is capable of committing this kind of heinous crime? Did she ever torture small animals? Was she treated for any personality disorders as a child that would even suggest capability of commintting violence? Did she have a history of drug abuse?

[pnwmom]

102. I don't see that sense of entitlement here, among those who believe she is innocent.

I also looked at the evidence in the Duke lacrosse scandal and realized that they couldn't have carried out the crime they were accused of. Their case is the one I'd compare hers to, both having ambitious, self-regarding, ruthless prosecutors.

Injustice can occur in any system, and when it is blatantly occurring in front of us, we should be speaking out; making people aware of the tactics of rogue prosecutors can have long run implications that will help other less-publicized defendants.

[rebel with a cause]

104. +1

Hallelujah and amen.

[pnwmom]

101. The tabloids had a lot of fun with their witch-hunt.

Thanks for the article in the PI. I hadn't seen it.

[devilgrrl]

116. I think she's guilty and I'm glad she's behind bars.

:popcorn:

Funny that no one discusses what the victim's family thinks about all this.

[amborin]

118. i think she's guilty, too; i sort of followed it in the Guardian, and there seemed to be convincing

evidence against her

[malaise]

121. I don't know if she's guilty

but you raise a good question

[devilgrrl]

122. I haven't heard beaux about the victim and not a hint of sadness for her from the Knox side.

Her nonchalant behavior is what set my bullshit detector off. What little I've seen, which is mostly US news, she didn't conduct herself as someone falsely accused of being involved with a heinous crime. And not one word about the victim from her family or supporters. NOTHING!!! WTF?

I get this "oh well, my roommate got her throat slit and sexually assaulted in the next room - but, see I didn't do it so like, it's not my problem... It's not like we hung out or anything..." vibe from Amanda Knox and it just gives me the willies. :scared: I couldn't give a rat's ass about her boozing and sexing either - there is something not right with that kid.

She reminds me a lot of how Tonya Harding was the day Nancy Kerrigan got her knee clubbed. I had never heard of Tonya Harding up to that point. The day of the incident there was a news clip getting her reaction to the incident. She acted like she wasn't the least bit disturbed by it - she could not have cared less and I vividly remember being appalled by her behavior, like, Jesus! What's up with that broad? Let's see how flippant she is when she gets her knee destroyed. What an asshole! Then a few days later we find out that she was involved with planning the assault. I wasn't surprised when I heard.

My bullshit detector has blown up on a few other occasions. There's the Charles Stuart case from 1989 - I remember not believing one word about that case and got into several heated arguments over it. I just didn't buy that they were attacked by a "black drug addict" - bullshit! And a few months later... who dove off of the Tobin Bridge? :popcorn:

The night Susan Smith cried to the nation on Larry King Live about her kidnapped little babies! The ones that were kidnapped during a carjacking supposedly carried out by a black man! In South Carolina!!! Yeah, uh huh, right... yeah... sure. I knew she was full of shit and as it turns out - I was right.

And last and least, because this guy is an asshole too, Alex Kelly, the boy-wonder rapist who skipped off to Europe for seven years. Another smiling sociopath who thought he was too cute to get a convicted. Guess again douchebag.

As for the prosecutor in the Knox case - for one thing, he wasn't on trial, and if he's as venal as everyone says - then why haven't we heard from Raffaele Sollecito's family about the unjust conviction their son just received?

:popcorn:

Say what you want. Amanda Knox was convicted of murder - deal with it!