One of my best friends had an abortion last summer.

[lightningandsnow]

She was 17 at the time.

And yes, it was "elective". It was not "medically necessary".

However, she says it was the best decision she's ever made.

She's a brilliant girl with a lot of potential who wants to become a social worker.

She plans to start university in England next year, if she gets into London Metropolitan University. If not, she wants to study social work at Carleton in Ottawa, Canada - where I'm studying now.

Having an abortion allowed her to continue her studies, and, hopefully, realize her dream of helping others and changing lives.

I'm tired of people clinging on to horrific medical stories where the baby would have been otherwise very much wanted. Framing this as the "acceptable" or "more justified" form of abortion contributes to marginalizing people like my friend. Who does not regret her abortion.

[imdjh]

1. So what.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

60. So, you're tombstoned. WOO HOO!

[tekisui]

69. Heehee. That one deserved it for a long time.

So long. You won't be missed.:hi:

One more name off my buddy list.

[tekisui]

71. Here is another one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=249189

I am checking my list, now.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

72. Haven't had the displeasure of meeting that one. On the other hand...

...MY double whammy was the above and this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=108256

Anti-choicer, birther, and said we only don't like Rick Santorum because he's Catholic. Boo hoo.

[tekisui]

73. Looks like someone is cleaning house.

Good.

The doctor was a prime asshole. Nothing more, nothing less.

[liberalhistorian]

101. Dem Bones was a birther?

She'd been posting here even longer than me, I think (and I've been here almost seven years); I find that hard to believe from her. I mean, I disagreed with her on some things, but overall she seemed like a decent progressive. Then again, I hadn't seen her posts for awhile, so maybe I'm missing something. She seemed too smart to be a birther. Of course, who really knows about people anymore.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

104. Before you put "smart" and "Dembones Dembones" in the same sentence, keep in mind that...

...she believed one-celled beings can have souls. Yeah, "begin at conception" anti-choicer.

The birther thing came out of the blue, but really, is it actually any less loopy?

[gorfle]

106. On being smart and conception.

I don't believe in souls, but I believe life begins at conception. I'm pro-choice, in that I think it is perfectly fine to kill zygotes/fetuses/babies before they are born, but I don't try and justify it be dehumanizing the target.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

108. I'll happily dehumanize anything that has no central nervous system, thank you. -nt

[gorfle]

110. What week does that happen at?

I'll happily dehumanize anything that has no central nervous system, thank you.

At what week do human fetuses develop a central nervous system, and does it happen at the same time for every fetus? Is there a way to definitively check for the central nervous system in vitro?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

111. I don't know, but certainly it isn't the first or the second or the third or the fourth.

Therefore that "since conception" thing is poppycock.

[gorfle]

115. Ah...

The reason I use "since conception" is because no one can provide a clear demarcation line of any point between conception and birth.

If you are interested in safeguarding the rights of a human, the safest place to make that demarcation line is at conception. Make that line at any other point prior to birth and you risk killing someone with a "central nervous system".

It's a far easier case to make that we just support the killing of unborn people regardless of their state of development, rather than trying to hedge over their state of development.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

119. Sure. By this reasoning...

Judge: "Well, defendant, we don't have enough evidence to ascertain the amount you owe the plaintiff. We do know it's no less than $5,000 and no more than $8,000. Therefore, you will pay the defendant $1,000,000. Plus court costs. *WHACK* Next!"

[gorfle]

122. I don't follow your analogy.

I think a more appropriate analogy is the death penalty. It's better to have no death penalty and avoid killing innocent people than to have a death penalty that kills innocent people.

Since you can't be certain when this central nervous system is in place, if you want to err on the side of humanity you err towards conception.

Like I said, though, it's a stupid debate. Why get into a futile argument over when a person is a person? Just own up to wanting to kill certain kinds of people. We already do this with criminals, spies, combatants, and in cases of self-defense or defense of property.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

126. "Err towards conception" is not the same as "placint it AT conception".

My analogy was EXACTLY about that. 1,000,000 dollars was OUTSIDE the range of POSSIBLE true values, just as "at conception" is.

[gorfle]

129. OK...

So where do you definitively draw the line then?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

130. Go read "Billions and Billions" by Carl Sagan.

One of its chapters says what I think about the subject pretty much down pat. The others are just kick-ass and excellent food for thought overall.

Edited for wrong book title. Although "The Demon-Haunted World" is an excellent read as well.

[gorfle]

136. Care to summarize what you think for me?

Thanks.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

137. Long answer in link. Short answer below.

http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml

Short answer: six months, which happens to be exactly where Roe vs. Wade drew the line.

DO read the link. It's that one chapter from the book, in toto.

[gorfle]

141. I read the link.

I find the article to be well reasoned. However, the meat and potatoes is here:

"The trouble with these particular developmental milestones is not just that they're arbitrary. More troubling is the fact that none of them involves uniquely human characteristics--apart from the superficial matter of facial appearance. All animals respond to stimuli and move of their own volition. Large numbers are able to breathe. But that doesn't stop us from slaughtering them by the billions. Reflexes and motion are not what make us human."

It is this exact arbitrary nature of the problem that makes me reject the arbitrary notion of "6 months = person". To me, it's far easier to ignore the problem of trying to define what makes a person and just simply sanction the killings of unborn people.

[Alcibiades]

121. It depends

On whether you focus on when development is complete or when it begins. The fetus does not develop its own control over its bodily functions until week 27. It begins to form in week five. It's a complex system, and takes a long time to get done, which is one of the reason it's so vulnerable to birth defects.

And yes, the stages of fetal development are the same in every pregnancy, unless something is very wrong.

[gorfle]

123. 50% survival at week 24.

With current medical technology, fetuses born at week 24 have a 50% chance of survival.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prenatal_development_table.svg

No doubt as medical technology advances, this date will be earlier and earlier.

I think it's a waste of effort to try and haggle over which nano-second during development a person is a person or not.

Just classify the unborn as another class of people we have decided it is OK to kill on a whim and be done with it.

[Alcibiades]

142. Those are a very small percentage of abortions

Abortion is generally not performed after the 20th or 21st week, with a few exceptions.

[Soylent Brice]

76. yeah, i was wondering about that one last week.

that one went into overdrive last week.

[AndyA]

117. I'm glad for that one.

That member added nothing to the thread, but seemed to enjoy attacking and stirring things up.

[varelse]

95. Oh my god

FINALLY

[Ignis]

98. Wow.

That one was a long time coming. It must have been an exciting weekend on DU.

[Soylent Brice]

75. well well...

would ya look at that...

[still_one]

2. You indicate she is a brillant girl. Funny that she would not have used birth control then

I am all for choice, but abortion is a very personal decision, and what works for one person is not necessarily right for someone else.

In fact presenting this very personal issue as though it is a wonderful thing because it opens the door to enormous opportunities I don't necessarily agree with. Abortion should NOT a form of birth control, it should be rare, but legal

Birth Control when used properly eliminates the need for most abortions

[Barack_America]

1. There is no form of birth control that is 100% effective.

And we all know that the "abstinence only" movement has failed.

2. I do not believe the OP stated the woman had not been using birth control, that is your assumption.

[Robb]

5. Statistically speaking, a reasonable assumption though. nt

[zanne]

13. I agree with Barack_America.

There was no mention of not using birth control. The responding poster was being judgmental and arrogant.

[still_one]

17. I guess, YOU calling ME judgemental and arrogant, makes YOU also judgmental and arrogant

Isn't everyone on any forum who posts, judgmental? I am not even sure what the purpose of
the OPs post is. Incidental, birth control is extremely effective. The crap about nothing is 100% effective, may be statistically true, but if done correctly, it isn't an issue. In fact with items such as the morning after pill, it shouldn't even be an issue

What grips me most about the post, is the that the abortion is presented as a wonderful thing, when in fact it is a tragedy that it had to happen

As I said I am very pro choice, even for partial birth abortions, which only occur if the life of the Mother is in danger, however, the act of abortion itself is a tragedy in MY VIEW, damn, there I go again being judgmental and arrogant

[EndersDame]

21. One of my friends cannot take oral contraceptives and her partner's condom broke

and she didnt realize that it had a tear. She would have blackouts and tried several different ones. She had the kid but that was her choice. not all abortions are tragedies the simple truth is that it is a procedure that takes less than ten minutes to preform and most often the embryo is less than a size of a rice krispy. I think it cheapens life when one equate that lump of cells with a living breathing child

[still_one]

24. You don't think an abortion is a tragedy, great, that is your view. It isn't everyones view

That doesn't mean abortion shouldn't be legal, safe and rare, but if your implying that abortion should be used as a form of birth control, that I disagree with. There are a lot safer forms, including the morning after pill, which would in fact make abortion a non-issue in the first place

As far as your example about she didn't realize it had a tear, I wouldn't necessarily expect her to, but HE sure should have realized it, and frankly if you buy a good quality condom, it is statistically very rare to break

[kestrel91316]

26. Since when is the morning after pill always available in time, and 100% effective?

Are you aware that a lot of women simply can't get it because of meddling busybodies who "oppose abortion" just like you?

[still_one]

38. Obviously you have a problem with COMPREHENSION. I HAVE NEVER BEEN OPPOSED TO ABORTION

and if you read my post you would see that I made that very clear

Stop trying to distort or misrepresent MY views

Don't tell me what I am or am not, you don't know me, and you have NO IDEA

[PeaceNikki]

40. You are not REALLY pro-choice. You're pro-choice with conditions.

Anyone who propagates the bullshit "abortion as a form of birth control" meme is clueless and judgmental. You have clearly no idea at ALL and are beyond hope. What an absolutely stupid notion.

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/reproductive_rights/2007/10/abortion-as-a-1.html

Women -- I mean, what are we like? Having abortions for totally trivial reasons, like not wanting to be pregnant! You'd think by now we'd have got it into our heads that abortions are only for women who really deserve them, which basically means anyone who has been raped (though not according to the Vatican) or can show that they're really, really upset.

What does it mean to use abortion as "form of birth control" anyway? I assume that, when people say this, they envision a woman who routinely has unprotected sex knowing she doesn't want to have a child, and who then resorts to an abortion should she become pregnant. (Of course, the accusation wholly ignores the responsibility of the male partner, who presumably also "uses abortion as a form of birth control" by failing to use a condom.)

But before hurling the old "abortion as birth control" accusation, it's important to be aware of the facts. Women are at risk of pregnancy for over three decades of their lives, and they spend most of this time trying to avoid becoming pregnant.

So why do women end up needing abortions? My hunch is that most women (1) use contraception, but do so imperfectly; (2) practice abstinence, but do so imperfectly; or (3) some combination of (1) and (2). Indeed, in busting the myth that "women are using abortion as birth control," the Guttmacher Institute points out:

Half of all women getting abortions report that contraception was used during the month they became pregnant. Some of these couples had used the method improperly; some had forgotten or neglected to use it on the particular occasion they conceived; and some had used a contraceptive that failed. No contraceptive method prevents pregnancy 100% of the time.

If abortion were used as a primary method of birth control, a typical woman would have at least two or three pregnancies per year -- 30 or more during her lifetime.

In fact, most women who have abortions have had no previous abortions (52%) or only one previous abortion (26%). Considering that most women are fertile for over 30 years, and that birth control is not perfect, the likelihood of having one or two unintended pregnancies is very high.

Do you know any woman who has had thirty abortions? Neither do I.

[still_one]

42. I NEVER made any conditions on someone else. You jump to inane conclusions

and I never said abortion should be used as birth control, I was asking someone, NOT YOU, if that is what THEY were implying

Go back to school and take logic and comprehension

[zanne]

56. Give it up and learn from this. nt

[still_one]

64. Give what up? I have been called a lot of things on this thread, all which are LIES

People have said I am against abortion, and advocate using abortion as birth control, and other distortions. Either people have a problem with comprehension, or are intentionally distorting what I said

My view is simply this. Abortion should be safe and legal

I have NEVER wavered from that position

[mudplanet]

77. The morning after pill IS abortion. It just isn't surgical abortion.

[madfloridian]

84. That's what the Catholic bishops tell us, you know.

[fizzgig]

85. wrong

the morning after pill is basically a higher dose of regular birth control pills designed to prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterine lining. if the eggs already implanted, it does not work.

try again

[zanne]

55. If you weren't so busy being defensive...

You could take an objective look at your post and realize that you DID sound arrogant and judgmental. It might serve you well in the future. Sometimes we learn from our mistakes. People who are overly sensitive do not.

[csziggy]

139. Even surgical birth control is not 100% effective

The only way to be sure not to conceive is to remove the ovaries and testicles or to never have sex. Even vasectomies and tubal ligations can fail to be 100% effective. (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/birth-control-effectiveness-chart-22710.htm)

For a statistically low chance that a chosen form of birth control might not have been effective, there would be no indication early enough that the use of the morning after pill would be needed, so that is not even a consideration if a woman is using birth control.

I was on birth control which failed. I had never planned on having children and if abortion had not been available there is a chance I would have attempted to do one myself or attempted suicide. Although it took some doctor shopping, I not only got an abortion, I also had my tubes tied - most doctors did not consider a woman was capable of electing to never have a child at the age of twenty four.

Imagine my horror twenty years later to learn that tubals could fail, especially that long after one had been performed. Until I had my uterus and ovaries removed (for other medical reasons) I had nightmares about getting pregnant at the age of fifty and not realizing soon enough to legally abort it. Since I was in perimenopause, my periods were erratic enough that it could have happened.

I am wondering why you are using a right wing phrase such as "partial birth abortion" - that is not a medical term so where you did get it and why do you use it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. If she is so brilliant wouldn't it be fair to assume she would be smart enough

to use birth control?

[Barack_America]

35. Yes, one would hope she thought to put a condom on her penis.

Considering all birth control responsibilities and failures belong to women.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. When I was of child bearing age, I took responsibility for birth control

And that included making sure HIS penis was covered with a condom. The thought of getting pregnant was a pretty powerful incentive.

[still_one]

39. There are other things to be concerned about other then pregnancy, such as VD and HIV

It is both peoples responsibility

[debbierlus]

131. Seeing as if you have NO idea whether or not she used birth control and it failed

This is a pretty pointless post.

And, sometimes, people just make mistakes.

[polly7]

53. LOL. nt.

:thumbsup:

[cbdo2007]

91. Rather, one would hope she only has sex with penises that have condoms on them.

Or is that not her responsiblity either? She just randomly has covered or uncovered penises available and she has no control over which ones she sleeps with or not?

It's funny (not really) how the abortion argument seems to center around control and women wanting to control what they do with their bodies, yet the ultimate sign that a woman has absolutely no control over her body is when she accidentally gets pregnant. It always seems to be the guys fault that a girl chooses to have sex with him even though he's irresponsible.

[EndersDame]

18. condoms have been known to break

[still_one]

22. yeah, and it is extremely rare when used properly, and there are a lot of birth control options out

there also. The thing that disturbed me the most about this post, wasn't the abortion, it was the implication that the abortion was a wonderful thing

Any time a person has an abortion, it is a tragedy.

[Barack_America]

23. Is it the fault of a teenage girl if her partner does not know how to use a condom properly?

Also, FYI, hormonal birth control is contraindicated for many women who have coagulation disorders. Use of hormonal bc by such women can be fatal and few doctors would risk prescribing them.

[PeaceNikki]

46. Abortion is a moral and positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, and protects families.

[debbierlus]

134. Thank you. I thought I was on Free Republic. No wonder the right has such an easy time

taking away women's rights....

With friends like these....

[Hell Hath No Fury]

74. "Any time a person has an abortion, it is a tragedy."

That is simply your feelings on the subject and not an objective view.

[Scout]

103. hell, sometimes they even come off INSIDE you, and if the man

(and i use the term loosely) doesn't tell you, you might not find it until the next evening when you are playing softball, and you squat down at home plate and assume your position as catcher, and suddenly feel the strangest feeling ... then run to the bathroom between innings and discover yesterday's condom....

:grr:

[gorfle]

109. LOL

and i use the term loosely

Apparently very loosely. :)

Word of advice though seriously: I dated a smart girl once who every time after sex she would feel the condom on me after I pulled out to make sure it was still there and unbroken.

[Scout]

113. well, i was 19 at the time, and silly me didn't yet know from personal experience

what complete selfish, spineless assholes some men are. i learned that i must check the condom myself... thank goddess i didn't end up pregnant, or i'd have had to kill him ;)

haven't been with that one for years, and years, and years ... some other poor woman stuck herself with him :rofl:

i've got one of the good ones now though....

[kestrel91316]

25. Why on earth would you blithely assume she used no birth control.

Even the pill is not 100% effective. Abortion is a BACKUP method of birth control when the primary method fails.

You flunked this one.

[still_one]

41. I made no assumption about the pill, there are also condoms, diaphrams, and other methods

Most are over 95% effective

flunked what?

and why do you assume she used birth control

Look on the statistics of birth control and their effectiveness

[cali]

28. brilliance doesn't have much to do with it.

and screw the rare and legal shit. Abortion should be available and legal. Yes, there are better forms of bc but abortion is a form of bc and I'm sick of people making moral judgments about it.

[Scout]

102. +100 "screw the rare and legal shit. Abortion should be available and legal" n/t

[Greyhound]

49. So what? Do you not get that this is none of your business? n/t

[Hekate]

94. In my lifetime I've known women to get pregnant while using every known method of BC...

... including one woman who had a tubal ligation after she felt her family was complete at child #5, and then got preggers again. Not to mention my SIL who got pregnant after my brother's vasectomy because he still had some of those little swimmers in his system.

Intelligent, well-informed women who do their best can still be tripped up.

We are adults. We are moral agents. We know our own lives.

Don't. Judge.

Hekate

[varelse]

96. Smart people make mistakes just like everyone else (nt)

[debbierlus]

133. Smart people make mistakes all the time.

Birth control failure or no abortion?

I love this 'liberal' board.

And, save the response. I was a teen mother at 15, so I know ALL about taking responsibility for ones actions.

And, after having gone through THAT, my opinion is to leave the judgement out of it and support the woman, sans your moral judgements.

It is the rare woman who uses abortion as birth control.

[TwilightGardener]

3. "Best thing she's ever done". Well, it may have been the best choice for her, but

that's an odd way to describe it.

[lightningandsnow]

4. I meant to say one of the best decisions she's ever made.

I'll change it.

[eilen]

11. Perhaps the poster meant to say

"she made the best choice for her life at this time."

And anyway, I think it is no one's business why a person has an abortion or termination of pregnancy. It's their body and their business. The only choice people make that affect others is when they have the baby and then you hear the men bitch about having to pay child support and the poor child is treated like a monthly bill rather than an investment for the future. If a woman or girl (in this case) aborts (particularly in the first trimester during which most spontaneous miscarriages occur anyway), that is her business. Can you believe that women used to have to have a certain number of children or be of a certain age before a doctor would consent to a tubal ligation? It is remarkable to me that anyone feels they have the right to impinge or weigh in on a woman's right to self determination in regards to healthcare.

[Ms. Toad]

20. Used to???

>>Can you believe that women used to have to have a certain number of children or be of a certain age before a doctor would consent to a tubal ligation?<<

A friend of mine just had one in her early thirties, with one child - after her doctor had refused it several times and she finally threatened to perform the procedure herself if he continued to refuse.

[slackmaster]

6. All alternatives would have either torpedoed or significantly delayed her education

She chose an abortion in order to keep her life plans on track.

And yes, it was "elective". It was not "medically necessary".

Kudos to you discussing it in honest language. I salute your friend for taking control of her life.

[rosesaylavee]

7. My nephew and his girlfriend

are finishing their senior year in HS and both have aced the SATs. (My nephew got 100% in the math portion) Smart kids but dopey enough to get pregnant. And decided to go thru the with the birth as their mothers are both 'born again' and they insisted there were no other options. What a mess. The girl is not sleeping or not getting enough sleep as the baby only sleeps 4 hours at a time, and the plans for college for both of them are up in the air. Lots of immature game playing and lots of nasty guilt trips being flung about.

Don't get me wrong, I think abortion is a very serious step. I never had one for myself. But bringing a child into a world before you are able to support it in any viable financial manner or capable emotionally of dealing with the responsibility involved in raising and nurturing another human being... it certainly is a very viable option. That or adoption. But that too requires an emotional maturity to make the decision to do what's right for the child over and above what you perceive your personal needs are.

[Robb]

12. Oooh, that framing makes me uncomfortable.

Having a child and adoption require "an emotional maturity to make the decision to do what's right for the child over and above what is right for you."

Only because that implies that having an abortion means you lack the emotional maturity to do what's right for a child over and above what is right for you. It may well be so in some cases, but it's a troubling way to put it, especially in context of the OP, a young woman who made the decision to do what was best for her.

It sort of frames abortion as a selfish act for immature people. Which I'm sure wasn't your intention, but it made me squirm.

[rosesaylavee]

14. Not my intention AT ALL.

Just the opposite in fact. 'Giving a child up for adoption' is an act of maturity. It is a heart wrenching decision and it does take a special person to be able to do that. And before I get flamed for that, I do realize that some people do give children up for adoption for other reasons that are selfish but I don't think that is the norm.

And edit to add after rereading your response: Abortion is something I am thankful is a choice granted individuals to make for their set of circumstances. There is no one law that can fit all sizes here at all. And I did not intend anything other than that in my original reply. My response is colored mightily by the mess my born again relatives and this girl's relatives are making for themselves. It is a very creative, very complicated mess and the one that will suffer the most from it is the baby at the center of it all.

[fasttense]

8. Abortion and birth control have rescued many women from an unending life of poverty.

They elevate a woman to someone who can control her biology instead of, like an animal, being controlled by it.

The Republicons want your friend to suffer years of self loathing and failure for her choice. But the truth is very few women who have abortions ever regret them.

Thanks for sharing your story.

[rosesaylavee]

9. Exactly. Thank you for making that point.

[Barack_America]

27. And children too.

Many women who choose abortion in order to protect the futures of the children they already have.

[dipsydoodle]

10. Broadly speaking

I reckon someone would need to be a complete dumbfuck to not get into London Metropolitan University.

A rose by any other name...........main part was originally the Northern Polytechnic. We have a great habit in the UK of renaming stuff to make it sound somewhat grander.

It's singular advantage for some is that it backs onto the Emirates Stadium which is Arsenal's Football ground.

[stray cat]

15. She made a choice

[rurallib]

16. I care less about this young woman's reasons. What I do care about

is that whatever the reason, once she made her choice she was able to go to a hospital and have a safe procedure done by competent, trained professionals.
Her choice wasn't to have the child or suffer at the hands of some back alley abortionist or try to do it herself.
Name one specific male related medical procedure that is subject to criminal prosecution.

[still_one]

19. That SHOULD have been the only point /nt

[metalbot]

30. Anabolic Steroids

In answer to your question (not completely specific to males, but certainly predominantly so).

[Lars39]

66. That's not a medical procedure.

[madfloridian]

89. Good points.

I agree.

[Odin2005]

29. +1. This Stupak BS is all about punishing women that have sex.

Goddamn bastards.

[dgibby]

57. Next step for these idiots: female circumcision.

Wouldn't want women to enjoy sex would we? That's the man's prerogative.:grr: :puke:

[colinmom71]

31. Even if an abortion is solely because the woman doesn't feel she can have a child....

At that time, it is still absolutely *medically necessary* that she receive a safe procedure and appropriate after-care to avoid medical complications. And no, a woman shouldn't be pressured into some guilt complex because terminating a pregnancy can indeed be the better choice in any given situation...

I'm glad your friend was able to make the best choice for herself and that she also received a legal and medically safe abortion.

[tonysam]

32. Then it was a choice. Period.

No problem here with her having it, but face it, it's not quite the same thing as somebody whose life would be lost if she didn't have an abortion or someone who really wanted the child but couldn't for medical reasons.

[Dreamer Tatum]

34. Well, if it's the best decision a 17-year-old ever made, that settles it.

This is one of those "what do you want, a cookie?" threads. Good on your friend. Sounds like her story is one of millions of fork-in-the-road stories that play out every single day.

[lynne]

37. Wouldn't placing the child up for adoption after birth achieve the same result?

- Pregnancy doesn't stop women in this day and age. She could have continued her studies/work and taken off about a month to give birth and place her baby for adoption. Seems to me that would have achieved the same results as it would eliminate the problem of having to deal with a young child while continuing her education.

Adoption is an elective that seems to have been left out of the "elective" debate. However, adoption is certainly another option/choice/elective that should not be discounted.

[still_one]

45. I am pro-choice, and I have been getting slammed for the OP glorifying abortion

I can imagine what your post will bring

[dgibby]

59. No, you're getting slammed because you advocate exempting

abortion as a form of birth control.

[still_one]

61. Bullshit. I NEVER ADVOCATED ABORTION AS A FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL. YOU ARE MISREPRESENTING

and distorting that discussion. That is NOT what I said

HERE IS THE EXACT DIALOGUE I HAD:

The poster said the following:

"One of my friends cannot task oral contraceptives and her partner's condom broke and she didnt realize that it had a tear. She would have blackouts and tried several different ones. She had the kid but that was her choice. not all abortions are tragedies the simple truth is that it is a procedure that takes less than ten minutes to preform and most often the embryo is less than a size of a rice krispy. I think it cheapens life when one equate that lump of cells with a living breathing child"

AND HERE IS MY RESPONSE TO THAT POSTER:

:That doesn't mean abortion shouldn't be legal, safe and rare, but if your implying that abortion should be used as a form of birth control, that I disagree with. There are a lot safer forms, including the morning after pill, which would in fact make abortion a non-issue in the first place"


WHERE IN MY REPSONSE DID I ADVOCATE ABORTION AS A FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL. I WAS SIMPLY ASKING THE POSTER IF THAT WAS WAHT THEY WERE ADVOCATING

GO BACK TO SCHOOL, AND LEARN READING AND COMPREHENSION, BECAUSE IF THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN ARGUE IS LYING ABOUT WHAT I SAID, YOU HAVE MAJOR PROBLEMS

[dgibby]

70. What part of the word "exempting" do you not understand?

I did not say you were advocating abortion as a form of birth control. Quite the opposite.

And speaking of going back to school, perhaps you should take your own advice.

I didn't misrepresent (your term: lying) what you said, and oh , BTW,

STOP YELLING! Use your indoor voice!

[still_one]

93. I am yelling because I have been accussed of some things on this thread that are not true. Yes,

I didn't read your post carefully, and skipped over exemption, and I will eat my snide remarks on that, but even with that I don't advocate what someone else should or should not do with their body.

I personally don't think it should be used as a means of birth control, is not the same thing as saying it should be exempted as such, and I would never vote for any proposition that wanted to do so.

Yes, I appologize for yelling, but I am extremely frustrated by people catorgizing me as something I am not

[dgibby]

99. Thanks.

I said advocating exemption because that's what I understood from reading your posts. My bad. Sorry you're feeling mis-chacterized. I had the same thing happen to me the other day. Felt like I needed an asbestos suit before it was all over!:hug:

[still_one]

107. I am sorry too. We are really on the same side /nt

[Shell Beau]

92. Well I can get slammed too, because I am 100% pro choice, but I don't

think it should be used as a form of birth control. I did know a girl who wouldn't get on the pill and her boyfriend wouldn't use a condom. She had 4 abortions because of it. That I am against. It is careless and irresponsible. It is none of my business why anyone chooses to have an abortion, and I wouldn't want someone to legislate based on that, but it is my personal stance.

Let me add that this girl I know was more like the exception rather than the rule, but it happens.

[Mariana]

50. Sure it would, IF she was lucky and had no complications.

Many, many women have complications during pregnancy and childbirth. Some cause permanent damage to their bodies. Some are life-threatening.

She chose not to take that risk. I think it was a wise decision.

[Arugula Latte]

88. Oh, please, lynne.

Enduring a pregnancy and childbirth is not a very good option for most women with unwanted pregnancies.

[Scout]

105. adoption is not an option if you don't want to be pregnant n/t

[omega minimo]

112. Women are not incubators

[Tailormyst]

127. It's not that easy

I was a product of rape, given up at birth. It effected my Birth Mother for her entire life. Adoption is not always the answer. It's not our right to force any woman to carry a child. That is between her and her doctor. period.

[juno jones]

43. Both my pregnancies occured despite birth control.

The first one, the pill failed (the dosage wasn't high enough to prevent ovulation). The second one was condom failure.

Birth control isn't 100% even if 'Ur doin' it rite'.

[Raven]

44. I suppose that since I am/was a smoker, I won't deserve health

coverage...I suppose if I get a little tipsy one night and trip and fall down, I won't deserve health coverage...I suppose if I do something stupid like getting up on a ladder and I fall, I won't deserve health coverage...I suppose if I shake hands with somebody with the flu, I won't deserve health coverage...this is such a slippery slope! The bottom line to me is: nobody wants to get sick. Nobody wants to have an abortion and nobody wants the government or the insurance companies poking around in their lives deciding what deserves coverage and what does not. Leave my body alone! I will take care of it as best I can and if I pay a health insurance premium, I expect to be able to obtain health care.

[PeaceNikki]

47. Exactly!

And since we're now stopping our tax dollars from going to people who make mistakes, if you leave a candle burning and your cat knocks it over, the fire department won't be sent. If you didn't get your tires replaced in time and your car veers off the highway in a snow storm, find your own fucking EMT.

[Raven]

48. Great examples of how far this can go. What I'm wondering is

where are the perfect people who never make a mistake or a bad judgment and what little shithead on the other end of a telephone makes that decision.

[Withywindle]

51. Thank you for sharing this.

Does your friend know about this website: http://www.imnotsorry.net/

There's a Facebook group linked too. It's a web site for women who have had abortions and do NOT regret it one bit to share their stories.

The idea that abortion is always a "tragedy" that always leaves a woman "traumatized" (or if she's not, she should be!) is a RW misogynist load of crap. I have no doubt there are women who do regret it, and I feel for them, and I hate that they're being used. But there are also plenty who don't, and have no reason to, and their voices deserve to be heard too.

[polly7]

52. My sister was date raped and lo and behold, became pregnant.

She was depressed, suicidal and 16 years old. If she had been forced to carry the fetus she told me flat out she'd kill herself. Give me a living sister over a zygote / embryo any day and *ck anyone who says she was wrong.

Sorry for the rant.

[Odin2005]

58. Hugs for your sis.

:hug:

[dgibby]

63. Same thing happened to my sister,

only it happened back in the dark ages when "good girls" were either forced to go away, have the baby, give it up for adoption, then live a lie for the rest of recorded time, or they were forced to marry the guy(my sister's case) in a "shotgun wedding" ceremony performed by some justice of the peace in some sleazy little hellhole across state lines, then forced to back the date of the secret "elopement" or they were forced into some back alley coat hanger abortion.

In my sister's case, although she was an "A" student, she was forced to quit school (you couldn't be married, much less preggers, in nursing school back then). She was led to believe that she was a "bad" person, that it was all her fault,and that she should be "grateful" because he married her and "saved her reputation". She stayed with him out of guilt and because she felt she "owed" him. To this day, 53 years later, he still blames her for ruining his life, trapping him, and every time he gets drunk (did I mention he's an alcoholic?) denies that he's the father (even though she looks just like his sisters). He also blames her for the fact that he's a serial cheater.

She never told anyone that she was date raped because she was afraid our dad would kill him, so she kept quiet until I asked her a couple of years ago. She was right about our dad. In fact, my mother told me (I was 10yrs old at the time)that she talked him out of killing both of them-he was leaving the house with a loaded rifle late one night and she got between him and the door). She also told me that if I ever did something like that, I wouldn't have to worry about my dad because she'd kill me herself.

Subsequently, my sister was thrown out of the house, and my niece was 18mo old before my dad even spoke to my sister. They finally reconciled, but a lot of damage was done, and things were never, ever the same.

In addition, I forbidden to ever talk about any of this, because of the "shame" brought on the family. One day, I was stopped at school by a 5th grade teacher and grilled about my sister, then told that she was a "bad person" (I was a 4th grader at the time). Of course, I had to lie to the teacher, which got me into trouble with her. Thank gawd I didn't get her in 5th grade!

The bottom line: I NEVER want anyone to ever have to go through what my sister did. We are all (including her daughter) still suffering the consequences of the laws and moral judgments imposed on her at the time. Many lives were ruined and an entire family was torn apart. NO ONE except the woman should have any control over her decision, not her family, not society, not the church, and certainly not the government.

[ChickMagic]

100. OMG

That's an awful story. I remember those days too. We would have schoolmates
who disappeared, and were told they went to live with an aunt. Some came back
after a year, some did not. It was chilling. :scared:

:hug: I hate, hate, hate that happened to your sister. :hug: for her too.

[Hekate]

97. A young woman friend told me how she finally left home and her dad's abuse only to be date raped...

... from which she got pregnant. She was all of 17 or so at the time. Trauma was piled on trauma when she had to travel out of state to even find an abortion clinic, and this was after it was legal.

What you said is not a rant, but the bare truth.

Hekate

[Tailormyst]

128. You sound like a good sister.

I hope she recovered from the trauma, poor thing.

[we can do it]

54. Good For Her and Fuck the Negative Commenters-

[lunatica]

62. It's her right to choose. Period.

[cbdo2007]

65. I don't think it was the best decision for her but that's the point....it's her decision and she can

do whatever she thinks is appropriate.

[zoff]

67. Point well taken.

Since I received the "news" 14 years ago, I think I have the right to enter into this discussion. Otherwise, I stick to my guns: no female genitalia, no say whatsoever, unless your the father of a minor or maybe the father of the baby. We consulted no one but ourselves and our decision went the other way. I have no regrets either, except for financing my divorce lawyer's new yacht. I absolutely adore my (not-so-little-anymore) boy.

[leftyladyfrommo]

68. I think most people I know have had an abortion at one time or another.

Its a lot more common than you might think.

People are human. They make mistakes - especially in the heat of the moment when all rational thought seems to just vanish.

No one should have to pay the whole rest of their lives for a mistake.

[madfloridian]

78. "tired of people clinging on to horrific medical stories"

Well, you see, all the "horrific stories" won't be told much longer. Those "horrific" stories means a woman will have to afford tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars and continue a pregnancy that will end in tragedy.

Those "horror" stories are quickly becoming stories of what is or soon will be illegal.

Those here who are bragging about abortions to put down those of us who think women should have those rights is simply sickening.

It is a skewed argument. Twice today I have read posts all chirpy and happy about abortions. You just don't get it.

Chirpy and happy as rights are being taken away...sickening.

[RoadRage]

79. Maybe i'm the only poster on DU who doesn't "applaud" abortion..

There are ways to prevent most pregnancies, and perhaps your friend did.. but you didn't mention it in your story. Further, there are a lot of people in this country who would like to adopt.. and that was an option that would have also given her the chance to continue her studies.

I think abortion should be legal, but I'm not going to start giving DU posters High-Fives when they & their friends are having abortions. I'm probably in the minority here on DU, but frankly - i'm OK with that.

[madfloridian]

80. It is hurting the fight to keep abortion legal. Why the sudden cheerleading?

I agree with you.

It is hurting the women who will be forced by law and financial circumstances to carry to term when the baby can't live.

Referring to abortions in that way harms all women.

I post all the time about keeping the rights to have one. This and another post I read today just hurt the cause by making it truly sound like "plastic surgery".

I wonder at the reasoning.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

81. If it weren't for the anti-woman fanatics, what you call "applause" and "high-fiving"...

...wouldn't be necessary.

[RoadRage]

116. Anti-Woman Fanatics don't make "high-fiving" this thread neccessary..

Anti-abortion protesters didn't force this poster to come in here to "celebrate" her friends abortion.. she did that on her own. Frankly, it cheapens the whole argument, and gives those on the other side more ammo when they say that people who are "pro abortion" think of it as nothing more then getting a boob job. It cheapens it IMO. You're welcome to yours.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

120. She wasn't celebrating, She was making a POINT. Using a real life event to boost her position.

Much different from "celebrating".

And you KNOW that.

[RoadRage]

124. What you call making a point, I call "Celebrating".

Again.. you're entitled to your opinion, and I respect it. I just see this thread differently.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

125. Whoa, deja vu. -nt

[CTyankee]

114. WOMEN ARE NOT BROOD MARES. They alread HAVE the option of adoption.

But this is something that some women simply cannot do for emotional/mental health reasons. It is a very cavalier attitude indeed to tell a woman she should put aside her goals in life for a pregnancy (that is 10x more dangerous to her health than a first trimester abortion) and then go through the trauma of giving birth and immediately handing over the child forever to someone else.

Several years ago I talked with a retired social worker who worked with women who had given up a child for adoption. She talked about their grieving and remorse, how they marked the birthday of the child they gave up every year with unbearable sadness. It infuriates me when people yak on about how great this option is for a woman facing an unplanned and completely unwanted pregnancy...

[RoadRage]

118. OK..

I'll agree that having a child can be dangerous - but so is abortion. So throw on a damn condem and be SAFE all the way around. Or don't.. but frankly, don't stand in line hoping for applause from every liberal around when your friend goes on a message board and asks for accolades because of this.

Second, I'm sure that many women are saddend by the thought of the children they gave up for adoption (my mother was adopted).. but i'm sure that an equal percentage have similar feelings about pregnancy's that they abort as well. I know of 3 friends that have had abortions.. all suffered depression of varying degrees after the proceedure - 2 are still happy with the decision, 1 is not and regrets it terribly.

My point being that arguing that giving a child up for adoption causes remorse but that having an abortion does not just doesn't add up.

And, to my original point.. I'm pro-choice... i'm perhaps just not "pro applauding abortion for the sake of it".

[ieoeja]

132. It's not about applausing abortion.

It's about removing the undeserved stigma.

You say all three women you know who had abortions felt depressed about it. And that one regrets it terribly. Did it never occur to you that their depression, and the one's regret, would have never been there had they not had to listen to a bunch of holier-than-thou assholes telling them abortion is wrong and evil?

[CTyankee]

138. I wasn't applauding anything, so please don't put me in that category.

It is my belief that only the woman herself can make that judgment. Women are moral agents and can make decisions and, like any other decision, live with it. I have known many women who have had abortions and only one who regretted it. She was married and felt her husband had coerced her because he felt they could not afford a second child. She went on to have another child a couple of years later.

Legal abortion is the safest surgical procedure there is. To satisfy yourself with my statement go to the website of the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which specializes in reproductive health statistics, both here and all over the world. It is considered the "gold standard" of statistical research and is used by public health officials all over the U.S. AGI has useful, helpful reports on many, many facets of reproductive health and I'm sure they have a recent one of attitudes that women have about their own abortions. I encourage your research with this group...

[ecstatic]

82. People will always find something to criticize

whether it's the choice a woman makes with her own body, or her hair color. The key is to ignore it and not let their words consume you or get you down.

[madfloridian]

83. Are you actually attacking women who had these horror stories?

It sounds like you are, and it is shameful.

"I'm tired of people clinging on to horrific medical stories where the baby would have been otherwise very much wanted. Framing this as the "acceptable" or "more justified" form of abortion contributes to marginalizing people like my friend. Who does not regret her abortion."

Really?

[MH1]

86. Not to mention the canard, oft repeated by "pro-choice" people

that for some reason abortion is a horrific experience that will emotionally affect the woman for years.

Um, it's a surgery. If early enough, even a fairly minor surgery (with the potential for major complications, true, so not to be taken too lightly - medically - at the time). So why should this be such the big deal that everyone makes it out to be? And why do so-called "pro-choice" people jump on that bandwagon?

[cbdo2007]

90. This isn't a reference to the abortion itself.

Aren't women put to sleep anyways during the actual procedure?

The emotional aspect of it comes from losing a child, which is a very REAL thing that many women experience not just following abortion but also miscarriage.

People who have kids and have not experienced losing a child before it was born don't really understand this and tend to brush it off as not that big of a deal and that the woman just needs to get over it. Many times this leads to sever depression and other mental illness because most women don't see their fetus as just a ball of tissue but as their baby.

[CTyankee]

140. I am sure you feel this way but you are not "most women."

And neither am I. Please go and do statistical research on this question. Here is an article which may be of interest to you: http://www.alanguttmacherinstitute.org/pubs/gpr/09/3/gpr090308.html#boxref2

[madfloridian]

87. I think these are the horror stories you are belittling.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/5337

[beevul]

135. Ones body...ones choice. Period.

To pierce (I have none) to tatoo (I have none) to ingest/inhale into as one sees fit (tobacco smoke, MJ smoke, vegetables or meat, alcohol, soda, fast food etc), the right to decide whether one wishes to give birth/be pregnant (I don't have a uterus).

Ones body should ALWAYS be sovreign.

Without those basic fundamental freedoms, what good are the rights to vote or speak freely?


So simple a concept, yet so many have troubles with it.

On edit: Good on your friend for successfully keeping control of her life and plans. And bad on those that would condemn it.