Have you noticed the OTHER talking point at DU? "Abortion as a form of birth control".

[PeaceNikki]

This is also a fairly new talking point and also from the same religious right crowd who throw around the http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7158014">Abortion is "elective", like "plastic surgery" crap.

The problem with this is that it's bullshit and meant to evoke shock and further demonize women. Abortion is a moral and positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, and protects families.

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/reproductive_rights/2007/10/abortion-as-a-1.html

Women -- I mean, what are we like? Having abortions for totally trivial reasons, like not wanting to be pregnant! You'd think by now we'd have got it into our heads that abortions are only for women who really deserve them, which basically means anyone who has been raped (though not according to the Vatican) or can show that they're really, really upset.

What does it mean to use abortion as "form of birth control" anyway? I assume that, when people say this, they envision a woman who routinely has unprotected sex knowing she doesn't want to have a child, and who then resorts to an abortion should she become pregnant. (Of course, the accusation wholly ignores the responsibility of the male partner, who presumably also "uses abortion as a form of birth control" by failing to use a condom.)

But before hurling the old "abortion as birth control" accusation, it's important to be aware of the facts. Women are at risk of pregnancy for over three decades of their lives, and they spend most of this time trying to avoid becoming pregnant.
So why do women end up needing abortions? My hunch is that most women (1) use contraception, but do so imperfectly; (2) practice abstinence, but do so imperfectly; or (3) some combination of (1) and (2). Indeed, in busting the myth that "women are using abortion as birth control," the Guttmacher Institute points out:

Half of all women getting abortions report that contraception was used during the month they became pregnant. Some of these couples had used the method improperly; some had forgotten or neglected to use it on the particular occasion they conceived; and some had used a contraceptive that failed. No contraceptive method prevents pregnancy 100% of the time.

If abortion were used as a primary method of birth control, a typical woman would have at least two or three pregnancies per year -- 30 or more during her lifetime.

In fact, most women who have abortions have had no previous abortions (52%) or only one previous abortion (26%). Considering that most women are fertile for over 30 years, and that birth control is not perfect, the likelihood of having one or two unintended pregnancies is very high.

Do you know any woman who has had thirty abortions? Neither do I.

We can trust women to exercise their sensible moral judgment; we can trust doctors to exercise their professional medical judgment, and that’s all we need to regulate the process. Any attempts to restrict access to full reproductive care are injecting religious beliefs into health decisions. It's a frightening precedent to set and should be of concern to everyone.

[tonysam]

1. Abortion always HAS been a form of birth control--what it isn't is

contraception. Both exist to prevent an unwanted birth, i.e., it is birth control.

What in the hell is wrong with these bloggers? They don't even know what they are talking about.

[PeaceNikki]

6. You are 100% correct.

To (almost) quote Kerrytravelers from another thread

"In the abortion debate, the {term} {birth control} is being used to make a very clear anti-choice point. The rw are not concerned with medical terminology, but is simply manipulating medical terminology for their ideology purposes. I, for one, have no intention to assist them in their efforts. Our language needs to be clear and simple. Pro-choice. Period."

[BrklynLiberal]

11. That exact form of language manipulation is what has given the repukes any

and all advantage they have had for decades.

They are perfect when it comes to framing the debate.
Grover Norquist and Frank Luntz have been experts at showing the repukes how to control the issues using language.
http://blog.buzzflash.com/honors/212
Frank Luntz Manipulates Words to GOP Advantage on Health Care


The Democrats have not even begun to learn that lesson, even though George Lakoff has been preaching it for years.
They simply refuse to learn...or are not truly interested in winning the "hearts and minds" of the electorate and
really getting their message out there.
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml
Framing the issues: UC Berkeley professor George Lakoff tells how conservatives use language to dominate politics

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/08/25_lakoff.shtml
Linguistics professor George Lakoff dissects the "war on terror" and other conservative catchphrases

[PeaceNikki]

15. Exactly!

They've also done it with "socialist(ism)", too.

Totally off-topic, but a great read: http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/42448437.html">Here, Socialism meant honest, frugal government. :)

[BrklynLiberal]

19. Thanks for that link.

[KakistocracyHater]

60. Yes, it's why I always try to correct anyone who says 'abortion clinic'

it is a women's health clinic. I also point out that radical Christians call ALL FORMS OF BIRTH CONTROL "abortion": yes the regular pills are "abortion" to Quiverfulls. Same with iud, but they know because of that recent thread.

http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

"How does the Pill work?

The Pill has three mechanisms of action which can easily be looked up in the Physician's Desk Reference.

1) Sometimes, the Pill suppresses ovulation. When this happens, an egg is not released and conception cannot occur. (It's important to read on and find out about the high rates of breakthrough ovulation. When ovulation is not suppressed, pregnancy can occur.)

2) The Pill also works to thicken the woman's cervical mucus which can "restrict" sperm from moving up the reproductive tract toward the egg.

3) One way the Pill causes early abortions is that it interfers with the flexing motions and the cilia movement of the fallopian tubes. These changes slow the transportation of newly conceived child from the fallopian tubes to the womb. Unfortunately, many small babies starve to death in the fallopian tubes because chemicals caused changes that prevented them from reaching the womb in time to be nourished.

4) Another way the Pill causes early abortions: If your tiny baby survives the ride down the fallopian tube to your womb, the Pill will almost always cause the endometrium (the lining of your uterus) to reject your child. Chemical reactions often cause the lining of your womb to become thin, shriveled and unable to support implantation of your newly conceived child.

This means that in almost every case, your new child will not be able to attach to the wall of your womb where he or she would normally live, grow and receive nourishment for 9 months. This means your tiny baby will starve to death and his or her remains will be passed along in your next bleeding cycle. (The "Study of Abortion Deaths Commission" estimates that this happens in women in America who use the Pill approximately 1 to 4 million times each year.)

The chemicals that cause these early abortions are called abortifacients which is the medical term for any chemical agent that causes an abortion."

Depo-Provera, Norplant and IUDs

Depo-Provera and Norplant both use chemicals that work in very simlar ways on a woman's body and womb. Depo-Provera and Norplant are also considered chemical abortifacients.

IUDs or Intra-Uterine Devices, are small plastic devices that are inserted into the womb. Some IUDs contain copper or a time released hormone. It is believed that the IUD causes a low grade inflammation in the lining of the womb. As a result, the lining of the womb is imperfect and the fertilized egg will not implant. (Source: This paragraph on IUDs is quoted directly from the Calgary Regional Health Authority's web site.)

Because of the chemical effect an IUD has on a woman's womb, tiny babies are aborted. Therefore, IUDs are also considered abortifacients.

Breakthrough ovulation proved long ago . . .

Birth control advocates and manufacturers of the Pill have known these facts for years. Have they done a very good job of informing women about how the Pill really works? (Please email us and let us know if you were aware of how the Pill worked before you read this.)

When chemists devised the Pill that debuted in 1960, they gave it a huge dose of a chemical that caused most women's ovaries to stop secreting eggs (i.e., to stop ovulation). The theory was "no egg, no pregnancy."

However, some women continued to release eggs and get pregnant while on the original Pill. (Studies have shown that an even higher percentage of women release eggs while using today's newer, re-formulated Pills. More about today's Pills in a moment.)

In her award winning study of women taking the earlier high dose Pills, Dutch gynecologist Dr. Nine Van der Vange showed "proof of ovulation based on ultrasound exams and hormonal indicators occurred in about 4.7% of the cycles studied." (Source: Sterns, Dr. David, "How the Pill and the IUD Work: Gambling with Life," American Life League, PO Box 1350, Stafford, VA 22555)

And the "Textbook of Contraceptive Practice" states that, "Among women who have been followed over a considerable number of cycles, breakthrough ovulations occur in 2 to 10 percent of cycles." (Source: Dr. J. Peel & Dr. Malcolm Potts, Textbook of Contraceptive Practice, 1969, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press)

Please note that these references are to the lower breakthrough ovulation rates of the Pills of the 1960's. The new Pills of the 1990's work differently and have much higher breakthrough ovulation rates. This will be explained as you read on.



Why the big secret?

Why aren't most women aware that the Pill causes early abortions? Let's look at the large pharmaceutical companies who advertise, market and sell the Pill. They make huge profits from the Pill -- and they'll continue to make mega-profits -- if women are convinced they're not getting pregnant and they keep buying and taking the Pill everyday. But are they being honest with you? Have they clearly explained that their products cause millions of early chemical abortions each year?

The New Pills: Much Higher Rates of Breakthrough Ovulation . . .

The original Pill of the 1960's had to be modified due to harmful side effects that women were experiencing because of the powerful chemicals. All versions of today's "Combination Pill" have a reduced hormonal content. When compared to the Pills of the 1960's and 1970's, this reduces the chance of harmful side effects for women, but it also increases their chances of ovulating and conceiving a son or daughter.

Dr. Ronald Chez, a scientist at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), publicly stated that the new Pills of today, with their lower estrogen dose, allow ovulation up to 50% of the time! (Source: Sterns, David, M.D., Sterns, Gina, R.N., B.S.N., Yaksich, Pamela, "Gambling with Life, How the I.U.D. and 'The Pill' Work" (www.top.net/vitalsigns).

With these newer Pills, simply missing one tablet, or failing to take the Pill at the same time each day increases the chances of breakthrough ovulation. Reactions with other drugs increases the chances of breakthrough ovulation, especially with caffeine and nicotine, or some prescription medicine (Source: "Abortifacient Contraception: The Pharmaceutical Holocaust" by Dr. Rudolf Ehmann, Human Life Intl., 1993, p.15).

Makers of the new "mini-pill" claim it does not have the side effects of the combination pill. However, they don't tell you that scientific research shows the mini-pill does not stop ovulation at all in 67-81% of the women who use it, so the probability of conception is much higher. (Source: Tonti-Fillippini, Nicholas, Linacre Quarterly, 1995)



Breakthrough Ovulation Estimates for other "Birth Control" Methods:

1) Norplant has breakthrough ovulation 50-65% of the time.

2) Depo-Provera has breakthrough ovulation 40-60% of the time.

3) The IUD has breakthrough ovulation 100% of the time.

4) With over 17 million American women using the Pill and other chemical abortifacients, it is estimated that breakthough ovulation and pregnany occurs so often . . . that between 7 to 12 million newly conceived children are killed by chemical abortions in the womb each year. And most of these women never even knew they were pregnant.

(Sources for the four points listed under Breakthrough Ovulation Estimates above are as follows: 1) Hilgers, Dr. Thomas, "Norplant" Linacre Quarterly, 1993, p.64-69. 2) "Infant Homicides Through Contraceptives," 1994 by the Study of Abortion Deaths Ad Hoc Commission - Bardstown, KY. Ph: 502-348-3963. 3) ibid. 4) ibid.)



Betrayed!

If you are taking these products to avoid pregnancy (and abortion), now you know that the makers and promoters of "birth control" products have betrayed you and your children. It has been proven many times that these products do not completely stop ovulation and conception. In fact, depending upon the product you're using, you could be at risk of ending the life of a newly conceived son or daughter every month by birth control's chemical abortions.



More Proof . . .

The Food and Drug Administration stated in 1978 that:

Combination oral contraceptives . . . alterations in the genital tract including changes in the . . . endometrium (which reduce the likelihood of implantation) . . . but progestogen only contraceptives are known to alter the cervical mucus, exert a progestational effect on the endometrium, interfering with implantation. (Emphasis added)



Medical Publications confirm the facts . . .

"The Physicians' Desk Reference" quoted a Searle brochure (Searle is a major pharmaceutical manufacturer of the Pill) which states that the mini-pill: makes the womb (uterus) less receptive to any fertilized egg that reaches it. (Emphasis added)

"Nursing '85 Drug Handbook" states:
Progestogen...also caused endometrial changes that prevent implantation of the fertilized ovum. (Emphasis added)

"The Pill - How Does It Work?" By Albert D. Lorincz, M.D.: Cites a study of 1,200 women given a daily amount of progestogen equivalent to many birth control pills. 60% of them ovulated.

"Birth Control: Why Are They Lying to Women?" By J.C. Espinoza, M.D. (page 27) cites research which showed a 30% ovulation rate in women taking a combined Pill preparation.



From Birth Control Advocates

Lawyers from organizations that promote abortion have admitted in print and in legal briefs that these products cause abortions. A Tulane Law School Professor wrote:

...nearly all birth control devices, except the diaphragm and the condom, operate between the time of conception and implantation... (Emphasis added)

Attorney Frank Sussman argued in the U.S. Supreme Court:
...IUDs low dose birth control pills...act as abortifacients."

There's more at the link.

[earth mom]

39. NO-Abortion is NOT birth control. That is a fundie talking point and does not belong on this thread

:puke:

[PeaceNikki]

40. It is in the literal sense of controlling the number of births.

The poster is correct in that and that it is not used as "contraception" as the religious right implies with this talking point.

[mopinko]

2. might be new at du, but it is as old

as st ronnie's bones. was even popular in st ronnie's day to insist that russian women most definitely had them all the time, because they didn't have the american medical marvels over there.

[Ohio Joe]

3. I don't get it

I have problems enough controlling my own life, I just can't understand the incessant need some guys have to want to control women.

[Hepburn]

5. +1

[The Straight Story]

7. I don't understand why people try to control other peoples' lives/choices period

Yet I see it all the time...

[Codeine]

10. Not just guys.

I think there are actually more anti-abortion women in the US now than men.

[PeaceNikki]

12. And the reality of it is that MANY would choose abortion if they were in a "bad spot".

This is an amazing article by one of my very favorite authors: http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html ">"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" When the Anti-Choice Choose

Abortion is a highly personal decision that many women are sure they'll never have to think about until they're suddenly faced with an unexpected pregnancy. But this can happen to anyone, including women who are strongly anti-choice. So what does an anti-choice woman do when she experiences an unwanted pregnancy herself? Often, she will grin and bear it, so to speak, but frequently, she opts for the solution she would deny to other women -- abortion.

In the spring of 2000, I collected the following anecdotes directly from abortion doctors and other clinic staff in North America, Australia, and Europe. The stories are presented in the providers' own words, with minor editing for grammar, clarity, and brevity. Names have been omitted to protect privacy.

"I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)

"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

...

Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons. Anti-choice women often expect special treatment from clinic staff. Some demand an abortion immediately, wanting to skip important preliminaries such as taking a history or waiting for blood test results. Frequently, anti-abortion women will refuse counseling (such women are generally turned away or referred to an outside counselor because counseling at clinics is mandatory). Some women insist on sneaking in the back door and hiding in a room away from other patients. Others refuse to sit in the waiting room with women they call "sluts" and "trash." Or if they do, they get angry when other patients in the waiting room talk or laugh, because it proves to them that women get abortions casually, for "convenience".

A few behave in a very hostile manner, such as calling clinic staff "murderers." Years ago, a clinic counselor in British Columbia told me that one of her patients went into the procedure room apparently fine with her decision to have an abortion. During the abortion, at a stage when it was too late to stop the procedure, the woman started screaming "You murderers!" and other invectives at everyone in the room.

...

On occasion, an abortion turns out to be a momentous, life-affirming experience for an anti-choice woman. A doctor from a north-western state shared the following personal story with me:

"I was born into a very Catholic family, and was politically pro-life during college. After dating my first real boyfriend for three years, we broke up, and the day my boyfriend moved out, I discovered I was pregnant. It was an agonizing decision, and something I never thought I would do, but I decided an abortion was the only realistic option. Thanks to Planned Parenthood counseling, I worked through some very tough conflicts within myself. I had to learn that my decision was a loving one. That 'my god' was actually a loving and supportive god. And that men don't have to make this decision, only women do. That it is a very personal, individual decision. I had to own it. I became much more compassionate towards myself and others as a result of my experience. Two years later I began medical school. When it came time to choose a practice, an abortion clinic opportunity came up. In working there, I began to feel that this was my calling. Having been in my patients' shoes, and coming from an unforgiving background, I could honestly say to patients, 'I know how you feel.' Deciding to have an abortion was THE hardest decision I've ever made in my life. Yet it has brought me the greatest transformation, fulfillment, and now joy. I am a more loving person because of it, and a better doctor for having experienced it. I love the work that I do, and the opportunity to support women seeking to end an unwanted pregnancy. My patients and my work are life's gifts to me, and I think my compassion and support are my gifts in return."

See, they DON'T want it outlawed. That would kill the debate AND prevent them from getting one when they need it. They just want to restrict access to people that REALLY need it (you know... THEM). Everyone else is just a murder. Get it?

[Codeine]

16. Ain't it the truth.

A super-religious woman I work with recently took her 16-year-old to the clinic. Woe betide anyone else making that decision, however. I only found out about it because her daughter confided in my gf, knowing she wouldn't be judged by us.

[MH1]

42. EXACTLY.

Have I mentioned that these people really piss me off?

[MH1]

41. it's the self-righteous "I'm better than you" crap attitude that is promoted in our society

"I didn't need to have an abortion so you don't need one either"

It's the competitive vs. cooperative mindset.

[Bluebear]

4. I trust women to make a prayerful decision about this issue.

:silly:

[madfloridian]

9. Good one.

:-)

[Hello_Kitty]

8. I see it on DU all the time. I'm like, WTF?

I think it stems from a punitive and disapproving attitude toward female sexuality. Whenever someone says it IRL I always ask if it means they think pregnancy is a fitting punishment for women who have sex.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Exactly. Naughty ladies who want sex but not babies have to be punished by giving birth.

The pro-preggers aren't about life, they're about keeping women in their place.

"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock

[KittyWampus]

20. Actually it stems from from women like me who have no problem calling abortion what it actually is-

BIRTH CONTROL.

It is also an ELECTIVE surgical procedure.

DU'ers need to grow the heck up and stop being defensive, reactionary screamers.

I had an ectopic pregnancy that resulted in them having to make an incision and remove my ovary and fallopian tube on one side. It was a medical emergency with no other option.

I also CHOOSE to have an abortion, which is an ELECTIVE SURGICAL PROCEDURE since my contraception failed and thus used it as BIRTH CONTROL.

See?

I just posted some simple factoids about my life.

DU'ers have problems with those of us who can post the simple facts, using simple and accurate terminology need to get off the computer and do something constructive rather than trying to stoke phony outrage on the internet.

[PeaceNikki]

21. I'd rather we stop twisting words to make anti-choice points.

[KittyWampus]

22. DU'ers who need to deny accurate terminology and try and stop its usage are the ones twisting

things around.

And not to anyone's advantage.

Despite the circle-jerk formed on DU which might lead some to think otherwise.

[PeaceNikki]

23. So.. if an anti-choice Republican uses the terms "elective" and "birth control"

to make anti-choice points, is that ok? Or only when DUer's do? I'm not following your logic.

[TCJ70]

36. Just because they may be wrong...

...doesn't make the term inappropriate. They're not at all the same. There are elective abortions and abortion is sometimes used as birth control. It happens.

[REP]

52. Actually, "elective" and "emergent" mean different things to medical folks than they mean to you

Chances are, the surgery to mediate your ectopic pregnancy was elective. Medically necessary, but not emergent (unless it had ruptured; then it may have been).

[TCJ70]

63. So, given the examples you used...

...what do you call an abortion that is neither medically necessary nor emergent? Oh yeah, elective.

[Hello_Kitty]

45. I agree with you re: abortion being birth control

I've always said that. It prevents a birth from happening. It's the judgments people lade onto it after that (true) statement that are the problem.

[Kitty Herder]

48. I think the problem with the terms "birth control" and "elective" is not what they actually mean,

but how anti-choicers hear them. Yes, abortion is birth control. It allows a woman to control when and if she gives birth. But most people think of birth control as something that is done on regular basis to prevent pregnancy. Right wingers use that connotation to their advantage. They try to make it seem like women are regularly having abortions because they couldn't be bothered with a condom or oral contraceptives. Of course that completely fails as an argument. Damn few people are going to choose an invasive, expensive procedure to stop a pregnancy over something simple and non-invasive like a condom that prevents pregnancy.

They hear the word "elective" and they think it means that abortion is a frivolous choice like cosmetic surgery. It means nothing of the kind. Again, right-wingers are using the term's connotation to convince people to oppose abortion.

[Hello_Kitty]

67. But I don't hear the "abortion shouldn't be used as birth control" trope from right wingers

Most wingnuts I encounter are fundies and are opposed to contraception as well as abortion. I hear that line from progressives and moderates. I read it on DU quite often. It's people who are uncomfortable with abortion who think saying that makes them look "reasonable" on the issue. It doesn't.

[Kitty Herder]

70. Yes, you're correct.

I do see that argument here from so-called moderates. Either way, the term is used against us. It's on a continuum with the right-wingers' arguments, I suppose.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

66. Trolls, right-wingers, religious nuts, misogynists.

The people you speak of are at least 3 of the above four.

[madrchsod]

13. unfortunately i do know of someone....

who while married had 3 abortions under the age of 30.after her divorce she was debating another but decided that she would`t because the boy friend said he`d be there. 2 years later he`s gone. for some reason she did`t use any birth control and did`t care if her husband or boy friend did. she abused her body because of her lack of moral judgements.

thank goodness there are very few like her

[PeaceNikki]

18. So... how many is "enough" or "too much" in your opinion?

2 is ok, but 3 is bad? What if one of them was a rape or all were failed contraception? Who are you or I to judge and why should we?

[eilen]

24. Good point-- how many is too many?

Can we make the same value judgements for live births too?

How many children is too many?

[izquierdista]

31. What is too many?

Time to ask a Soviet gynecologist. During the Soviet years, abortion was a very popular method of birth control and was used widely, since they were behind the west in oral contraception. This didn't turn out to be so good for women's health though, because a large number of procedures tended to cause problems in other areas (infertility, for one).

[PeaceNikki]

33. So... you're saying it's between a woman and her doctor how many is too many?

I agree.

[izquierdista]

44. Yes

And a good doctor would try to get a patient into a sensible birth control regimen to avoid the need for an abortion.

[Chan790]

54. There is no "too many"...it's a medical procedure.

How many ingrown toenails is too many? Now many bouts of cancer is too many? How many cases of gonorrhea is too many? Heart attacks, how many is too many? Cases of food poisoning? Cases of the flu?

We really need to get away from the disingenuous cultural notion that abortion is dead babies, rather than a medical procedure.

[Odin2005]

17. It's all part of the "Women deserve to suffer for having sex" misogynistic ideology.

It's that simple. Sadly even many women have become suckers of the "personal responsibility" rhetoric used to cover up the misogyny.

[stray cat]

27. Sex can lead to pregnancy - misogeny isn't responsible for that element of evolution

[PeaceNikki]

28. But restricting a woman's access to all options of reproductive health care

including termination is.

[Odin2005]

29. But poor women should not be forced to give birth because they cannot afford an abortion.

Which is why I call the anti-choice assholes "forced-birthers".

[EndersDame]

50. You Rock!

[Odin2005]

55. Thank you!

:)

[tigereye]

25. yes, maam!

those folks need to can it, it's total bullshit.

[stray cat]

26. of course it is occassionally used as a form of birth control

It is either a medically necessary procedure because of risk to the mother or a way to prevent a birth that is not wanted.

[rd_kent]

30. How is referring to the procedure in the many different contexts a "talking point"

or an attempt to restrict access?


Some abortions are medically necessary, beyond the scope of choice.

Some abortions are not medically necessary, and fall into the category of "elective" or "a choice", whichever you prefer. When used this way, abortions ARE a form of birth control.


Those are facts. How is that a talking point?

[PeaceNikki]

32. Because it's being used to try to claim that women are immoral and lazy and irresponsible...

and have "many" abortions because they can't be bothered with birth control pills. (like right here in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7162261&mesg_id=7162552)

In the case of "elective"... it's being compared to a "boob or nose job".

If you can't see that, you're in massive denial.

[rd_kent]

34. Words can be twisted to mean anything.

I think using the correct terminology is the right thing to do, regardless of how other try to twist its meaning.


And I see that you have jumped on the boob job analogy, so let me address that: Why is a woman that chooses to have an abortion for any reason other than medical necessity, not having "elective" surgery, the same as getting a boob job, or a nose job, or any other medical procedure that is performed outside of medical necessity?

I see what you are getting at, in that comparing the two seems to lessen the bigger picture of access to abortions, but the fact remains, that an "elective"(not medically required) abortion is no more medically necessary that a boob job.

[PeaceNikki]

35. The seriously bothersome part is the twisting of these terms to make anti-choice points.

The problem with the comparison between "boob jobs" and abortions is because it frames abortion as a matter of female vanity. That's offensive and very wrong.

[rd_kent]

37. In some cases though, thats exactly what it is.

Most abortions are performed at the request of the woman (as they should be). To call it a matter of female vanity ( I would not call it that), while perhaps offensive to some, is not an untrue statement.

[PeaceNikki]

38. I contend it is an untrue statement.

It is not a valueless or futile decision.

[rd_kent]

43. While I agree with you....

the same can be said for cosmetic surgery.......

[PeaceNikki]

46. ok, point made.

Kerrytravelers made some excellent points about how cosmetic surgeries can be quite life-changing and necessary.

But, I circle back AGAIN to the fact that anti-choicers are using these terms in a derogatory sense. :)

[omega minimo]

58. He's twisting words

and insinuating and equating in this offensive way RIGHT THERE!! :wow:

:evilfrown: :scared:

[rd_kent]

69. What are you talking about now?

man, you need some help.

[omega minimo]

56. It's none of your damn business. That's how it's a talking point. Respect women's rights

to privacy and reproductive health --

or not. Which are you?

[Odin2005]

59. +1

:hug:

[PeaceNikki]

47. Kick for "Yes We Did"

[spanone]

49. yes i have....this 'but what if a woman....' B U L L S H I T

[PeaceNikki]

53. The feigned ignorance would be comical if it weren't so terrifying.

Yes It Is.

[BeHereNow]

51. It's the new "Welfare Queens" battle cry from those who

claim "no big government" and then proceed to
ask government to interfere in the lives of others.

AS IF a woman would choose an abortion over a condom
or a poverty stricken mother would choose to keep her
kids in poverty.

BHN

[SidDithers]

57. The decision to have an abortion is ultimately between the woman...

and her health care providers. Whatever her reasons, whatever her motivation, the choice is ultimately hers to make, and isn't the business of anyone else.

Thanks for your OP.

Sid

[donheld]

61. K & R that talking point has gotten very very old

whether at DU or any other place. I"m sure abortion as a form of "birth control" is very very rare.
Of course, if it was up to me RU 486 would be sold over the counter like life-savers and gum.

[Alcibiades]

62. Mifeprex is a serious drug

It is to be taken under medical supervision, not "like life-savers and gum."

"Day 1 at your provider’s office:

* Read the Medication Guide.
* Discuss the benefits and risks of using Mifeprex to end your pregnancy
* If you decide Mifeprex is right for you, sign the Patient Agreement
* After getting a physical exam, swallow 3 tablets of Mifeprex.

Day 3 at your provider's office:

* Take 2 misoprostol tablets
* Misoprostol may cause cramps, nausea, diarrhea, and other symptoms. Your provider may send you home with medicines for these symptoms. To read more about Mifeprex side effects, click here.

About Day 14 at your provider's office:

* This follow-up visit is very important. You must return to the provider about 14 days after you have taken Mifeprex to be sure you are well and that you are not pregnant.
* Your provider will check whether your pregnancy has completely ended. If it has not ended, there is a chance that there may be birth defects. If you are still pregnant, your provider will talk with you about the other choices you have, including a surgical procedure to end your pregnancy."

It requires a physical and follow-up appointments. Having it freely available without a prescription is not a good idea: I shudder to think of how many men would slip this into the food of women they had impregnated.

[gleaner]

64. That has always been an anti abortion ...

mantra. Back in the early 70s when women were first given access to legal abortions I was an active member of NOW, which was a lot more of an activist and hands on group than it seems to be now. In LA there was a Feminist Clinic where women could get abortions on request without harassment or embarrassment.

Many of us volunteered our evenings to sit with them while they waited and to listen if they wanted to talk. It was a very sobering experience. I never met a woman who took her choice casually. Many of them had used contraception and gotten pregnant anyway. More than you would think were half of a married couple who simply could not support a child financially or had issues at home that would have made it impossible to nurture a child the way they wanted too. Sometimes the husbands came with their wives, but they didn't know what to do or say. They looked miserable and thoughtful. They knew very well how hard this was going to be.

I never saw anyone happy to have to make the decision. I saw women afterwords who were relieved, sad, silent and never wanting to have to come back. It is not an easy choice ever, but it was a choice they were grateful to have the ability to make. I remain pro-choice. This is necessary for women and couples to be in control of their bodies and their lives.

Sometimes the women were from abusive relationships and had to terminate a pregnancy for their own safety and to protect a baby from the abuser. There was even less help for battered women then than there is now. No shelters, no protection and beating your wife half to death was more of a joke for the police than a crime.

Women have to have a choice. It has to be their own choice and only the woman making the choice knows how much it is going to cost her, but it always does cost her. I am so tired of these fools who want to deny women this right as well as access to decent contraception, divorce or many other facets of reproductive health and general well being. I would like to see it end and I would like to see them put in a position where whether they like it or not they have to learn to shut up and mind their own business. I am very sure they have many areas of their own lives which could be improved with a little of the energy they bring to destroy other lives and maybe a drop of compassion.

[Helga Scow Stern]

65. Abortion is the decision of a mother,

no if's and's or but's.
We denigrate the mother in this culture to our immense peril.
Look at what we are doing to the Grand mother of us all....
it is called global warming.

[pleah]

68. K&R I told my congress critters to keep their religion out of the health care bill. n/t