Catholic DU'ers. Do you approve of what the church is doing with the government?

[Hawkeye-X]

Yes? No?

I'd like to hear your answer.

Thanks!

Hawkeye-X

[MNDemNY]

1. ,

:o :popcorn:

[Chipper Chat]

2. No.

And "Pope Jr" Bill Donahue should be banned from the airwaves.

[rug]

3. No. And I'm not too impressed with what the Democrats are doing with it either.

[RKP5637]

6. Ditto!!! n/t

[mdmc]

38. almost what I posted

:toast:

[anonymous171]

4. Fuck no. nt

[Kerrytravelers]

5. In regards to what?

Quite frankly, the election of the current Pope was enough to push Mr. kt and I out of Mass. I'm not giving another dime ever to an organization that would have this level of filth as the leader.

[Historic NY]

7. No..

even the bible made distinctions between God & goverment.

[berni_mccoy]

8. Absolutely Not.

[vadawg]

9. depends on what you mean, i dont have a problem with the bishops telling politicians that they cant

both sides of an issue, thats kinda the job of the bishops, to lead the flock so to speak. If people dont want to listen to what the church advises them then there are plenty of other churches out there. I am pretty sure now that the majority of Dem pols do not agree with the views of DU in regards to the catholic church as they realise that the numbers are against taking any positions that will push Catholics away from voting Dem.

[rurallib]

32. you don't have a problem with bishops or priests telling

government officials how they should vote?

[rurallib]

33. delete

[vadawg]

41. nope if the politician holds themselves out as catholic, then the bishops can remind them of the

rules of the club (RCC). The politician is free to decide if they want to remain a member of the club or not...

[FLDCVADem]

55. That's how I feel as well

No one is forced to be a Catholic.

I'm not good with the bishops sitting down to help write legislation, but I don't have a problem with bishops or any clergy of any faith reminding members of that faith 1) what the rules are and 2) the consequences of not following the rules.

[rurallib]

60. Wow - so JFK's statement about not taking orders from Rome

doesn't really stand.
If this were true I would never vote for a Catholic.

[FLDCVADem]

61. Not sure what you mean

I'm not saying that any politician should be taking orders from Rome or anywhere else. What I'm saying is that the church has rules, and if one doesn't want to follow those rules, then one shouldn't complain when the church reminds one of the rules.

Look at DU - there are rules that the mods put down, and if don't follow those rules, we can be booted. Same with the church.

[rd_kent]

45. Bishops should not be talking to politicians at all.....

unless the politician is at church as a churchgoer, not as a politician.

[vadawg]

46. nope as long as the politician is a member of their church they can talk to them

as much as they like, remember the church has rules and articles of faith, that if you dont follow or believe that they can throw you out for not adhering to..

[rd_kent]

50. Then they should choose between serving the people or serving their religion, not both.

A politicians personal religious views have no place when making laws that effect everyone. Thats my view, and not up for debate. You are entitled to your opinion as well. I think you and I will not see eye to eye on this so we can just agree to disagree right now.

[vadawg]

51. yup we will disagree on this no matter what :)

[MichiganVote]

53. Yeah just look at all the priesties and bishops they threw out for buggering kids....

Break the rules of the church, broke the articles of faith, broke their vows, abandoned the sacraments and of course broke "God's" law and look where they are now...oh wait they are still part of the boys club. Just can't wear the same insignia anymore. Really taught them a lesson.


:sarcasm:

[CurtEastPoint]

10. No! n/t

[dalaigh lllama]

11. No (but I'm an ex-Catholic)

and I find it highly ironic that one of the main strikes against Kennedy when he was running 40 years ago was the fear he would listen to the Catholic Church over the laws of our land. Ha! How far we have fallen.

[hedgehog]

12. Oh, absolutely! In fact, I was very heartened to hear that the Bishop of Youngstown

donated $10,000 to fight same sex marriage in Maine.
http://ncronline.org/news/politics/dioceses-major-contributors-repeal-same-sex-marriage


I mean, God knows there is no better way to spend the money donated for good works by the people of Youngstown than to interfere in the personal lives of people living in Maine! Isn't it wonderful that the good Bishop realized this and sent the money!


And to think, the timely interference by the Bishops' Conference is threatening the first major reform of health care in this country since forever! Why, my chest swells with pride and a tear comes to my eye just to think if it.










(Do I really have too add :sarcasm: ?)

[alsame]

13. NO! (I'm a very lapsed Catholic) nt

[mother earth]

14. Depends on what you're talking about, as exhibited so far,

you will find Catholics value their own soul (right/wrong) choices and are more likely to go with that. Used to be the pope dictated, but these days that is not the case. I'm Catholic, but I am pro-choice and very much a believer in equality, and I don't draw the line with marriage. And, somehow, I consider myself Catholic, and I say somehow, because I am appalled at the non-action to known pedophiles that were embraced instead of thrown out and straight into jail.

These are different times, my friend.

I completely believe in separation of church and state BTW. That's my biggest peeve with ALL churches. Stay out of gov't or lose your tax exempt status. If it were up to me, this would be enforced strictly.

[HelenWheels]

17. No

And I left the catholic church a long time ago. I left because of the way they treated women. Now I disagree with them on about everything. They have lost their way. They no longer are a voice for the poor. Because of their political actions (one church in my city told their parishioners how to vote if they wanted to remain catholic) they should lose their tax exempt status.

[Toasterlad]

19. See Post #18

[mother earth]

23. Oh, honey, that was done a long time ago.

[napi21]

15. NO! If you saw Chris Matthews interview with that Bishop from

RI (I think) had the best argument I have ever heard in support of the Church staying out of the business of legislation. I don't know if you can still find it on the Hardball web site, but basically he told the Bishop that his job was to teach and the congress's job was to legislate. Just because you failed at teaching your congregates what you want them to do/not do doesn't mean you can use the law to force them.

Here's the link to the interview. Whatch it if you missed it the first time!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFYld2Ufo-A

[TK421]

76. Wow...I just watched that video and I think the good bishop has a clearer

understanding of what it's like to be an altar boy these days, since Matthews verbally sodomized him

[FarLeftRage]

16. Nope...

But thank God, my local parish is staffed with Progressively-minded Priests and Nuns who think the way I do... Separation of Church and State, equality for all in all aspects and not going along with the current "leadership"....

[Toasterlad]

18. If You Don't Agree With It, You Should Stop Funding It.

The catholic church is only able to meddle in politics, fight against gay and women's rights, and pay their pedophiles because of donations from people who claim to disagree with all those things.

[mother earth]

25. I believe people who disagree do not fund it. You have to

realize that most of us did not choose our denomination, we were born into it. It's funny to even consider ourselves part of it, but until you actually choose another denomination, the label remains, even when all else has parted ways.

[vadawg]

26. yup i believe there are two types of catholics, those who are catholic due to faith

and those who are catholic simply due to culture, and there is a big difference between the two...

[mother earth]

27. I agree. Even Kerry is prochoice and he was recently

admonished by the church because of it, but what will it matter in the end? Kerry will be respected and the church exhibits ignorance, because I'd rather have abortion as an option under medical care than without. Abortion happens, legally or illegally. So many things are grey areas and in RL we realize the truth of that.

I think Catholics are more likely than other religious followers to actively go against the church and speak out. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Cleobulus]

63. I would separate it further to those who financially support the Church and those who don't...

One group is a problem, the other isn't.

[Toasterlad]

68. Do They Both Contribute Money? If So, There Is No Fucking Difference.

Both are funding hate.

[Toasterlad]

67. What the Fuck Does That Mean, "Did Not Choose Your Denomination"?

Are you an adult? Are you capable of making your own decisions? If so, you are perfectly able to stop putting money in a collection basket.

If you are continuing to finance the catholic church and all the evil it perpetuates merely because that's how you were raised, you are an evil person. There is no way around that.

[graywarrior]

20. Hell, no!

I mean, Heavens. no!

[indypaul]

21. Absolutely Not -Thomas Paine advised in Epistle to Quakers

"And here, without anger or resentment I bid you farewell. Sincerely
wishing, that as men and Christians, ye may always fully and uninteruptedly
enjoy every civil and religeous right; and be, in your turn, the means of
securing it to others; but that the example which ye have unwisely set, of
mingling religion and politics, may be disavowed and reprobated by every
inhabitant of America."

[Gman]

22. It pisses me off to absolutely no end

especially when they so cavalierly also disregard things like, well, let's see here... hmmm... HEALTH CARE FOR ALL, or maybe SOCIAL JUSTICE, or THE POOR

all over the goddamn abortion issue.

[vadawg]

24. i look at it this way, eveybody has their #1 issue that sees out all comers

for some its the environment, for others its 2nd amendment, others its pro life, others its pro choice. Every person on the planet prioritises their causes and the abortion issue is just #1 for the catholic church much the same as firearms are for the NRA, or basketball is for the NBA

[Gman]

30. Abortion is not #1 for the Catholic Church

Abortion has been declared #1 by it's conservative types and everyone else says, "Um... right" because its coming from someone in authority that DOES NOT define what the #1 issue is. The Holy See has NEVER said that the abortion issues trumps all else. Never. That makes what the Conference of Bishops does nothing more than political pandering and pure personal aggrandizement, both of which are sins in and of themselves.

[vadawg]

36. i think you will find its up there, at the top of the pile, and the fact that its put up there by

the authorities in the church pretty much makes it so. People seem to forget that the catholic church is not a democracy and what the pope says basically goes, now whether you believe it or not defines you as either a cultural catholic or a faithful catholic... You might not believe that abortion is a sin but the church sure as hell does.

[Arctic Dave]

43. The church is like the NRA? That made me chuckle, because to a point, its true.

Both are self serving entities trying to scam people out of their money. Thats I would never be part of the NRA and told the church to piss off years ago.

[vadawg]

44. lol i guess faith and belief come into them all as well, some worship god, some guns

some the knicks, some the redskins(poor unfortunate souls)

[Arctic Dave]

49. LOL Redskins? More like a cult.

[FreakinDJ]

28. No matter what you say - you'll get Bashed by Catholic Haters on DU

and I thought religious prejudice was reserved for bigots like the KKK

[TicketyBoo]

35. Oh, it isn't just Catholics.

It's Christianity in general.

[MichiganVote]

54. So the KKK is a religion now?

[FreakinDJ]

59. They claim their beliefs are founded in the Bible

this is OLD News

[MichiganVote]

65. So did Hitler but I don't know of anyone who claimed he'd found religion.

[demosincebirth]

58. He only asked for opinions of Catholics, but I guess Catholic haters

can't, just, resist the urge to bash.

[Toasterlad]

70. Just Like Catholics Can't, Just, Resist the Urge To Fight Equality.

[Toasterlad]

69. And I Thought Christians Were Supposed to Love Their Neighors, But Here We Are.

The catholic church is the single biggest hate group on the planet.

[CatholicEdHead]

29. No, much of it is a deflection from the sex scandal

Their way to try to reassert control without open checks and balances. They lost, power, money, and prestige from it. They take their seminary theology of the church as a "perfect society" literally and seriously.

That is why they took pages out of the fundie evangelical playbook and only abortion and gay marriage matter. :crazy: I have read comparisons that gays are now taking the place Jews did in the past, as part of this neo-retro movement has to bring that "tradition" back. Much of that comes from a delusion that it was all the gays who caused the sex scandal, so they are the scapegoat even though there is no relation to gender preferences and pedophilia.

[AngryOldDem]

31. No -- I wish I could state it more strongly.

I am DONE with the Church. Absolutely DONE.

[rurallib]

34. no and since they have dipped into politics, they should pay taxes

[mdmc]

37. yes

all in all..

no worse then the other religions ...

My religion and my political party are both what they are.. not perfect but could be worse..

[rd_kent]

47. Instead of "could be worse" it should be "could be better".

[Toasterlad]

71. "Could Be Worse". Yes, They Could Be Stoning Gays Instead Of Denying Them Rights.

Your justification of your religion's evil is vile.

[mdmc]

74. But it is the same justification I use for the Democratic Party

It is what it is.

As a practicing Catholic I find a great deal of comfort from my religion.
I oppose many church teachings. I also oppose many of the Dem party positions.

All in all, I think that the church is better off with me in the church. I think that the church benefits from liberal participation.

I could be wrong.

Peace and low stress..

[bridgit]

39. Separate Church & State

[Ikonoklast]

40. American Catholicism is not monolithic.

There is a distinct difference from what Catholics in this country practice, and what the Vatican preaches.

Take birth control, for one issue. Many American Catholics practice birth control in spite of the Vatican, but they are never pressed to leave the church.

When a priest or bishop starts spouting off on how to vote, it goes right in one ear and out the other of most parishiners.

The pope know American Catholic donations keeps him in Prada, and if he pisses them off or chases them away, he'll be scrounging for coins to pay the rent.

But every once in a while, he lets one of his surrogates spout off in public, just to remind everyone who's the boss.

[vadawg]

42. yup big differences in the levels of adherence to the rules,

will be interesting to see what the growing hispanic catholic population makes to how the american church looks...

[Ikonoklast]

48. Hispanic Catholics are mostly quite conservative...yet poorer than the average Catholic.

Money talks, bullshit walks, and that holds true for the Vatican as well.

They will not antagonize, too much, at least, the people that keep the lights on in the Vatican, and that means the mostly European descended Catholics in the U.S..

[demosincebirth]

56. and they usually democratic, too

[Toasterlad]

72. And Yet, It Was The Catholic Chuch In THIS Country That Donated Half a Million To Repeal Marriage

In Maine.

The American catholic church is the same hate group that's run by the Vatican catholic church.

[Peace Patriot]

52. NO! This has been the Church's problem since the 5th century AD--when

the power of the state and the power of the church were cemented, and thus the mindboggling notion of ENFORCING worship of Jesus THROUGH VIOLENCE was born.

Through "baptism by the sword."

Through Crusades against "the Infidel."

Through torture, inquisitions and witch-burnings.

Through spiritual/social violence such as "excommunication" and "anathema."

Through intellectual violence--declaring some ideas "heresies" and some people "heretics."

Through "missionizing" indigenous people and destroying their cultures.

Through terrorizing generations of human souls with fear of Hell.

Through the building of a monolithic, patriarchal, vastly wealthy institution that claims that there is "no salvation" outside of itself.

Through LYING--oh my, they have told so many lies!

These egotistical crimes--which, if you read the New Testament, you know that Jesus would have abhorred--are the heritage of this Medieval institution, which now presumes to dictate policy to a sovereign people in a democratic country. If they were "excommunicating" warmongers and war profiteers, I might be more sympathetic to them. But their sole focus is controlling WOMEN. They are sick men. They have 2,000 years of lies, violence and crimes against women and crimes against the human intellect to answer for. And they are NOT the Church. They are usurpers and gross violators of the message of love and peace that Jesus taught.

I am speaking of the upper clergy--the bishops, cardinals, popes. There are many very good people in the lower rungs of the church's power structure, and among church members. Many of them have been fighting the good fight to reform this institution. And I know a particular group--the Catholic Workers--who really do live the message of love and peace, and, as far as I'm concerned, ARE the Catholic Church. THAT is what it was supposed to be! That is what Jesus clearly had in mind. Communal living in poverty with the poor, feeding the poor directly through their own scavenging, gardening and cooking, giving "all they have to the poor," advocating peace and social justice, and opposing hatred and war. The Catholic Workers won't even accept non-profit status. They will have nothing to do with the government, except to poor blood on its nuclear warheads (and take the consequences).

Just want to say one other thing. The New Testament has been "Bowdlerized" many times--and many texts were edited out, during the purges of the 5th Century. If there is a miracle, it is that the remaining texts are so clear, so simple and so not-what-the-Church-has done. Love thy neighbor. THAT'S IT. I have read the four gospels closely, and, although I am not a linguist or Biblical scholar, I am personally quite certain that there is one thing in the NT that Jesus never said, that I think was interpolated into the text in the 5th century, and it is this: "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church." Never said it. Never wanted it. Never gave any other indication that he wanted ANY kind of church or official institution established under his auspices. Jesus was anti-establishment to the core of his being. Love is the ONLY rule. And this disreputable monstrosity that the Catholic Church has become, falsely claiming direct authority of Jesus, violates everything else that he said.

I do think that people need gathering places to come together and worship something other than the Almighty Dollar (or Almighty Deficit, these days). We need to raise our eyes above the routines of life, and the sufferings or pleasures of life, and expand our souls and our minds, and we need to help each other. We NEED to access the spiritual and sacred dimensions. To my mind, this is clearly a human necessity. But anyone who claims to have a monopoly on the realm of the Spirit is wrong. The institutional Catholic Church is wrong on this matter--as on many other matters--and is really not much better than Exxon Mobil in trying to monopolize a 'market.' Jesus NEVER intended to monopolize any market. He said ONE THING over and over and over and over and over again, in every way he could say it: Love thy neighbor. That's it. I think "Thou art Peter, etc." is the biggest lie of all.

[Prometheus Bound]

64. Keep writing, Peace Patriot.

Great stuff!

[demosincebirth]

57. I don't think many of these DU'ers are Catholic. Maybe anti-

[Cleobulus]

62. Its important to separate the Laity from the Church Hierarchy..

First, many of the Laity simply don't support what the Church Hierarchy does politically or spiritually. However, the Church isn't a democracy, so they have virtually no influence on how the Church as an institution behaves.

Some in the Laity, out of some misguided attempt at thinking the Church is something more than a hate group do Tithe to the Church, and frankly, this is the biggest problem with Liberal or left wing Catholics, particularly those who are socially liberal, they financially support the very policies they should oppose, from anti-equality lobbying to anti-choice lobbying to lies about condoms that kill people, etc.

Then there are others in the Laity who aren't a problem, those who don't tithe, and frankly, refuse to participate in the Church anymore, they realize that they have no influence on the Church itself. They still call themselves Catholics, and still believe, but simply aren't active members any more.

Then, last but not least, there are the Ex-Catholics(myself included) who simply don't believe as the church does, theologically, morally, and politically. We aren't members anymore, for various reasons.

[Toasterlad]

73. Do the Laity Tithe? If Not, They're Not Catholic. At the End of the Day, That's All Catholicism Is

It's a business. Granted, an EVIL business, but a business. If you tithe, your funding evil. If you don't, you're not obeying the laws of your religion, and are therefore not a catholic.

Yeah. It's that simple.

[murdoch]

66. If I can still be considered Catholic, no

I was baptized and went to a Catholic grammar school and high school. Not sure if I can officially be called Catholic anymore since the only time I was at church this year was for some ceremony my friend's daughter was in. Also, I don't believe in that 19th century rule that says the pope is infallible in spiritual matters.

But no, I disagree with this Stupak thing etc. I disagree with what the Vatican has done in Latin America and Europe for the past century at least.

Really, rarely does anything good ever comes out of the Vatican. Vatican II and the years after that were an exception, but even in the 1980s that was beginning to be rolled back, and the anti-semitic SSPX being let back in the church is a sign of where the leadeship is going.

The positive aspects of the Catholic church usually come from the laity and local priests. Once in a while a good bishop pops up when the Vatican isn't looking. Sometimes even a good pope (John XXIII).

The church just has way too much baggage to get better. And a lot of the good people just leave it, making the church even worse.

I would say the main problem is not the self-selecting hierarchy of bishops in the Vatican, it is the celibacy requirement for those men. There is something very odd about all of it. This iron-clad rule from on high about them not being able to marry is very weird and has weird effects, and changes the dynamic of who wants to be a priest, never mind a bishop. They should just let them get marries like the Protestants do.

[AuntPatsy]

75. No which is why I am not active at present.. Very sad what they are attempting to do...

so far removed from empathy and compassion towards all of our fellow man and woman......our leaders need to quit pandering to them and all those like them..enough is enough...

[spanone]

77. separation of church & state