HELEN THOMAS: This Sure Seems Like Vietnam

[Bluebear]

I realize she will be branded by some as a senile old biddy now, quite a transformation from when DU sent her flowers, but here goes:

======

President Barack Obama insists that his decision to escalate the war in Afghanistan by sending in 30,000 more troops is not Vietnam all over again. Well, it sure reminds me of the perils and the price of that unwinnable war and the political chaos it wreaked at home.

In Afghanistan, the designated enemies are remnants of the weakened al-Qaida network and the native Taliban, which has been growing in strength despite the eight-year war started by President George W. Bush in the aftermath of the 9/11 catastrophe. Obama is too young to remember the national turmoil during the Vietnam War that resulted in the deaths of more than 58,000 Americans and thousands of Vietnamese. That war also ended the political career of President Lyndon Johnson, who decided not to seek re-election in 1968...

Obama omitted the single biggest difference between Vietnam and Afghanistan when he failed to mention that the military draft was roaring through every American town, suburb and city during the Vietnam War. Now, the U.S. military relies exclusively on volunteers.

The draft focused public attention -- and ultimately, public outrage -- on our strategy, our allies, the corrupt South Vietnamese leadership, the colonial legacy we inherited from the French and the failure of Presidents Johnson and Richard Nixon to articulate credible goals that would justify the continued loss of lives. The American people ended up rejecting both the Vietnam War and the national leaders who took us there.

President Obama, take note....

Obama won a mandate in 2008 to pull up Bush's war stakes. He should listen to the people, not the generals, not the neocons and certainly not former Vice President Dick Cheney. That would be the same Dick Cheney who notably dodged the Vietnam draft but now is gung ho for more war in Afghanistan.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/12/06-9

[Tansy_Gold]

1. Senile Old Biddies of the World Unite!

k & r





Tansy Gold

[virgogal]

33. I'm one of them----we're a lot smarter than we look.

[debbierlus]

100. In hopes that I make it that far, pulling up a chair in the back of the circle

And, listening carefully to the women...

[sarge43]

92. Pulling up a chair.

Here we go again: Cluster Fuck Redux

[pscot]

118. With age comes wisdom

which used to be accompanied by a certain amount of respect. Today, not so much.

[babylonsister]

2. I love her. Doesn't mean she has the full knowledge the President does,

nor do any of us. If that were so easy...

[Bluebear]

3. Oh bs, I think she knows more than all the Presidents combined sometime.

:)

[emilyg]

7. Fully agree. Go Helen!

[babylonsister]

9. I did not denigrate her, love her, but I don't know, you don't know, she

doesn't know, as precious as she is.

:hug:

[Bluebear]

14. I meant bs...

as short for your name, not bs as in...you know :)

[whoopingcrone]

134. She's "Precious"?

You "love" her?
I'd say "thanks a bunch" for your condescending... but you forgot "cute".

[Autonomy]

140. Is that you, Helen?

:hi:

[Divine Discontent]

147. tell 'em, brother!

[dflprincess]

4. That's another line we heard during Vietnam

"You don't know what the president knows."

As it turned out we had pretty much guessed what Johnson and Nixon knew - Vietnam could not be won and we were only staying there because neither one of them could face that fact.

[babylonsister]

11. We are a few decades past VN. We are not a few years past

the outcome of this.

[dflprincess]

24. But we are 8 years into it

and it's pretty clear it's a disaster we can't afford. If the troops we've had there (including the 17,000 extra Obama) already sent haven't solved the problem, why risk another 30,000 for this mess?

[babylonsister]

31. You are equating what idiot son did to what Obama is trying to do.

It's very different.

[dflprincess]

34. Throwing troops and money we don't have at an unwinnable situation

not so different. Former Soviet generals could explain the futility of it.

But tell yourself it's different if that makes you feel better.

[babylonsister]

40. No, dear, it's a different time vs. Russia. But you keep on keeping on.

I like what Andrew Sullivan had to say-this in an end game. We shall see, but this decision wasn't made lightly, unlike the previous admin.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=433&topic_id=34127

[dflprincess]

41. Sure it wasn't

The "Best & the Brightest" made their decisions seriously as well.

And there's light at the end of the tunnel. Obama is as much a tool of MIC as Bush or Johnson or Nixon was.

[bvar22]

66. Its ALL different now.....

...because Obama will save us.
Glory Be....

[Le Taz Hot]

87. And each and every one of those excuses

were used during Vietnam. I read the article. I had a 40-year flashback. Any minute now, President Change is going to claim "peace is at hand." My guess, right around re-election time. Worked for Nixon.

[liberation]

120. ... wow, so now Andrew Sullivan is a reputable opinion on anything?

What is next citing op eds by Friedman and Kristol as authoritative references?

The Obama apolotists are really scrapping at the bottom of the barrel trying to justify "STFU dear leader knows best" as the epitome of democratic attitudes. Good grief!

[pscot]

123. It's different, allright

We kill from a distance with remote controlled drones. All very hygienic. No media. No PTSD for the guy who presses the button. Very little public outcry. Just a line in the Pentagon's budget. Meanwhile we enroll an Afghan defense force that will be heavily seeded with Taliban, and that we won't be able to turn our backs on, or trust to be subservient to our puppet regime. And all for a cause that nobody gives a damn about.

[gorfle]

133. If the fucking RUSSIANS couldn't tame the place...

...there is no way we are going to tame it.

[AlbertCat]

90. You are equating what idiot son did to what Obama is trying to do.

B-b-b-but "the Surge" was so successful!








:sarcasm:

[rtassi]

109. Its still war and killing isn't it? Why does it matter who gives the order?

[FiveGoodMen]

136. How do you know that?

[pokercat999]

144. It's not different, it's identical, they were and are doing the

bidding of the MIC....and a damn good job of it too.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

46. You don't think it's a question of how the troops are used?

After all, many of the steps one would consider logical have yet to be taken in this war. You cling to the number "eight years" but that, by itself, means little. What matters more is what options have been explored during that period. Quite frankly, it's been very few.

[dflprincess]

48. No I don't

we're being handed a bill of goods and the only ones who will pay for it are the troops and their families.

[midnight]

80. It is clear we can't afford this war... And by we, I mean the tax payers....

The fact that this war continues to be sold as a security issue, is the first thing we know is not correct..... But we knew this before we started... Dr. Kelly told us that much.

[dflprincess]

25. Delete - duplicate post

[sarge43]

93. And the last land war in Asia that went well for us was ...? n/t

[tblue37]

68. What they couldn't fac--and I think what Obama can't face--is the political cost of admitting it is

hopeless and giving up the fight.

[gorfle]

132. Precisely.

As it turned out we had pretty much guessed what Johnson and Nixon knew - Vietnam could not be won and we were only staying there because neither one of them could face that fact.

Precisely.

And here we are at it again.

Really. I mean really. Is there anyone, anyone here on DU that thinks the situation in the Middle East will be substantially different from the way it is today in 10 years? 20? 50?

I don't. And I'm sure as hell not interested in investing our guns and butter in trying to make it happen.

Shit! With this kind of expense we may as well send a gold-plated invitation to Al Quaeda to fly an airliner into a couple of our skyscrapers every decade or so. It would be cheaper!

[Better Believe It]

5. Presidents Johnson and Nixon said they had lots of secret stuff on Vietnam that they

couldn't share with us. Trust them.

[BlueJac]

95. Nonsense..........

This is another bullshit war

[avaistheone1]

112. A president's full knowledge does not guarantee a good decision

by the president.

If it did we would not have the many mistakes made not only by this president, but by other presidents as well.

[mullard12ax7]

121. WTF? I mean that is one great big RW talking point

and nothing else. You must be a person completely incapable of seeing it.

[gorfle]

130. That argument holds no water with me.

I will never again back any war on the basis of, "We're the government and we know things you don't so trust us."

You want to spend our soldier's lives and tax dollars on war? 1) Prove it is necessary and 2) get a Declaration of War from Congress.

[leftstreet]

6. Uh-oh

K&R

[Bluebear]

8. Gas up the Bluebird!

:toast:

[liberation]

126. I hope they are keeping up with the maintenance schedule

all those people ran under it... must be making a number on the transmission and suspension.

[Bluebear]

142. ---

:spray:

[unkachuck]

10. I love her too....and she's seldom wrong....n/t

[AwakeAtLast]

12. The only difference - in Viet Nam there was a draft in effect.

When people are not personally vested they don't have much reason to take to the streets like in the 60's and early 70's.

[bertman]

43. We poor and middle class folk gonna be "personally vested" when the BILL COMES DUE.

[AwakeAtLast]

52. I was thinking more about our soldiers and the havoc their families go through

You are not personally vested when all you have to do is throw money at something.

[bertman]

60. I agree with your take on it, but since there's an all-volunteer military augmented by

private contract warriors, we very likely won't have that awakening by the citizenry at large.

As we see more and more of our infrastructure and our government services fall apart or go away we're gonna see some pissed off Americans.

What was it President Obama said at his JOBS Summit last week, "we only have limited resources to put into jobs growth" or something to that effect. From my point of view that kind of statement is going to be the American equivalent to Marie Antoinette's quip "let them eat cake".

[alp227]

13. Right on...Obama needs to listen to the people, not the war pigs/Cheneykenhawk

I wonder when the administration will ever hold town halls where the people can express their unheard views.

[leftstreet]

16. What are you suggesting? Town Halls for stuff like Healthcare and War?

Are you nuts?

:hi:

[bdamomma]

102. by any chance are those town hall questions screened.

[Freddie Stubbs]

86. The people support President Obama's Afghanistan policy:

Washington (CNN) - Americans agree with the Afghanistan policy Barack Obama announced on Tuesday night at West Point in large measure because they agree with the arguments the president made in that speech, according to a new national poll.

In his prime time address at the U.S. Military Academy, where Obama spelled out his decision to send an additional 30,000 U.S. troops to the war, the president stressed that America's safety and security are at stake in Afghanistan. A CNN/Opinion Research Corporation national survey released Sunday morning indicates 64 percent of Americans agree with the president, with one in three saying the country's safety and security is not at stake in Afghanistan. According to the poll, 63 percent of people questioned also agree with Obama that the U.S. action in Afghanistan is morally justified.

"That's one major way that Afghanistan is different from Iraq in the public's mind," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "At the time of the Iraq surge in 2007, most Americans questioned whether that war was justified."

The president met with military and civilian advisers for three months before announcing his Afghanistan decision. Obama said he needed that time to review the options available. Did he take too long to decide? Fifty-six percent say no, with 43 percent feeling three months was not necessary.

more: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/12/06/cnn-poll-americans-mostly-agree-with-obama-on-afghanistan/

[defendandprotect]

15. Same thing . . . perpetual war for profiteers and imperialists . . .

Thanks, Helen!!

[Proud Liberal Dem]

17. There seems to be an assumption around here..........

that whenever a liberal pol or somebody generally respected by liberals/Democrats says something that somebody here might not fully agree with and/or speaks critically about President Obama, that we are "throwing them under the bus"? I don't get it. I don't agree with EVERYTHING that anybody says but that doesn't mean that I'm "throwing them under the bus". Can't people disagree without being disagreeable? Geez! :shrug:

[Bluebear]

18. Well, the last time she criticized the President she WAS called senile.

And jumped the shark. And a bitch. So it's nothing I am imagining.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

23. O.k. Well, I missed THAT

Way off base IMHO.

[Bluebear]

27. No prob....

That's why the poster a few down is saying "I want my flowers back!!!" tongue-in-cheek, as that was the reaction :)

[laughingliberal]

28. I remember that, "jumped the shark." Outrageous nt

[chill_wind]

36. Somebody got it exactly right the other day

when they said if Obama did a U-turn and now said he opposed an escalation, there would instantly be no support on DU for an escalation. For many, it's not about issues, it's about cult of personality and Party, not as vehicle, but as destination. That's how people can come to trash so many of the truth-tellers that were once respected and revered here. The truth, it seems, is always situational and depends on conditions on the ground. A slick moving target. "Rational" my ass.

[gateley]

19. "He should listen to the people..." K&R nt

[QC]

20. I WANTT MY FLOWRES BACK!1!1!!!1!!11

[Dinger]

21. Glad To Join The Old Biddies Club

Go Helen!:patriot:

[BeyondGeography]

22. Afghanistan is not Vietnam

http://www.theworld.org/2009/10/07/afghanistan-is-not-vietnam/

[Bluebear]

26. Who is this "New America Foundation" that "dismisses comparison between the wars"

[BeyondGeography]

30. Who is this Helen who ignores specific facts that make Afghanistan totally different from Vietnam

-We were attacked by a group that was based in Afghanistan (Vietnam never attacked us)
-The present conflict in Afghanistan is tribal in nature (Vietnam was a war of national liberation)
-We killed millions of Vietnamese civilians (civilians are not a target in Afghanistan, that should make you feel better)
-We lost over 800 dead in two bad weeks of the Vietnam War in 1969 (we lost 800 in the first eight years in Afghanistan, that should make you feel better)
-LBJ's surge in Vietnam involved 300K troops (Obama is raising troop levels by 30K, that should make you feel better)

Go ahead and believe the worst, but Helen's wrong.

[dflprincess]

39. 800 Americans killed in Aghanistan for no particular reason should not make

anyone feel better.

Civilians are being killed.

Obama sent 17,000 more troops to Afghanistan earlier this year. The 30,000 are his second "surge" and brings his total escaltion to 47,000. Another 47,000 lives at risk does not make me feel better.

And finally, we just can't afford this little extravaganza. Obama has talked about freezes and cuts to domestic spending in the next budget. Apparently we're spending money there so we won't have it to spend here.

[BeyondGeography]

45. Ah yes, finances...another key difference

We were a net creditor nation during the Vietnam War. Nobody but nobody fretted about the financial cost of that war potentially bankrupting us. Now we are in hock up to our ears, which is why Obama is fast-tracking the arrival of troops and their departure starting in 2011.

[dflprincess]

49. That is just bogus

if he cared what this cost he wouldn't be escalating he'd be getting us out now.

No money for jobs or health care but plenty of money for a war that makes money for a few people. Funny how that doesn't have to be "deficit neutral".

[BeyondGeography]

50. Even if you assume the worst about Obama, which you obviously do

the whole bogus Afghanistan/Vietnam comparison falls apart on the issue of the financial condition of the country then and now alone.

[dflprincess]

57. Vietnam was the excuse Nixon had for underfunding Johnson's

"Great Society" programs and doing away with some of them. The money being thrown away in Afghanistan and Iraq will be used an excuse to further undermine what little remains of a social safety net in the U.S. as well as the reason our infrastructure will continue to deteroriate.

In that way, the quagmires are very much the same. Why use the money to fix problems at home when it can be used to enrich a few military contractors and bribe a few war lords to play nice with us (until someone else offers them more money)?

[snagglepuss]

61. Well said. nt

[BeyondGeography]

62. As if Nixon needed an excuse

Obama, meantime, knows he can't have guns and butter, so, believe it or not, he's trying to end both wars.

[Le Taz Hot]

88. He just increased troops by 30,000

and you call that "trying to end both wars." Of course you do. Black is white, peace is war. Got it. The mental gymnastics the cheerleaders around here have to go through to justify EVERYTHING President Change does is nothing short of amazing. It's like watching a train wreck except we're IN the fucking train AND paying for it's destruction.

[BeyondGeography]

105. And you, of course, like to think you're always right about everything

The surge in Iraq was going to turn that into Vietnam, too, remember? Except it didn't. Were you wrong about that? I was.

Maybe, just maybe, Obama, who does this for a living, knows more than Le Taz. Can you admit that possibility to yourself? Or are you so fargone that you believe he has morphed into an unthinking prisoner of the Military Indistrial Complex after 10 months on the job?

[Le Taz Hot]

106. I know that he didn't morph into a prisoner

of the MIC after 10 months on the job. He's always been a corporate sell-out. You can save the three-dimensional chess bullcrap for the gullible. We were told we didn't understand when Johnson and Nixon pulled the same shit. As it turns out, we had it pegged all along. Obama's adherence to BUSH policy does not give him a pass -- it gets him the same criticism I laid on Bush. Pardon me if I'm not into blind loyalty.

[BeyondGeography]

107. So you didn't think the surge in Iraq would result in another Vietnam?

[bvar22]

67. It already IS being used as an excuse.

"Obama turns to job creation, but warns of limited funds"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7149085

[Bluebear]

51. You know who Helen Thomas is. I am asking who this Foundation is you quoted.

[sabrina 1]

74. Civilians are not being killed in Afghanistan?

You meed to catch up on what's happening over there. Afghanistan is similar to Vietnam in the sense that it is a war that cannot be won.

Iraq is also a war that cannot be won. As soon as the US leaves, which they won't as they have all of OUR oil to protect over there, that puppet government will fall.

We were NOT attacked by Afghanistan, we were attacked by Saudis. And we didn't go there because of that anyhow. This war was planned long before 9/11 if the Taliban would not cooperate with our using their country as a passage to the world's last oil reserves. As the PNACers said, all they needed was an event as catastrophic as Pearl Harbor to 'get the people to go along with these wars'. And look how lucky they were, four years after they wrote that, over a bunch of Saudi Arabians obliged them.

[BeyondGeography]

85. We are not targeting civilians...try to respond to what is written n/t

[sabrina 1]

116. Drones do not differentiate between civilians

and warlords or taliban fighters, yet we keep on killing them and claiming we killed terrorists.

The people of Afghanistan whose children are dead, don't agree with you. They have asked, and demonstrated in large numbers to make their point, that the US stop targeting their civilian population. Your opinion is irrelevant, it is what the victims of US bombs know, and the few brave investigative journalists who've witnessed what is happening there, whose opinions matter.

Keep defending wars if you wish, but at least learn the truth about what this country has done to so many innocent people and continues to do.

When the bombs are dropping on your loved ones, you get to decide whether they are more harmful if they deliberately targeted your neighbors and friends, or if they just didn't care if you happened to be in the way. I'm sure your take on this is a great comfort to the surviving family members of the women and children the old and disabled, our humanitarian bombs have destroyed.

This despicable attitude only confirms the worldwide perception that the US attitude is that the people they kill are after all, not as human as Americans.

[flyarm]

129. Thank You Sabrina1, what you stated could not be more correct or profound!

It is so easy to be arm chair warriors and excuse what has been done to so many innocent people , in our name, with our tax dollars. Personally I am damn sick and tired of the excuses on both sides of the Isle..it was soooo bad when Bush did it, but the excuses for this administration are gagging me, and I am not living with the devastation we are perpetrating with our bombs and drones on so many innocent civilians, in Afghanistan AND IRAQ. Nor what is being done to our military personel.

I have but one thing to say to those making the excuses..STFU!

[mntleo2]

145. We were also attacked by Saudis, Jordanians and others ...

...why aren't we going in those places when they were also our attackers?
I'll tell you one major reason why: we want Afganistan for an oil pipleline location for the rich entitles who want to make more money off our children's death, that is why.

We can also use them in a proxy war to force Pakistan and others to get in shape with our enforced policies with our children's sacrifice, that is why.

With as corrupt of a government as the Karzai people are, there is little reason for any afganistani to stand with us. Why? When we will leave them bereft with that corrupt government?

Helen is right, this is not a good move. It is sad because we could send in builders of schools,finding ways to work with and enhance these people, not shoot them. Soldiers are in existaence to KILL, not build communiies, they are taught to destroy them. If this is somehow bringing "peace" well how? I defy the convoluted thinking as to why any person would want peace when their whole family has been killed in a wedding party.

My 2 cents ...

Cat In Seattle

[Starry Messenger]

53. You will find this interesting, Bluebear

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=New_America_Foundation

* Eric Benhamou - Chairman & CEO, Benhamou Global Ventures and Chairman, 3Com Corporation
* Scott Delman - Founder, Capital Z Investment Partners
* James Fallows - Chairman, New America Foundation
* Francis Fukuyama - Bernard L. Schwartz Professor of International Political Economy, SAIS, Johns Hopkins University
* Ted Halstead - Founding President & CEO, New America Foundation
* Noosheen Hashemi - President, HAND Foundation
* Laurene Powell Jobs - President of the Board, College Track
* Kati Marton - Author and Journalist
* Walter Russell Mead - Henry A. Kissinger Senior Fellow for U.S. Foreign Policy, Council on Foreign Relations
* Lenny Mendonca - Chairman, McKinsey Global Institute
* Steven Rattner - Managing Principal, Quadrangle Group, LLC
* Diane Ravitch - Research Professor of Education, New York University
* Eric Schmidt - Chairman & CEO, Google, Inc.
* Bernard L. Schwartz - Retired Chairman and CEO, Loral Space & Communications Ltd.
* Anne-Marie Slaughter - Dean, Woodrow Wilson School, Princeton University
* Laura D'Andrea Tyson - Dean, London Business School
* Christine Todd Whitman - President, Whitman Strategy Group
* Daniel Yergin - Chairman, Cambridge Energy Research Associates
* Fareed Zakaria - Editor, Newsweek International


Fukuyama's name rather springs out at one. I guess PNAC got a facelift.

[Bluebear]

55. Aggh, Fukuyuma, one of the original signers-on of the PNAC

Lovely source.

[BeyondGeography]

64. Easier to cherry-pick a source name than it is to deal with the weaknesses of the Vietnam comparison

Moreover, a foundation member who isn't even quoted in the link. :eyes:

[Bluebear]

79. OK then. Between "beyondgeometry" or whatever & Helen Thomas, I'll take Helen.

[Le Taz Hot]

89. Henry Kissinger????

That's as far as I needed to read.

[MellowDem]

29. It's so stupid...

Trying to directly compare wars decades apart is a stupid and hopeless process. If someone doesn't like a war, they compare it to Vietnam. If they do, they compare it to WW2. Regardless, it's an impossible excercise.

As it is, the "people" generally agree the war is justified. And personally, I don't think the president should automatically listen to the American people and take their advice on everything, because generally, by and large, they are ignorant, uninformed, and apathetic (40% don't vote).

The excerpt you post seems to be nothing but how Vietnam is actually quite different from Afghanistan.

[Bluebear]

56. Fine, we will count you in the "Helen Thomas is stupid" column

[MellowDem]

58. No...

considering I never said that. Her argument, however, is. You can do better than trying to distort what I say, though, can't you? And who is "we"? Some Helen Thomas groupie club?

[Bluebear]

70. lol

[chill_wind]

59. Yeah, Wes Clark's comparisons are stupid, too.

:sarcasm:

[MellowDem]

65. I don't know what his comparison's are...

but just his being a general doesn't make them any less stuipd, if that is your implication.

[flyarm]

76. sure sounds like Vietnam to me..but what do some of us know,only our spouses and friends served

In Nam or were drafted, and we saw our friends come back with missing legs , or arms ..or never came back at all..wtf could we possibly know..And I stand firm with Helen she is 100% correct!

Now about all the wonderful changes some keep waiting for..and profess that this is different..take a look at this ............and thanks to the DU'er who posted this..I am copying as it will probably get unrec'ed by the Unrec crew!


No Firm Plans for a U.S. Exit in Afghanistan

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4173774

Source: NYTimes

December 7, 2009
No Firm Plans for a U.S. Exit in Afghanistan

By MARK MAZZETTI


WASHINGTON — The Obama administration sent a forceful public message Sunday that American military forces could remain in Afghanistan for a long time, seeking to blunt criticism that President Obama had sent the wrong signal in his war-strategy speech last week by projecting July 2011 as the start of a withdrawal.

In a flurry of coordinated television interviews, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and other top administration officials said that any troop pullout beginning in July 2011 would be slow and that the Americans would only then be starting to transfer security responsibilities to Afghan forces under Mr. Obama’s new plan.

The television appearances by the senior members of Mr. Obama’s war council seemed to be part of a focused and determined effort to ease concerns about the president’s emphasis on setting a date for reducing America’s presence in Afghanistan after more than eight years of war.

“We have strategic interests in South Asia that should not be measured in terms of finite times,” said Gen. James L. Jones, the president’s national security adviser, speaking on CNN’s “State of the Union.” “We’re going to be in the region for a long time.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/07/world/asia/07afghan.h...

anyone want to guess the number of dead we will have for a new wall in DC when this "LONG TIME" IS OVER?????????

[MellowDem]

99. In any war...

friends come back without legs, or arms, or not at all. The comparison doesn't make much sense beyond that.

[flyarm]

113. the hell it doesn't..we were lied into the Vietnam war, we were and continue to be lied into these

Wars..we killed so many innocent people in Vietnam , both ours and theirs and we have killed so many innocent in Afghanistan and Iraq , both ours and theirs for nefarious reasons and nothing but damn lies..and continue to do so now in fact we are escalating now in Afghanistan just like we did in Vietnam..for not damn good reason but greed and $$$$$$$$$$$$, and human beings will die for no damn reason but greed and the god almighty $$$$$$$$$$$$ for the elite of this country and others.

Our soldiers, along with innocent Women and children will die for no other reason than corporate welfare. They will be left with scars some seen and some not for lifetimes, as will their families, all for bogus lies and deceit. What is so damn different????????nothing in my eyes and the eyes of those who know it was all fucking lies that brought about so many needless deaths and scars of a war based on fucking lies, for the greed of few.

Our soldiers will have died for a fucking pipeline..at least tell them the gosh damn truth why they are going to die..and don't forget the fucking poppies!..same story just different location.

[knightinwhitesatin]

32. Thomas under the bus

in 3....2.....1

[QC]

35. It won't be her first time. n/t

[marshall]

37. She's the only one up there who can remember when we got started in Vietnam

Other than perhaps Robert Byrd, Thomas is best suited to give us the sense of what it was like back then.

[liberalhistorian]

38. Aren't we all hypersensitive here?

Even if I disagree with Helen Thomas or anyone else on this war--and I'm not sure that I do--I'm not about to attack anyone for a well formed and well stated opinion.


Oops--posted under my wife's user name. I KNOW she agrees with Helen Thomas.

[Individualist]

42. K&R, and thank you for posting that picture again.

[JohnnyLib2]

44. K & R

Simply put, she's credible.

[RufusTFirefly]

47. Who the Hell does she think she is?!!

With less than 50 years of experience as a White House correspondent, how can she possibly appreciate, let alone, understand, the inner workings of Washington??

[chill_wind]

"The similarities to Vietnam are ominous."

"The similarities to Vietnam are ominous. There, too, an insurgency was led and supported from outside the borders of the state in which our troops were fighting. There, too, sanctuaries across international borders stymied U.S. military efforts. There, too, broader political-strategic considerations weighed against military expansion of the conflict and forecast further struggles in the region.

And there, too, American public support slid away over time as our engagement ratcheted up and casualties mounted.

Our Vietnam experiences provide powerful lessons in how to explain strategy and retain public support, so we can ultimately succeed.

First, we must maintain a clear and unwavering purpose - and not overstate our accomplishments. In Vietnam, we seemed to change our objectives whenever they were seriously challenged. At one time or another we fought to halt Communist aggression from the North, to avoid the fall of the "Southeast Asian dominoes," to prevent a slaughter should the Viet Cong take over, and to maintain U.S. "credibility." And we kept promising "light at the end of the tunnel," until Tet shattered public expectations and support.

So in Afghanistan, we must avoid confusing Americans by citing too many justifications for our presence. We aren't there to create democracy for Afghans, stabilize a nuclear-armed Pakistan or deal with strategic rivalry on the subcontinent. These may be means to an end, but we must not lose public focus on Al Qaeda. And we must be cautious in claiming progress."

Obama must learn from Vietnam: Gen. Wesley Clark gives the President advice for Afghanistan

By Wesley Clark

Monday, August 17th 2009, 9:22 AM


http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/08/17/2009-08-17_obama_must_learn_from_vietnam_gen_wesley_clark_gives_the_president_advice_for_af.html


"The legacy of Vietnam really looms over these discussions," said Gen. Clark

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7036734

"You'll see it again when Barack Obama announces more troops for Afghanistan," Clark said, affirming his belief that U.S. President Barack Obama will decide to increase troop levels. NATO and the U.S. can still learn lessons from Cold War-era battles, too, Clark said, drawing parallels between Vietnam and Afghanistan, where he said the U.S. should find a way out quickly.

"One: the more troops you send, the more casualties you can take. The more casualties you take, the less public support you get," Clark said. In both Vietnam and Afghanistan, he continued, the enemy headquarters are in different countries than where the wars are being fought, further draining public support.

The difficulty of winning "hearts and minds" in Afghanistan is also similar to the problem in Vietnam: Westerners don't speak the language or know the culture.

"It was easy for us to win hearts and minds of the Germans – 25 percent of the U.S. population is German," Clark said. "But we don't speak Pashto or Dari. We can't tell friend from foe. We're waving at them and they're probably giving us the finger, and we don't even know it. … We're like invaders from outer space … People are afraid when you don't look like they look and don't come from the same place … It's human nature."

Nov 10, 2009 By Alison Hewitt
Wesley Clark: Can NATO survive Afghanistan?

http://www.today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/wesley-clark-can-nato-survive-112206.aspx


Yeah, what the hell would Wes Clark or Helen Thomas know.

[flyarm]

77. Thanks Chill wind for keep posting that and please keep doing so!!

Wes is right and so is Helen! And so are many of us who lived through Vietnam and seeing our friends and loved ones go to that hell hole, to die or be maimed or permanently effected by that travesty!

Keep speaking up Helen, no matter how many here want to throw you under the bus..I will always have your back , because I will always fight for the truth, and you Helen are "nothing but the truth" and have my utmost respect!!!

[chill_wind]

143. Keep the links.

You'll see a lot of revisionism flying around in months to come that he never said any such things in the lead-up.

But what's done now is done, and maybe Gates will eventually be made to take a hike. Clark has said he wouldn't refuse the job.

[chill_wind]

54. dupe delete

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

63. And, now we have 2011 as the new "Light at the the end of the tunnel". K&R

Conveniently near the 2012 election.

Of course, that's just a coincidence. :sarcasm:

[Amonester]

73. How convenient, indeed.

Let's try to 'foresee' how the retardlicans will 'use' this convenience which is 'handed' to them on a golden plate.

Fast forward to sometimes in June 2011: the December 2009 deadline is almost over, but the goalpost is (still) millions of miles away, as is always the case in all other 'unwinable' wars like this one (no surprise there: happened in Vietnam too).

President Obama, after consulting his (mostly neocon) group of advisers, decides not to end that (other) quagmire -- because he doesn't want the retardlicans (who R getting ready for their own primaries) to accuse him of 'cutting and running' (like they always do).

A year later, the official retardlican ticket go to their convention and 'promise' their own 'Light at the end of the tunnel' solution, adding that President Obama and his cabinet members have proven not to be capable of solving the problem in the last four years, and that they are not 'qualified' to solve it effectively.

I hate to be able to 'foresee' the future, sometimes, but 'those who ignore History are doomed to repeat it' is so true, unfortunately.

Too many chose to ignore it.

[neshanic still]

69. Love her. She's the best.

[madrchsod]

71. her new book is going to be great

i`m actually going to break down and read a book again....

we love ya helen!

[madrchsod]

72. here`s her new book.....

http://www.annarbor.com/news/detroit-native-helen-thomas-says-its-always-good-to-be-home-again/

[Taitertots]

75. It is not like Vietnam yet

We haven't left under the guise of having created peace, only to leave millions of innocent people to be slaughtered. For it to be Vietnam we would have to sign a peace treaty that we know neither party will abide, then refuse to honor our commitments within the deal.

[Solly Mack]

78. K/R

[Vidar]

81. K&R.

[McCamy Taylor]

82. Nixon ran on "Four years is enough" then he escalated the war. Obama is gonna escalate the war.

Does Obama really want to emulate Nixon in this time of economic crisis? I thought he was gonna be FDR.

[Toasterlad]

83. Why Does Helen Thomas Hate America?

[malaise]

84. Bravo Helen

Keep on speaking truth to power.

[blindpig]

91. If it walks like a duck....

[pleah]

94. K&R

[Smashcut]

96. K&R

[guyton]

97. what was that definition of insanity again?

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Or was it really believing that you're the most qualified person to be POTUS?

[Javaman]

98. Perhaps if we had more Senile Old Biddies, there would be some accountability. nt

[bdamomma]

101. take note is correct.

plus we are in free fall due to economy.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

103. Ha! Like She Knows More Than Anonymous Internet Posters on DU!

Piffle, what does this old bat know? When compared to all the "experts" here on DU cheering the surge from their living rooms??? Nothing, I tell you, nothing! Go, Fight Kill! USA! USA! USA!

[earth mom]

104. Helen Rocks!

:applause:

[DFW]

108. Helen makes no bones about her age, and she and I don't always see eye to eye, but senile?

Senile is the one thing I can promise any and all of you she is not, and I'm betting I know her better and
longer than anyone on this board. She has her opinions, and they are based on more experience in DC than
just about anyone alive except maybe Bobby Byrd. I don't always agree with her on every point, especially
the Middle East, but she is Arab, and I am not, so that's logical. I'm still one of the jury-is-out on
Afghanistan, but I sure as hell respect her opinion enough to listen to every word, absorb it, and take
it into consideration when deciding for myself what's what.

[ooglymoogly]

110. "Obama won a mandate in 2008 to pull up Bush's war stakes" O

misinterpreted that mandate to mean; Pull the wooden stakes out of Bushcabal's heart, driven there by the voters, so he could continue sucking the the blood of this country dry and turning it into Oligarchical fascist state of masters and zombies.

[treestar]

111. Obama got a mandate to continue Afghanistan

Since that was how he campaigned.

[Bluebear]

114. That's right, I'm sure every American remembers every stop he made where he mentioned it.

:silly:

[flyarm]

115. AND I bet they remember his "REMADE" tape of his anti war speech that hardly anyone saw that was

not taped originally, but "remade" so he could say he was anti war ..and use it over and over again on the campaign trail!

[avaistheone1]

119. No, Obama did not. The primary issue that swayed voters to elect Obama was to get us out of Iraq,

not into Afghanistan. Obama's platform to escalate into Afghanistan was never popular among Democrats or Independents during the election or afterward.

Even Obama admitted in his speech at West Point that the country is polarized about Afghanistan. Obama missed the primary lesson of Vietnam: never go to war unless there is broad support from the American people.

[dflprincess]

148. In that case he also got mandate to NOT endorse forced purchase

of private insurance (aka "mandates") since that's how he campaigned.

[mullard12ax7]

117. Didn't ya hear, the almight POTUS knows everything, WEEEEEEEEEEEEE

That is one lame ass line that I'm tire of hearing from...yes here it comes...CHEER LEADERS. I'll take it one step further and call them brainwashed dupes that are no different than the torture-supporting, war criminal-excusing, corporate whore supporters.

[liberation]

124. Hey that is not fair! He did not promise during the campaign that he is going to know everything...

... so technically you can't fault him for not knowing everything.

(I think that was the latest excuse d'jour, apparently we can't hold presidents accountable for not doing the right thing so long as they don't promise us to do it in the campaign, or they already tell us they are going to do the wrong thing. Funny how that was not a viable excuse during Bush's reign of fun and games... because he too was doing what he had "promised")

[liberation]

122. It is worse than VietNam

at least with LBJ we got to benefit from his "I am finally free" moment that lead to some meaningful civil rights legislation, and he was somewhat sincere in his hopes for bettering this society and the lives of common Americans.

So far with Mr. Obama we're getting the same ol' useless wars sans any meaningful/decent domestic legislation. I.e. we don't even get the lousy t-shirt to show for all the lives and money we're wasting overseas.

[Jennicut]

125. I think it is a total mistake but it does not even come close.

We have no draft. We will not lose nearly as many soldiers. Now in terms of money going down the drain, there can be a true comparison made there.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

127. Will we soon be hearing talk of "peace with honor"?

How many more will die while we chase that ghost?

[penndragon69]

128. Bless you Helen!

You are still the belle of the ball!

[David Zephyr]

131. #117 Rec.

K&R.

[seattle_blue]

135. Helen Thomas ia an American treasure!

[cleverusername]

137. Helen is right.

I agree with Helen.

It's insulting when people call an accomplished, experienced woman an "old biddy." I don't hear any old, male politicians being called an "old fogey" (and there are plenty of them). :eyes:

[Nikki Stone1]

138. BLESS YOU HELEN!

You are AWESOME.

[Autonomy]

139. "Taliban, which has been growing in strength"

I honestly don't remember the part where the Viet Cong assisted in attacking the USA homeland. Did I just miss that in my history books?

[RetroLounge]

141. K&R

Love you Helen!

RL

[Divine Discontent]

146. spoken like a true American journalism hero!

[Major Hogwash]

149. Helen broke the mold and set the standards for getting out the facts.

And, of course, she's right about Afghanistan.