For those complainers, think how bad it would be if McCain and Repubs had won?

[kentuck]

We would probably still be in Iraq and Afghanistan. We would still have prisoners in Guantanamo. And I bet the unemployment rate would be over 10%. They would be debating healthcare in the Senate but nothing worthwhile would really get passed. Of course, they would have taken trillions of dollars to save our banking system, while Main Street continued to suffer. And they would have done nothing to investigate the crimes of the previous Administration. It's a good thing they did not win, isn't it?

[Captain Hilts]

1. Everyone here is glad the Dems won. It's strawman to say otherwise. nt

[stray cat]

21. I've seen DUers post this is Bush's 3rd term and this isn't change

[Captain Hilts]

25. That doesn't mean they wanted McCain to win. And, yes, 'Bush's 3rd term' is a stupid thing to say.

[MNDemNY]

36. phiiiiit.

[DrDan]

2. Probably would have continued the Patriot Act . . . and blocked document access . . . and continued

funding of abstinence-only programs

darned good thing those weenies are not in power . . . and

[NOW tense]

3. .

[madokie]

4. Whats the matter Kentuck is your pony the wrong kind or

heaven forbid, the wrong color?

[kentuck]

7. I don't ride the corporate pony...

and I do not ride the big bank's pony either. Neither do I ride the pony into Afghanistan. Call it whatever you want. Just be honest.

[emulatorloo]

30. I think you are oversimplifying.

I think you being honest in how you feel, but I think you are oversimplifying in order to reach the most negative conclusion., and paint Obama and Dems with the vilest of motives.

The reality of whatt is going on is more complicated.

I addressed why I think this in a post below

[kentuck]

38. What is the alternative.

Silent agreement? Faith that they will change? Sometimes we may need to let them know when they are doing shit that is unacceptable. We did the same thing with Clinton, with NAFTA, GATT, welfare reform, the Telecommunications Act, the repeal of the banking laws, etc. And we said nothing because he was a Democrat. Just what is a "Democrat"? It's hard to tell anymore.

[emulatorloo]

46. Who said anything about "silent agreement?" I call my Senator at least every two weeks.

About these issues.

But I don't start from the premise that Senator Tom Harkin is a corporate whore and a war monger and is no better than a Republican.

Because that would make me irrational.

I know what Harkin's values are. I also know he is pretty powerful in the Senate. and knows what the rules are and knows how to work things

Harkin is not the only good Dem in the Senate. We are talking about a handful who are causing big trouble.

The answer is to elect better and more Dems.

Not claim they are "All Just Like Republicans" so that people will get demoralized and sit home in 2010 while the teabaggers come out in full force.

[kentuck]

47. "The answer is to elect better and more Dems."

But that is not possible.

Because we have people here on DU that will argue that a better Democrat cannot be elected. They live in "red" states. So they continue to vote for these Republicans in disguise and the entire Party is blocked from doing anything constructive. Whose fault is it? As if a real Democrat, like Tom Harkin, could not have won after the Republican disaster of the last eight years.

[emulatorloo]

50. Those people are wrong. Lincoln for example is not representing her constituents

at all on the public option from what I have read.

[laughingliberal]

51. Well, you are blessed with a Senator who is part of the Democratic wing of the Democratic party

It does seem to be a handful of RW asshole dems in the Senate causing the problems. My alarm is that they seem to get an awful lot of support from the administration. Stories of Rahm pounding on the progressives to work with the blue whores and insulting the progressives do not encourage me to think they are working towards much of a progressive agenda.

[madokie]

39. The man has been President for less than a year

he came into a big mess brought on by some of the things you mentioned. It will take some time to get us out of this mess. He is not going to go about it the same as anyone on the street would because he's sees a different picture than we do

[kentuck]

45. I know he inherited a mess.

I just don't feel comfortable with the way he is "cleaning" it up. Yes, Tim Geithner and Larry Summers are much smarter than I. Yes, General Petraeus and Bob Gates know more about Afghanistan than I do. The President agrees with them. I disagree. I think he is going the wrong direction. And I do not hesitate to say so.

[saltpoint]

5. I bet the farm on Cynthia McKinney. I was just absolutely POSITIVE she would

win.

[JVS]

6. lol

[VMI Dem]

8. Heh.

[Donnachaidh]

9. LOL +1000

Of course, the unrec squad has already posted guards on your thread :rofl:

[bigtree]

10. of course it's a good thing

. . . but it would be a mistake to fixate on that point. Our responsibility to evaluate, judge, and participate in our political process is not restricted to just elections.

[blindpig]

11. Yep, they'd be blowing up mountain tops too

and engineering climate change mitigation that doesn't do a lick of good except to make some well placed people rich.

Oh, wait.....

k&r

[Le Taz Hot]

12. Unrec for one more

"he's better than McCain" meme. You guys better get your DLC base together for 2012 because he's losing women and gays by the MILLIONS. But cheer up, think of ALL that corporate loot coming your way.

[rurallib]

13. It would be horrid, but the media would be telling us things are wonderful

and would be ignoring reality with lots of diversion stories.
I always make the comparison between Reagan and Clinton. Reagan was a horrible president, but the media made him look really good. Clinton was decent as president, but the media portrayed him in a horrid light.
That is what would have happened with any (R) - media love to the point of beatification. And of course half the country would be taken in.

[laughingliberal]

14. Thanks, I've grown weary of this false dichotomy getting thrown out any time someone disagrees with

what is going on in the administration or the legislative bodies. It's disingenuous, dishonest, and just plain stupid. And they can ditch that pony shit anytime, too. Neither of these arguments lead to any real discussion and are meant to silence dissent. And we were all so impressed with the Republican's stifling of dissent, weren't we?

[msongs]

19. the true believers now claim ppl who disagree are the left equivalent of "teabags" nt

[laughingliberal]

37. Yeah, I've posted about that a couple of times lately. It's over the line

Anyone who uses that slur is not worthy of intelligent debate.

[Bigmack]

15. ANYTHING is better than Repubs...

because there is always a chance that things will get better when Dems are in. Under Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II, things just got more and more fucked up.

I'm pissed at Obama and the Dems for their inaction and gradualism, but with the Repubs we'd be moving down into uncharted territory.

[MindPilot]

16. McCain and Palin would be a hell of a lot more entertaining.

This serious smart guy is just not doing much for the comedy-writing industry.

[Pirate Smile]

17. Right. It would make no difference. McCain would have probably appointed the first Latino to the

Supreme Court too and I'm sure it would be a left leaning justice. No difference - just like Gore and Bush. Doesn't really matter. Lets do that again. :eyes:

Let's let Republicans take over Congress in 2010 because there isn't any real difference between the parties. I mean, really, what could possibly go wrong. :eyes:

[LibDemAlways]

18. I've accepted that the D's and R's answer to the same

corporate and military masters. It's only a matter of degree. I do suspect many were duped into thinking Obama was going to represent huge change with all his talk of "Yes We Can." However, he was never anything but a moderate who is good at giving a speech. During the campaign people heard what they wanted to hear. Next time around will be interesting. Will the base stick with him, stay home, or look elsewhere?

[kentuck]

20. Pardon me...

if it seems there is not a whole of difference up to this point. It appears the corporate takeover and the Pentagon dictates are complete. I will wait for this to be disproved. Because I have no other choice.

[emulatorloo]

22. Kentuck you are way OVERSIMPLIFYING

-- we are drawing down in Iraq

-- Obama campainged on "finishin the job" in Afghanistan. it is what it is. He has set a date. McCain and Repubs want open ending.

-- Obama is trying to close Guantanamo, the Republicans have orchestrated a successful SCARE campaign that has stopped him in his tracks. For the time being.

-- Healthcare- Anybody who was been playing close attention can see how the Republicans are gaming the system. There are still too many Republicans, especially in the Senate. If our numbers were better, Lieberman Nelson Lincoln would not matter.

-- banking/mainstreet - Bush had no restrictions on the tarp money, obama has put some in. The stimulus is creating jobs. Their will be some kind of jobs initiative coming up. McCain? totally different

-- holder has some kind of limited investigation. Who knows where it will lead. If a can of worms gets opened . . . then he will have to sort them all out.

All of this is overlaid by something I dont understand: THE MEDIA IS ACTING AS IF THE REPUBLICANS ARE RELEVANT AND ACTING IN GOOD FAITH. And given a platform to spew their bullshit (Terrorist in your home town, Death Panels, governmentrunhealthcare).

I don't remember Dems being given the same kind of exposure or credibility during the BUsh years.

[kentuck]

28. There is a minimum that I expect from the Democratic Party.

and they have not met it. They have super-glued their lips to the corporate teat. They are marching lockstep with the generals at the Pentagon. And it could not be more obvious who they are interested in saving, Main Street or Wall Street. They have failed the test, from my point of view.

Of course, the Republicans would have failed also. Probably much more grandly? But that does not excuse the Democratic Party from acting like Republicans.

[LibDemAlways]

35. I'm with you. Theoretically the Dems have a good set of principles. They

just aren't committed to acting on them. Lately it's been bait and switch.

[emulatorloo]

40. The way our govt is set up Pres/Congress/Supreme Court

Checks and Balances are not really conducive to "rapid change" It takes time it gets messy, you have to go back in and tweek.

"They have super-glued their lips to the corporate teat. They are marching lockstep with the generals at the Pentagon."

This is such an oversimplication I can't take it seriously. (and you are one of my favorite posters at DU)

Sorry, It seems about as rational as "Obama has a secret plot to destroy America and has filled the congress with radical leftists"

The pentagon is not getting everything it wants, nor are the corporations.

There are many many dems politicians whose hearts are in the right place, are Dems for the same reasons you and I are, and are in public service because they want to make a significant improvement in the lives of most American.

[still_one]

23. That should not mean that criticism should not be levied at the current administration

That being said, it is troubling when I see some of the attacks by progressives on Obama and his administration, almost a virulent as the attacks made by the right wing, though for different reasons

Legitimate discussions and arguments regarding Afghanistan, health care, and other issues of critical importance must be aired, however, when equating the current administration to the bush administration, is not only hyperbole, but blatantly false

[Javaman]

24. This is the most disingenuous type of post.

mclame and failin didn't win. As as such we have to use those to morons to contrast policy Obama puts forth that we don't agree with?

So now we become just another form of repuke? We all have to walk lock step? We all have to become ditto heads?

For christ sakes, WTF?

Yeah, I'm pissed.

We elected a dem so we CAN think for ourselves and not be subject to one mind stupidity.

Good god. How far we have fallen.

[emulatorloo]

26. As I read it, the point of his post is "Obama = McCain" and "Dems = Republicans"

Which I think is a huge oversimplication.

[kentuck]

33. There are many good Democrats in the Congress.

But they are not enough to lead the Party. They Party is presently led by DLC'ers and moderates masquerading as Democrats, and do nothing but stymie any and all legislation meant to help the people. The real Democratic Party, FOR THE PEOPLE, is a minority within our own Party. We are frozen by the compromises and republicanism within our ranks. They are destroying, DESTROYING, our Democratic Party.

[MadHound]

27. Let's see here,

We're still in Iraq, and Afghanistan. We still have prisoners in Gitmo, and we've still got prisoners at Bagram airbase (the other torture spot that nobody is talking about). The health care reform bill that is currently being debated really isn't worthwhile, and yes, we took trillions of dollars of money to save the banking system, while Main Street still continues to suffer. Oh, and we've done virtually nothing to investigate the previous administration.

Gotta love that change.

[LibDemAlways]

29. But it's ok, because the President has a "D" after his name. All those

things are bad only if the guy in charge is an "R." :eyes:

[NNN0LHI]

31. Yea, maybe we could have had another Antonin Scalia clone as our last Supreme Court Justice

Makes it easier to steal elections that way.



I don't know about you kentuck but I would not have been able to sleep at night knowing either McCain or Palin was in control of the nuclear football. Just like it was with Bush.

I have been sleeping good lately.

Past 9 months or so anyway.

Don

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Did you forget the sarcasm smilie?

[asdjrocky]

34. That's kind of like a battered spouse saying-

"He only hits me when he's drunk."

[countingbluecars]

41. How clever.

Unrec

[Romulox]

42. "Don't blame me. *I* voted for Kodos!"

[liberalmuse]

43. How about....

War with Iran, 23% unemployment, impending war with Venezuela, an administration who supports torture, and demonizes anyone who doesn't agree with them? But you go on and hate on Obama. Some lefties must have so much leftover hate from Bush that they and are using Obama as a substitute - and that just sucks. All or nothing, right? I mean, one man isn't doing everything he can to make YOU happy, so fuck him! God forbid you give President Obama credit for anything. He has mountains of shit accumulated from the Bush cabal over the course of 8 years and he hasn't cleaned it all up in 11 months. Shame on him! No. Shame on you. Go ahead. You may just get your wish (well, a President Palin, anyway). I'm done reading this shit here, and I'm unrecing and hiding this bitch. I can't tell some lefties from teabaggers these days, and that's really scary.

[Echo In Light]

44. Has ZERO bearing on whether current admin's policy choices should be criticized or not

[robdogbucky]

48. Everybody knows...

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows
Everybody knows that the boat is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died

Everybody talking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates
And a long stem rose
Everybody knows....

< LEONARD COHEN LYRICS at www.AZLyrics.com >


But it's only been almost a year. Keep your powder dry.

[robdogbucky]

49. Everybody knows...

That a dupe needs to be deleted

[mmonk]

52. .

:rofl:


:popcorn:

[roseBudd]

53. WE would be in a Depression with 20% unemployment & Paris Hilton would be richer

[laughingliberal]

54. Here's where I have to wonder about the bashers of the left

you know, those people who want to call us whiners and throw up the straw men and label and belittle us. I put up a post with a link to a story about an amendment which will be offered by Rockerfeller, Lincoln, and Franken to the HCR bill last night. It is one of the few things I've seen in weeks which is encouraging. If it passes and is included in the final bill, it could be one thing which would, actually, reign the cartels in and lower costs to the insurance companies' customers. It sank like a rock. It was positive. It is proof that those of us who are dissatisfied are not all about the negative, most pessimistic view. But those who claim to be big supporters of our elected Democratic officials are more about staying in the flame wars trying to tear down those who disagree with them than discussing this, decidedly, positive possibility for HCR.

[L0oniX]

55. Yea ...let's not complain about the wars , after all, they could have dropped a nuke.

:nuke:

[HughMoran]

56. Ever going to post non-snark ever again?

Just curious?

[kentuck]

57. I know it's difficult...

to think about things in uncomfortable ways. It doesn't fit the formula. However, in my opinion, it is good to think in ways that challenge the status quo.

[kentuck]

58. Many people here fought against Bush and Cheney for 8 long years...

They did not fight to continue the policies of George W Bush. It is discouraging. And their patience is not without end. Their support is not automatic and there is the real danger that the Party will lose these people if they continue to kowtow to the few "conservative moderates" in the Party that go along with the Republicans. Either the leadership cracks down on them hard or they stand to lose a much greater prize - the base of the Party. Joe Lieberman has called the shots long enough. If he wants to be a Republican, turn his sorry ass loose.

[HughMoran]

59. So snark is the way to open people's eyes to uncomfortable truths?

1st of all, you said the same thing when I commented on a previous snakasm thread of yours (been several over the weekend); secondly, I don't see these sorts of posts as quite the enlightening "eye openers" that you do. But, who am I to criticize, right? Carry on - have a blast...

[kentuck]

60. That's your description.

I don't agree with it. I think it is the uncomfortable truth. And some people can't handle the truth.

[MercutioATC]

61. Think how bad it would be if a large meteor hit the Earth...

...or if human-eating aliens invaded...

...or if the Sun just went out...

:eyes:

[havocmom]

62. My concern is that we are setting the stage for Mitt & the Repubs next cycle

Thinking there is a lot of same ol same ol no matter which party is at the helm, cus the real helm is in corporate boardrooms where we don't get to vote.

Are campaigns and elections just the circus to keep us busy?

[kentuck]

64. That is exactly the reason we are where we are...

Nobody is willing to hold the people they vote for responsible. Oh, but if we did that, then the Republicans will win the next election. Be happy with the crumbs you get. It could be a lot worse. Indeed. There will be a revolt in the Democratic Party unless they get their shit together soon.

[Karmadillo]

63. Don't forget the moronic education policies of the Bush administration. We'd still be

hearing about standardized testing and tying teachers' salaries to scores. We'd probably even end up with a call for principals to be more like CEOs. And then there would be the constant pressure for more charter schools. Thank heavens for change.

[kentuck]

65. Also, the Lillie Ledbetter Act..

I have not forgotten. Now, if they could just raise the minimum wage one more time...

[harun]

66. They would have done nothing to reduce cost of college tuition, not built any high speed rail,

they would not have ended the embargo against Cuba, done nothing to make housing more affordable, we wouldn't have Single Payer Health care, we wouldn't have reduced military spending, we wouldn't have ended the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, we wouldn't have capped interest rates on our credit cards, we wouldn't be able to buy affordable electric cars, the corporate media wouldn't have been broken up, etc. etc.

We'd be in a real pile of shit if they'd been elected, that's for sure.

[county worker]

67. That's like my mom saying eat my green beans because kids are starving in China.

No relevance at all.