A woman was slaughtered viciously in 1991, the murderer was killed by the state of Ohio today.

[Divine Discontent]

Kenneth Biros, in what he called a drunken-rage, killed 22-year-old Tami Engstrom near Warren in 1991 after offering to drive her home from a bar, then scattered her body parts in Ohio and Pennsylvania. Before dying Tuesday, he consulted with Buddhists that had been visiting him, and apologized for his crime and thanked his friends and relatives for supporting him.

"I'm being paroled to my father in heaven," Biros said. "I will now spend all of my holidays with my Lord and savior, Jesus Christ. Peace be with you."

With the white scarf by his side that the Buddhists gave him, that symbolized a blessing, his life was taken at 11:47am.


-------

My Thoughts:

I am more mortified by the vicious murder and dismembering of the woman the killer, Biros, took from her family. His action of scattering her body about were not even remotely explainable, and how anyone could be so evil/crazy is beyond understanding. I am of the firm belief that bars should cut people off when they start appearing drunken - let them go buy their own liquor and take it home. I realize they don't want to lose money, but alcohol and drugs are often involved in violent crimes.

Upon hearing of his being killed today by the state of Ohio, with a brand new style of execution (anesthesia based, then the killer drug), I cannot support what the state did.

Life is precious. Even though this man didn't 'deserve' to be breathing in many of our minds, we should always be the sane and "bigger person", and forgive even the most despicable actions. I would not even dare to imply that I wouldn't be incredibly angry and sickened for days or even years, if I were to lose someone close to me in the manner they lost their friend & daughter, Tami Engstrom all those years ago. But, the vengeance that hate brings is not healthy.

They had captured the man who took their dear friend from them so viciously. Prison is no paradise, and what good comes from taking another life. Surely, this man who has stated he was drunken and clearly depressed, went beyond the realm of rational thought when he committed this vile act against life, but we are no better by stopping his breathing.

Two of my friends, a best friend & his mom went off one night about a criminal who had done something vile to a small child, and they both were vicious and cold in their demands that the monster be put to death - guilty or not - they wanted him dead. Two years later I found out that the mother and the son had stolen thousands from a store 25 years ago, and that the son had molested his three underage nephews for 10 years. Just one example, but my point is, I'm amazed at how readily people are willing to take the life of someone they don't know who may have committed a profound crime, but so quick to ignore their or their loved ones own.

I want to believe, and do, that even when incarcerated, that there is hope for a soul to change. And, that's why I am very disheartened to see the Democratic governor of Ohio, who is to be a man of mercy in his role as an ordained Methodist minister, be so willing to end another life because of a horrible and deranged action on that cold night in February 1991.

You may disagree with me, and approve of killing people that do these unthinkable actions. I don't disallow anyone the rage over the sickening action. I have more sadness in my heart for the woman who was brutalized by the sick man who is now dead. But, it does not change the fact that I disagree, and wholeheartedly believe sick people are to be locked up, not killed.



United Methodist 53 year old faith statement against Capital Punishment -

We believe the death penalty denies the power of Christ to redeem, restore and transform all human beings. The United Methodist Church is deeply concerned about crime throughout the world and the value of any life taken by a murder or homicide. We believe all human life is sacred and created by God and therefore, we must see all human life as significant and valuable. When governments implement the death penalty (capital punishment), then the life of the convicted person is devalued and all possibility of change in that person's life ends. We believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and that the possibility of reconciliation with Christ comes through repentance. This gift of reconciliation is offered to all individuals without exception and gives all life new dignity and sacredness. For this reason, we oppose the death penalty (capital punishment) and urge its elimination from all criminal codes.


Death Penalty Facts
# Since executions were reinstated in 1977, over 130 death row inmates have been exonerated
# 90% of Tennessee’s death row inmates could not afford to hire their own defense at trial.
# Inmates convicted of murdering a white person are more than 3 times as likely to be sentenced to death than those convicted of murdering an African-American.
# Capital punishment is a far more expensive system than one whose maximum punishment is life without parole, diverting resources from real crime prevention efforts.
# At least 5-10% of those on death row suffer from severe mental illness while at least 100 of those executed since 1977 suffered from some form of mental illness.
# A recent survey of former and past presidents of top U.S. academic criminological societies show that 88% of these experts reject the notion that the death penalty acts as a deterrent to murder.

[goldcanyonaz]

1. I won't be losing any sleep over this.

[ZombieHorde]

5. Do you loose sleep over the content of the other threads you read?

[Divine Discontent]

6. And that is not shocking. A certain amount of people don't care if someone's heart is stopped,

especially if that someone on a specific day in their life did the most horrible thing possible in taking a life.

Before you so quickly cast off any thought over it, and whether you even read the OP, my question to you is - what about YOU - what happens if you or your sibling, or wife/husband or best friend gets put on death row for being in the wrong place and the wrong time and because they don't have money, get lousy representation, and their breath is stopped? There's plenty of reasons to stop the killing of people, two of which I stated, others are racism, or callousness towards the defendant for whatever judgmental reason, or simply being set up by someone, or the law enforcement thinking they definitely have their killer and someone lies about some 'facts', and an innocent dies and gets put in the ground - it's happened many times.

I'm not saying this killer was innocent, but the death penalty is not a deterrent, like people that kill think of the death penalty, it's often caused by drugged or drunken rage, or a mental illness in a jilted lover or financial disagreement.

But, thanks for letting us know you won't lose any sleep.

[goldcanyonaz]

7. You have a right to your opinion as I have a right to mine.

I respect your opinion and wish you would afford me the same respect even though we disagree.

[Divine Discontent]

11. Making snark about not losing sleep is an opinion? Okay. Yes, I respect your right to not care

about him being put in the dirt, it was just the non-expressiveness of your comment that I clearly responded to.

I'm glad you read my response.

Best to you, even though we disagree.

[JonQ]

18. You have two different arguments

one that the DP is wrong, the other that falsely executing people is wrong (and a minor third one about not deterring people).

Obviously there is a moral difference between executing an innocent person and a murderer.

Does life in prison deter would-be murderers?

[Raineyb]

21. Not obvious at all

The only difference between execution and murder is sanction.

And the deterrence factor is a rubbish argument for the death penalty. Most people don't think about the penalties before committing their crimes in the first place.

[JonQ]

28. Which is a pretty big difference

we give the government authority to do many things we are not allowed to do our selves.

If executions = murder then jailing people = kidnapping and imprisonment. Taxes, tickets, and imminent domain = theft.

"And the deterrence factor is a rubbish argument for the death penalty. Most people don't think about the penalties before committing their crimes in the first place."

So then the DP is not a deterrent in this case, I submit that no punishment would have been. So it is not and argument for or against the DP, merely an observation.

[Occulus]

43. moral absolutism of that sort rarely if ever works in the real world n/t

[reggie the dog]

53. executions ARE CLEARLY murder when the executed is innocent

the only sure way to avoid killing the occaisonal innocent person is to not have the death penalty at all.

[PatSeg]

76. When we lock someone up in prison for life,

we pretty much know what we have done to that person and what kind of life they have been condemned to. When we kill a person, we only know we've taken away their physical life, but being no one knows for certain what death actually is, we don't know if we've punished them or perhaps done them a favor by mercifully releasing them from a painful earthly experience.

It is a matter of definitions. We can define life imprisonment, but we cannot define death with any real certainty, as the meaning of death is contingent on one's belief system.

[Divine Discontent]

23. nothing deters would be murderers. so why kill people to enact vengeance?

and, if I have many arguments, wouldn't that strengthen my argument? you know the arguments, you just read them. I'm sure there are more facts, but the biggest arguments for me, are that it's a moral problem and that innocent people are put to death. Not to mention lack of deterrence, people of minority status being given the shaft at a much higher rate, law enforcement shenanigans.

[goldcanyonaz]

26. It's unfortunate in my opinion that the death penalty wasn't an option in the Bernie Madoff case.

Of course it's entirely another topic.

[Divine Discontent]

30. so, you won't lose any sleep, but you come back to say you would support Madoff being killed?

you're just trying to stir up an argument. I'm not that kind of person, I'm just saying the DP is not a good thing. If you wish to state how it is truly useful, other than to enact vengeance, then let 'er rip... ha.

[goldcanyonaz]

64. I'm not trying to stir up an argument at all. I just feel differently than you do.

I'm not going to change your mind and I'm not trying to either.

[JonQ]

29. You tried to equate two different things

essentially that the immorality of this in your opinion stems from executing innocent people, not the execution itself. That is a false comparison to make.

[Divine Discontent]

36. I am letting you know, I am against the death penalty for moral grounds as a Christian, if I wasn't

clear enough, I apologize. Secondly, innocents are always going to be killed with the DP, and all the other issues, to boot.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

83. It certainly deters convicted murderers who are executed.

[reggie the dog]

51. Does the death penalty deter would be murders any better?

we have far less murderers per 100 000 people in France than you have in the USA and here a life sentence rarely means longer than 30 years.

[MineralMan]

45. I'll alert the media to your lack of concern.

I'm sure you'll make the front page.

[Gman]

2. The death penalty in this case was not a deterrent

in fact it never crossed his mind. There is nothing that justifies the death penalty, not even something this heinous. I will always maintain that the taking of the life of another person is not a rational act, which to me is a sign of insanity. People that are insane should not be put to death. Take them off the streets forever, put them away forever. But the killing in revenge through government sanctioned execution does nothing.

[JonQ]

19. If being put to death

doesn't cross his mind then I very much doubt 50 years in jail would have.

So no, in this case not a deterrent. But neither would any penalty be. So that is neither and argument for or against the death penalty. It is a moot point.

[reggie the dog]

55. I agree, neither is a deterrent

so we go to the most pressing reason to not execute people ever, the only way to avoid executing innocent people from time to time, whereby the state becomes the murderous monster, is to get rid of the death penalty all together. Life in jail is the best idea for heinous crimes. That way if an innocent is convicted and they end up clearing their name we can let them out of jail.

[Gman]

98. All very true

[EOTE]

3. Thank you. One horrific act does not deserve another.

While these sick and twisted acts make it difficult, one can't support the death penalty "just a little". It's wrong when an individual does it, it's wrong when the state does it. And those DP facts you list do a pretty damned good job of explaining how many problems there are with the DP as it's currently implemented.

[Divine Discontent]

9. thanks, and at the last minute my thoughts clicked in and said, hey, go get the

Methodist call against the DP, and a couple of the facts.

[kctim]

4. I understand and respect your position

but, thank you Ohio.

[Divine Discontent]

8. My goodness, he was incarcerated. I could fully accept you thinking the death penalty being just.

But to actually thank the state for putting him in the ground? Really. Again, I could understand if you think it's a deterrent, but to thank them seems a bit much. (and I see mr. misogynist pig from family guy as your avatar! nice... ha, he grosses me out)

[kctim]

38. Yes, really

I thank the state of Ohio for making sure, 100%, without a doubt, that this scum will never have the chance to prey upon another innocent.

As far as the Quag man, to each their own you know.

[mitchum]

10. Life is indeed precious...and that was the reason for John Stuart Mill's...

argument in favor of capital punishment.
I'm with Mill.
And Biro? He is no longer with us.

[Divine Discontent]

14. I respect that opinion. It still isn't a deterrent, as Mill would wish it was.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

20. "Great" people may be wrong. Jesus was against divorce. He was wrong.

And Mills was too.

[mitchum]

68. That alleged Jesus figure was also wrong about that getting down with the pig thing

At least Mill loooooved pork

[reggie the dog]

56. what does Mill say we can do to redress the problem

of executing an innocent person?

[mitchum]

65. The library is your friend...or maybe a Ouija board?

[reggie the dog]

69. I have read some mill before

what did he say about the state killing innocent people?

[mitchum]

71. Reread him (and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt with that "re")

[reggie the dog]

77. yeah, because I would lie about reading John Stuart Mill

[mitchum]

80. Hey, I lied about reading Erasmus

It happens!

[Nikki Stone1]

12. He had 18 more years of life than his victim had.

Somehow, that seems unfair.

[Lex]

17. Maybe we should've killed him in the same way. You know, to be fair.

nt

[goldcanyonaz]

22. I bet that would detour a lot of murders if the punishment mirrored the crime.

[Lex]

37. Detour them, eh? If we tried hard enough, we could be the Taliban and

really get down to business chopping off fingers and cutting out tongues.

[rd_kent]

75. That is the dumbest post of the day. Congrats.

[Lex]

85. LOL. Right over your head.

Not surprised.

[rd_kent]

86. No, I got the detour part.

But not the rest.

[reggie the dog]

59. why is the murder rate so much lower

in places like France, Belgium, Luxembourg, the UK etc. than it is in the USA? The death penalty is illegal in all of the countries I mentioned so why are there less murders per hundred thousand people than there are in the USA?

[reggie the dog]

57. It is unfair

that is why he should have spent his natural life in a cage, and in some cases we convict innocent people and senetence them to death, which is why the death penalty is morally bancrupt, due to error it leads to the killing of innocent people.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. Thank you for a thread which is not a celebration of this man's death.

This man clearly had mental issues - the horrific things he did were not simply a twisted expression of drunken anger. He probably needed to spend the rest of his life segregated from society - I suspect such levels of insanity can't be cured - but that is not reason to execute him.

[Divine Discontent]

15. very succinctly put - very powerful. thanks for your input! I hope others read your post.

[gorfle]

16. End the death penalty.

The state should not have the power to kill its citizens.

I am not interested in any religious reasons for this.

The simple fact is, as the OP points out, since 1977 over 130 death row inmates have been exonerated. It is better to not kill anyone than to wrongly kill one innocent person.

The death penalty is not a deterrent, and in anything close to its current form never will be. Today's inmate killed by Ohio committed his crime 18 years ago. In order for punishment to be a deterrent there has to be an immediate association with crime and punishment. With 18-year intervals between the crime of murder and execution, execution will never form an immediate association with the crime.

Put them in jail for life.

[marmar]

24. Society does not become better by doing the very thing it purports to hold in contempt.....

..... Execution is state-sanctioned murder, pure and simple.

[Divine Discontent]

25. great point. thank you.

yes, it seems to imply life isn't 'that' valuable, and we're going to show you that by killing this guy for ending someone elses life with a bullet/knife/blanket etc, but we'll kill him 'humanely'.

[Gregorian]

27. Thank you.

I believe our judicial system is, as supposedly modern as it is, residing in the dark ages. As if inflicting pain on top of existing pain will solve anything.

People are dynamic. Yet we treat them as though they are made of wood.

The level of understanding of how the world works, how humans work, by much of the people who reside on this planet, is pathetic at best.

There is beauty. And even in ugliness may it emerge. It does happen. Change, and forgiveness do happen.

[deaniac21]

31. Surely, we could just lobotomize these people and teach them

how to do something useful in pris ion. Like water plants, for instance.

[reggie the dog]

60. lobotomization is morally wrong too because innocents would be

lombotomized. It is already bad enough for an innocent to spend time in jail, but they can be freed. You cannot reverse a lombotomy.

[deaniac21]

104. I hear it makes life very peaceful.........

[SIMPLYB1980]

32. And I say good riddance.

Though not popular around here I am a firm believer that some people deserve to die.

[reggie the dog]

61. how do you deal with innocent people being executed?

It happens due to error. How is that justified? Do they deserve to die?

[SIMPLYB1980]

62. It sucks, but not enough to make me feel sorry for this

piece of shit and waste of space.

[reggie the dog]

67. and the innocent people?

are they peices of shit and wastes of space?

[SIMPLYB1980]

84. No, but show me a case that's questionable,

and I will agree with no DP in that case.

[reggie the dog]

103. In Illiniois the practice of putting plastic bags over peoples

heads until they signed a confession was so prevalant that the death penalty has been suspended.

[goldcanyonaz]

89. Me too. Yes, we are very much in the minority here.

[Withywindle]

33. I don't see where bartenders bear any responsibility for this.

In my experience, what people do under the influence is a reflection of who and what they are normally. For example, my ex drinks too much and I worry about that - but when he's drunk he usually turns into a giggly cuddly puppydog who loves everybody. If the hate and violence isn't in you to begin with, booze won't put it there.

[SOS]

101. The common factor in many of these cases: alcohol

I agree that alcohol doesn't change the basic personality.

But I have met guys similar to this killer. OK when sober, but violent nut jobs when drunk.
As a nation, we must take alcoholism more seriously.
We need more treatment centers, easier access to treatment and insurance parity for addiction.

Imagine how many crimes could have been avoided if people could have gotten sober before going off the rails.

[dugaresa]

34. it isn't a deterrent, it is revenge

it is society's way of making atonement to the victim's family.

it is revenge in its purest form.

the question I have is, are we capable of truly turning off that human emotional need?

i like to think i am a good hearted person, but if someone harmed a hair on my child's head, i would want my revenge. same goes for anyone else i care about. that is the only reason i don't like joining these discussions because i have been fortunate not to be on the victim's or the criminals side of a crime. i have been unscathed by the horror of the kind of violence that leads to a death penalty and to be blunt, I don't know that I could rise above my need to take revenge.

i marvel at the folks who forgive the criminals who committed crimes against them or their family members but i don't know if the majority are capable of doing so. I have to be honest, i couldn't and how do i know this? i am love my family and those i care about too much and i know that when i have been hurt before how strongly i have reacted and therefore i think i am one of those people who isn't blessed to forgive a crime against someone i cared about so deeply.

[Divine Discontent]

39. I know what you're saying.

I can't imagine, nor do I want you or I ever to have to. My point is, a good amount of families have and will always forgive people who have taken the lives of their loved ones. It must be so hard, however, the fact that these people are stuck in a cage most every moment of their lives is pretty damning - it would make you go crazy. And prison is a scary place.

[dugaresa]

42. yeah but in keeping with the revenge idea, it doesn't sit well with most people on the outside

that they are paying taxes to feed, shelter and even provide health care to prisoners.

I don't doubt prison is a scary place and living in a cell isn't any fun, however people resent having to bear the burden for them and that too feeds into the revenge idea.

i actually had a conversation with a friend about this very issue and he is a self-employed businessman and he had a basic resentment that prisoners get health care and meanwhile he struggles to pay employees decently but can't afford to offer health care. as a result, folks like him don't shed many tears when someone gets a lethal injection.

personally i think giving everyone access to health care for instance would make folks in the community a bit more "forgiving", however situations like that play with people's emotions.

it truly is a very complicated issue.

[Divine Discontent]

48. good pts

[MagnaChucka]

66. What most people don't realize about the cost of the death penalty

Is that it actually costs more to put someone to death than to keep them in prison for life. Think about it, this guy spent almost 20 years on death row before his execution was carried out. In that time he received all of the same benefits as anyone else in jail, as well as the mandatory appeals process, the cost of the execution itself and so on. Really no money saved on the DP.

[Lex]

41. you don't have to "forgive"

Society takes on the responsibility of meting out the punishment so the family isn't put in that position. We as a society should be better than pure revenge that leads to killing and most civilized countries are.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

82. It will certainly deter him from committing any more murders.

[flvegan]

88. Yeah, but logic doesn't measure with the drooling masses, lusting for blood.

[TexasObserver]

35. Recommend

[REP]

40. Sometimes, forgiving is not a real option

First, let me state that while I support the death penalty in theory, its practice is too deeply flawed for it to be feasible. This is case is not a good example of that; however, it does not change the fact that there are too many inequities in the justice system, too mant badly run crime labs, too many sloppy investigations, etc etc to continue using the death penalty. Life in prison that actually means that, along with stricter sentences for non-statutory sex crimes and reduced/no time for minor drug possession would go a long way in preventing violent offenders from reoffending.

That said, society does not need to forgive heinous crimes. Individuals may if they wish, but it needn't be granted.

[MineralMan]

44. My opposition to the death penalty

is firm, and will not be changed. The state should not be in the business of killing its citizens. Too many innocent people have already died at the hands of the state in this way. No more!

[Lex]

46. The truth is, the death penalty isn't about the criminals, it's about US.

We know that they are abhorrent killers. What we decide to mete out in response is purely up to us.

[burning rain]

47. I'm inclined toward the position that the death penalty should be abolished.

If you have the death penalty, you're apt to put an innocent to death here and there, elicit more violence by making some executed creep a martyr in the eyes of fanatical followers, and it isn't necessary to protect the public. Neither does it ennoble society or, especially, those who carry out executions. Would you care to have a beer with an executioner? Have one marry your daughter?

At the same time I think many who are executed are real pieces of shit, and talk of forgiving them is sickening. It is very cheap and self-indulgent to pat oneself on the back for being oh so nice and goody-goody as to forgive someone who didn't do a damn thing to you in the first place, but murdered someone else's loved one--a stranger to you. The person whose place it is to offer forgiveness, or not, is dead--murdered--and the living ought not indulge themselves, make themselves feel better, congratulate themselves, for usurping their rightful place.

[Divine Discontent]

50. appreciate your post. thank you.

[reggie the dog]

49. the death penalty is immoral

because so many innocent people get executed. Life in prision with no possiblity of parole is just fine for murderers like this guy, and if we mess up and convict an innocent we can always free them. I live in a country where the death penalty is unconstitutional.

[Hepburn]

52. IMO, life without the possibility of parole is far worse than the DP.

Caged like an animal...

[aikoaiko]

91. And yet almost all the convicted beg for life in prison rather than death

Which, in my mind, is a good reason for the DP.

[Hepburn]

100. I wonder how many say that after years in a cell. n/t

[aikoaiko]

102. Most given they keep appealing hoping to avoid or delay the DP even after 10-15 yrs behind bars

I think you overestimate the unpleasantness of prison compared to death.

[Thickasabrick]

54. K&R Great post nt

[Deja Q]

58. Okay, so he did his time from murdering. How do you convince him not to be a repeat offender?

At what point is it safer to do the ultimate to prevent him from viciously slaughtering others? There are only so many reasons for murder...

[Divine Discontent]

63. some who have murdered do get out, I'm not so sure he would have with what he did to her, but if he

did, he would need to report frequently, showing he's in therapy, alcoholic treatment plans, and other options are out there. Every case is different, so I don't think he would possibly have gotten out of prison anytime soon, or should have for another decade or so, but all of that is moot now.

[MrSlayer]

70. It's a shame it took so long.

Bang the gavel, hang the asshole. Rope is relatively cheap.

[trumad]

73. Nice Jesus pic you got there.

[Divine Discontent]

78. pretty sure

that pic is in reference to a non-Christian band that flippantly uses the term 'lamb of God' as a marketing gimmick to interest guys into that kinda music for shock value purposes. Pantera comes to mind when I think of that kind of music.

[Pool Hall Ace]

92. I thought it was Bill Murray.

[MrSlayer]

96. Thanks.

Lemmy is god after all.

[proteus_lives]

72. I understand your point but I disagree.

Some people deserve to die for their crimes.

I've never understood sympathy for monsters.

[goldcanyonaz]

87. Me either.

It appears that this person was on death row for 18 years, too.

[mitchum]

74. Predatory murderers should be locked up so that they can only prey on the underclass...

(other prisoners)
That's the dirty little secret behind the thinking of so many of the Armchair Gandhis, but they are loath to admit that sentiment.

[Divine Discontent]

79. Armchair Gandhis? okay... nothing like throwing things out there to try and start something

nonetheless. the prisoners should be watched appropriately by the prison guards.

[mitchum]

81. The only thing I threw out there was a...nerve...toucher

NIMBA (Not In My Back Ashram)

[AnOhioan]

90. Yeah Ohio!!!!!! (sarcasm)

[aikoaiko]

93. He admitted his crime so we know we have the correct perpetrator:

I'm glad his has been punished justly.

[goldcanyonaz]

95. Yes, there was not a question of "do we have the right person".

At least the state afforded a better death for him than his victim.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

94. i am fully willing to admit that most people who are put to death are abhorrent

or what they did was abhorrent

i just dont buy a tit for tat sense of morality

if something is wrong, its wrong when i do it to, even if my actions are purely retaliatory

[MadMaddie]

97. I would be fine with

the murderers to work hard labor for the rest of their lives. People want to make sure they the criminals get 3 squares a day, state run health care and heat and air. Prisoners live better than poor and many middle class Americans in 2009.

Most if not all of the hardened criminals did not blink twice about the comfort of their victims. They use excuses such as it was the drugs, booze, mental illness that caused them to murder and destroy lives.

The murderers ALWAYS find God when they are sitting in jail. The 4 police officers whose funeral service was today...yea the shooter found God and thats why Huckabee let him out. They can find God and stay in jail for the rest of their lives as far as I am concerned.

Are there innocents in jails absolutely, is our system broken in many ways yes and it should be fixed.

[RedCappedBandit]

99. The death penalty is wrong

There are a number of reasons, but anybody who needs them to be spelled out for them isn't worth the time anyway.