...and then there's this fucking guy.

[pauldp]

Gates was nominated for the position of Director of Central Intelligence by President George H. W. Bush on May 14, 1991.

"Because of his senior status in the CIA, Gates was close to many figures who played significant roles in the Iran-Contra Affair and was in a position to have known of their activities. In 1984, as deputy director of CIA, Gates advocated that the U.S. initiate a bombing campaign against Nicaragua and that the U.S. do everything in its power short of direct military invasion of the country to remove the Sandinista government."

"The final report of the Independent Counsel for Iran-Contra Scandal , issued on August 4, 1993, said that Gates "was close to many figures who played significant roles in the Iran/contra affair and was in a position to have known of their activities."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gates


.....our Secretary of Defense ladies and gentlemen.

:banghead:

[babylonsister]

1. I like him, and unrecommend. Then is not now. nt

[midnight]

3. Please share how you can like him?

[babylonsister]

5. Please tell me why you don't. I think he wants these wars to end under

Obama, he respects this president, and I don't recall seeing or hearing that under idiot son from Gates.

[Duende azul]

21. Did you like him under bush?

[liberation]

52. Under Bush: Sec. Gates? We have always hated Sec. Gates...

Under Obama: Sec. Gates? We have always loved Sec. Gates...


War is Peace and all that...


Not only excusing but actually enabling Iran-Contra criminals was most definitively the change some of us were hoping for. Gates is now OK because he loves "dear leader"???? WTF just happened?

[Ignis]

57. Bingo.

Evil is only evil when the other side is doing it.

When our side does it, it's brilliant strategy.

[elocs]

77. That is the key to DU thought and philosophy: we are righteous and they are evil.

We are sure of it.

However, they also believe that they are righteous and we are evil and are also equally sure of it.

And neither side, even though they disagree, can try and find a way to understand the other side but just dismisses them as crazy.

[Capn Sunshine]

80. BINGO

but what do you expect? It's the internet. I never thought the most sane forum on DU would be the Lounge, but it toally is.

[elocs]

81. You are absolutely right about the Lounge. I retreat there for some sanity when needed.

Evidently I must not always need sanity. Oh well.

Here's a good YouTube video from Northern Exposure with a great song about going insane:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmnCteBCUi8

Kind of like DU, but more entertaining.

[L0oniX]

74. What ..me worry? WTF ...we're not prosecuting any torturers or war criminals so...

who really gives a fuck anymore? Obama? Nope ...don't think so.

[Sherman A1]

71. Yes,

Much more than the Esteemed Mr. Rumsfeld. I believe that if Gates would have be SecDef, when Powell was SecState, we might not have gone into Iraq. He is like everyone else in this world (we all come with warts & baggage), but from what I have read he tends to be pragmatic and understand that force of arms is not always the best alternative.

[EFerrari]

25. Know your BFEE: Robert Gates did more than keep the doors open at BCCI

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2810465

[Soylent Brice]

59. i love Octafish. in top ten of all DUers IMHO.

[Techn0Girl]

64. Good Lord - what are you saying ?

Here is this guy - a CIA big wig, a Bush appointee times 2 - an Iran Contra badguy... and you support him??

WTF?
Words fail me.
I sear to God that if Obama appointed George Bush himself to be Secretary of the Interior there would be a rousing cheer from brain dead followers who wouldn't know a teabag from Hubert Humphrey.

Get out of your armchair - put down the Doritos - stop taking the Ambien and read - for god's sake just READ.

[midnight]

91. Babylonsister, I was wondering what info. you have read that might explain his position

about how he wants to end this war. I would have to agree with you, because to help end this war is a gift worthy of extending one's admiration......

[Algorem]

88. .

[pauldp]

4. Yes, please tell us what it is you like. nt

[sabrina 1]

16. You like him? Do you like Oliver North and the rest of the Iran/Contra

criminals?

No wonder they keep killing. When a Republican is in office, the right ignores war crimes, and when a Democrat is in office, Democrats ignore war crimes. So on it goes, the killing of innocents around the globe wherever the US 'has interests'.

Our war criminals just go from one administration to the next and the dead in Nicaragua, Iraq, Afghanistan or wherever the US decides to go, are just collateral damage because 'we don't do body counts'.

Well, 'History Will Not Absolve Us' for the crimes of these people no matter how we try to justify their actions ~

http://www.correntewire.com/liar_liar_obamas_secretary_war_crossposted_bar

If this were a just society, rather than looking at another year or two in the president's cabinet, Robert Gates would be well into serving a long stretch for war crimes and lying to Congress. It's really that serious.

.........


Robert Gates has been lying about matters of life, death and empire for a long time. A National Security Administration staffer in the Carter administration, Gates appears to have been involved in the October Surprise, helping delay the release of US hostages by Iran in order to damage the re-election chances of Jimmy Carter in 1980. When Reagan's campaign manager William Casey was tapped to head the CIA, Robert Gates was part of the new team. Casey promoted Gates to head of CIA's analytical division and later to deputy CIA director because of his willingness to embellish and fabricate intelligence saying what policymakers wanted to hear.

It's pretty certain that Robert Gates has lied each and every time he has been sworn in before Congress. His lies have cost the lives of many tens of thousands, and obscured the reasons for their deaths. When Ronald Reagan declared that Nicaragua, a country with the population of Philadelphia (minus the suburbs) and fewer than two functioning elevators constituted a military threat to the US, this was the work of Robert Gates. The US intervention in Central America cost at least 30,000 lives in Nicaragua alone. Gates was also at the center of US provision of arms and intelligence to both Iraq and Iran as they fought a seven year war that killed two million people. He orchestrated intelligence reports that deliberately exaggerated Soviet military expenditures and threat posture to justify Reagan's rant about meeting the menace of the “Evil Empire” and his unheard of increase in US War Department spending. After serving as CIA director under the first president Bush in 1991 where he remained well into the Clinton administration.

Yes, he's a really nice guy. I know morality is a thing of the past these days, but I'll stick to not aiding and abetting and supporting war criminals with so much blood on their hands.

From Robert Parry:

http://baltimorechronicle.com/2008/111308Parry.shtml

When the Soviet Union – the CIA’s principal intelligence target – collapsed without any timely warning to the U.S. government, the CIA analytical division was derided for “missing” this historic moment. But the CIA didn’t as much “miss” the Soviet collapse as it was blinded by Gates and other ideological taskmasters to the reality playing out in plain sight.

Goodman was not alone in identifying Gates as the chief culprit in the politicization of the CIA’s intelligence product. Indeed, Gates’s 1991 confirmation hearing to be George H.W. Bush’s CIA director marked an extraordinary outpouring of career CIA officers going public with inside stories about how Gates had corrupted the intelligence product.

He destroyed whatever objectivity the CIA had maintained and turned it into an arm of the Exectuive Branch, a dangerous policy that made a mockery of our system of checks and balances.

He's a liar, nothing he says can be believed. He believes the US needs a constant enemy and if there is none, he is willing to create one.

If I had known that Obama was going to surround himself with the Reagan/Bush criminals and DLCers like Rahm Emmanuel, there is no way I would have supported him.

Memo to self. Demand to know from the next presidential candidates, who they intend to appoint to positions of power.

And we're supposed to believe he's a 'reformed war-criminal' and that is supposed to make us feel better about him. What utter garbage. He is a career criminal and is likely worse now than he was then, having realized there will never be any consequences for any of his actions.

[inna]

50. excellent post, thank you! nt

[dana_b]

60. thank you for posting this

I was ignorant (and still am but less so) as to all he has done.

[jobycom]

97. Will you marry me?

:applause:

[kentuck]

45. Babylonsister, I am surprised...

that you do not know the complete history of this guy.

[mikelgb]

51. lol

[bertman]

70. I posted this high up on the thread because it's important for the entire discussion.

Everyone is talking about how Mr. Gates is "working for" President Obama when, in fact, it's President Obama who is working for Mr. Gates. Robert Gates is THE LINE OF CONTINUITY in the Military-Industrial-Corporate Complex's progression of imperial expansion. He has had close ties with the strategists and big thinkers of the imperial expansion program for longer than any other person in the administration.

There's a good reason that Gates stayed on after Bush. It was to make sure that the new President didn't stray from the plotted trajectory of our imperial overlords.

To think that ANY American President has power over the Military-Industrial-Corporate Complex is folly. The chain of command was firmly established in the minds of future generations of our leaders on November 22, 1963.

[ima_sinnic]

75. ++1 important information and insights

[sabrina 1]

79. Excellent post. I just realized how long he has been

around. He moves from one administration to the other, from Carter (who it seems he may have betrayed) to Reagan to Bush Sr. to Bush the lesser and now to Obama. Your analysis makes perfect sense.

[DutchLiberal]

96. Like Kennedy wasn't following order from the MIC...

He was the one who expanded US military involvement in Vietnam on a large scale!

[pocoloco]

99. Jesus fucking christ! Where in the fuck did ever get that idea.

I've heard some stupid shit here but this ranks right at the top.

[DutchLiberal]

111. Uhm... That is recorded history.

Under Eisenhower, there were 900 American "advisors" in Vietnam. Under Kennedy, this grew to 16,000 military personell.

Kennedy advisers Maxwell Taylor and Walt Rostow recommended that U.S. troops be sent to South Vietnam disguised as flood relief workers. Kennedy rejected the idea but increased military assistance yet again. In April 1962, John Kenneth Galbraith warned Kennedy of the "danger we shall replace the French as a colonial force in the area and bleed as the French did."<88> By 1963, there were 16,000 American military personnel in South Vietnam, up from Eisenhower's 900 advisors.<89>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#During_John_F._Kennedy.27s_administration.2C_1960.E2.80.931963

[bertman]

102. In '63 Kennedy signed a withdrawal order for American advisors (that's what they were called

in Vietnam during that period). There were 16,000 of them and he had ordered that they begin coming home and be out entirely by '65. He and Bobby had been to Vietnam in the '50's and seen the French getting their asses kicked, so they knew the futility of the dreaded "land war in Asia". Of course, the military was 99% in favor of sending American troop units to fight there, so they were seething at the prospect of Kennedy fucking up their opportunity for a good old-fashioned war. Then there were the war profiteers and of course the CIA--who were the ones running the show in South Vietnam anyway. (Does any of this sound a bit familiar)?

At first, Kennedy had signed the withdrawal order secretly and made no fanfare about it because he didn't want to be seen as soft on communism during the election in '64. But after getting the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty passed and seeing the overwhelmingly supportive response the American people gave him (at that point, they were rightly scared to death of a nuclear war breaking out between the U.S. and Soviet Union), he decided to ratchet the withdrawal up a notch--against the advice of almost every single one of his advisors and general staff, of course.

He was walking a tightrope in lots of ways, so he said some belligerent things, but his actions were geared toward negotiating a peaceful settlement and neutrality agreement for Vietnam, similar to the one he and Kruschev engineered for Laos. After the CIA assassinated President Diem and Diem's brother--against Kennedy's expressed wishes, but after he had reluctantly signed off on a coup if the Diems did not shape up-- JFK decided to go ahead and pull out the advisors and even accelerate the timetable. The Diems, who the CIA had tried to control but could not, were assassinated on November 2nd. JFK was assassinated twenty days later.

Upon assuming the Presidency, LBJ rescinded the withdrawal order and began the buildup.

JFK had refused to send in Marines when the Bay of Pigs went south, then he refused to nuke the Soviets during the Cuban Missile crisis, then he withdrew U.S. nuclear missiles from the Turkish border--right on the Soviet border, and he was working back-channel with Kruschev to begin serious disarmament as another step toward peace between the two lethal giants squared off face-to-face with atom bombs at the ready. Thousands of them. JFK's military advisors were doing their best to get him to launch a first-strike attack on the Soviets, so we could "win" the Cold War. John Kennedy stared the reality of global nuclear holocaust in the face and it turned him into a peacemaker.

Peacemaker Presidents are not useful to the Military-Industrial-Corporate-Complex. Unless, of course, their version of peace is WAR.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shadowknows69]

106. I'm sorry sister, but I think you've gone right off the rails with that statement.

[leftstreet]

2. K&R

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

6. Boy that's some damning evidence how did he avoid prison time. Oh wait.

Proximity doesn't equal guilt.

[babylonsister]

8. I've read about cheerleaders. The 'dark side' is represented' here . nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

12. You think Gates is represents the Dark Side?

[EFerrari]

29. I don't know how you can call people who know history "dark".

Okay, what about more recent events?

McChrystal's Pat Tillman Connection
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090525/zirin2

Suspected war criminal, General McChrystal, to lead U.S. forces in Afghanistan
http://votersforpeace.us/press/index.php?itemid=1576

What in the world are these people doing in leadership positions? i firmly believe that Obama took the helm at a time when our government suffers from more corruption than at any time in its history.

But this is ridiculous.

[pauldp]

10. You are right - but do you really think he was totally clueless

about the Pakistani owned, Saudi billionaire run, criminal enterprise BCCI, that laundered money and traded weapons to our enemy so we could fund the terrorist Contras and help them run cocaine into this country? That's what his peers were doing, and Poppy was definitely involved... and he didn't do time either. Sorry but I seriously doubt that Gates was clueless when all of that was going down. No fucking way. That's why Poppy appointed him.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

14. I have no idea. I just found the guilt by proximity a bit over the top.

Sometimes when dishonest people know that an honest person works around them they will keep them in the dark in regards to unsavory issues. Of course it's also possible he orchestrated the whole thing.

[sabrina 1]

22. He was a hands-on Iran/Contra

war criminal. And if Democrats had not allowed that crew off the hook, Clinton last time, Obama this time, Gates would very likely have been prosecuted. That is if we lived in a country that respects the law.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. Proof would be key.

"The final report of the Independent Counsel for Iran-Contra Scandal , issued on August 4, 1993, said that Gates "was close to many figures who played significant roles in the Iran/contra affair and was in a position to have known of their activities."

[EFerrari]

44. If you're interested enough, there's a lot of material in this file:

The Robert Gates File
The Iran-Contra Scandal, 1991 Confirmation Hearings, and Excerpts from new book Safe for Democracy
National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 208
Posted - November 10, 2006

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB208/index.htm

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

48. Thanks. I hope your brother's situation improves quickly.

[EFerrari]

49. Thanks, Dave.

:)

[truedelphi]

104. Thanks EF. I'll check it out. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. The OP doesn't say he's guilty, only that he's an asshole.

Bomb Nicaragua? Really?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

47. I don't believe the OP said either actually.

[appal_jack]

63. See post #25

Dave,

You really should read the link (an excellent DU post by Octafish) posted by EFerrari in response #25. There are lots of convincing reasons there explaining why Gates is corrupt scum. I hate that the man who received my presidential vote would choose to perpetuate such pernicious anti-democratic imperialism in his own cabinet.

-app

[Octafish]

7. Robert Gates is a Son of the Military Industrial Complex

Decades ago, the guy helped exagerate the Soviet threat in order to accelerate the great Treasury drain, among other nefarious things. Know your BFEE: Robert Gates did more than keep the doors open at BCCI. DUers have been on to their gangster asses for 32 years now: Really Bad Information: the Neocon's 25-year war on Objective Intelligence

[nashville_brook]

9. it's like the Obama administration works for Gates' people, and no the other way around.

it's these cats who remain in power throughout numerous oppositional administrations that make me wonder who really works for whom.

[Octafish]

20. That is EXACTLY what it is.

From the Safari Club to Blackwater's Hitman-in-the-Sky, the real power never leaves.

[dgibby]

85. Shadow Government .n/t

[Duende azul]

26. You nailed it.

[sabrina 1]

28. I'm beginning to think that is how it really works.

It's hard to think otherwise. Obama did say he admired Reagan. I thought that was odd coming from a Democratic candidate. I would have expected him to say FDR or Kennedy maybe. Next time my instincts tell me to watch out when a politician says, I will.

[liberation]

55. I also pointed that out during the campaign, and I got all sorts of hand waving

and tangential justifications as to why that was a non-issue.

I had no idea the cult to personality and the general escapism from reality that it was going to ensue after the election. I am just tired to be told to wait and see, even time after time of being proven correct. "Wait and see" well... we waited and now we are seeing exactly what we said originally, now what?

[rosesaylavee]

84. I think you have taken his Reagan quote out of context ...

this is what President Obama said in 2008 re Reagan:

“I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it.

“I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity, we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing.”

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/011908.html

He didn't say he admired him. He was putting the Reagan Presidency in a historic perspective... to frame how he was hoping his presidency would effect people. He didn't say he thought the path that Reagan put us on was the right one - in fact, I think he addressed that later that he didn't agree with the trickle down crap at all.

[sabrina 1]

94. I know what he said. I remember it well.

Anyone who ignores the WAY Reagan won both elections, the first time by a treasonous undermining of a sitting president, helping to delay the release of US citizens from captivity, and the second time by using dirty politics, could not seriously say that it was the American people who were 'ready for what Reagan had to offer'. For the most part the American people were unaware of the treasonous and criminal behavior of the Reagan administration, their secret wars, corruption and support of people like Saddam Hussein, while at the same time funding the Iranians, AND creating our current 'enemy' du jour, Osama Bin Laden and his gang. The participation in the slaughter in Central America and the contribution to the beginning of the destruction of the middle class and on and on.

If I can google all this information about Reagan's disastrous administration, so can Obama. And I can assure there is no way, knowing what I know, that if anyone asked me what presidents I admire, and it was in response to that question that Obama made that statement, that I would ever dream of mentioning Reagan.

Nor were his explanations any better. Any honest person asked what they thought of the Reagan presidency, other than the willfully blind far right who view Reagan as a God, could not possibly use him as an example in any way, of someone to admire. Especially to say that the American people wanted what he offered, when what he offered was lies and major covering up of what his administration was actually doing. Iow, he FOOLED the American people. Is that something to admire? What Obama should be doing, is telling the American the truth about Reagan, if he mentioned him at all. But to single him out as someone to admire, is just plain disturbing, especially coming from a Democrat.

[rosesaylavee]

110. He did NOT say he admired him...

He was referring to his presidency in historial context.

[dana_b]

65. that is a really interesting thought

and scary too. Most of us could be completely ignorant of how things really operate and of who is actually in charge.

[Myrina]

69. Now we're getting somewhere ...

... and where does Cheney fit into all of this? Was he a Bush 1 crony too?

Interestinger and interestinger .... :(

[babylonsister]

11. So, the fact that he listens to this president, likes him, and does his bidding,

is horrid? Isn't that what a person who grows and learns might do?

I don't really think Gates is setting precedent or doing anything other that the President's bidding, whether you like it or not.

[Octafish]

18. Poppy pardoned Weinberger, freeing Gates and the rest of the Iran Contra traitors from prosecution.

George Herbert Walker Bush also obstructed justice by withholding notebooks and lying to Special Prosecutor Lawrence Walsh. Gates and his indicted and unindicted co-conspirators were never investigated, let alone tried or convicted. That class he represents has helped make America a state in a permanent state of war. They profit from death.



In person, I'm sure Mr. Gates is a swell guy.

[sabrina 1]

19. Yes, it is horrid. That IS his reputation or did you not know that?

He doesn't care about the truth. He fabricates evidence to fit the policies of this government. Read Robert Parry's assessment of this man, who imho, thinking as I tend to do, of the tens of thousands of dead Nicaraguans, this man is a cold-hearted monster, just like the rest of the war criminals who are operating, unpunished in our government today.

And it the duty of citizens of a civilized society to try to stop these criminals from causing any more death and destruction than they already have. Not to do so, makes us complicit and I for one do not want to be complicit in the crimes about to be perpetrated against the people of Afpghanistan, any more than I would have against the poor, unfortuante people of Nicaragua.

The Danger of Robert Gates

http://baltimorechronicle.com/2008/111308Parry.shtml

When Obama said he admired Ronald Reagan, it made a lot of people very uneasy. He tried to explain it away by saying he didn't mean what we thought he meant, but sad to say, it looks like he did. Even then, I never thought a Democrat would do what Bush did, hire Reagan era unprosecuted war-criminals.

[amborin]

31. shocking to read all that

[chill_wind]

17. In which you said, Octafish, we ignore the past

at our future's peril. Truer words never spoken.

[sabrina 1]

89. Everyone should read that thread.

Thank you for linking to it, Octafish. If the media would cover even one tiny percent of what is available on these people, I really believe the American people would finally start doing something about it.

It is truly shocking the extent of the power these people have in our government, none of them elected. More and more I think that it doesn't matter who the president is, it is they who really run the country.

And Gates is there, throughout the whole sordid history of the past 30 years. Reagan and his gang should have been prosecuted for treason for undermining Carter's attempts to free the hostages. And it looks like, with the help of Gates. For that alone, he should have been prosecuted.

Anyhow, there really is no excuse anymore, even with the complicit media keeping all this from the American people, not to be informed about all of this.

Robert Parry is one brave journalist also. There are so few ~

[alp227]

13. Uh-oh, Obama still allows Iran-Contra crooks to have jobs on his cabinet?

When millions of law-abiding Americans can't find jobs?

It was bad enough when Lil' Bush re-employed Elliott Abrams and a whole bunch of other I-C figures to his cabinet to support his Iraq agenda. (others included Otto Reich, John Negroponte, and John Poindexter). What is it with Bush and Iran-contra? I mean, the elder Bush vehemently denied knowing anything about unethical government conduct in that 1988 Dan Rather interview and then went on to pardon Oliver North, etc.

[chill_wind]

15. Gates doesn't believe in Timelines or Exit Strategies. He has said so

as recently as September.

Sunday 27 September 2009

Defense Secretary Robert Gates said on Sunday it would be a "strategic mistake" for the U.S. to put a timeline or exit strategy on its presence in Afghanistan -- a position that appears to put him at direct odds with the president.

Appearing on CNN's "State of the Union," Gates insisted that far from being a quagmire, Afghanistan was a country that could be pacified and stabilized if the right policy was adopted. One thing the United States should not do, he added, was set deadlines or outline an approach by which military forces would eventually leave the country.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/27/afghanistan-exit-robert-gates

So yeah, it'll be tough prying him away from the PermaWar thing.

[Duende azul]

24. He took the wind out of the sails of the happy "There is a timeline" crowd.

That meme is now on the endangered talkingpoints list.
Not necessarily a bad thing.
Now they have to resort to beliefs and hopes that somehow this thing will turn out fine.

The timeline is only brought up by those who didn't pay attention.
Others still have to figure out what to make of a Sec of Defense, who kills the most important "hope"element in his CiC's war-justification-speech.

[sabrina 1]

82. It reminds me of Rumsfeld telling the country that the War in Iraq

would take 'weeks, maybe months' when asked how long we would be there. Rightwingers insisted that he was telling the truth, because the Gulf War only took a few weeks. But smarter people knew Rumsfeld was lying and now it's going on seven years and it looks like we'll be there indefinitely.

These people lie constantly to the American people because they have so little respect for them. But I admit to thinking that Obama would appoint a whole new cabinet, free of these warmongers from the past. Instead, it's the same old war mongers calling the shots. And who knows what Obama thinks, or even if a president has any say whatsoever in these wars that create so much wealth for so many people.

[rucky]

36. If I said that at my old job, I'd have been fired.

[EFerrari]

23. Career Bush fixer. What is he doing in an Obama government?

[Blue-Jay]

27. I still don't quite know what to think about that fucking guy.

I'd prefer a different fucking guy, but I'm not sure which fucking guy I'd prefer. Maybe some fucking guy that I've never heard of, or maybe some other fucking guy that I sort-of fucking know.

I'm still fucking confused about the appointment about the current fucking guy.

FUCK!

[Usrename]

33. Me fucking too.

I find it difficult to believe that he has left the dark side. At first I thought it was a good idea to keep him in Obama's cabinet where someone should be able to keep an eye on him. But I'm not so sure about that.

FUCK!

[Usrename]

32. I'm still wondering about his connection to the loose nukes.

The loose nukes in Louisiana. They got there by some method that was outside the military protocols and outside the chain of command. I honestly believe it was the PNAC attempt to launch a nuclear first strike against Iran. Early in Gates' career he joined the CIA and was assigned to the Strategic Air Command. Supposedly he was involved with setting up the security and an fail-safe procedures for handling the nuclear arsenal. He seems like just the kind of guy that would be necessary to have on the inside for moving nukes around without utilizing the chain of command. I dunno what his involvement was in that episode, but it was in close in time to his being appointed Secretary of Defense.

[Duende azul]

37. That may be the reason why they couldn't refuse the "offer" to keep him around.

And the longer I think about it, the less need I feel to use the sarcasm tag.

You brought up a scary point.

[Goldstein1984]

34. Same cronies, year after year

No wonder nothing ever changes, except to get worse.

Gates is just another member of the militaristic, imperialistic, shock doctrine and trickledown bullshit crowd that has parasitized the American people since 1980.

More of the same.

[mogster]

35. The power game in Washington

Gates is one player who need to be kept on 'our' side. I remember thinking when he was allowed to stay on, that it was somehow fitting that a republican should still be responsible for the wars started by republicans. That will bind up the criticism from same, and make it easier to navigate for the Dems.

Seriously, the picture isn't as easy as we think it is. There is no such thing as total control, where you can make a clean break with the past. There are so many powerful players with so many powerful connections, that the idea of 'clean' government can't be a reality yet however much we wish for it.
Fuck Yoo, we say, and that may be right and he should definitely be held responsible. But in a touch and go game of politics on the level we're talking about here, a real life scenario must also contain a semi-hostile press and the power of the astroturfing repub networks, and the power of the official secret networks which may only be semi-friendly. You gotta have in mind that there would be a close and careful judgement for which fight to be picked as time goes by, one by one.

Each democratic, sane and common sense issue framed by the Dems must be fought thru the official bodies of the US with clenched teeth, then fought thru the press with clenched teeth, then fought thru the astroturf guerillas with clenched teeth, as if it were a big mistake at the outset, an abomination and a horror to the eye. Even though it never is, like a decent health care provided for all Americans. You've seen it, I don't have to explain. Public health care is Hitler, it's on that level we start out.

Now, there are many, many war veterans on this place. You don't expect the Veterans for Peace to turn into the Veterans for War just because a Democrat president is in the office. I think the war protests are a good thing, not a bad thing. The soldiers have earned the right to speak, it's what you would expect. Many people have lost their lives un-necessary in the Bush wars, there is a huge backlog of BAD that inflicts upon how we think, about any politician. I lost most of my faith in society structures during the last eight years, because it was just too wild, you know? Then Obama was elected, to my surprise, and it proved that democracy still works in your country. No doubt, the election of Barack Obama was a huge victory for democracy, not only in the US, but world wide. He has asked us to 'look forward', which is a clear indication of where we stand. This was the recipe prescribed to the Israelis and the Palestinians in the 90's: how do we get on with progress towards peace? If you were there, and participated in the resistance, you are surely touched by it. Some may have personal damage. I know I am hurt. I know I've spent many years of appeasement in the private area, trying to catch my balance as the ill winds that blows the world comes closer. Yeah, so what? I can take it, and the only reason I won't accept it, is that we are, seemingly, back to normal. We're apparently back in everyday life, like it used to be. The real people are in control, so if they are, why won't my life be as it used to be? Why shouldn't my life be as it used to be? I won, for chrissake. Every good will project I've worked on for the last six years has been a winner as seen from the viewpoint of the people I've been trying to help, there's no doubt about it. But I don't win personally, because I don't claim the big victory, because it isn't about ME. And because I see that the struggle isn't over, that there's more to it than meets the eye. It has been a long learning process for a guy that never used to be interested in politics, and if you see it from a perspective of self interest, I would curse the day I started out.

I have followed for the last days president Obama's visit to my country and the incredible apparatus that surrounds him. It's like totally crazy, seen from a Norwegian viewpoint. It's interesting to think about because I supported the hubbub because it was to protect Obama. When he left, I felt like I did when Al Gore left in 2007: Thank goodness nothing bad happened to destroy the peace and quiet, that nobody tried to blow up the ill winds right in the middle of peace itself. That MY country didn't become the scene for violence and destruction, a likely scenario that will surround the most powerful person in the world, history has proven that. I live in the area touched by this enormous security detail, and half expected a Secret Service agent to knock on my door and tell me to STFU during his visit due to my political activity. If they had, I'd have welcomed them, you know. Because we're on the same side, and we for sure won't have any random events to ruin the establishment diplomatic motions involved in an award of this kind. Anything that would have made the award less sweet for Obama and Michelle would not have been to my advantage. We never win from events like that, not even if something had happened to Bush while he was at the top of his power. It's a no-go.
At the same time I started to think about how Obama felt inside all this wrapping. You know, he's just a man, and the Obama family is just a family, human beings. The power comes from the apparatus and the role he is posessing, and it's huge, huge. Obama is also a great man, but he's just a man. If he's gonna be a great president, we must build him into being great. Maybe it isn't possible anymore to have great presidents. Maybe that isn't a totally bad thing, I don't know. But he has been a symbol for what we achieved thru the long cold years, and I think the times and circumstances will prove him to be greater than he appears just now. Because it isn't over, you know. The rw machinery goes on and on, grinding out every negative detail they can find and blowing it up to hysterical proportions. They've got all the media power and has a vast array of methods to make us _not_ think about Obama as a great president, there's no doubt about it. They're not only present in your country, but all over the world and have been so for many years. Bush undid a lot of things, and what was most damaging was to politicize capitalism and speckle the media with enough people to match their political views.

It's amazing to see only Obama critics on the eve when he's awarded the NPP for just being elected by YOU. Because that was what it was all about, you know. You and us. The big mix. Don't forget that the awarding country is involved in the same war as you are, and so is most of Europe. We're just as sick of the war as you are. We want change too. We never liked Bush, but involuntarily Bush opened up your country to us because we needed to know what was going on. We know public health care isn't Hitler, because we kicked Hitler out of our countries, with YOUR help. That was a war too, fought before the doctrinal wars of the cold war period made war into a political means. We need to see that even though we refer to them as the Great Generation, they didn't feel that great. It must have been total shit to be a soldier in WW2 because your life prospects was slim. And therein lies their greatness: they were willing to sacrifice their lives for freedom because they felt the heat of the moment. It was seen as a necessity and the sense of a common goal was strong enough to keep it up until fascism was beaten. Occupation ensued, and the country we occupied is today grateful for that. It was not perfect, but then democracy never is. What saved us back then was unity for a common goal. Today the picture is much more speckled, difficult to understand, and easy to exploit, and eight years of Bush wars have taken a toll.

OK, that's understandable, but we don't need to shit all over Obama just because he's trying to solve the situation. He's the rubber man, pulled in all directions to fit our needs. Everybody need a little bit of him, and everybody is so unhappy when he can't get more than this little bit because Bush had nothing to offer, so there is a deficit inside us. Combined with a deep distrust in government and the establishment in general, this is a potent mix which only serves the agenda of the rw. Because they want chaos, that's clear. They benefit from chaos because their minds are chaotic and fractioned, just as Bush' mind was chaotic and fractioned. A presidency means nothing to the people that has been taking advantage of that chaos for the last eight years (and longer), they don't want democracy and so don't want the democratic institutions to function properly. They want to pick the pockets of democracy, that's what they really want. A presidency is their wallet, a senator is money, not a person of character. They don't want persons of character, they don't want incorruptible politicians, because they don't fit into the creative destruction scenario which leads to chaos, which leads to opportunity, which leads to more easy money. War is one handy scenario in that respect, so they want wars to provide that opportunity. Obama wants peace, he'd never want a war just to keep business opportunities open. The Taliban didn't like the NPP award and used the same arguments as the rw now is warming up to. Hawks turning peace doves, how likely is that? They for sure didn't like the US president to have a stronger democratic base (which hopefully the NPP award will provide over time), but wants him to be as stuck as possible between the US hawks and their own AK47's. Stuck between extreme Christianity and extreme Islam, stuck between the right and left, stuck between media and media consumers - it's an eternal walk to Canossa.

I think, with all respect for the war veterans and the families who have lost their loved ones, that this man holds himself well in the face of all this. Much of the criticism is to be expected, and I don't think he had any illusions when taking the office. He has made progress believable again, and he and his family has made hope possible for many people that had lost it, not only in the US but world wide. The US image is soaring among people at home and abroad, so there! This credit is due to you as well, as Obama is a democratic president, a bottom up president and a people's president.

Yeah, this came out a bit longer than intended, but I needed to went.

[JoeyT]

39. Huh.

"He's the rubber man, pulled in all directions to fit our needs. Everybody need a little bit of him, and everybody is so unhappy when he can't get more than this little bit because Bush had nothing to offer, so there is a deficit inside us."
Actually he's not doing much more than Bush did, because he's probably not trying. This isn't the Fox news crowd you're talking to here. These are people that fought for him to get elected. They've just noticed what direction he happens to come down on on pretty much every single decision he's made.

"This credit is due to you as well, as Obama is a democratic president, a bottom up president and a people's president."
Haha! Oh. You weren't kidding? Um, have you seen his economic policies and his incessant defense of torturers? Wars aren't the only thing that make a president, they do other important stuff too. All of which is being factored in by people that are disappointed in him.

[TwilightGardener]

46. Thank you for your perspective, I agree with much of it.

[tom_paine]

38. To me, Gates merely confirm the increasingly Third-World Nature of our government

The theory:

1) It used to be that a President, no matter what his party, became Commander-in-Chief of the Military and pretty much controlled the military, at least at the macro-level, as it ought to be

2) Third-World Nations, which Americcca is "catching up" to in so many ways, are not governed as simply, as normal relationships are colored by faction and divided loyalties.

I am not saying all was perfect before, but what we have today requires something like an American Kremlinology study to even begin to understand what is going on.

Which brings us to Gates. The military has long been primarily Republican in nature at the ground level, but always respecting above all, the US Constitution.

I am guessing, since the nonviolent Bush Purges of 2002-2005, that like so much else, the military has passed some tipping points and is now and always will be de facto controlled by the Bushies, no matter who is in office.

Thus, Obama's appointment of Gates (who will almost certainly remain for the entirety of Obama's turn for that is the only thing that allows him to direct the military at all, I think) makes perfect sense.

Rather than being frustrated with Gates, certainly a natural reaction, we should look upon this "aberration" as being one of those rare moments when we peasants get to view the truth of our Inverted Totalitarian Government clearly.

The Bush faction controls the military in this country, not Obama, and no flimsy piece of paper (as the Bushies view the Constitution) is going to stop them except a counter-purge to get rid of Bush-Loyal officers and replace them with officers, Republicans and Democrats alike, once again loyal to America, if enough could even be found these days.

What chance of that happening? None. At least until Gates is gone and he's not going ANYWHERE as Obama has zero interest in DeBushification or restoration of Constitutional norms.

[tomp]

41. and that is my top complaint against obama...

....that he is not undoing the bush/cheney travesties. he is not prosecuting bush/cheney. he is one of them (as one might say of virtually anyone in govt). the true democrat, in that his disguise as being for the common person is so good.

[pauldp]

105. Very well said.

If I remember correctly Gates staying on was couched as "enabling a smooth transition". I didn't believe it at the time and still don't especially in light of the escalation in Afghanistan. Yep, not an aberration at all unfortunately.

Thanks for the insight.

[TwilightGardener]

40. I'm all right with Gates. He might have gotten his hands dirty in the past, but

he's managing SecDef pretty well.

[liberation]

53. Well, sure Mussolini was a war mongering psychotic totalitarian a**hole...

... but the trains in Italy never were as punctual as under his watch.

Can't possibly imagine what the big "fuss" was all about...

[Doctor_J]

43. Knowlege is power

a life-long spook knows where every skeleton is. Probably the safest job in DC

[MissDeeds]

54. What dumb-ass made this guy Sec of Defense?

Oh. Never mind.

[bertman]

83. Thanks, MissDeeds. That was a good laugh.

:rofl:

[TheKentuckian]

56. I'm not a fan but he doesn't have the hardcore Sith Lord vibe

like some others that have held down the spot or would be looked as credible.

[bertman]

86. That's what makes him the perfect choice for the job.

[RoccoR5955]

58. Another member of Bushco, Inc.

He belongs in jail with the rest of them.

[Techn0Girl]

61. Meet the New Boss...

Same as the old boss.

[democrank]

73. I repeat.....

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[katty]

62. Gates and Poppy Bush very cozy

[BennyD]

66. Why are you bringing this old story up now??? n/t

[Cleita]

67. I hope one of these days that we get General Wesley Clark. n/t

[swilton]

68. The Great Guru Extrordinaire

Of Politicizing Intelligence

[PreacherCasey]

72. Current or Former Director of CIA = I don't trust you one bit. NT.

[sam sarrha]

76. SOME LINKS...>>>

http://web311.pavilion.net/JFKcaseyW.htm
"SNIP...The following day Casey appeared before the House Select Committee on Intelligence (HSCI). Alan Fiers, a colleague at the CIA who also attended the session, remarked: He stumbled and fumbled. at times it seemed he couldn't talk. He had to be carried. He'd start to answer and wave to one of us to take over when his words or his facts failed him."

Casey was due to appear before the HSCI on 16th December. The day before, CIA physician, Dr. Arvel Tharp went to visit Casey in his office. According to Tharp, while he was being examined, Casey suffered a seizure. He was taken to Georgetown University Hospital and was not able to appear before the HSCI. Tharp told Casey he had a brain tumor and that he would have to endure an operation. Casey was not keen and asked if he could have radio therapy instead. However, Tharp was insistent that he needed surgery.

Casey entered the operating room on 18th December. The tumor was removed but during the operation, brain cells were damaged and Casey lost his ability to speak. As his biographer, Joseph E. Persico, points out (The Lives and Secrets of William J. Casey): "one school of rumors ran, the CIA or the NSC or the White House had arranged to have a piece of the brain removed from the man who knew the secrets". ...SNIP" ..wasnt that Convenient.

..sounds somewhat like Reagan during his testimony, i feel Reagan was given a Frontal Lobotomy.. you just don't get Alzheimer's overnight



http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ciadrugs/witness_list.html

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/08/us/poindexter-is-found-guilty-of-all-5-criminal-charges-for-iran-contra-cover-up.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair

http://www.drugwar.com/cv13.shtm

Related articles from newspapers, magazines, and more
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Iran-contra_affair.aspx


June 30, 2008—As historians ponder George W. Bush’s disastrous presidency, they may wonder how Republicans perfected a propaganda system that could fool tens of millions of Americans, intimidate Democrats, and transform the vaunted Washington press corps from watchdogs to lapdogs.

http://baltimorechronicle.com/2008/063008Parry.shtml
To understand this extraordinary development, historians might want to look back at the 1980s and examine the Iran-Contra scandal’s “lost chapter,” a narrative describing how Ronald Reagan’s administration brought CIA tactics to bear domestically to reshape the way Americans perceived the world.

[DireStrike]

78. Obama kept a poppy-bush appointed CIA bighead

That says everything.

[gimama]

87. I KNOW!!! `but You made me smile, thanks. nt

[lib2DaBone]

90. What I liked is when Smirk Boy brought in Kissinger to head the 911 investigation...

lol... Even the Reich Wing media couldn't swallow THAT pill.....


Gates should be gone along with that little shape-shifting reptilian slime-ball Rahm Emanuel.

Obama has made some terrible decisions as to the people in his cabinet.

[Subdivisions]

92. Funny how DU used to hate this guy unanimously. Now...

not so much.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=search_advanced&hits_per_page=25&search_type=advanced&page=14

[EFerrari]

93. To be fair, there are so many of "these fucking guys"

it's almost a fulltime job just to keep up with how corrupt they are and how long they've been at it.

[DutchLiberal]

95. That doesn't matter at all. He's now working for Obama, so he is okay, right?

That's what people who are madly in love with Obama keep saying. Larry Summers and Timothy Geitner, the ones who made millions of dollars on Wall Streets while crashing banks and businesses left and right? Who cares? They work for Obama now, and he will keep them honest. Same with Robert Gates. Of course all this, from the people who have always said the US president is nothing but a puppet for big business interests. But somehow, magically, Obama is different and much better. Even though he continues Bush policy after Bush policy.

People who "like" Obama just don't care about these facts. They simply ignore them or downplay them. My mother does it all the time. "Obama is a good man". Why? Well, she likes him. He's intelligent. He has given speeches in which he said he would bring change! And we all know how much the words of a politician mean! These people who only believe in the image/charisma of a politician (and still pretend they know a lot about politics), they make me sick. That's how Reagan became president and all this shit started...

[CrunchMaster]

108. We could get so much done in this country if the majority would just take the blinders off

"These people who only believe in the image/charisma of a politician (and still pretend they know a lot about politics), they make me sick. That's how Reagan became president and all this shit started..."

Amen to that. I want to support Obama. But I still think he's needs to start doing what people elected him to do. Deal with Wall Street and the War Party in D.C. and shut off the free flow of dollars to these pigs. Time to take the blinders off.

[boppers]

98. Eagle scout, worked his way up from the bottom...

Decades of experience in defense and intelligence... Cutting way back on spending money on weapons systems, and instead focusing on special forces and intelligence-driven action, much like McChrystal..

What's not to like?

:evilgrin:

[Blue_Tires]

101. kick

[Indenturedebtor]

103. Without accountability actions are meaningless

therefore Sec Gates is the greatest thing since bottled beer!

Thank goodness Obama had the insight to see things the same way!

Go Obama!

:cry:

[RufusTFirefly]

107. Why Gates? I'm with Bill Hicks on this

"I have this feeling that whoever's elected president, no matter what promises you make on the campaign trail - blah, blah, blah - when you win, you go into this smoky room with the twelve industrialist, capitalist scumfucks that got you in there, and this little screen comes down... and it's a shot of the Kennedy assassination from an angle you've never seen before, which looks suspiciously off the grassy knoll.... And then the screen comes up, the lights come on, and they say to the new president, 'Any questions?'
"Just what my agenda is."

[EFerrari]

109. I used to think that was oh so over the top.