How can a test be racially biased.

[pennylane100]

This question is not meant as flame bait, I feel sorry for the firefighter who did not get promoted and if I were to guess why, I would think that maybe someone got hold of the answers and only gave them to certain people.

However, in the conversation, I have heard it mentioned that the test may have been racially biased.
what does that mean. We all live in the same world and if the test related to a persons knowledge of his or her job how can it be biased. Just asking, have no feelings one way or the other.

[NOLALady]

1. Google

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200311/mathews

[Kitty Herder]

2. This is how I understand it.

If a bunch of privileged white dudes make a test, it's going to test knowledge of white dude culture and the typical environment in which privileged white dudes are raised (suburbs?). We are all unintentionally blind to our own cultural biases and those biases show up in test questions.

An example I read about recently involved a question for children in which they were shown pictures of a rainy day, a sunny day, and a windy day and asked on which day they would need an umbrella. More people of color live in the southern climes where umbrellas are used to shade people from the sun than in the northern climes, so the children of color were more likely to say they would need it on a sunny day. That was an incorrect answer, according the creators of the test, even though it's perfectly valid.

Let's say there are three tests, created by three different groups of people. On the first test, people of color score better on average than whites. On the second test, white people outscore people of color, on average. On the third test, there is no difference in how people of different races score. Which test would you say is most free of bias? If a test can be created that eliminates the racial difference in scores, isn't that a clear indication of bias in the other tests?

[napi21]

3. I think you're right. I heard that;s what happened in this test.

circumstances that were different from some FF's past experiences caused them to give different answers than their with counterparts who also relied on their past experience. I honestly don't know what the cure for this is. All people make judgements on their personal experiences!

[paulsby]

5. rubbish. totally ignorant of this case

complete crap.

this same test has been used in numerous jurisdictions and was vetted by the city before it was adopted.

the test was in no way, shape, or form , racist.

if you have evidence to prove otherwise than bring it.

otherwise, try reading up on the issue, because the city was unable to provide evidence (which is part of the reason they lost) that the test questions/answers had racial bias. if they HAD, they would have prevailed.

complete crap.

[Cid_B]

17. That doesn't make any god damn sense...

If you want to claim "bias" in that example then its for people from sunny climates.

[Kitty Herder]

20. It is a bias against people from sunny climates.

However, it was used to claim a racial difference.

[mitchum]

22. Damn, somehow I have missed the continuation of the antebellum tradition...

of everyone walking around here with parasols. No wonder I can't find sunscreen. Land Sakes!
That is a ridiculous argument.

[Kitty Herder]

24. Don't take the example too seriously.

It is the concept it illustrates that matters. I don't even remember where I read that particular example. I'm sure there are far better examples.

It was intended to illustrate that there are cultural and environmental differences that can lead to different test scores that are instead attributed to skin color.

[Cid_B]

28. Fair 'nuff...

but I wish someone would give an example of questions that are supposed to have a racial bias.

[Kitty Herder]

27. Come to think of it, the last three times I've used an umbrella, it has been to keep the sun off.

Beach umbrellas stuck in the sand.

[mitchum]

47. So have I, but I still don't see how this is a racially biased question...

If it is "anything biased" that would make it a class biased question. Considering the whole connection with beach vacations/leisure being a consumption option for a more privileged class. And THAT negates the assertion that it is a racially biased question even more.

[mitchum]

23. Yes, it seems that children not of color from those sunny climes...

would also respond in a similar fashion.
There is the possibility that some test questions may have a purported racial bias, but not for that particulat one. I have never seen anyone carrying a parasol outside of Gone With The Wind or something.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. Because priviledged white dudes know so much about firefighting?

[Kitty Herder]

34. I was talking about racially biased tests in general.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

37. Just picking on you a little. No harm intended, my apologies. I got your point.

It is a valid one generally. Questions about caviar, Rolls Royces and fashion would tend to favor certain groups.

[Kitty Herder]

40. It's alright. No offense taken.

I guess I'm feeling a bit uptight today. Sorry about that.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. I should have used a smiley face or something.

:hug:

[Kitty Herder]

43. Aww..

:hug:

[BoneDaddy]

32. Then we will slide into the morass of the absurd

I could easily make the argument that every individual is unique, has their own perspective and that there could not ever be a test that will ever be totally "fair" to everyone.

[Kitty Herder]

38. Oh my.

I'm not talking about individual differences in test performances, put differences between different populations. Large disparities between the scores of different populations indicate that a test is flawed.

If a test can be constructed in which whites and people of color perform equally well, that indicates that a test that on which those populations scored differently is flawed. If one group of people were truly less knowledgeable or less intelligent than another group of people, changing tests wouldn't change that.

[Thickasabrick]

58. That's how I understand it too. nt

[ZombieHorde]

4. Without seeing the actual test questions,

we can not really judge the test. We can only judge a test we imagine in our minds.

[paulsby]

6. these posters are WOEFULLY ignorant

the city had opportunity to provide evidence the test was racist, after they suspended the results. they were unable to FIND ANY EVIDENCE IT WAS RACIST. READ THE CASE. it's on the frigging supreme court site, mirrored all over the place, and endlessly discussed at scotusblog etc.

NOBODY has provided any evidence the test was racist. it's complete crap.

for fuck's sake, the same test was used in several cities, and it was vetted by the city before being adopted. the ONLY reason it was considered "racist" was because they didn't like the SCORE RESULTS ex post facto.

these people making these ridiculous accusations have CLEARLY not read the supreme court briefings, or anything else about what was on the actual test.

[Kurt Remarque]

7. all of this has to be viewed in the context of the test's

predictive value with respect to actual performance. i assume that there are also measures of function in "real life" situations

[paulsby]

56. that is a completely different issue

i've taken several fire tests (used to be a firefighter). there is no perfect test, and god knows ANY written test is only so much applicable to real life.

gr00vy

that says nothing about whether the test is racist.

[kristopher]

9. The city didn't claim specific bias in the test, IIRC

The argument was that the total evaluation for promotion was based on an inappropriate emphasis on testing.

These numbers are made up but represent the sense of the argument - candidate for the promotion were judged in perhaps three areas - on the job performance reports from supervisors, a test of job skills related to the specific position, and one other area I can't be precise on, perhaps a test of general knowledge on firefighting.

The dispute was over the split of emphasis. Perhaps it was 25%/25%/50% or some mix like that and they felt there was a more appropriate mix such as perhaps 33/33/34.

That is the gist as I recall. What burned them wasn't the change, it was making the change post facto.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. Actually when the city saw the results the assumed they would be sued and panicked

The concept is disproportionate impact. If the results are not proportionate to the those who took the test, the claim will be made that it was somehow slanted. To resolve that agencies go to great lengths to avoid that. Hartford hired an outside company which specializes in defendable non-biased tests. Hartford has had trouble with presumptive bias complaints in the past and cut and ran rather than evaluate the testing or stand by the results. Piss poor leadership.

[paulsby]

59. that much is true

the reason the city threw out the results (or at least their claimed reason) was fear of lawsuit.

and considering the environment, it's understandable.

WRONG. but understandable.

disparate impact =/= unfair test

by this metric, bank robbery laws are sexist.

after all, they disproportionately target MEN!!!!

[paulsby]

57. actually, the city had the burden

AFTER they threw out the test results to offer evidence that the test was in fact racist. they were unable to do so. NOBODY has been able to do so.

this is ENDLESSLY discussed at scotusblog and is mentioned in the actual supreme court decision.

[voc]

10. I assume you would feel the same way about the SAT

tests currently administered nationwide?

[ZombieHorde]

11. Which SAT questions do you think are racist? nt

[voc]

13. The SAT

Has been racist from the very beginning for AA's.
This link is a starting point. Both Harvard and Stanford have maintained this position for a while now.

http://www.dailycal.org/article/103859/scrap_sat_tests_maintain_excellence

Google SAT Test- The origin and why they were initially created.

[ZombieHorde]

16. Does that link have any concrete examples of biased questions. nt

[fasttense]

14. There was one SAT question that always amazed me.

It was a long paragraph describing how a girl felt about losing a tennis game. You were then suppose to answer 5 questions about the paragraph. Nowhere did they explain the system of scoring and they kept referring to "love" and other weird things about tennis.

In order to answer the questions correctly, you had to know something about tennis. I hated tennis. I was big into horseback riding but of course they never did any paragraphs on that sport.

But really tennis? I know very few black people, poor people or rural people into tennis. In fact in our high school there were NO tennis courts. Of course my reading comprehension was lower due to that stupid game.

[ZombieHorde]

15. That does sound like a weird question, but I am not so sure this question is racist.

I know a lot of white people and none of them play tennis.

[Cid_B]

25. First...

It's pretty damn racist of you to assume that black people don't play tennis or couldn't comprehend like anyone else.

Second, it sounds like reading comprehension. If the paragraph talks about widgets you don't have to have a degree in widget production. You just have to know how to read.

Third...



edit: run-on repaired

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

31. So it is biased against anyone who isn't a tennis fan or who hasn't been in love?

[pipi_k]

45. More people not into tennis...

I was a white, urban, middle class child who didn't give two shits about tennis. Had someone asked me a question in which tennis was featured, I'd have failed.

[paulsby]

60. why assume that?

i would make no assumption either way about the SAT

(btw, SAT *tests* is redundant but i digress...)

i am not making an ASSUMPTION about the hartford test.

i am making a statement based oN EVIDENCE.

read the frigging supreme court case. read the frigging briefs.

nobody could provide evidence the test was biased.

the only "evidence" of bias was the disparate results between the test takers.

[CreekDog]

8. if a test has results that are predictive by race, then it's a bad reflection on the test

not the takers' race.

[AngryAmish]

42. How so?

SATs mean is a different points for different races. Does that mean it is a bad test. Same with all the IQ tests out there.

[CreekDog]

44. The law prohibits precisely what I explained to you

if you don't like it, change the law.

and there are myriad problems with the SAT as a sole predictor or basis of a student's aptitude. it's safe to say that people who know tests like the SAT don't claim that they are fair to all races and backgrounds as you are doing.

[anonymous171]

51. The SAT is biased in favor of asians and against whites. It should be abolished. nt

[paulsby]

61. that's rubbish

and also remember, this is ONE application of the test in one city.

the reality is that given sufficient "n", any truly fair test would necessarily have disparate impact in some cities, just based on the law of averages and deviation from the norm.
iow, assume a test is given in 1000 cities. some cities are going to show disparate results. it's almost a certainty.

just like if you roll a die 10000 times, you will see some strings of "3's". it doesn't make the die biased.

it might be the case in one city, that ff's whose last name starts with "P" disproportionately scored better than those whose last name started with "M".

that doesn't prove BIAS.

nobody said the test results were a bad reflection on african american firefighters.

clearly, the test results were a bad reflection on THESE PARTICULAR african american firefighters, at least compared to those who passed the test.

hth

[fasttense]

12. Here are a few examples of biased questions

1. The National Hockey League Flames played in what city before moving to Calgary?

2. What length of firefighter boots are also ideal for bass fishing?

3. Identify the specific breed of cow owned by Mrs. O’Leary that started the Great Chicago Fire.

4. In Seinfeld, what firefighter’s job did Kramer perform in the race to save Leaping Larry’s Appliance Store?

5. What brands of white bread and mayo are favored by four out of five firehouse kitchens?

http://satiricalpolitical.com/2009/07/01/who-says-the-new-haven-firefighters-test-wasnt-culturally-biased/

[FLAprogressive]

19. LOL!!!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. I'm a white fire captain and I can only answer one of those.

[Bonn1997]

18. Well a test situation can impair certain groups' performance and underestimate their true

abilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat

[AngryAmish]

21. THere is the disparate impact effect

Blacks and hispanics don't do as well on standardize tests as whites and asians. But does the standardized test actually required to be qualified for the job? If not it disparately impacts blacks and Hispanics and is just another way to discriminate.

[Cid_B]

26. So what is your solution?

No more testing for positions? A handicap for certain ethnicities?

[bettyellen]

62. performance based testing, critical decision making, ability to plan delegate execute missions

[snagglepuss]

29. Is the difference do to poor reading skills? If so that is a serious liability.

However if reading is absolutely not required for a job then a standardized test seems pointless.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

36. These were for promotions to Officer positions.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. The city did a horrible job legally defending their position.

[blondeatlast]

39. Self-delete. Happy Holidays! nt

[slampoet]

46. I can come up with a racially/religiously biased test right here!!

1. How many gwumpke does it take to feed your boosha until St. Stanislav's Day if today is a week after the Pentecost?

2. Explain the life cycle of growing rice by hand and all the steps from planting until harvest.

3. How many times do you jump the broom if it is your second marriage?

4. How many quinceaneras do boys have in their lifetimes?

5. Explain the difference between Black and Red Caviar and which occasions they are served at.

6. What kind of fish goes with linguisa?

7. What is the Icing rule in hockey?

8. Name the four Germans who had a profound effect on House Music and Hip-hop. What were these Germans known as collectively?

9. If there are Five Forks on your dinner setting and it is summer on the Cape what can you expect to be eating?

10. Explain the differences between Scotch, Bourbon, and Whiskey.

[mitchum]

48. Nicely done

very nicely done :)

[slampoet]

49. My S.O. and myself wrote the test but i only got a 3 and a half score.

This is a really unfair quiz.

[SteppingRazor]

50. Yeah, the last question's even a trick question.

All scotches and bourbons are whiskeys, but not all whiskeys are scotch or bourbon.


On edit: Actually, if you're a real stickler for grammar, scotch is not whiskey. It's whisky.

[slampoet]

63. Yeah i couldn't answer that one without Watching a few episodes of "Three Sheets"

One of the best shows on TV IMHO

[lukasahero]

52. "We all live in the same world " No, we really don't.

We live on the same planet but we really don't live in the same world. The experiences of whites and people of color influence their interpretation and perception of various questions.

Additionally, education levels and, more importantly, the quality of education provided to the two groups varies substantially.

[pennylane100]

54. My children always played with the friends of our friends

growing up. They went to the same schools, lived in the same type of neighborhoods, spent many many sleepovers in each others homes(sometimes half the summer), so I would say that their life experiences were similar. The friends were black and my children were white. How one one family do better than the other on tests. The answer is that they would not.

That is why on my original post, I felt that there must have been some cheating going on, for all of one group to fail and all of the other group to pass. If I were their lawyer, I would stop looking at bias testing and start looking at the similarity of answers by those who passed vs. those who did not.

[lukasahero]

55. But these guys weren't friends

living in the same neighborhoods and going to the same schools. They had different life experiences that could easily be seen on the tests.