Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Embarrassing, but I have rather pedantic questions about the Mideast Conflict

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
UncleTomsEvilBrother Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:41 AM
Original message
Embarrassing, but I have rather pedantic questions about the Mideast Conflict
There are things I just don't understand about the conflict in the region of the Middle East. Please humour me by answering:

1. Without a stable govt, how do the terrorists/insurgents fund their weapons?

2. Without a stable govt, how do the terrorists/insurgents continue to get their weapons?

3. What is the difference between the Taliban and Al Quaeda?

4. Is the US/NATO showing some kind of restraint when it comes to busting up terrorist camps? It seems that it would be pretty easy to detect.

Thanks for your time and consideration, DU
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. OK, I'll give it a shot.
1. The Taliban is funded via poppy fields and the world of drug users. Al Quaeda gets funding through rich families (a lot of Saudi money) that truly believe the 'west' is the source of all misery.

2. There are thousands of 'weapons dealers', most from the USA, around the world that illegally sell weapons.

3. The Taliban is a Sunni group that actually ruled Afghanistan from 1996 until our invasion. Al Quaeda is without borders and promotes terror against the 'west'.

4. Have you seen the western side of Afghanistan/easter edge of Pakistan? I have no doubt that the 'terrorist' camps could remain undetected for half a century.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UncleTomsEvilBrother Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I see...I see.
Thanks. Forgive my laziness.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. On your #1
"that truly believe the 'west' is the source of all misery. "

Do those rich Saudi folks post here on DU? Seems like it at times...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I believe they would straight forwardly offer us moolah to sing their praises
Bribes right out in the open?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. No, the Taliban is funded by the drug war..
End the drug war and there will be no illicit profits to be made from poppies.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. Some quick, off-the-cuff answers.
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 11:53 AM by SteppingRazor
1. In Afghanistan, which hardly has a stable gov't, terrorists get funding through the heroin trade. Also, see FARC in Colombia and its relationship to the cocaine trade. Additionally, there's always sympathizers worldwide who will donate to the cause -- al Qaeda had the backing of rich Saudis, and the IRA relied on foreign donations throughout the later years of its campaign in Northern Ireland.

2. Smuggling. It's that easy. For reference, see the myriad tunnels along the Egyptian/Gaza Strip border.

3. The Taliban is an Afghan political entity that enforced fundamentalist Islam and ruled most of that country from 1996-2001. Al Qaeda is a loose-knit umbrella group covering terrorist organizations in myriad countries that shares a common political philosophy with the Taliban.

4. Yes and no. Check out this story from NPR today, in which soldiers had to sit and watch as an insurgent bombing team simply walked away:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121330893

At the same time, there are situations like the Kunduz strike:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1946644,00.html

So, restraint varies depending on the situation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UncleTomsEvilBrother Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I appreciate....
....the responses. I remember listening to that craziness on NPR.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'll give a slightly different set of answers.
1. You don't need a stable government, just a stable enough society. There are all sorts of informal ways to transfer money. In some areas the insurgents (I'll use that term) are the de facto government and charge tax; they charge tolls and tariffs in some places. There are numerous donors, and probably more Muslims than would admit it (or even know) have their required charity, their zakat, funneled to such groups either as cash or materiel. Moreover, with Pakistan just across the border from Afghanistan, there is a government, fairly robust transportation system, and a bona fide banking system; this is also true for groups in numerous other countries.

2. Arms merchants, sometimes working explicitly as arms merchants and sometimes just people working for a state's military or defense industry that can split off some munitions and weapons for a sufficient bribe.

As for transportation, in some cases it's smuggling. A lot of the Chinese weapons may come from Iran (if they're smuggled and not simple provided) or from Uzbekistan. In the case of the Af-Pak border, "smuggling" is a strange term since the border's sometimes poorly defined and often there are no checkpoints. You load up your truck and drive. Sure, there may be a law, but a law that's never enforced is no law at all.

Then there's the simple fact that Pashtun is a weaponized society. Peshawar has been a weapons-manufacturing center for over a century. The Soviets dumped in weapons; the ISI dumped in weapons, with and without the US; the ISI continued to dump in weapons and now the US is dumping in more.

3. AQ is a variety of things and it's best to try to keep them separate. There's AQ per se, with Zawahri and bin Ladin as the #2 and #1 honchos. But there's a wider kind of AQ composed of allied groups, whether in N. Africa or in, presumably and still, Iraq. Then there's even a third tier, individuals and local groups that are poorly organized but which are definitely fellow-travellers, supporters, enablers, and sometimes even act in concert with or in place of AQ. So it's both an organization, a set of organizations, and a movement. (I think of it in terms of a university's "resource center"--the center is there and trains/organizes/agitates all by itself, but it helps and cooperates with other groups to the extent they share a common agenda, and it encourages individuals.)

The Taliban are also a variety of things. There's Mullah Omar and the group that was in Afghanistan. They're sort of a single organization and Deobandi. Then there are allied groups, whether Hekmatyar's group in Afghanistan or the Mehsuds in Pakistan. When you get to this kind of group you're talking religion but also tribalism and it gets a bit fuzzy in distinguishing between where religion and tribal boundaries separate. Then there are other groups and militias called Taliban, such as Tehrik-e Taliban in Pakistan which is a sort of umbrella of smaller Taliban groups, and more clearly held together (most of the time) by religion on the one hand and anti-outsider/anti-government solidarity. The fourth "ring" of the Taliban is occupied by the same sort of people in the 3rd tier of AQ: They're sympathizers, enablers, weekend warriors (literally, in many cases). If you keep in mind that "Talib" is just "student," by default "religious student," it helps a little.

AQ is specifically a world-wide kind of thing, working cross-border in order to protect the ummah, the "Muslim tribe" and to defeat the infidels and restore Muslim dignity, from Indonesia through Central Asia to the Caucasus, Middle East, N. Africa, SE Europe, and Spain. Plus anywhere else that people are interfering in Muslim domination in what were Muslims used to dominate. At least that's one way of interpreting them. The Taliban is typically more local, but have been noted as spreading their reach ever so slightly, at least rhetorically: They want to have a good Muslim society and state for themselves, and threaten those that get in their way. Of course, it's unclear to what extent that's just a first step, and AQ and the Taliban can cooperate nicely enough on specific goals just as many of the various Taliban groups support each other and cooperate when confronted with a common threat.

4. Probably not, at least not seriously in Pakistan. Such camps aren't always easy to detect. First, Afghanistan and the NWFP/FATA in Pakistan are rugged terrain. Second, it's fairly traditional in a lot of the areas for people to live in compounds. You build a house and put up a big wall surrounding a bunch of land, other houses for family members, the well, etc., etc. if at all affordable. Why? Because then your womenfolk can go outside the house without the burqa/niqab/whatever--if there's a wall surrounding them they're safe and all the men they run across are near kin. That can be 4-5 or more families--so when you hear a compound has been hit and a lot of people killed in addition to some "insurgents", that's probably why.

Second, while mosques tend to start out small, the imam frequently builds a house next to it--and both require a compound. Well, the mosque develops, quite easily, a madrassah, so you have a complex of buildings with a lot of people. If the wealthy patron of the mosque is in the area, his house is likely to be a few feet away from the mosque--and the imam's house, the madrassah and their compound. A madrassah can easily become a training compound--what school doesn't have PE?

Distinguishing between large compounds and small "insurgent" training compounds can be difficult. Then there's the entire matter of local militias, which are common--not all of them are Taliban or AQ. Some are just there, the local protection that a village deems necessary. It makes it harder than you'd think. It also means that often the distinction between "civilian" and "insurgent" isn't the uniform (neither has one) or weapon (both have them) but intent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC