I am deeply disturbed that Obama used a Nazi comparison at his peace prize speech.

[howard112211]

"I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: Evil does exist in the world. A non-violent movement could not have halted Hitler's armies. Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force may sometimes be necessary is not a call to cynicism -- it is a recognition of history; the imperfections of man and the limits of reason."

This strikes me as bizarre and wrong on so many levels. As far as I understand, Nazi comparisons are bad taste at its fullest. Especially from the mouth of a politician. Obama must surely know this. Yet he chooses to sink so low, and that at such an occasion.

[Lerkfish]

1. I think you're correct: you're deeply disturbed.

:)

[UTUSN]

113. Bwah-ha-HAH!1 n/t

[emulatorloo]

2. thanks for your "concern", howard1!!1!11!

[SoxFan]

3. Nice post, Hi...oh, the hell with it

[Sebastian Doyle]

4. It is a ridiculous comparison indeed

Hitler's Army actually existed.

[BeHereNow]

18. CANT. BE. BOTHERED. WITH. FACTS.

Now move along and prepare for choir rehearsal.
Tonight's selection is:
"Don't Point Out the Truth or YOU Are Not A Patriot!"

Ready, set, SING!
LOUDLY!

BHN

[MineralMan]

41. I really have to question your orthography and punctuation, there,

BHN. It's a little odd, you must agree. You also appear to have omitted a very important apostrophe.

Cant is a word, but it doesn't really fit into your admittedly odd title. It's meaning bears no relation to what you are attempting so haltingly to say.

[BeHereNow]

44. Your concern is noted.

For the last time.
BHN:hi:

Guess if you're coming or going from my world now!

[MineralMan]

53. Oh, I'm ignored. I shall go, now, and pout for a time.

[sharp_stick]

5. You'r concern is duly noted

thank you for caring enough that you would use your first name and a shitload of numbers to make sure it wasn't taken.

[sharp_stick]

6. What you mean

you don't know about the secret Aryan Kenyan alliance to take over the Christian church from good ol' boys? Shit you really are out of the loop.

[MineralMan]

7. You may wish to visit your local library and do some reading

about WWII and what led up to it. You seem to not be aware of what happened during that conflict.

What President Obama said is exactly true. It took the combined efforts of several countries to end Hitler's quest for world domination. It was not a pleasant period and so many people died in the battle that it makes later conflicts seem wimpy in comparison.

This was not a "Nazi reference." It was the truth. There is no way that any non-violent movement could have dealt with Hitler. Trust me; it was tried, and failed.

Go read something. I bid you adieu.

[howard112211]

9. Yeah, but he was comparing Al Qaeda to Hitler.

Al Qaeda is no where near Hitler.

[stray cat]

16. You need to read it more carefully - you are jumping to your own point and not his

He says evil exists and can not be stopped by peaceful means. He thinks Hitler would not have been stopped by peaceful protests and he also thinks Al queda is probably not going to respond to sit ins either. Obama does think the actions of 9-11 was evil - I guess you either agree with what happened on 9-11 or think they were poor misguided soles who planned it and carried it out and if we listened to them politely they would not kill people.

[howard112211]

26. Oh, so now I agree with 9-11?

Because I think comparing Al Quaeda to Hitler in order to justify a war is stupid??

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. No, he was saying that there is evil in the world

Which is true. Both AQ and the Nazis are evil... just that their power to reach is different.

He was also talking of a principle called JUST WAR. While you read on WW II, read anything by Nieburh, who informed this speech, as well as the Just War Doctrine that goes back, in modern form, to the sixteenth century.

[Bonn1997]

60. "Both AQ and the Nazis are evil" I have one question for you

Does the US ever do anything evil?

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Yes, where exactly do you want me to start? What year?

Understanding where the speech comes from and what intellectual theory informs it, does not mean I believe in American Exceptionalism.

So exactly where do you want me to start?

The Indian Wars? Perhaps the Gun Boat Policy? Perchance you'd like to start in 1848? Or slavery? How about more recent events like oh Central America?

Or perhaps go down to oh Guatemala in 1953, or Iran about the same year? Chile perhaps? Argentina? What about Brazil?

The list is long and is fully functional of this little thing people do not get.. An Empire will do what an Empire needs to do... and this Empire came to be fully formed in 1945...

Understanding a speech does not mean one is blind to other aspects of history... I guess one has to.

And are you telling me that there is no evil in the world? And are you familiar wiht Reinhold Nieburh? Martin Luther King and the Just War Doctrine?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

73. One question for you, are the United States as evil as AQ and the Nazis?

[Bonn1997]

109. No, it's simply a difference in degree of "evil" if we're going to use that word. I believe in

not throwing stones when your house is made of glass. Given the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed in this war our country started, I don't believe we should be lecturing the Europeans about evil--a bit more humility would have been appropriate IMO.

[Toots]

110. Was the genocide of the American Indian less evil than the genocide of the Jews?

:shrug: Hitler also accomplished some good things. There are shades of grey. weigh the good and the evil and see how the scales tip. I am Glad I live in the US of A.

[MisterP]

99. the US often dredges up Hitler for every war:

Korea was justified as stopping "totalitarianism on the march" or whatever; Reagan and Pat Buchanan cited Lend-Lease to justify Iran-Contra, and DubDub gassed on about Neville Chamberlain to not "appease dictators"

[anigbrowl]

23. it is a comparison of qualities, not quantities.

Al Qaeda is a less powerful and populous organization than the Nazi party under Hitler was. It is no less dogmatic and intolerant.

[MineralMan]

29. No. He did not do that at all. Perhaps I've overestimated your

abilities. Perhaps you should just watch the History Channel. That will be less challenging for you than reading actual books.

[howard112211]

32. He used the words Hitler and Al Qaeda within five seconds of each other.

To me that is creating an association. He was not as overt as the "we must attack Iran because they are Hitler" crowd, but pretty close.

[MineralMan]

42. My dear Howard.

There is a Latin expression, post hoc ergo propter hoc, which is a very common flaw in logic, and one you have fallen prey to. I suggest a Google search on the term, followed by a careful reading of any of the first pages that appear.

Simply because two things occur in close proximity does not mean that they depend upon each other. English is such a fine language. It is a pity so few are capable of comprehending it. It truly is.

[DailyGrind51]

105. So, I compare my ex-mother-in-law to the Anti-Christ, big f'ing deal!

Auntie-Christ, maybe?

[cliffordu]

8. Well.......

I wouldn't wanted to be painted with that brush either.

Methinks thou dost protest too much....

[berni_mccoy]

10. You concern is duly noted.

[stray cat]

11. He was making a historical point - do you think peaceful sit ins would have stopped Hitler?

or maybe protesting with Peace now signs?

[howard112211]

17. Comparing the enemy to Hitler is just a cheap tactic.

"We gotta fight them because they are like Hitler" sounds like something a right-winger would say.

To compare Al Qaeda to Hitler is a shallow way to justify the unjustifiable. And it plays down the gruesomeness of the third reich.

[emulatorloo]

49. "We gotta fight them because they are like Hitler" Now you are just making stuff up

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. SHow me exactly in the speech where he said this...

I'll be waiting, because he did not. Apparently we lack some readying comprehension.

[kayakjohnny]

12. Howard,

the duck!

:hide:

[apocalypsehow]

13. Slow night in Pumaville, eh?

:eyes:

[tabatha]

14. There is nothing wrong with using in a reality-based sentence.

History cannot be brushed aside.
WWII was the won by the greatest generation.

[Oregone]

50. Using the term "Evil" rules out a "reality-based sentence"

What is this world? A fuckn He-Man cartoon episode?

[paulsby]

69. evil exists in reality

obama knows it,i know it.

apparently, you don't

[Oregone]

75. Prove it exists....that burden rests upon you

And Ill prove the flying spaghetti monster exists while you are at it.

[paulsby]

77. i can't prove that love exists either

might as well throw away all that poetry and shit

i'm not saying the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. i don't know, and neither do you.

i know evil exists, and so does obama.

[Oregone]

78. "i know evil exists"

No. You BELIEVE it exists. You have FAITH (belief in that which cannot be proven). And here is an example of policy being made upon a belief, which is no basis for sound policy.


Unfortunately, despite your belief, evil acts are just human acts. I know it helps to know you are part of the human race, which is all so good and only bad when some supernatural force of evil guides our hand. But its not true. You are cut from the same blood as murderers, racists, and war mongers. We are all human, even the "evil" ones.

[paulsby]

80. i also believe the external world exists

and other sentient beings besides myself.

but actually, i can't PROVE those to ultimate satisfaction either. not in a deductively valid argument. and neither can you.

but i operate under the belief/assumption/faith that there are other people besides myself (or other brains in a vat or other consciousnesses or whatever) , and i operate under the same belief about evil, because my senses, my intuition, my experience, and my rationality tell me to do so.

do as you wish

[Oregone]

82. Well you are free to believe whatever cookoo shit you want

But this cookoo belief is being used to sell a war that is killing innocent people and draining your national treasury. So while you might think you are so superior to those who are guided by evil acts, maybe you needed just a little shot of "evil" yourself to sign off on such utter tragedy to the human race with a clear conscious

[paulsby]

83. do you believe in an external world besides your own experience?

if so, you believe in something you can't prove. you operate every day based on that belief.

so spare me the college philosophy 101 babble and get real.

[Oregone]

84. I believe in nothing

And that includes wars that cost billions and kill humans, meant to snuff out supernatural magical forces existing in people's hearts

[paulsby]

86. so, you're a nihilist

lovely

also, believing in evil does NOT mean necessarily belieiving in any supernatural aspect to it.

and of course we know that people don't feel in their (biological hearts) but it doesn't mean the phrase "he has a good heart" is meaningless.

the world is super enough, with quarks and other nifty stuff.

not to mention the presence of evil, something extant throughout history but denied by people like you with blinders on

[Oregone]

88. Im just a human

One that is repulsed by the notion that you can militaristically bomb an idea into nothingness, or even a rogue international criminal group that believes in an idea. And using "evil" to justify it, eh, Id rather watch He-Man episodes.

To each their own. Look out for witches on Halloween.

[paulsby]

91. those are two different things

one can either support or reject the afghanistan war/war escalation

believing in evil is neither sufficient nor necessary in order to support or reject the former.

[Oregone]

93. The argument today from Obama

1) Evil Exists

2) Peaceful means will not stop evil

3) Nazi Germany was evil and destroyed with the military

4) Al Queda is evil

Hence, the militaristic war in Afghanistan will stop the evil of Al Queda (like the war in Germany stopped the Nazis)

There are bountiful holes in that logical argument, starting with premise 1, but carrying on strong.

[paulsby]

94. that's great but still tangential

whether or not one believes in evil is tangential to whether or not one believes in what obama is doing vis a vis afghanistan.

obama uses the putative existence of evil as an element of his justification for action in afghanistan

gr00vy

it does not therefore follow that if one accepts the presence of evil (at all, or in afghanistan) that one also necessarily supports his position

it also does not follow that if one does NOT believe in evil, one does not support his stance.

there is a matrix of four possible positions. need i recite them for you?

[Oregone]

96. No, Ill give you that. It is tangential

I'm just in a reactionary mode, I guess, from the asinine argument from a supposed intellectual. But until I see any rational argument for even the existence of evil, or even a plausible definition, I'm cant so much as entertain the notion (or the tangential argument made today). To go so far as use it as a rationale for war, well, maybe you could understand why I'm a bit hot-headed today.

[paulsby]

97. but i see that as typical

there is this push, among many intellectuals (or wannabes) to discard such concepts as "evil" as antiquated, non-descriptive, etc.

i simply don't buy it.

nothing i have learned in any scientific field discounts the presence of evil, imo.

the concept of evil is certainly associated with religious thought, but it certainly isn't a requirement of believing in evil, that one believes in any superpower etc.

imo, understanding evil (to whatever extent one can understand it) is useful in understanding the human condition.

my understanding of it comes partly from what i have read, etc. but also what i have experienced firsthand.

but i understand how you could be pissed off at obama, especially considering the whole afghanistan thang.

[Oregone]

98. "nothing i have learned in any scientific field discounts the presence of ..."

Just about anything thing you can dream up in your head.


But, if you will, can you even define what "evil" is?

[paulsby]

101. it's not simply anything i can dream up in my head

it's a concept that has been omnipresent in literature, psychology, religion, etc. in literally hundreds of cultures and throughout history.

my scientific inquiries and understanding discounts the presence of all sorts of stuff. ESP for instance.

but not evil.

defining what evil is , is like defining what love is. difficult. doesn't make it any less real. could i describe the color red to you, if you had never seen it, or didn't believe in it?

much smarter men than i have spent thousands of words trying to do what you are asking me to do . i'll (cheaply) defer to them :)

[Oregone]

104. If you can't even describe something, nor define it, much less prove it exists...

It may have no place in public discourse.

[paulsby]

106. i think love

patriotism, honor, morality, etc. all have a place in public discourse.

none are easy to define.

you take most people, and ask them if they know what evil means and they will tell you yes.

obama and i are in that camp.

[onenote]

121. well at least we know that you don't think that anything bush did was evil

that's comforting...

not

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Serious question... do you honestly believe the following were not evil?

Holocaust (big banana and all)

The Armenian Holocaust.

The Balkans... Yes there was genocide...

How about the Guerra Sucia in both Argentina and Chile?

Perhaps the Pol Pot?

Rwanda?

The current mess in central Africa?

Now if you really want to go back in time,

The Indian wars... Canada the US, does not matter.

The Crusades...

In other words you are telling me that there is no evil in the world?

There is... it is how you and I deal with it. And by the way, George Bus and Mr. Chenney also fall in that category of evil... and many people decided to turn a blind eye to it.

Now you may disagree that AQ is evil... (they are) or their potential reach (no quibbles I don't think) or the fact that yes, they are a challenge... or the fact that the us should be leading the effort... or the nature of the effort. But to say that there is no evil is just plain nuts. And people who have done a lot of thinking about it. and in a few cases saw it face to face... Hannah Arendt, Reinhold Nieburh, did a lot of thinking about this. And they concluded that yes there is evil and it is quite banal, hardly recognized and easy to ignore.

[Oregone]

76. Those human acts sound "human"

Humans are horrible, pitiful creatures in their worse, and quite beautiful at their best. Fascinating, they are.

Call it what you wish, but it is what you are.

[Fire1]

124. "the greatest generation?" We all say that. Especially the

Boomers.

[Odin2005]

15. Wow, mentioning HISTORY is bad?

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. Not just "bad," but "bad taste"

OP is a PUMA moron.

[howard112211]

22. No. But contorting it by claiming that the wars today are anywhere as just as WWII.

[MineralMan]

31. Perhaps your reading skills are even smaller than I thought.

Forget the History Channel. Go directly to Sesame Street. I hear they teach the alphabet there.

[stray cat]

20. I do agree with your deeply disturbed state - you may need help

[BeHereNow]

24. Welcome to DU Howard. Sorry for the rudeness by some here.

Stick around, we're not all assholes.

BHN:hi: :hi: :hi:

[howard112211]

28. I'll try.

But thanks :hi:

[BeHereNow]

30. I've got your back.

Just called it out in GD.

BHN:hug:

[MineralMan]

35. Indeed. I see you are waving. I find that amusing.

Some of us at DU may well fit your expression, though, eh?

[BeHereNow]

38. Yes, waving to WELCOME a newcomer.

You might want to try it sometime.

BHN

[MineralMan]

40. I like to wave. Usually, though, I wave goodbye.

I leave the welcoming committee chores to others, generally. It's so sad to welcome someone, only to see them disappear without notice.

[BeHereNow]

43. Thanks for the inspiration-

You just gave me an excellent idea!

BHN

[MineralMan]

52. I'm always pleased to offer ideas.

[Imajika]

25. I thought that part was great actually...

I was so proud listening to Obama give that speech. Seriously, after 8 years of Bush's blathering and incoherence....

[goldcanyonaz]

27. I thought it was great! He's really proving to be a wonderful president.

[MineralMan]

36. Thank you for stepping up!

[HughMoran]

33. I like when newbies have the wherewithal to hide their profile and post inflammatory crap

:popcorn:

[howard112211]

34. And why is this inflammatory?

[MineralMan]

39. Advil™ will probably take care of the inflammatory process.

If not, more drastic measures may be required.

[emulatorloo]

46. LOL n/t

[MineralMan]

37. It's always entertaining, yes? And then, there's always the

obligatory yoohoo from a real DUer pour encourager les autres.

[Hekate]

108. He's really trying to pick a fight. How will we know when he gets pizza if his profile is hidden?

After an extended bout of trollery I really love clicking on the profile and finding the tombstone. :evilgrin:

Hekate

[gimama]

45. Wow.Thanks for sharing Your opinion, many of us agree

& there are PLENTY of threads that share Your views on Pres. Obama,& many of us are annoyed, aggravated & upset about MANY aspects of his speech AND policies, here on DU..
I saw the phrase here, "dogmatic and intolerant", & I think that precisely describes those attacking YOU, because You are 'new' & don't love Pres.Obama unconditionally.
Stay strong, stay involved, stay true to YOUR instincts..& welcome to DU, it CAN be a warm & Wonder-FULL Community.Now I'll go put on my asbestos snuggie:)

[HughMoran]

48. Yeah, we can never have enough "never do right"

people.

[Oregone]

47. Asinine comparison. Maybe if he mentioned the Aryan/Neo-Nazi movement as a parallel to Al Queda

You cannot even stop that movement by imprisoning everyone involved, much less occupying some backwoods piece of land.

I'm sorry, but Hitler had a country, a people, a conventional army, etc. Ya know, shit you can actually drop bombs on.

Oh yeah, and Evil does not exist. Sorry. Humans are just assholes

[leftstreet]

79. +1

[proteus_lives]

90. So love doesn't exist?

And "good"?

[Oregone]

100. A chemical reaction that humans appear to biologically desire exists

So why ask why? Just do it. It feels good....

And no, "good", as any tangible concept, does not exist. Can you even describe it? There are acts that promote environmental conditions that the majority of humans perceive as pleasurable, but "good"...naaa. And filters...guilt, religion, philosophy, they all influences how humans perceive such environmental conditions,

[proteus_lives]

103. Wow, a bad Vulcan impression.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

51. Yeah, I know

It's disturbing that unfortunately sometimes war is necessary. Hitler's attempt to take over Europe and the Holocaust have always been thorns in a pacifist's world view of how things should be.

[Canuckistanian]

54. Welcome to DU. An auspicious start.

Many unrecs, a few agreements and a support post.

Bravo! You'll either be an asset or a pizza destination in no time.

I eagerly await the verdict.

:popcorn:

[Brickbat]

55. Welcome to DU! I found Obama's statement odd as well, and strangely fatalistic.

[Smarmie Doofus]

56. Hmmm... Here's the part that I don't get:

>>>>Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their arms>>>>

Why is *this* necessarily so?

[Bonn1997]

59. That's a good question

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

57. I'm more upset by the gender exclusive language. What's up with that?

[Oregone]

85. LOL. Yes, women can hate too!

:) Of all things in this speech to get pissed about....

[Turbineguy]

58. As one of my Professors used to say

after he used a pipe wrench to beat the shit out of a guy: "You gotta know how to communicate!"

[omega minimo]

61. How far do you understand?

"As far as I understand, Nazi comparisons are bad taste at its fullest."

What are you objecting to? Something someone told you to be offended by? Any mention of Hitler? What exactly is Obama's gaffe here, according to you?

"This strikes me as bizarre and wrong on so many levels."

Please explain.

[Raine]

62. WELCOME to DU!! nt

[NYC_SKP]

63. I thought it was a perfectly appropriate comparison to make. Welcome to DU.

Please forgive some of the members and their unkind replies.

:hi:

[provis99]

64. I guess anyone who opposed Obama's war is a Nazi appeaser.

that's what I got out of the statement.

[BeHereNow]

67. Yes! There is that insinuation, isn't there?

Very good observation.

BHN

[emilyg]

66. Welcome to DU.

[saltpoint]

68. Before posting, you ought to have run your interpretation by a few people who

have longer views into History, as they would likely have told you that your take on it is haywire.

Haywire, bordering on subversive.

[Umbral]

72. Disturbing? Sure, but when you're accepting a prize for peace while conducting two wars...

...wars of aggression no less.... Seriously, could the situation be any more surreal? Obama's trying to defend the indefensible, it's not surprising he would stoop to hyperbole.

[Th1onein]

74. Welcome to DU, howard 112211.

I am deeply disappointed in Obama, too. I'll vote for him again in 2012, though.

[janx]

81. I've had a bad day. You are not helping that.

I work hard. Please exit.

[JVS]

87. Someone should have jumped up and shouted GODWIN!

;-)

[leftstreet]

92. ...

:spray:

[ddeclue]

89. OMG.. are you kidding?

I really miss the old days before Windows dumbed computers down to the point that any idiot could use one...

:eyes:

[Skittles]

95. what the fuck is wrong with you?

ever heard of something called CONTEXT? This context is appropriate. Get a life.

[DailyGrind51]

102. Oh, you'll get over it!

[Hekate]

107. Obama always chooses his words very carefully, and I agree with him. It's not "bad taste"...

... to acknowledge that there is such a thing as evil in the world, and that nothing would have stopped Hitler short of the massed armies of Europe and America.

For their part, Al Qaeda -- a sophisticated operation itself -- sent members here to perform a horrific act of terrorism. I distinctly remember that part. In addition they would be only too happy to complete the work that Hitler started and wipe the Jewish state of Israel off the map. Literally --destroy, kill, exterminate.

The only point of disagreement that I have with Obama is that inasmuch as terrorism is not a country but a strategy, I am not sure that armies can defeat it. But even here Obama seems to have a firm grasp of that reality -- which GW Bush did not. Obama recognizes that there are other tools to use in addition to military might.

So howard112211, I appreciate your concern, but I think you need to reconsider.

Hekate

[Octafish]

111. NAZI comparisons are most apt, helping explain how the USA has gotten to the state it's in.

Obama didn't bring this up, but he should have:

Know your BFEE: Nazis couldn’t win WWII, so they backed Bushes.

BTW: Welcome to DU, howard112211.

[niceypoo]

112. I think some people are hypersensitive because of idiotic teabagger signs

It is as if WWII can never be mentioned again. It's stupid to ignore history or sweep it under the rug.

[Hekate]

114. Yes. Lack of knowledge... doomed to repeat... and all that. nt

[seeinfweggos]

115. running low on anti-obama themes?

[11 Bravo]

116. Perhaps medication is in order? In any case, I wish you a speedy recovery.

[treestar]

118. Do you think the President should negotiate with al Qaeda?

Or claiming that no one tried hard enough to negotiate with Hitler? Are we supposed to forget Nazi Germany ever occurred? Just because Bushco made the comparison dishonestly does not mean no one can ever do so again.

[Vickers]

119. Of course you are. There now....feel better?

Welcome to DU! Enjoy your stay!

[laughingliberal]

120. The name which may not be spoken. I do believe mentioning Hitler as a historic reference is not

exactly the same as a "Nazi comparison." I'm not in favor of our escalation but this appears to be nit-picking and reaching for things to criticize.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DefenseLawyer]

123. So did he insult Nazis or did he insult al Qaeda?

Either way, I'm glad you are looking out for them. I trust if our President goes and says something negative about smallpox you can call him out on that too.