Yes, We Can't?

[NanceGreggs]

When you stop listening to others, they stop listening to you.
When you stop speaking up, you stop being heard.
When you walk away, you’re irrelevant to the discussion.

You wonder how it was that you were ever on the same side in the first place.
You never liked him/her anyway – and you just remembered that.
You imagine what it would be like to be on the same side again.
You dream that you can be
You’re sure that you won’t be
And how you see it is how it ultimately plays out – violins or brass
A wedding march, a requiem mass
Take your places
Strike up the band

You can choose to ignore
Or merely to bore
Hide thread
Go to bed
In disgust – vow you’re gone
TS’d or out like a Drama Queen
Same dif
GBCW

We can throw our fists in the air
Throw our hands up in despair
Throw the baby out with the bathwater
Throw in the towel
Kick it to the curb
Good riddance to bad rubbish

How can everybody else be so wrong
When I know that I’m so right?

We can take a step forward
And move ahead
We can take a step backward
And learn from past mistakes
We can do both
Like walkin’ and chewin’ gum
There was a time
We knew how to do them simultaneously
Without breakin’ a sweat

We can protest
We can march
We can sign a petition
Rely on repetition
Or be bold
Take hold
Say something new – or pretend it’s LBN
When it’s really Op/Ed, at best

We can dare to speak to/for the people en masse
We can timidly, but decidedly, go about changing one heart/one mind
We can say, with determination, Yes, we can!
Or we can state, with resignation, Come to think of it – no, we can’t

We can divide ourselves into discussion groups
Insistent that WE know what’s best
What’s most important
What’s a priority – and what isn’t
Because WE know it all

We can obfuscate
Eliminate
Quote stats
Twist the facts
Italize, bold
Do as we’re told
Feign intelligence
Fake indifference
Decry, disappoint
Point fingers
Lay blame
Flame

We can talk to each other
And listen
Or not

But if we don’t learn to row this boat in the same direction, all hands on oars, we’re all going down.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Exactly right, my dear Nance!

Well done, as usual...

Maybe that last sentence should read:

But if we don’t learn to row this boat in the same direction, all hands on oars, we’re all going to drown.

K&R

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Divine Discontent]

7. ha! nice touch. yes, it's Ab-Fab! Nance 3-run homer in the bottom of the 9th wins it for DU!

[PJPhreak]

2. Bravo!

As a noob here I find that there is too much bickering amongst the folk here and I fear this infighting is just what the other side is hoping will go on.

They use the "Divide and Conquer" tactic very well, it in fact has lost elections for the Democratic Party in the past.

[Goldstein1984]

9. Another Noob's 2 cents worth

I understand that emotions are high right now. The "sausage factory" metaphor doesn't begin to describe the process in Congress. I used to watch FoxNews just to keep an eye on the other side, but it's become just too painful to do that anymore since Obama was elected. And Obama hasn't done anything that makes me question my belief that Corporate America is holding the leashes of all but a handful inside the Beltway.

I've received some great commentary during the few days I've been participating. But I've also been called "teabagger" for suggesting something as democratic and liberal as nonviolent action. Because I'm new and felt obliged to explain myself, I let it go on far too long before I realized that kind of give and take just isn't worth my time.

Pardon my boldness after only a few days on DU, but my plan is to just leave a thread the moment it degenerates into name-calling and start over someplace where my time is better spent--one request to abandon the ad hominem tactic, then I'll be off to some other post where clearer heads prevail.

I voted for Obama. I like Obama. He wasn't the lesser of two evils in 2008, he was the only choice that made sense. And I like what having Obama as president says about this country. I wondered if it would happen in my lifetime. But he isn't getting a 4-year free ride. The pressure stays on. If 2012 comes around, and we're still waisting lives in Afghanistan, still wondering why our government is ignoring the 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments and enforcing the USA Patriot Act, still following don't-ask-don't-tell, still using Predator drones to kill a dozen civilians for every terrorist they kill, still watching the rich get richer while America's working class become peasants... well, it's going to be difficult to vote for Obama again.

What I really think this country needs is to lose in Afghanistan. We need to have the "imperial hubris" kicked out of us so that we stop thinking violence is the solution to all of our "vital national interests."

[tavalon]

17. It's the Democrats in control in the house and senate

who are fomenting this discontent and infighting. To what end, I am at a loss to say.

[PJPhreak]

30. I wont argue this point,

But If one looks around here at DU,the infighting has gotten very nasty at points.

A lot of the same folk who were working for a set of common goals as a cohesive group just a year ago are now flaming each other,have reduced the political discourse to personal name calling and attacks and are splintering apart.

This is what destroys any possibility of getting Anything done.

We laugh at the Repukes because it appears that the GOP may very well become TWO parties in the near future (Just look at NY-23)...Is this the same thing we want happening to the Democrats?

Divide and Conquer.

A Tried and True Tactic.

Armies use it.

Politicians use it.

Unionbusters use it.

Is this what we want....a whole bunch of splinter groups arguing with each other and getting NOTHING Accomplished?

If ya'll want that I suggest one go to a Rainbow Family Council and see how well this idea works....It takes forever just to figure out where to have the following years Gathering,and a lot of folk go away very pissed.Not Good.

[Union Yes]

3. Solidarity!

[grantcart]

4. As we slowly sink into the swamp of incrimination and the end of listening to each other

I offer three words


Increasing Republican Talibanism.



Thanks for always sounding the voice of reason.

[Major Hogwash]

8. Explain to me how letting John Yoo go free helps America.

You can't.

There is no valid excuse for Obama's justice department asking the judge to let Yoo get away with writing the torture memos.

And it doesn't matter one whit to me if it is a Democrat President or a Republican President that thinks that is the proper way to go.

Without justice, there is no hope.

[grantcart]

10. Explain to me how John Yoo has anything to do about the OP?

[Major Hogwash]

11. Running away from this opportunity to explain it, grant?

That doesn't sound like you at all.

[grantcart]

12. Your antecedent is lost. What "it" are you referring to and how does John Yoo have

anything to do with the OP.

[Major Hogwash]

13. Ah, so you don't want to talk about it. And isn't that the gist of the OP, grant?

Not that I'm going to give in easy, but let me know when you've given up talking about it.

[grantcart]

14. Everyone reading this thread will clearly see that you are a prime example

of what the OP is talking about.


People that are not interested in having rational discussions but enter a discussion already anticipating what somebody else is saying. You anticipate my view on a subject but have no real interest in anything I have to say on the subject but simply want to provoke a fight for the sake of some intramural contest.

This OP is a discussion about the quality of debate here


We can talk to each other
And listen
Or not


You apparently have missed the entire point of the OP and have instead demonstrated exactly how people enter into discussions with simply a view to carry on disagreements from the past.

Obviously something from our previous discussions still burdens you and you can't wait to reignite a fight. Ironically I am unaware if we were playing A wedding march, or a requiem mass in the past, unaware that you even harbored such hostility that you felt compelled to reignite whatever past umbrage you carry.



My position on John Yoo is the same as Dick Cheney. I believe that they should be targets of prosecution based on the evidence that career prosecutors develop, not simply because they acted in political bad faith.

It is a small but important distinction that is important to ensure that prosecutions are not politicized. Those who bang on the drum for prosecution do not address the question of how you prosecute high political officials that are not the President and ensure that they are not political prosecutions.

I wonder if it would not be possible to appoint prosecutors with impeciable credentials from Canada, Australia or the United Kingdom who would be able to approach the evidence with complete objectivity and eliminating any possibility of partisan prosecution. It would have to be a procedure that would have to stand the test of time when we Democrats were not controlling the administration.

It is my belief that both John Yoo (and the other lawyers who tried to create a legal justification for torture) and Dick Cheney committed serious criminal acts and that those acts should be prosecuted. It seems clear that Cheney violated several intelligence related laws in addition to his clear involvement in the Plame affair. I don't know what law John Yoo has violated but I assume that giving out patently false legal opinions to create a false legal justification is a violation.

Arriving home late after a week long business trip on Saturday and only getting on DU past midnight I have had to significantly reduce posting here, but don't really think it matters much because I agree with the OP that the quality of discussion seems to have suffered here. If I am going to post an OP I think that the poster should 1) read the relevent original source material and 2) be accessible to answer the people who have taken the time to respond. My current work schedule makes it unlikely that I will be able to do so for some time. You are correct that I have taken on contentious issues in the past, frequently on the side of the President. In the areas I disagree with the President I have not found it necessary to post on the issues here because there are so many here who seem to be making a career out of it.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cliffordu]

23. Threadjack, much???

[Bluenorthwest]

16. Is Democratic Talibanism fine with you?

McClurkin? Warren? The Office of Faith Based Bigotry? You do understand that Obama says his religious dogma is why he opposes equal human rights for all, do you not? That many of his associates have been mucking around in Uganda, sewing vile seeds?
In what way is this a 'Republican' and not an American problem? Democrats impose their so called faiths on me on a daily basis. They contribute to the organizations that attack my family. So no free pass on that finger pointing.

[cliffordu]

25. Can you please connect this with the OP??

I fail to see the relevance in this context.

[grantcart]

32. If you take a hit of LSD its perfectly clear.

[Divine Discontent]

5. Where's Bill Shatner to read this when we need him?

[NanceGreggs]

6. ...

:rofl:

[Myrina]

18. ... or Christopher Walken?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy5JwYOlgvY

[shadowknows69]

22. +1

[pokercat999]

15. Our boat has sunk, rowing is useless, the only oars still

available are in the hole of a slave galley. The only answer is to swim to the other boat, not to be chained to an oar, but to take it away from the current occupants. They are ruthless, violent, armed and intent on staying in their boat forever, our odds seem insurmountable. They have compromised our "leaders" and blindfolded a huge portion of our company. Our only hope may be to take lessons from those ruthless people and show them a mirror of sorts. We cannot turn away from our duty to the future and our own destruction must be of no concern, if we are to succeed. In reason, compassion and compromise, lay failure. The way of the insurrectionist, the rebel, the ones who will not bare the chains of slavery, that is the only way to find justice.

But, we must become a new type of rebel army. Not one of bombs and guns, IEDs and sniper rifles. That way will assure our destruction and can too easily be used against our cause by a corporate controlled media. Our revolution must hit them where it really causes damage and that is in their corporate bank account. We do this, by over participating in their game, not by a general strike. No, instead we over participate, we buy everything, charge it all, use all available credit. New cars, clothes, homes everything possible, all on credit....then stop paying. All of us, all at once, no mortgage payments, no car payments, no credit card payments, no phone, no cable, no electric, no fuel, except by credit card and we do not pay our credit cards. We change our W-4 at work, so that nothing or the minimum tax is withheld. Millions of us, all of us, the middle-class, we would bring the corporations and government to their knees in short order. There is no debtor prison, there is no way to make us pay. Sure they can repossess but to what end? What do you do with millions of slightly used cars, houses, and X-Boxes? Their only choice would be to meet the demands put forth. Single payer health care, a living wage for every citizen, a maximum wage law, guaranteed retirement, etc. We can win but not by saying "Yes, we can" (a phrase that was actually directed to the powers that be...not us) but by shouting..."NO,we won't". We won't continue to play the game by your rules...we make the rules, we will take the power, unrecognized power that has always been there. As individuals we are powerless, as a group we can be unstoppable.

Peace.

[BlueMTexpat]

19. I always love the way that you articulate things, Nance, even when

I am not wholeheartedly in agreement with what you say. It is rare, however, when I am not wholeheartedly in agreement.
And yes, whether we like it or not, we are ALL in the same boat ... the Good Ship Earth!
But I do reserve the right to ignore after many efforts have been made to express a point of view and to listen to the other when all that the other wants to do is to continue arguing with heat but no light.
Life is just too short, especially now that I am in my twilight years, so to speak.
:hug:

[malaise]

20. Fabulous post

:yourock:

[shadowknows69]

21. That is the most fantasitc thing I've read all year.

Nance Greggs does slam poetry. I have seen everything now and I like it.

[cliffordu]

26. K&R....

[Peacetrain]

27. Wow, I wish I had you writing abilities.. K&R

[boston bean]

28. Great, more kumbaya bologne, if only, if only, if only

There is no common ground with issues in women's rights, lgbt rights, war and peace, and wall street vs. main street, and torture.

Yet, we must all listen to eachother to come up with what???

More conservative policy?

After all, it is the lefty assholes who are ruining it for everyone and if they would just shut the fuck up and listen!

What about principle Nance??

[walldude]

29. So how do we do this?

I wrote a thread the other day about not lowering my expectations any further than I already have. And I plan not to. I have been lowering them and lowering them and still, my level of compromise isn't enough.

At what point do liberals stop compromising? Seems that it's always the liberal perspective that gets compromised. From where I'm sitting it looks like the further to the left you are the more you are going to have to compromise. Who made this crazy law that all shifts in thoughts and values has to be to the right? The left compromised this health care bill right into uselessness, many on DU think I should be happy with the bone I'm being thrown. Well I'm not.

So to get us all on the same boat steering in the same direction, do I compromise my values until there is nothing left or do I continue to stand up for what I believe is right?


You know me Nance, I'm not trying to rip on your post, I'm just tired of compromising what I know in my heart is right, and I don't see much compromise anywhere else.

[laststeamtrain]

31. Where IS heard a discouraging word & the skies are cloudy.

Why listen to idiots?

Why speak to idiots?

Why not just let it burn?

Let it burn, burn, burn, let it burn.

[puebloknot]

33. All rowing in the same direction; all goose-stepping in the same direction ...

History has shown that lockstep politics and philosophy have led to disaster.

Yet again, you use a mocking tone in this piece against those who would dissent. Whether out of agreement or out of fear, the citizens of Germany all "rowed" in the same direction in the 1930s, and they're still regretting it to this day.

I'm continually reminded that during the Civil Rights era, an agreement to all row together in the South would have allowed the lynching of black citizens to continue. But the determined *leadership* of JFK and RFK was a first step in ending that nightmare. And many voices across the nation spoke out against that "democratic" practice in the South.

I hope to see the day when Obama finds his voice (not the one he uses so eloquently in his speeches, but the one that says right must win out, even if he's a one-term President) and actually does the things he spoke so *hopefully* about when he was running for office.

In the meantime, duty calls. No rowing in a direction I do not agree with. It has frequently been said that we have to basically force our politicians to do the right thing many times. Let us not forget The Power of One!

Cleverly written, Nance. Just based on a confused premise, in my one and only opinion! Except, that is, for this one line: "When you stop speaking up, you stop being heard."

Indeed!

[newtothegame]

36. AMEN!!!!!

:applause:

[NanceGreggs]

37. Thank you for your comments ...

... on whatever it is you have decided to read into this post -- the fact that your interpretation of what I've said is miles away from what I actually said, notwithstanding.

If you honestly see people talking to each other, giving voice to their concerns, debating their differing ideas - and listening to each others point of view - as synonymous with "goose-stepping" ... well, I don't know what to tell you.

The only thing that comes close to a "mocking tone" in this OP was directed at those who have deliberately gotten themselves tombstoned, or have posted their GBCW piece with all of the attendant Susan-Hayward-drama-of-it-all. As I've stated, when you walk away, you become irrelevant to the discussion.

I feel the same way about the I'm just gonna sit out the next election and the I'm going Third Party types; they are irrelevant to the discussion of how we keep the White House out of the hands of the GOP - as though "that'll teach those Dems I'm unhappy with a lesson" is more important than the wellbeing of the nation as a whole.

I have seen some very positive ideas posted here today by people who may have vastly differing views on how we, as a Party, should proceed from here - but they are sharing those ideas, and presenting them in a reasoned fashion. We may not, as individuals, always share the same political philosophy - but we can serve to remind each other that our goals are common goals, and all thoughts on how best to reach those goals should be assessed and measured, rather than dismissed out of hand - or left unheard because we are too busy screaming at each other to hear what's being said by anyone other than ourselves.

Sadly, my friend, I think your reply is a case in point. You were so busy being incensed by what you think I said, you missed what I actually said entirely.

Maybe the thought of another four-to-eight years of someone like W - McCain, Palin, or whoever - doesn't bother you. To tell you the absolute truth, it scares the shit out of me.

We'd better get our act together - because while we're arguing amongst ourselves over who doesn't want to row in what direction, the competitors in this race get that much closer to landing ashore and claiming the prize.

If you truly believe that people getting together and rowing in the same direction is somehow the wrong way to go about getting there, all I can say is that I hope you and I are never adrift in the same lifeboat.

[puebloknot]

38. Actually, Nance, I'm an editor with 30 years' experience ...

... in the same field you work in. I'm quite capable of critical thought and understanding of what I read. And to be frank, this one was all over the map, presenting an idea and then refuting it a few lines down.

I'm a writer, just as you are. And with my first post here, I was given to understand that "Nance Greggs" is the best writer on this forum (by one of your ardent admirers). I have no wish to enter into a contest to see who gets the gold ring. I fully acknowledge your writing talent. I just don't agree with the content, very often. And I find that when I respond to your posts, it always seems to end in ruffled feathers. I could stay away, but this is, after all, a forum for open discussion of the issues that affect us all!

There has long been a shrill theme running through your various writings in which you take it upon yourself to chastise others for selfishly wanting it *their way*! That flies in the face of open dialogue. And I have often been incensed by it.

On the other hand, I've seen and recommended a number of your posts. It's when you show your "Mother Superior" side that I am inspired to respond with alternative thoughts. Although it is not always demonstrably so, it is best, I think, to realize that for the most part we are all adults here, endowed by the Creator with the ability to form a cogent thought or two. I think it's healthy to have a few naysayers to balance out your fan club -- though the intent of my participation is *not* to simply challenge your position at DU.

I didn't scream at you in my response. I assuredly did not say that open, sincere, and shared exchange is "synonymous with goose stepping." And I cannot imagine how you may have come to the conclusion that seeing the likes of McCain/Palin in the White House would not bother me *at least* as much as it would bother you.

I'm sorry, but your *rowers in a boat* metaphor doesn't seem appropriate to me. I prefer to think of We, the People as varying strands in a tapestry. Yes, each strand is part of a whole, but each exists as a separate part of that whole. Giving up our right and duty to think for ourselves begets tyranny -- on this board, and in the wider world. Those who fired the first shots in the Revolutionary War were people who wanted it their way. True, after that war, there was a need to bring disparate opinions into some kind of structure that would support the birth and continued existence of our new country. They were a raucous bunch, the Founders. But out of that initial dissonance a working democratic republic was formed. Not everyone got it *their way,* but without the spirited discussions, disagreements, and outright quarrels that characterized this country's beginnings, we might have seen a very different outcome. Now we need to continue that tradition of self-respect and self-expression.

I am fully aware of the serious state of affairs in our country. And I have a certain feeling of my own for metaphors involving the sea and storm-tossed vessels. I have crossed the Atlantic Ocean once, and the Pacific Ocean twice, in my lifetime -- once on a luxury liner, twice on U.S. Naval troop ships (as a young "army brat"). In every case, I was aware that there was a captain of those ships who was in charge of seeing that we reached our ultimate destination. I think that is a better metaphor for our Ship of State than the idea of our all rowing together. I wish it *were* more like that. But we vote and we hope that our votes are counted, and then when we win, as we did in 2008, we hope that those we elected are listening to us. We let them know through phone calls and letters that we want it *our way*! If we fail to do that, we can bet the farm that they are going to do it *their* way!

Best regards!

Judy Barrett
Santa Fe, New Mexico

[Bobbie Jo]

34. K&R

:kick:

[Cetacea]

35. K&R. Timely and relevant , as usual.

[azmouse]

39. Excellent as always.

[bigtree]

40. All very reasonable, except the part about rowing together

. . . where we all goin'? We should clear that up first.

[Harry Monroe]

41. Your piece, especially the ending, reminded me of a song by Norah Jones

Sinkin' Soon
From the Album "Not Too Late"
Norah Jones

We're an oyster cracker on the stew,
And the honey in the tea.
We're the sugar cubes, one lump or two,
In the black coffee.
The golden crust on an apple pie,
That shines in the sun at noon.
We're a wheel of cheese high in the sky,
But we're gonna be sinkin' soon.

In a boat that's built of sticks and hay,
We drifted from the shore.
With a captain who's too proud to say,
That he dropped the oar.
Now a tiny hole has sprung a leak,
In this cheap pontoon.
Now the hull has started growing weak,
And we're gonna be sinkin' soon.

We're gonna be
Sinkin' soon,
We're gonna be
Sinkin' soon,
Everybody hold your breath 'cuz,
We're gonna be sinkin' soon

We're gonna be
Sinkin' soon,
We're gonna be
Sinkin' soon,
Everybody hold your breath and
Down and down we go.

Like the oyster cracker on the stew,
The honey in the tea.
The sugar cubes, one lump or two?
No thank you none for me.
We're the golden crust on an apple pie,
That shines in the sun at noon.
Like the wheel of cheese high in the sky
Well ... we're gonna be sinkin' soon.

[mlevans]

42. "if we don’t learn to row this boat in the same direction, all hands on oars, we’re all going down"

Or in circles. That might be another option.

[winyanstaz]

43. I was too late to K & R...but not too late to add my two cents...

The American Economy and Health care problems are the new "Katrina."
We are being left to die, sink or swim.
Time to keep on trying to make that change in government legally of course..but more importantly...time to realize no one is going to come and save us.
There is only one party with two names and they play good party, bad party with us. They do not care about the people but only about lining their own pockets and serving their masters in the Corporations.
We must come together now.
We need a plan and a direction.
We need to help each other or we will all be doomed, middle and lower class as well.
It will help if we have a few drum beaters to keep us going...like you Nance :)