Homeschooling: This evening I attended a concert given by a Homeschool Orchestra

[Sarah Ibarruri]

The music was as can be expected for kids. !!!!! No comment.

However, I learned something.

Lots of people say that homeschooled kids turn out weird. Now I know why. When you're isolated and only permitted to learn right wing extremist, Bible-banging, whacko views, and you're regimented, almost raised like a little army, you're bound to turn out weird.

You know how there are always troubled kids? Kids that you look into their eyes and you can see the insanity? Kids that are too quiet. MUCH too quiet. Kids that say, "Yes ma'am, yes sir, yes ma'am" and you know it's been drilled into them perhaps through punishment? You know kids like those? Well, if you don't, go visit a place where there's a homeschool outing and you'll see them.

I'm sorry, but I think homeschooling is generally a very, very bad idea.

I couldn't believe it but there were some Christian families there who, like the whacko TV Duggar family, believe that men are better, so they wear thick socks, long skirts, frumpy shoes, and they are raised to clean.

Sorry, but it sickens me. I increasingly have a worse and worse opinion of homeschooling.

[stray cat]

1. Some people who home school are atheists and progressives

and some live in areas where sending your kid to school is more dangerous than sending them to Iraq or Afghanistan.

[tonysam]

2. They're a tiny minority. Let's be honest.

The overwhelming majority are religious fundamentalists.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

16. Exactly nt

[lynne]

27. The only homeschooler in my neighborhood is a democrat -

- I know this as the mother is politically active. You're painting with too broad a brush as reasons to homeschool your child extend beyond religion and politics.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

33. What state do you live in? nt

[lynne]

215. Virginia

[kath]

91. You have no idea what you're talking about - only a minority of homeschoolers do so for religious

reasons -- no time to look it up, but the research is out there.

[lightningandsnow]

3. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Not laughing at the first part of the comment, but I grew up in Toronto.

It's really not that dangerous sending your kids to school in an urban area.

Trust me.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

5. I agree nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. Where? Not anywhere I've ever seen. I've lived in north and south florida, and the homeschoolers

are all the same right wing extremist weirdos.

[tonysam]

6. It's true nationally as well.

Liberals and progressives tend to support the idea of public education and send their kids to public schools.

Homeschooling is almost always done because of religious reasons.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

7. Homeschoolers, I heard, was started by liberals... HOWEVER....

NOW? Now they're all right wing, extremist whackos.

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. Liberals who can afford it tend to send their children to private schools

[Sarah Ibarruri]

17. Well, there's no doubt that the right wingholes have waged war on public schools from Raygun on

They've been premeditatedly chipping away at public schools non-stop. What we're seeing now, is the right wing product.

[mwb970]

140. +1 for "wingholes"!

:)

[Freddie Stubbs]

169. Rich liberals have been sending their children to private schools long before Reagan was President

Albert Gore, Sr. sent his son and future VP to St. Albans School instead of DC public schools. Ted Kennedy sent his children to private school as well.

[paulsby]

46. in what universe?

i went to private school and there were TONS of kids of liberal and progressive parents.

here's a hint. liberals and progressives with MONEY , just like conservatives and libertarians with MONEY often send their kids to private school.

this is especially true in areas where the public schools aren't that great.

my area has quite good public schools.

[Brickbat]

23. I've got a couple of good friends, strong liberals, who are homeschooling. Some are doing it just

for a year to get a kid back on track. Some are doing it all the time. They're rare, but they're out there.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. Very rare. nt

[Odin2005]

59. That's because it's Florida, and Florida sucks!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

68. Yes it does! And I agree - autistic pride! I have a niece with autism. nt

[Odin2005]

74. Thanks!

[sense]

107. So then

all the blondes are idiots? The brown people? What are they? Prejudice is ugly. Your tiny little experience is not representative of all home schoolers, only the religious extremists. The majority of people I know who home school do so for academic reasons, but I would not suggest that all do it for that reason, or that they all do it the same way or anything else. If you look no further than your own experience, you've not looked at all.

[slampoet]

170. Wow. That was an ignorant comment.

[peacetalksforall]

8. There must be a few circumstances in which hschooling is justified, but I remember the first

time I heard about it in connections to fundamentalists. My back went up. I think parents who homeschool when there are good public schools are stealing from their kids.

I'm sure there are exceptions that I would endorse, but in general, I think it is a horrible idea.

Homeschooling should be considered homework - home help for kids in public schools and, if necessary, private schools - mixed.

[XemaSab]

12. Where do you live?

How many times has your kid been beaten up by gang-bangers in the last year?

[peacetalksforall]

88. My post starts out saying I know that there are situations that are justified for H-schooling.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

18. Homeschooling is a very bad idea in the U.S.

The U.S. is a very suburban, car-oriented nation of loners who don't have neighborhoods, so the basic people that others see, is their small family unit. If, on top of that, you REMOVE kids from the only other socialization system they have (schools), you are basically forcing them to learn to be your clone. I think that is horrific.

If this were Europe, where people run into others all day long, walk to market, etc. etc., fine. But here, people barely have contact with others except at work and (unfortunately) church.

[paulsby]

48. yes, god forbid people

have contact with each other at CHURCH.

seriously.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

53. There's something wrong in a country where basically the *ONLY* socialization for people

has to come from either work or church. Nothing in a neighborhood. Zip. Zero.

And speaking of church... I go through total and absolute culture shock when I get home from anywhere else on this planet and get back here. Here, everyone wants to pray everywhere. I've never seen a place where people insist on shoving their church at you whereever you go. I spend my life telling people I'm not interested in doing the prayer thing with them. Sorry, but no. I have my own church thing. Keep yours to yourself.

There's too much church weirdness from Raygun to the present.

[paulsby]

60. i think you live in some bizarro version of america

because i see none of this. people socialize at the community center, at sports, etc. etc.

i see neighborhood kids going to tae kwan do classes and socializing, hanging out at the park and socializing, etc.

i work with some young athletes at my training center from all sorts of backgrounds.

you're reflexive american exceptionalism gets boring, but it's also completely detached from the reality i see in our country.

and i can guarantee you i've seen a lot more countries and a lot more of this world than most people (and probably you).

man, summer vacation was just one big long adventure in meeting and socializing with kids from all sorts of backgrounds.

our local libraries have movie nights and storytelling rights, where families get together and socialize.

and let's not forget the backyard barbeque.

my neighbors (one is a solid repub, and the other a solid liberal) do this all the time with each other.

just this past weekend, my wife and a bunch of her friends from school (when they were kids) got together and did a progressive party. all sorts of people. that's just normal. what america do you live in?


but i know, this is DU. american exceptionalism rules. the rest of the world is so much better socialized and adjusted and were just dumb merkuns, socially isolated, and going to our dumb churches.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

67. Sports? I've seen homeschoolers be taken to sports, and all kids....

The child gets in car. Child gets out at park. Child plays the sport. Child gets in car. Child goes home with homeschooling parent. End of story.

Care to show me where the socialization goes on? I might've missed it somewhere.

[sense]

111. Try delving deeper before you go off the deep end

about people who're different than you. They're not robots.. they're real......and just because you've not taken a better look, doesn't mean you're correct.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

223. I'm merely saying that their brains are deadish. They are isolated from the culture...

they PLAN to live in the culture one day, but meanwhile they are isolated from it. How the hell is that a good thing? It isn't.

[paulsby]

195. apparently, the only sport you have ever played

involves navel gazing and amerikka bashing.

because if you had played sports, you'd know that they develop teamwork, cameraderie, and have lots of socializing.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

222. Oh? So, tell me....

While you're running with the ball, are you partaking of conversation?

Maybe there's something I'm missing here.

[paulsby]

270. my sport doesn't use

balls, although it requires a lot of guts (cymbal crash).

but again, you are just spouting from a position of ignorance. i can't speak for football players, but take for example--- baseball. you spend 1/2 the game sitting on the bench while your team is at bat. you talk. heck, you see this all the time with adult ball players, like felix and the gang in seattle. i have a friend who does the off duty where he sometimes gets to work the security detail in the dugout.

sports are a great way to socialize, meet new people, and have a close knit bond with people. we root for each other, train with each other, go to dinner after workouts, etc.

sports are a natural way for kids, and adults, to socialize.

but again, this is the real world. you sound like somebody who is not at all familiar with the social dynamic of a sports team.

[Mopar151]

266. Sometimes. Are you talking sports or games?

Most children are allowed little true sport - and lots of games. Games sometinmes bring about the things you talk about - And often not. Many jocks are egotistical jerks, and are only team players when the coach is watching. And a lot of them are poor team players if a game, or established rank and hierarchies are not involved.
As to cameraderie - if hazing and bullying count as cameraderie, that gets it up to maybe.
Far as socilazing - I don't see it. Sorry.

[paulsby]

269. sounds like somebody with a grudge against jocks

as somebody who played a # of sports, and still competes as a competitive athlete, i just don't see it that way.

i probably spend more time in conversation at my training center, than at any other point during the day. 1 1/2 hours or so of talking smack, catching up, etc. in between training lifts.

when i got injured and had to have surgery, one of the things i missed the most was the camaraderie and socializing that i get with my teammates.

if you've ever been part of a team, it's a great group to be with. we are working together towards similar goals, men women, short tall, young old, etc.

[Mopar151]

275. I went to a jocksniffer high school - the grudge is earned

With state champion banners all over the gym walls. A neighbor of mine was a college All-American in soccer, from a family soccer dynasty - all good people, salt of the earth. The pro basketball prospect in my class was a piece of crap, to be blunt - I still beleive that his racisim and slimy personality is what kept him out of the pro's. Most of the other b-ball guys were not so bad, but they had a good, tough coach - but you can't coach height, and tha a-hole was 7'1". The football team had a lousy coach, who let his wimpy players hot dog, trash talk, and do the whole Lord of the Flies thing - and they were scared of the big, rough farm boys in gym class when we played flag football. And many of the league sports players I've met in the working world were piss-poor teammates in the workplace, with little basic desire to do thier job- never mind well.

On the other hand, my Dad part-timed as an offical at the local stock car track. I've been around racers - Champions and also-rans -since I was a little kid. A pretty rough bunch, in those days - but parts and help flow like water (or beer). You can borrow about half a car from most of your closest competitors, and they'll likely help you get going. If you break down on the way home, the only problem that's likely is the cops busting up the roadside beer party that will break out. I've crewed, officiated, marshalled and driven since I could sign the release (including championships as a driver and a builder) - the difference in people is literally night and day. I've bummed a fanbelt from a NASCAR champion and swapped stories with an icon (Tim Flock), lent& borrowed tools to Canadian and North American rally champions, and given vintage finds and rations of shit to millionaires. I've met some memorable jerks, too - but the ratio is at least 100/1 in favor of great people.
The late rally driver Carl Merril was rich as Croseous - helicoptered in to Mt. Washington for practice, so as not to miss his Friday meeting. Wait a minute, what's holding up the driver's meeting? Carl, in a $1500 custom driving suit, wrestling a Great Dane in the dirt pit lot.

PS - You miss all your friends when you were out for surgery? Mine were at the hospital, helped me move back in to my apartment, and generally busted ass to get me back racin'.

[paulsby]

286. my surgery only took

a couple of hours, and i was back at home. what i missed was the workout hall, the camaraderie, etc. i was on my back, eating cheezy poofs, on heavy painkillers, etc. it was hardly a time where i wanted to BE super social. but i missed it.

as for the jocks, sure some of them can be jerks, especially to non jocks. but a lot of that has to do with the whole high school clique thang anyway. i greatly enjoyed the camaraderie of sports teams, etc.

it's when you share a common goal, and go through the same gruelling, overwhelming, and painful process of training, you are fellow warriors. you share a bond.

jesse owens said

“Friendships born on the field of athletic strife are the real gold of competition. Awards become corroded, friends gather no dust.”

and let's be honest. sports camarederie has helped overcome racism in our society. as sports became desegregated, it made a big difference changing public attitudes. sure, it was a difficult road at first. but in the end, men engaged in sports battles learned that we are brothers, regardless of skin color

[drbtg1]

180. the backyard barbeque? With neighbors? I have neighbors who will call the cops on me if I don't...

...shovel my sidewalk a few hours after snowfall. It gets shoveled but apparently not fast enough for some. I live at the end of the road and nobody uses the sidewalk, but the neighbors think the cops must have nothing better to do other than be the snow enforcement officer.

Not all neighborhoods are the same.

[paulsby]

196. nobody claimed they were

but the previous poster's amerikka sucks and europe is so much better bash-fest aside, i've lived in neighborhoods in new england, california, and hawaii, and in all 3 areas, i saw the same thing.

not to mention experienced it firsthand. kids hang out. that's what kids DO. wiffle ball, surfing (in hawaii), trading baseball cards, etc.

when i was a kid, we used to have fierce atari contests (maybe I'm dating myself). nowadays, the graphics are more advanced.

but the song remains the same.

contrary to the claims by the ignorati, amerikka is not a nation of isolated dumb fundie brainwashed youths who are cloistered away inside their houses.

[krabigirl]

185. Wow, where do you live? No one in my neighborhood even speaks, other than a quick "hello."

Everyone is too busy. We are working on finding a way to move back to a city. Huge mistake to move to the suburbs, for us at least.

[paulsby]

197. i live in a solid middle class suburb

not too far from seattle.

i vastly prefer the suburbs to the city, but i wouldn't mind living in tacoma, as that city has a lot of character. and far less hassles than seattle imo.

[mrs_p]

205. i'm from t-town

of what character do you speak?

:P

[paulsby]

206. i'm rilly a big tacoma fan

i just like it . it's kind of like "the little city that could". it's smaller, and it's in seattle's shadow, so it tries harder. and doesn't have that snobby seattle 'tude.

i've found some great little restaurants in some nooks and crannies of tacoma, and quite reasonably priced.

i really like europa bistro, for example.

i like the fact that parking is not a hassle, nor is traffic.

tacoma reminds me a lot of providence, ri (a city in the shadow of boston ) in that way.

[mrs_p]

207. it has certainly changed

since i was growing up. 30 years ago downtown was completely empty with lots of abandoned buildings and about 20 years ago my neighborhood was overrun with gangs. they have really worked hard to make it a safe town again. check out the tacoma little theater if you ever get a chance - great local talent. and, of course, there is the st. leo's food connection which has helped many people down on their luck.

our home is in west seattle now (when i'm not in colorado for school), but you made me miss my original 'hood a little... :hi:

[paulsby]

209. that's great.

i actually lived in west seattle when i first moved here (a rental). as a hawaii/california transplant, the beach wasn't QUITE up to my standards, but i liked it :)

cheers

[Sarah Ibarruri]

235. Then you'd better run, not walk, to your local library and start reading up on

socialization and isolation in America. You live here. At least you owe it to yourself and your country to know how you are living with respect to the rest of the world. And you're living in an isolationist nation. Denial is not going to help this country one bit. It will, however, sink it further.

[girl gone mad]

135. The more you type on this subject, the less intelligent you sound.

You should really quit while you're still in Glenn Beck territory.

[paulsby]

198. right

because people who don't believe amerikka is a nation of isolated brainwashed fundie youths and that europe is oh so much better and more civilized (american exceptionalism 101 du style) is a glenn beck clone.

fascinating

[girl gone mad]

251. I'm saying the OP sounds about as smart as Glenn Beck..

when he gets on one of his Obama is a racist, I'm crying for America rants.

It's just the right mix of arrogance and bigotry, coupled with objective ignorance.

[paulsby]

268. whooosh. thanks for clarifying

that totally went over my head, and now that iunderstand, i TOTALLY agree.

it is glenn beck'ian in the approach to homeschoolers.

create an "other", and hack away.

fact be damned

good one

[Sarah Ibarruri]

234. You'd better explain. I think you mean the opposite, but who am I to confuse you? nt

[Progressive_In_NC]

174. Our kids are homeschooled (9 and 6) and they aren't allow to socialize with our neighbors

My six year old came in from playing in our yard with the neighborhood kids the other day, asking me why the 13 year old boy around the corner and the 12 year old up the street were f***in' and what that meant. That came from the 14 year old's 8 year old sister.

We live in Raleigh NC in an evenly mixed neighborhood on the southeast side of town. Church and the home school Coop (which has no religious affiliation) are the places my kids are socialized. The neighborhood kids have no adult supervision at all. and are running wild all over the place doing things that they should not be doing way too early in life.

[krabigirl]

186. Um, you do know it's normal for a 13 year old to say inappropriate things?

And yes, youmger kids in the family will parrot what the 14 year-old says. Happened to us n the 70s. How the heck did we survuve socializing with (gasp!) all kinds of kids. I'd rather that than some fundie telling my kid he was going to hell.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

233. A lot of the problems in this society come from the fact that every day we are more and more

isolated from one another. I've lived abroad and I've lived here off and on over the course of many, many years, and every time I come back here, I feel as if I've just crawled into a cavern and locked myself up.

Abroad, communities are closer together physically, there's not this obsessive desire to live in the sticks, far from everyone, far from everything, with the desperate need of a car or there's 0 communication.

People abroad walk to little markets, know one another, see each other every day, visit one another, call upon one another without having to phone first, etc. etc. etc. There's LOTS of socialization. Here? It's terrifying. It's a society where people can go all their lives and not know the neighbor. That's how someone ends up dying in their home and only when the smell hits someone 1/4 mile away or the overgrown weeds look insane, does anyone find out the person is dead.

[krabigirl]

184. I totally agree with you.

I get the same culture shock regarding church whenever I return home from pretty much anywhere else. Then again, I like my unitarian church, but I only truly even go there because I want my kids to learn about all religions...and to help them avoid being sucked into some fundie cult. If I had my choice I wouldn't even go there, but they are very nice people.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

232. I agree with you totally. What really is awful is that...

here in the U.S. oftentimes the ONLY way a person can get a "community" is by joining a church, so even if you are not a religious person, and do not CARE to get involved in some religion, you are forced to because in the U.S. families are dispersed throughout the country, do not live close by, and neighborhoods are suburban and sprawl kills are possibilities of having a closely-knit community like used to exist many, long, long ago in this country, yet still exist in Europe today.

[Pithlet]

249. We're thinking of joining a Unitarian church.

We're not religious at all (I'm agnostic), but we live in a suburb in Tennesee. It's very hard to socialize in this area without belonging to a church, so I've wondered if that would be a good idea.

[madmom]

188. A group of women and I volunteered to help out a local organization with a xmas party for

under privileged families it was non religious, but held in a church basement because of the room. The very first question we were each asked is "what church to you go to?" Why? We were talking about that afterward and realized how weird it was that we were each asked the same thing, almost immediately.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

231. :( I find it SO SAD. I find it scary and sad that everywhere I go....

Americans are insisting on praying, even if the event has NOTHING, ZERO, ZIP, NADA to do with religion.

It is terrifying how insane this society has become.

[madmom]

267. Yes, it's as if that is all there is to their life. It is sad that they can't

enjoy everything. If their god put it here (according to them) don't you think he would want them to enjoy it? They just seem so mad all the time. :shrug:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

277. What's really awful (in my opinion) is that they insist on shoving it down the throats of others

That is what's scariest. :(

[madmom]

285. I know what you mean, I walk away, rude I know, but the alternative would be worse.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

288. You are doing the right thing. nt

[Odin2005]

61. "Socialization" is a BS argument.

It's a euphemism for "brainwashing kids to be obedient corporate drones". School should be for learning, "socializxation" is the PARENTS' responsibility. The state should not be a goddamn nanny unless there is good evidence that the parents are a threat to their kids.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

77. No, actually, socialization is vital. Read Abraham Maslow.

Read anything at all regarding homo sapiens.

Socialization is VITAL.

[LeftyMom]

92. Public school is a terrible place for socialization.

First of all, almost no part of a school day gets spent socializing. Second, what socialization does happen is largely artificial and has almost no relationship to interactions in any other setting. Not once since I left school have I been stuck in a room with 30 people born within a year of me who live in my subdivision (with the economic and racial sorting that implies,) and with whom I share no particular interests or goals.

My homeschooled :scared: kid, on the other hand, spends his time with people of all ages and backgrounds asking questions and having a life. I feel really bad for kids who get deprived of that sort of real, healthy socialization.

[Maine-ah]

151. omg...you homeschool!!!!

you evil woman you!!!

:rofl:

I have considered homeschooling my little peanut. Right now she's going to a private preschool a couple of days a week...which is breaking the bank for just two days at $200 a month, and breaking my back at work just to cover it.

Any advice for those of us that are interested in homeschooling?

[LeftyMom]

157. It's hard for me to give advice,

my kid has never gone to school so learning seems as much an integral part of our day as eating and I don't tend to do a lot of "oh, we're doing something educational now" recognition while we're just learning stuff for fun.

I'm a big fan of John Holt's books on unschooling. Even if you wind up going with a totally different approach I think they're really useful for thinking about how kids learn. His books are also interesting because in reading them his progression from a reform-minded school teacher to somebody who didn't think the system really worked with how kids learned and homeschooling advocate is an interesting sort of meta-story in the little stories he tells about observing children and thinking about what motivates them to learn.

[Maine-ah]

173. thanks!

guess I'm off to go find a book :)

[Progressive_In_NC]

177. There are so many different curriculums available out there now

We spend about $900 a year on our 2 kids' materials. They are both learning Math, English, Grammer, Spelling, Science, History and Civics (I teach the last three, my wife the first four). My daughter has gymnastics, swimming and art outside the home. My son has art, swimming and basketball.

Since coming home from school, both have shot ahead in their end of grade testing (we pay for every year) and are both performing two grade levels ahead.

While it is not for everyone, our kids have flourished, and we are not teaching them from a religious slant at all, just out of love and a desire for them to be well educated which the Wake County School system is not interested in.

[paulsby]

200. i have to agree

the idea that school of all places is the only place kids can socialize is ridiculous imo. i was lucky enough to go to mostly private schools, that offered a lot more freedom and chance to socialize and innovate than public schools, but even so, the VAST majority of interaction with other kids on a kids to kids level, happened outside the classroom. i guess lunch period was good for that, but apart from that, almost all of the interaction with other kids was playing sports, or hanging out in the city.


i don't buy this argument that there is something wrong with people who don't want to stick their kids into the public school system, or that they are depriving their kids of some kind of great experience. a pretty fair %age of kids, especially teenagers are miserable at school, and there is less of that amongst homeschoolers ime.

i did enjoy doing a year of high school at a large socal public high school, for the 'fast times at ridgemont' high effect. but one year was enough

[Odin2005]

163. Great post, LeftyMom!

:yourock:

[XemaSab]

178. Not to mention the fact that for 6+ years you're dealing with

adolescents going through puberty, and the "culture" surrounding that. :scared:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

218. You've got to be kidding me. You had 0 friends in school?

Maybe there was another problem?

How many hours per day does your kid spend socializing exactly? And what activities exactly are these that he spends hours per day socializing?

(Computers do not count as they are yet another isolation tool).

[LeftyMom]

245. Well, I let him out of the basement on Sundays for church.

:eyes:

Your mind is made up, so I really don't see any advantage in justifying myself to you, and for obvious reasons I'm not going to post the gory details of my child's daily activities on the internet. Suffice it to say that he's a delightful human being with a sparkling personality, an amazing sense of humor, and friends of many ages and backgrounds, and that I believe that much of that comes from having an education tailored to his needs, interests and preferred pacing.

Have fun with your preconceived notions anyhow, I'm not stopping you. :hi:

[lynne]

229. Utter Baloney -

- I find my various and assorted friendships from public school socialization - grades 1 thru 12 - to be amongst the most important friends of my 54 years. We share a history that cannot be acquired in any other situation and they are some of my most cherished friends.

Your contention that children in public schools do not spend time with people of other ages and backgrounds is silly at best. My children spent time with people in many different walks of life and of different ages and races outside of the classroom. Just because a child attends school doesn't mean that learning ends in the classroom.

I feel sorry for anyone who cannot see the value in early public or private school socialization. I find it both sad and unfortunate that you have denied your children the possibility of acquired lifelong friendships that early socialization fosters.

[LeftyMom]

248. How sad.

One one hand you praise the "life-long" friendships you made in school (based on that standard I could bewail the socialization of kids who don't grow up on cul-de-sacs, but I understand that differing life experiences are normal and even advantageous,) but then in assessing the socialization of your children based on my criticism of the class stratification of schools you make an about-face and emphasize their opportunities to meet people and socialize outside of the classroom.

My child and other homeschooled children do not lack for those authentic, non-class stratified out-of-classroom experiences, and generally have more time for them as a one-to-one education can cover much more material in less time without the need for busy-work, repetition for the benefit of slower students, or various classroom-management and "housekeeping" activities like roll and passing periods.

My child and other homeschooled children have as much opportunity for early and life-long friendships as public or private schooled kids do, because they play with those very same kids at the park, in the neighborhood after school, during sports and other activities, etc. In fact I know he spends hours a day socializing with the local public school kids, because as soon as school lets out they all show up at my house, and often I can't get them all to go home until well after dark.

[kitfalbo]

143. Hmm

Socialization in the greater context is not vital for all Homo Sapiens, that is a terrible genralization. Now social relationships might be important. Just check with must AS or non NT's.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

217. Read up on the isolation of the American society nt

[peacetalksforall]

87. Socialization is not just play or forming friendships across the tracks - it's about

absorbing many questions, answers, fresh thoughts, and especially listening, sharing, debating. It is the BEST training for working with other people and getting along with other people - a wide array.

Kids at a certain age need to get away from the parents and learn how to speak and care for themselves.

Isolation in a daily learning environment breeds prejudice, imo.

[Odin2005]

162. As another poster said, it is nonsense that school is the only place that can occur.

It is a very narrow, pro-nanny-state view of child development.

[paulsby]

203. it's also a myth that homeschooling

necessarily (or even frequently) "isolates' kids, even referring to teaching hours.

many homeschoolers POOL their resources with other homsechoolers. kids get exposure to more than one teacher, and their kids.

but ultimately, the proof is in the results. i have yet to see a study that shows homeschooled kids are worse off than school taught kids.

most of the evidence, at least anecdotal, suggests the opposite.

for example, it amazes me how often homeschooled kids win spelling bees, geography bees, etc. at state and national level considering what a small%age of kids are homeschooled.

of course the anti-homeschoolers will just say "well, that's just rote memorization, it's not learning" etc. etc.

[krabigirl]

187. Exactly. Also, kids need to learn that there are jerks out there.

Otherwise, they are in for a rude awakening once they go out into the world.

[sense]

112. yes!

[kitfalbo]

141. Well.

Socialization is BS for auspies, NT's seem to need it. Knowing the rules of socialization is imporant however.

[Cid_B]

69. I was homeschooled for several years...

My socialization came through scouting. My folks are solid democrats.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

80. But that's not DAILY hours and hours of socialization you get in school.

That's a day or two a week, for 2 little hours.

There's socialization lacking when you remove school.

[Cid_B]

105. Uh huh...

Why waste all that time getting an education when you can "hang out."

I've attended private, public, military and home schooling. They all have their pros and cons and most of them can be balanced out with just a bit of effort. This grand swipe that all home schoolers must be anti-social religious nuts is laughable at best.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

213. You clearly have never been further than the local Walmart.

And obviously know very little about the isolation of the U.S., which was also reported today in a study.

Carry on. Ignorance is bliss.

[Cid_B]

240. You sure about that?

I've lived all over the US and in Germany. I've traveled to 2 dozen plus countries and am currently serving in the middle east.

A bit farther than the local Walmart eh?

[sense]

113. Not if you're normal.

There's bullying lacking if you don't go to school..... if my kids need to learn about that I can take their lunch money and lock them in the closet.... There really are better ways to learn most anything than crammed into a room with 30 other 6 years olds..... what kind of socialization is that? I want my children to be able to interact with all sorts of people, and they do, every day.

[Maine-ah]

152. lofl!

:yourock:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

212. There was bullying when my grandpa went to school - we've discussed it

There's always been bullying. There's bullying in real life. At work, at play, in relationships, in marriages, in everything.


I'm all for parents being held responsible for the behavior of bullies. Do that, and see how fast that ends.

[sense]

110. Ridiculous

How sad that you think the only socialization system is in school. How about the real world, where people of all ages exist and interact, instead of just seeing kids your own age? Learning without the rest of the herd means you get to learn at your pace, study things you're interested in, when you're interested in them (which is the best way to retain what you learn) and to go as in depth as you want about the things you're excited about. There are lots of resources for home schooling in the community, you've just got to be interested in doing the best you can for your children. I know there are extremists everywhere, people who want to isolate their children, but lump one group of people together just because you don't know any better. When will we learn that we're all individuals?

[peacetalksforall]

166. I am not the one who introduced the word socialization in my first post. I would

not have used that word becomes it denotes 'social' for some and the conversation would get stuck thinking about the play interaction. In a follow-up post I emphasized the classroom. The classroom is the perfect place to have minds opened, not channeled. Listening to different interpretations. Being challenged to think. Being exposed to behaviors that make a child think. Getting lucky to have different teachers who inspire. Learning to defend oneself. Everything learned in the area of inter-relations helps one move into the community and work world.

There is nothing to exclude specialization of interests if the teachers are good. The parents can help out with specialization.

No parent sends perfect messages to the kids. It makes sense that the parent's prejudices and the parents interests are going to dominate.

I was lucky with my parents - smart, schooled, curious, readers, modestly involved with the neighborhood, and with no prejudices taught - but, still I would have felt that they cheated me if I had been home schooled - even if they had both had doctorates in education.

I learned plenty and was affected by many different teachers and especially all those children in all those classrooms. I felt fortunate and I shudder at what those kids are missing.

There are always exceptions of circumstances.

But, I will go so far as to say that if a cult is a cult because of narrowness of teachings and beliefs, then home schooling, when there are good schools around, is something of a cult - re narrowness.

In fact, if there are good schools around, and home schooling is preferred, the basis might be prejudice. It would be my first question.

Answer me this, what do parents leave out of their curriculum?

Perhaps it doesn't matter anymore, this country is so hypocritical when it comes to what is said versus what is reality - such as teaching children about our right to vote and the value of our vote when the reality, votes are stolen and faked.

[vadawg]

153. lol i cant believe that you think that europe and the US are so different

its nothing to do with the country its where people live, in europe people who live in rural areas pretty much use their vehicles the exact same way as rural americans, and people who live in american cities pretty much similar lives to their european counterparts.. im thinking that just because you live the life of a loner you are projecting your existence on to the rest of america....

[brendan120678]

172. You went to an orchestra consisting of...

home schooled kids, right? Seems like they're getting some socialization there.

Home-schooled kids participate in activities with other home-schoolers. In many school districts, they are still allowed to participate in sports, and many of them have a joint graduation when that time comes.

[HuckleB]

97. It's almost tempting to home school the kids during middle school.

Why put 'em through that?

;)

[Mariana]

190. I did exactly that.

It was one of the best decisions I ever made for my child. She's in public high school now and is doing very well there.

[sense]

108. You should try speaking to normal

people who home school for academic reasons. When the schools are teaching to the bottom, how can it be remotely humane to leave them there. Schools are incredibly dumbed down in many areas of the country, so you simply have to look for other alternatives. Home schooling isn't mom sitting around the kitchen table pretending it's school. Everyone does it differently and very few (except the extremists that exist in any population) bring the school model home as it's not the most effective way to educate. It's very effective if what you're raising is Wal-Mart employees.....

[liberalhistorian]

9. Excuse me, but there are a LOT of homeschoolers who are not

that way at all; in fact, who are progressive, or liberal social-minded Christians, or similar groups. And I've known a lot of homeschooled kids who were not at all "weird" but who were very well-rounded, well-informed, engaged and interested. You're being just as bad as freepers who make such sweeping broad generalizations of groups and denigrate them.

[LiberalFighter]

13. That is most likely predicated on whether the parent doing the homeschooling is qualified.

And I am going to go out on a limb to say that the wackos are most likely not qualified and don't have the concept of intelligence.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

15. I guess that's true too. The problem with homeschooling is this....

you get zillions of times more influence from the parents than if the child goes to school. You're in essence injecting your everything into the kid and giving him no breathing room and no exposure to anyone else. You're shoving your entire ideology, full blast, the entire thing, into the kid.

It's not great (in my opinion) even if it's someone sane, but if it's some totally f*d up right wing extremist Bible banging GW Bush lover, it's a million times worse.

[sense]

114. What crap!

Home schooling is just a name.... for something different. It doesn't remotely mean that you stay at home. We're never home. There are classes, activities, co-ops, friends, field trips (except that we just call them life). You've really got to look up from your little world......There are home schoolers all around you and you don't even notice them because they're living their lives, not stopping to pray every hour....... It's just an alternative route, nothing to get all up in arms about.

[LiberalFighter]

161. And mostly only those that are not intelligent enough to home school would be of that ilk.

Everyone else that has reasonable intelligence and common sense would know that home schooling is not a good thing. Even our Founding Fathers didn't rely on teaching their kids on their own. They hired teachers to come in to teach them.

[vadawg]

165. depends on the standards of the teachers i suppose, at least in the founders case

they could easily sack the crap teachers and ensure that they had good teachers for their kids, but when you put your kids into public schools you get the good, the bad and the awful and thats just the teachers...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

21. That's very important, but still, when the kid is forced to spend 24/7 with the parent....

Do you really think the kid is going to turn out well?

Even in olden times, kids were out and about, not stuck 24/7. Now they can't be because we live in a suburban, car-nation, where there are no people out on the streets and nobody knows their neighbors because no one sits outside, stands outside, eats outside on the sidewalk, etc.

Into this isolation, Americans want to bring even MORE isolation in the form of forcing kids to be removed from school socialization. oi vei.

[sense]

116. Where do you get these strange

ideas? 24/7? Maybe you should read more. You sound isolated.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

19. Still, you're taking your kid and drilling a hole in his head and the only things allowed in that

brain are whatever you spit out. It's wrong. Kids need exposure to other human beings.

[XemaSab]

11. When I think about the time I spent warming a chair

dealing with social bullshit, "learning" stuff that I already knew, "learning" stuff that was just plain wrong, dealing with hostile teachers, or other problems I encountered... the more I endeavor to homeschool any kids I have.

[TNDemo]

14. But didn't that help you learn to deal with college and the workplace?

Life is full of those kind of people and those long boring days. Seems like it would be a real shock to the system if everything was designed just for you and your needs until you were an adult. Not trying to start a fight - just thinking.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. +1

[rockymountaindem]

42. So we should make our schools boring, mindless and repetitive because that's life?

No wonder people drop out so much.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. And life isn't that way? Work isn't that way? The earth isn't that way?

Why deny your kids the ability to learn from easier level on up to harder level, how to deal with other humans?

[sense]

117. Exactly!

Who wants that for anyone? If the majority of us can't do better than that.....sad.

[janx]

20. Not necessarily true!

I teach college undergraduates, and there is a huge spectrum when it comes to home schooling. What I've found is that it depends on why the students are home schooled and also how dedicated their parents are.

One stellar example is a guy I taught who was raised in a wilderness area. His parents are U.S. forest rangers. He also has a disability that he manages very well--but he kicked ass in the classroom! This guy is one of my favorite students.

Granted, when it came to high school, his parents sent him to people who were educated in their subjects. It was a huge deal to try and educate their kids when they lived in the middle of a wilderness.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. A couple of months ago a guy at my work was telling a story about his dorm days....

There was this homeschooled kid at the dorm, shy, quiet, didn't know what other kids talked about. He was kind of the Rip Van Winkle of the dorm, as if he had been asleep for years and known NOTHING about our American culture. People cringed around him.

Anyway, he was so whacko that nobody wanted to hang out with him. Eventually he found friends, among the drop-outs who were high on dope 24/7 and were bound to flunk out. Soon, he was missing classes, and eventually one day just didn't return.

[janx]

28. That's very unfortunate and depressing.

The only thing I can guess about home schooled kids is that some are home schooled because their parents don't want them to be a part of society. Other parents, like the ones I mentioned, do this because they have to.

[sense]

118. Keep passing on the prejudice....

[Ms. Toad]

159. The first paragraph could easily apply to my daughter

who was NOT home schooled, but whose background was quite different from her college peers. Most of them went to private schools, had cable television, and access to other material things we decided were not good uses for our money. She felt quite out of place at times because their conversations included subjects to which she had not been exposed.

People's life experiences when they enter college vary tremendously. Those who did not experience the norm for the college they ended up in for whatever reason will seem odd - and most of those reasons have nothing to do with home schooling.

I am a strong advocate of public school, but you seriously need to go somewhere and meet some real kids who have been homeschooled for reasons other than religious ones. Most of them are bright, well-adjusted kids who are interested in lots of things the typical teenager isn't interested in, and who are typically far more capable than their peers of carrying on intelligent conversations with people of a variety of ages.

[XemaSab]

175. I know a girl who went to public school who was like that

:shrug:

[Synicus Maximus]

25. I'm sorry dear heart but it maybe just that I'm old but when I went to

public school everyone I knew said "Yes ma'am, yes sir, no ma'am" and no sir", it didn't have anything with punishment, at least not much, it was just being polite. You do understand polite right?

[janx]

34. This is fun, and it's cultural.

when I started teaching college undergraduates in New Mexico, they sometimes referred to me as "Miss."

I'm over fifty years old, and when they started doing this I was in my late forties. It was very sweet and respectful, but I couldn't figure it out! :rofl:

Instead of saying, "Ms. Kieffer?" or "M'am", they would say, "Miss?"

On the other hand, some students refer to me by my last name, even to the department secretary, as in "Where is Kieffer?"

[Sarah Ibarruri]

35. What year was that? And I am supposing your plant people with 1950s likes and dislikes

into the year 2010? Is that like a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court? All of a sudden voila! An anachronism appears.

[tammywammy]

179. I was born in 1980

I say ma'am and sir every day. It's proper manners. And no I wasn't beaten by my parents growing up either.

Maybe if you stepped out of your view of the world you'd understand, instead of posting broad brushed prejudicial smears. :shrug:

[Meldread]

96. It might be a southern thing....

...but I'm 27 and I still refer to people (especially older people) as ma'am and sir. It's being respectful. No one punished me for not doing it, I learned it naturally because that's what everyone did. I'd see it as disrespectful if people didn't treat strangers that way.

It's hard for me to imagine someone having trouble with: "Yes, ma'am." It just seems foreign and bizarre.

What do people elsewhere say, "Hey, you!" Or "Hey, lady!"?

Whereas, I'd say, "Excuse me, ma'am?"

LOL. It's just silly, but I prefer it my way. I get a much better reaction, I think.

Also, in school we learned the difference between Miss and Mrs. We weren't punished for getting it wrong, just corrected because Miss is directed at a woman who isn't married, whereas Mrs. is directed at a woman who is... it's the proper way to speak. I noticed a lot of kids, toward the end of my high school years, just calling all the teachers Miss.

[Pithlet]

250. It's definitely a southern thing.

I noticed it right away when I moved down here. People proclaiming it's a manners thing were probably raised in the south.

[The Straight Story]

26. In this case I think it is you who is "isolated and only permitted to learn right wing extremist..."

And so on.

I have been around many home schooled kids, like my daughter and niece (as well as two nephews). And they all seem pretty normal to me.

Maybe you should get out more and not let your mind be so isolated that you judge a large group by the few and the stereotypes people toss out there about them.

I swear, the leftists around here will do anything they can to hold on to belief christians are all insane freaks, to the point that they brainwash themselves by rejecting anything positive about them and spend all their time looking for others to verify what they already 'know'.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. "The leftists?" I guess you're not a lefty huh? At least you're upfront about that nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

78. That was cute how you kind of ignored his point

Nice job.

[LeftyMom]

138. Hey, careful with that broad brush. I'm a leftist and a homeschooling parent.

For that matter, the wackiest fundie I know IRL, who is still a very nice lady but she's got some crazy ideas I wouldn't really want her passing on to my kid, is a public school teacher. :shrug:

[phasma ex machina]

273. Fundies created public schools in America.

Old Deluder Satan Law

Over 100 of the nation's colleges, including Ivy League institutions such as Harvard, use some variation of "The Truth Shall Set You Free" John 8:32b as their motto.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. I have a very good friend who is a great progressive Democrat who homeschools her kids

I understand and agree with many of your points. My friend has done a good job teaching her kids. They are bright and inquisitive and appear to be well educated. But my friend's kids are very quiet and don't appear to have much of a social life. I have seen them in many situations in the years I have known their mom when they are with other kids and just stand there on the sidelines like they don't know what to do. Maybe it is their nature but it is odd.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

40. Here's what I think it is....

The U.S. is already a country where people live in isolation. Unless you have lived elsewhere, you won't know what the heck I'm talking about, honest.

This country is a car country, we don't dense towns where everyone knows everyone, we don't have dense cities where everyone walks and runs into others daily, we live isolated. To work by car, by car to the isolated home where often one "knows" the neighbors only if they wave or if the cops come to arrest them for having murdered somebody.

The LAST thing kids need is to have their only form of socialization removed from them. The LAST thing they need is to be stuck home 24/7 having cabin fever for 12 years. I think about it and it sends chills up and down my spine.

That's why when they get out there they just do NOT know anything. They're inept socially, they don't know how to speak to other kids because they've only been allowed to have socialization with their mom and dad, and sporadically under a super-controlled situation while touring some thing with the local homeschool group.

It's a pretty bad way to grow up. I thank God I didn't have to go through that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. I talked to my friend about this

I told her that most employers want employees who can work together as a team. Kids need to spend time with their peers and learn to interact with them. It's a life skill.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

50. Yep, it's a skill. By keeping them home 24/7, and allowing socialization ONLY with the parents...

what you are doing is keeping the child mentally imprisoned. When people say that homeschooled kids turn out a little or a lot weird, they're not just saying it because they pulled that out of their ears. They're saying it because homeschooled kids act like Rip Van Winkle. They live in a society they're not familiar with, they don't know the cultural jokes, they don't know the cultural language, they don't know how to be funny, they don't know much of anything to get along with the rest of this country's humanity. They'd have to undergo a crash course, and even so, they'd still feel out of sorts.

[metalbot]

181. That's at least 3 posts you've made about 24/7

Very few home schooled kids are kept home 24/7. If you want to argue that "keeping your kids at home, teaching them yourself, and allowing them no contact with the outside world is bad", I don't think anyone is going to argue with you. However, many people here are pointing out that that's NOT something that is recommended in any reputable home schooling curriculum. Of course socialization is important, and it's part of a good home schooling curriculum. The nice thing about home schooling is that you have much more flexibility for socialization and interaction outside of your specific age group.

I agree that some people do screw up kids when trying to home school them. I'd argue that this is because those people were grossly unqualified to home school and decided to wing it rather than really studying how to raise a child, rather than a flaw of home schooling as an institution (something that you seem to want to paint with a pretty broad brush).

[Sarah Ibarruri]

237. Oh I know. No one stays home 24/7. They go to the market, shop, then drive back into isolation

They also go to the doctor, then drive back into isolation. Once in a while they'll meet up with a homeschooling group, visit a museum, then drive back into isolation.

And all under the overpowering control of the parents with not a break for the kid. The kid doesn't get to enjoy the influence of anyone else.

[foo_bar]

183. I was schooled in both places, but...

They live in a society they're not familiar with, they don't know the cultural jokes, they don't know the cultural language

That's how I felt in (public) school, since most of the "cultural language" revolved around television, and I read books (and Fidonet bulletin boards in the pre public internet days). After skipping two grades, I became more of an outcast with regard to the machinations of Knight Rider, but long story short: I have more flexibility in life than my peers factory-raised by a ("24/7" propaganda spew) corporate culture, IMO, since I have something to talk about with non-Americans, and there seems to be a natural selection advantage in being "weird", even though I'm paralyzed at the water cooler. Tasks that are painfully simple to me require committees to solve among the culturally conformed, so I have to conclude that "get<ting> along with the rest of this country's humanity" is overrated if it means disregarding the other 99% of humanity and history, which appears to be what's at stake given recent American history.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

236. Here's the thing.....

It's good to train your kid well, but to isolate your kid from society for many years then let him out into the society you've denied him for all those years, has the same effect as releasing someone from prison into the society after years of not functioning within it.

There's a lot more that is wrong with homeschooling, however, for example, the fact that the overwhelming influence of the parent is not merely the normally parental influence, but a 24/7, everything, everyday, every moment influence with no one else's influence to give the kids a break.

[foo_bar]

241. what's "normally parental influence", though?

I don't mean the use of an adverb to modify a noun, I'm wondering what the "norm" consists of: "Quality time" with double-income latchkey parents? Donna Reed? What about extended families, where the "24/7" responsibility is shared among grandparents and aunts and cousins?

<...> has the same effect as releasing someone from prison

I highly doubt that, prison is full of spontaneous social interaction, otherwise you couldn't learn skills like sharpening sporks and shanking fellow inmates. My public high school was a bit like that, actually, since the windows were barred and there were teams of security guards trained to tackle problem students, but maybe the Bronx isn't your idea of normal.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

276. It's the Rip Van Winkle effect - isolate the kid, then, when he is an isolated weirdo...

who doesn't know how to relate to people in the culture, release him into life.

[sense]

119. Maybe they're standing there wondering why

the kids around them act so immature and ditzy...... Publicly schooled children look ridiculous to many.

[proud2BlibKansan]

133. Some of the kids they hang out with are home schooled

Fail at your attempt to slam public school kids.

[1]

31. heh. you don't like "yes ma'am & yes sir." ??? would you prefer "hey! fuck you, asshole!" ???

oooh... scary polite children... oooh...

:rofl:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. Oh? They must either be military-like robots, or live on the street?

What an interesting choice you present. No wonder you're in favor of homeschooling.

[1]

43. my god, you are so given to hyperbole...

oh course polite children must be that way because they are "drilled" and "punished."

oh course *i'm* in favor of homeschooling because i commented on polite children.

the fact is that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. your mind leaps to all sorts of conclusions in the absence of fact.

but hey, its a free country, make up all the shit you want to justify your world view.

sad...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

45. Hey, don't come whining. You're the one that provided the options.....

1) Either robotic: "Yes ma'am, no ma'am, okay ma'am, no sir, yes, sir"

OR

2) Gang language.

I didn't provide those options.

[1]

58. polite does not mean robotic. fuck you does not equal gang. turn your ego down a few notches...

[sense]

120. Options.... that describes home schooling.

Not having to fit into the silly little boxes of school. You can be who you are, not who your peers think you should be.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

238. Of course....

Option 1: School, with all the kids and teachers interacting with the kid

Option 2: Parent 24/7 interacting with the kid, and if he ever gets out, it's WITH the parent, so the kid never gets a solid break away.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

139. After posting post #31, you lose all rights to say "my god, you are so given to hyperbole".

Indefinitely.

[Cid_B]

106. Just call the parents by their first names and be done with it...

I still don't get that one. I think I've called my dad by his first name 3 times. They were also across crowded rooms.

[Withywindle]

38. Well, there are really two kinds of homeschooling families, and the difference will show in the kids

Progressive, liberal homeschooling families will go out of their way to expose kids to the arts, sciences, different cultures, etc. They usually have a houseful of books, hire outside tutors, take lots of educational trips and the like (there is a certain amount of privilege implied here--not just of money and leisure time but also of geography; it's a lot easier to give kids this widespread exposure if you live near an urban area with a lot of culture and diversity and can afford to have a parent not work at a paying job and do the teaching).

The other kind, the religious right kind, homeschool precisely because they want to keep their kids from being exposed to the "evil" of everyone in the whole world who doesn't conform to their exact way of thinking.

The difference in quality of education is obvious, but I'm still bothered by both - both imply that parents have the right to determine their children's educational process TOTALLY. And that doesn't sit right with me. The whole point of raising children is that they grow up to be OTHER PEOPLE. The sooner BOTH types of kids start learning to deal well with all sorts of people, including those who don't share their parents' values, the better.

Signed, a rural kid who went to public school. Yes, it was tiresome dealing with all the bible-bangers, right-wingers, homophobes, and racists you'll get in Appalachian schools, but the idea of spending all my days at home with my parents....:scared: As much as I loved them then and still. Learning to leave home regularly is **important**, and in a tiny mountain town, one is already isolated more than enough!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

41. I know. It's pretty terrifying to think that kids should be stuck with their parents 24/7....

how much more scary to be stuck 24/7 with those parents if they're complete whackos. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[paulsby]

51. sorry, but that's a grossly oversimplified analysis

there are plenty of people who homeschool who are not progressive, not libreral, and not fundies either.

they are just normal folks who want to have their kids get a better education.
you set up this false binary system where it's either the "good" liberals and progressives, or those dumb fundies.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

55. The issue is this - they might do a little better at geometry than sitting in geometry at the local

school, but they are in essence removed from the only socialization available to children in this country, and this country is LONER COUNTRY already. We hardly need to be pulling kids further away from all socialization and into parent-child constant contact till they're 18. By then it's too late and they're weirdos.

[paulsby]

62. you keep reintroducing this myth

about school being the ONLY socialization available to children in this country (oh, us stupid isolated dumb merkuns). it's crap.

it's false. it's rubbish. what america do you live in?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

65. Yeah? Then tell me where kids will be socialized in America, if you pull them out of school.

Go on. I'm listening.

[paulsby]

76. among other things

almost every day after school, we'd play wiffle ball in the streets. all sorts of neighborhood kids.

we'd go to story night usually once a week or so at the city library.

in the summer, we'd play little league.

in cali (when i lived there), kids socialized through surfing or skateboarding. etc.

kids HANG out with each other. that's what kids do.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

79. Neighborhood kids? What city/town?

What year?

I don't see any kids outside anywhere. Just stepping out for a moment, then going back in because no one is outside.

Except in extremely poor neighborhoods.

[paulsby]

194. what neighborhood?

newport RI, hartford CT.

solid middle class, not poor, neighborhoods.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

216. Interesting. Nothing like that in Florida, California, Texas, etc. nt

[Luminous Animal]

256. Really. Because I live in San Francisco and there are oodles of kids

in the parks & playgrounds. They play newfangled games with each other called hopscotch, four square, freeze tag, red rover, and catch. Many of these kids do not go to the same schools but they meet up nearly every day and become, what is known in their lingo, friends.

[paulsby]

272. wow

we definitely need to send a team of sociologists out to these neighborhoods to investigate this unusual activity.

kids... PLAYING

interacting socially?

that doesn't happen in amerikkku!!!!

not in sarah's world (tm)

we are just dumb fundie kids, isolated from our peers and too busy being indoctrinated to play with other kids.

we cloister ourselves in our fortresses behind our spiked fences, and cautiously look out the window, all the time holding large caliber weapons, eating cheez whiz, and maligning those darned libruls!

[paulsby]

271. oh please

my cousin lives in cali. her kid does the same thing i did when i was there. hang out with her surfer friends. go to the beach, etc.

maybe just because you didn't happen to enjoy socializing with other kids (is that the problem) you assume others don't.

[tammywammy]

202. The kids in my neighborhood play around

I see them every day. They go to the park that's at the end of the street, I've seen them riding their bikes around, and playing basketball at the next door neighbor's hoop. I live in a working class neighborhood, not what I would call "extremely poor." I think you need to step outside of your own world.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

214. You have an unusual neighborhood. Where do you live? nt

[tammywammy]

263. Arlington, Texas n/t

[sudopod]

103. Where do you live?

The 70's?

[U4ikLefty]

104. lol!!! (nt)

[paulsby]

201. a nice middle class suburb

outside seattle. not a lot of picket fences, but lots of normal kids doing normal things, like kids do. homeschooled or not

[mwb970]

145. The kids I know mostly watch TV and play computer games.

Your description sounds like a Norman Rockwell painting of Mayberry.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

226. Where? Where do kids hang with one another?

What neighborhoods are you talking about? One in Madrid? One in Lyons? One in Wurzburg? I would believe it if you mentioned a town or city in Europe. But HERE? In this isolationist car-nation?

[Dorian Gray]

134. My friend homeschooled her son for 8 months

after he was bullied and punched-- bloodied-- at his public school. (Age 7) She took him out while she researched other options for him. He continued with his other activities, which included CCD classes, little league baseball and pop-warner football, and art classes. He also had friends who he would get together with on weekends. Socialization!!!

She found another school that worked well for him the following year, and there were no instances of bullying.

The homeschooling was a temporary solution for their problems, but there were definitely many sources of outside socialization for her son. (Her daughter was in nursery school at the time, and continued.)

I think many people choose to homeschool because of similar issues, and they can not afford private schools.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

225. Bullies are scum, but bullies existed always in schools and everywhere

In fact, they even exist in the workplace, next door, at the market, everywhere. It's one of the bad parts of humanity. It's not a new thing that just developed recently.

[Dorian Gray]

260. Of course it isn't....

but she didn't feel the teachers or the admin were protecting her child at all, so she removed her child from a destructive situaiton. There are many good reasons for someone to choose to homeschool, and to broadbrush the whole system as being filled with right wing fundies is short-sighted.

[Dorian Gray]

261. Of course it isn't....

but she didn't feel the teachers or the admin were protecting her child at all, so she removed her child from a destructive situaiton. There are many good reasons for someone to choose to homeschool, and to broadbrush the whole system as being filled with right wing fundies is short-sighted.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

279. You clearly don't know who sits on school boards and how they got there

I did a project on that. It's very interesting. It scared the flip flops off my feet.

[Dorian Gray]

283. Huh?

[superduperfarleft]

168. When I was homeschooled, I played with other neighborhood kids.

You're really making this up as you go along, aren't you?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

224. Yeah, and is that neighborhood around? I've yet to see a neighborhood where people hang out

as they do in Europe. It just doesn't exist in this car-nation.

[foo_bar]

247. yes, play is dead.

Not like in Europe. You should get a talk radio show or something.

[Luminous Animal]

257. Delaware City, Delaware. Lexington, Michigan. San Francisco, California.

Those are the towns where my siblings and I live. Each of us and our kids hang out with our friends in the neighborhood.

[superduperfarleft]

264. Gotcha. You ARE making this up as you go along.

Yes, that neighborhood is still around. It's not like this was 50 years ago; I'm not THAT old.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

230. Okay, let me go through this again. Explain to me what an alternative method of

socialization for kids in the U.S. is. I do not count computers as they've been named as of TODAY as another reason why Americans are isolated.

I do not count dropping the kid off to kick the ball, then picking him up to return to the same house, where he spends 24/7 with the same parents injecting into him every ounce of every opinion those parents have and nothing else. No individual effort at conversation with other kids, or adults without the mommy and pappy right there instructing, watching and practically moving his hands, eyes and mouth like a robot.

But do go on. Explain to me the wealth of socialization a homeschooled kid gets.

[Rabrrrrrr]

147. You should get out more. Sounds like you are very lonely and obsessing on it and projecting it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

228. You clearly didn't hear the latest stats on isolation in America.

Maybe you should be reading more about reality in the U.S., and dreaming less.

[Rabrrrrrr]

265. You're fun!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

278. Oh that's right! I forgot! Let's all ignore reality all at once and it will go away!

yeah that's it!

[Rabrrrrrr]

280. Your histrionics are adorable!

I wish I could bottle that up and sell it!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

281. And your desperate need to be Dr. Pangloss is truly dramatic.

This is the best of all worlds, isn't it?

Dream on. You're doing good.

[Rabrrrrrr]

282. Your inability to read is even more dramatic!

It's your melodramatic hyperemotive bloviating and obsessively single-pointed histrionic logorrhea that's so stunningly precious, not the content.

You see, in the evolved mind, one can disagree with how one says something, even if one agrees - in some respect - with what is being said.

Just bring it down about ten notches, and you might notice that, while you have a legitimate point, it is not the entirety of the truth of the point; it is a subset, a component, an atom of the whole.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

287. Notice - since I won't be reading any more of your posts....

Feel free to continue if it provides you with pleasure.

Bye!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Rabrrrrrr]

289. Oh, for fuck's sake - you act like that's some kind of "win" 'cept it proves the truth of my words.

:eyes:

Yeah, I'm really out something because you put me on ignore.

:eyes:

I always like to think of the rightwingers as the immature people, but, sadly, we liberals have our fair share as well.

[Withywindle]

98. I get your point, but really, what is "better"?

How many parents are certified to teach every single subject - mathematics, spelling, grammar, literature, history, social studies, PE, biology, chemistry, physics, languages, art, music, all sorts of trades and skills--that a kid would need or might be interested in? The whole reason schools of any kind--public, private, religious, what have you--exist at all is that, in theory, it's the most efficient way to get the greatest number of trained professionals in different disciplines in one building for kids to learn from.

How can any one couple match that? No matter how smart they may be, it's still true that total polymaths skilled in all areas are pretty damned rare.

[sense]

121. You've just described one type of home schooler, (progressive, liberal,

exposed to all sorts of different experiences and people), then insisted that they're not spending time with others.... You can't have it both ways. Progressive, liberal home schooler here. My children are not carbon copies of me or my husband and we're thankful for that! They are much better educated than we will ever be because they're interested in so many different things and they have the time to explore them. I wish I'd had that, instead of the boredom of being cooped up all day.

[Withywindle]

130. I don't really know what that experience is like, honestly.

And I'm saying this as someone who went to a public school (poor, Appalachian, in the 70s and 80s) and thought it was fine. Mostly because I still got to pursue my own interests--by reading books under the desk in the classes that bored me!--and still got time autonomous from my parents.

My parents are awesome, smart, lefty people, but they couldn't have taught me Latin, like my favorite high school teacher did, and they couldn't have organized a marching band for me to be in (my favorite extracurricular group - all though jr. high and high school), and they certainly never would have voluntarily introduced me to my Pentecostal Holiness classmates who invited me to their church (Speaking in tongues! And once, yes, snakes!) and showed me real experiences I never would've had otherwise. (My parents, though atheists, were open-minded enough to drop me off at the church and pick me up afterwards.) These are things that would have just never occurred to my family. And I wouldn't trade them for anything. I've hooked up with a lot of these kids I thought I had nothing in common with on Facebook 30 years later and...whaddaya know? They're pretty cool people, after all.

[KittyWampus]

39. You are a small-minded, uninformed and sad piece of work. Your anecdotal evidence

is anecdotal.

[Maru Kitteh]

101. What do you care? You hate kids.

[KittyWampus]

148. Sure, that's why i worked untold hours for almost no money to make children's theater costumes

Because I hate kids.

What an odd thing to say for no reason.

[JI7]

44. Parents can homeschool and have their kids learn things that schools wont teach

from things like poverty, taking them to different parts of the country. they will see differences in rich/poor. take them to other countries also. learn different languages.

it's not homeschooling itself but what they teach. the same goes for right wing private school. these parents are usually ones who don't want their kids to learn science and be exposed to the reality of our world.

but one can teach them by exposing them to what is out there.

[JCMach1]

49. My whacked fundy cousin homeschools their quiverfull of angels

though daddy is a PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER!!!


:wtf:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. How sad. nt

[JCMach1]

84. Really sad, she used to be a liberal until she found

Jesus... Unfortunately, she found him in a BAD place.

[csziggy]

52. Some of the best volunteers for the Obama campaign were homeschooled kids

Their Mom brought them in one afternoon a week to work on the campaign. The oldest girl was great - when Palin was nominated, she fielded a phone call and cogently discussed every reason the Palin nomination was NOT a good thing for women nationwide. Those kids were hard working, but independent thinkers and lots of fun to have around.

My little sister home schooled her kids until they reached the age they wanted to attend regular schools for social reasons. They are all smart, independent thinkers, too.

On the other hand, My husband's little sister home schooled her kids to fit her fundie husband's views. Those kids are pretty strange. They are not allowed out on their own ever, even to play with other kids in their neighborhood. The family has one email account which is only read by the father. The father listens in to every phone call (he's retired military and spends most of his time at the family "enclave"). The oldest boy had a total meltdown at his home school "graduation" ceremony and had to be hospitalized for a while. The last conversation I had with him was when he was bragging about his kills in that weird Christian video game which encouraged killing non-believers. It surprised the hell out of me since his father has always been against video games. I worry some day he will have another meltdown and carry out that fantasy of killing non-Christians in real life.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

63. cziggy - let me see if I can explain myself here

You mentioned that you worry Christians will be killed. Well, here are my concerns:

1) When you say you're concerned that Christians will be killed here, are you referring to some experience Americans have had where Christians have been killed? Care to provide an example? In fact, it's Christians that did the killing in the U.S., from what happened in Cotton Mather's time to the lynchings done by Baptists in the Old South. I don't know where you get such reverse ideas about Christians being in danger, when history shows it's quite the other way around and people have been in danger of Christians.

2) In case you want to see the Christians as innocent, Christians (as a whole and as a voting and organizing group) in the U.S. have brought the U.S. some incredibly horrible and evil things. For example, Christians IN GENERAL (I'm not talking about the exceptions, since they're exceptions, and that's why they're called exceptions). Christians IN GENERAL, accept or adore the death penalty, accept or adore war, are in favor of right wing extremist ideology and have some sort of sick ideology that the homeless, the poor, the helpless, the unfortunate, somehow brought it on themselves for not being Christian enough. I find that sick, perverse, f****d up, and evil.

3) There is such a thing as separation of church and state, and Christians know this, but for some sick reason they've been riding the right wing extremist wave of attempting to make the separation of church and state line disappear.

4) On a tandem with separation of church and state, Christians have been trying to shove their ideologies on me by trying to turn them into legislation. For example, legislation that will not allow me to control my very own body.

Anyhow, there you are in a nutshell about Christians.

[csziggy]

85. No, I am worried that fringe group Christians will go out an kill more

Of those they consider too "liberal" or "different" - as has already happened. The video game that I was referring to was a first person shooter from a Christian crusader point of view set in current or near future times. The Christians had to go out and kill those who did not believe as they did. I don't remember the name of the game but it was around two or three years ago.

As a non-Christian (agnostic) I worry about the fringe type Christians, especially when it is a young man who I know has already had one mental collapse and has never had better than a tenuous understanding of the modern world due to his upbringing.

I distrust Christians (and any religious person) who insists on making a point about their religion. I do not drag my beliefs into every discussion, but these days it seems many Christians want to shove it in my face.

Sarah, I guess you have not seen my posts about my sister-in-law from before. She was raised Unitarian and got sucked into Campus Crusade for Christ in college. She met her husband when the CCC had an event that invited the military version. He is very domineering - he will not even let his wife have a private conversation with her own mother, sister or brothers. He monitors every moment of his family's lives. When the kids were younger, I gave them books for presents. I selected lots of books on science, paleontology, and on a wide selection of various cultures, especially those with other religious points of view. The father makes sure I am never alone with any of his children, particularly the girls.

Since Mr. Csziggy and I have been happily married without the dubious benefit of a church ceremony or any clergy, I suspect he regards us as living in sin the same way my fundie preacher uncle did. I love poking at the man - I call my marriage a civil union since all we had was a civil ceremony.

The last few years I have managed to not be in the same town as that part of the family. I just don't have the energy to deal with their delusions.

[Meldread]

89. What do you propose doing?

I've heard of the video game. I believe it was called Left Behind: Eternal Forces. It was loosely based upon the popular Left Behind books, which to get into a discussion about would draw us off topic. However, I'm sure we'll both be in agreement about how freakin' scary and crazy these people are so it's moot. I'm also an agnostic / atheist. (Also, my sister was married in a civil ceremony like you!)

I don't deny that these fundies are a problem, and what they're doing to their children is sickening.

However, what I don't understand is what anyone is proposing to do about it. Short of taking away their kids, kicking down the door, and searching for Bibles... there isn't much we can do. I wouldn't support that action, because despite how sick, crazy, and problematic these people are I still support religious freedom. Unfortunately, living in a free society means we have to deal with some religious freaks. It's still better than the alternative.

[csziggy]

131. Like any other crazy that has not proven dangerous - keep an eye on them

That is all we can do until/unless they do something. The guy that shot up the church because he was tired of liberals, the guy that shot Dr. Tiller - those are definitely dangerous. But unfortunately, the warning signs can be hard to see or are ignored - like Dr. Hassan.

You're right about the game. I just have had a lot of things happen in my life since it came out to remember the name.

As far as what can be done for the kids, I don't know. Maybe it would be a good idea to have one class a year for a couple of weeks that all children are required to take, home schooled or not. I don't have kids and don't know what is taught these days in the public school system, but there should be some way to evaluate the indoctrination that kids out of the public school system are subject to.

[Meldread]

156. What classifies as indoctrination?

This is where we get into dangerous waters, and become exactly like the people we're fighting against. The types of people you mentioned could come from anywhere, not just crazy fundi households. Will there be crazy homegrown Christian terrorists? Yes. That's just a fact of life. Yet, let's put things in prospective without falling into a perpetual state of fear.

You're more likely to die in a car crash than from a terrorist attack, Muslim, Christian, or otherwise. You're more likely to be struck by lightning twice. You're more likely to be killed by a shark. This is just the beginning of the list of bad things that can happen.

Are we going to outlaw cars because they are dangerous to us and our society? Are we going to reduce the speed limit by ten miles per hour? Doing such would save thousands of lives each year. Are we going to have a break down and panic when there is a thunderstorm? Are we never going to go swimming in the ocean?

You should be far more afraid of all of the above than a terrorist attack. Each of those things are more dangerous to your continued existence. Bad things happen, people die, that's life. You can't protect people from life. Likewise, you can't protect people from a crazy person who wants to do bad things.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

227. That sounds awesome! You two sound like a beautiful couple.

Me, I'm terrified of the damage Christians as a group have done to this country, and what more damage they're capable of inflicting upon it.

These people are nuts and scare me.

[sense]

123. My oldest boy volunteered on the Obama campaign too!

[Odin2005]

56. Oh great, more anti-homeschool BS.

There are plenty of progressive homeschoolers. If I ever have kids I am homeschooling them, mainly because I have absolutely horrible experiences in school and do not want my kids to be traumatized by bullies, emotionally abusive teachers, and a educational system that crushes independent thought and the human spirit in the name of training compliant corporate drones.

[vadawg]

144. first time i have ever agreed with you on DU, but bravo for getting it right

[Meldread]

57. To be frank, that's completely stupid.

I graduated from a home school. I started out in private school from pre-K to the first half of second grade. Then completed the second half of second grade through the first half of 11th grade in public school.

I *ASKED* (well begged is perhaps the better way to put it - then refused to return to school) to be home schooled. I graduated several months before my peers, and the home school required me to retake some of my previous classes.

Why did I want to leave public school? Because to be frank, it was shit. At the time they were turning the place into a prison, literally, and there was at least one bomb threat per week. Teachers were so focused on getting us to pass government tests to continue getting funding that we were learning about things that had nothing to do with the class we were taking, but instead was preparing us for the tests. It was hell, it was difficult to learn, and as a result I was doing poorly.

Demanding that I be home schooled was the best choice I made for my grade school education. Not only did I perform better (in large part because I could actually focus on learning) but I graduated sooner.

My experience with public education is so bad, if I ever had a child I would never send them to public schools. Never. I'd much prefer them to attend some type of school for the socialization factor, but if that wasn't an option I'd establish some mini-home school thing with local families. I'd pay for that rather than send them to a public school.

Also, home school isn't so different from my public school education. You're given a book, told to read it, then given a test or essay to write regarding what you've learned. You then send that test or essay in to the home schooling program which grades and returns it to you. That was more-or-less what all my teachers were doing anyway, the only disadvantage I had in that area is the ability to ask a teacher a question and have it answered.

There are certainly criticisms that could be leveled at that method of learning, but those same criticisms would apply to public education (at least my entire experience with it) as well.

[Odin2005]

64. Criticicisms of homeschools are based on ignorance and/or ideology.

The ideology being that public schools exist to "train dutiful, loyal citizens", they want mindless drones, not free-thinking individuals.

[Arugula Latte]

66. Oh, please. Like ALL public schools are bad just because you had a bad experience.

My kids are having a great experience, and there are plenty of wonderful public schools and public school teachers. I think it's sad you degrade all public schools because of ONE bad school.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

70. Yep, exactly. Although I must say that right wingnuts have done their utmost best to

attempt to destroy public schools.

I love public schools, and hopefully we can nuke all right wingnuts that even think of coming near them again to destroy them.
:nuke:

[Meldread]

72. Then aren't you undermining your own goals?

If you don't want religious wingnuts trying to impose their beliefs on the public education system, doesn't it make more sense to ENCOURAGE them to home school their little sperm blossoms?

You act as if these children aren't going to return home in the evening, aren't going to attend their church, and aren't going to be indoctrinated by their parents one way or another.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

75. Not at all. Repukes have been pushing the idea of homeschool in the same way

they have been denying funds to public schools and for the same end: to slowly chip away at public schools so they are less and less adequate each year, and eventually disappear.

An uneducated population is a slave population.

Further, let's imagine a nasty little world where there are no more schools, only homeschooling - who's going to do the homeschooling? I'm curious.

Additionally, who homeschooled you, and who decided who would be the person that would homeschool you?

[Meldread]

81. That only works depending on how public schools are funded.

If it is based upon student numbers, then it could be argued that what the fundies are doing is irrelevant: their children are not a drain on the public education system because they don't use it.

However, in most cases the taxes that fund public schools are collected from everyone. It doesn't matter whether or not you have children, or if your children attend public schools. If your children are home schooled or attend a private school, you're still paying for public education. In effect, you're paying to educate your child twice.

I don't deny what the fundies are doing to their kids is bad, but what you suggest isn't going to solve the problem. It's only going to force fundie kids to go to school, and put their parents in positions of power to demand changes to the system. Furthermore, it isn't going to "save" their children, who will return home and still be indoctrinated by their parents.

The only way to deal with the issue you bring forth, is to mandate that no child shall be raised by their parents, that all children shall be raised by the state, in state run schools, and learn state mandated material. That is the only way to pry the little sperm blossoms from their parents effectively, unless you're going to go another route, and start kicking down doors and searching for Bibles.

The reality is these fundies are a minority group. It is sad for their children, who will be fucked up, but it is a side effect of living in a free society. The fundies only have the power they possess because they have a voice in one of the two major political parties of our country and the second is afraid to offend them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

219. Actually, I'm paying for your roads, but I don't use your roads.

How's that for unfair? I pay for LOTS and LOTS of things with my taxes that I never get to use.

So does everyone else.

If you got to have a checklist where you got to decide where your specific, particular taxes were going to go, this country would even be more hellish than it already is. And you'd be called a Republican. They want that sort of thing you know.

[Meldread]

242. Where did I call it "unfair"?

You're putting words into my mouth.

You said the fundi's were primarily homeschooling because they wanted to screw over the public education system. I pointed out that they had to fund it anyway; at least so long as they pay taxes. No where did I mention about it being fair or unfair.

While I do not like taxes as a general rule of thumb, I do support taxation for education. In fact, I believe that taxation should go to fund college education as well. However, I also support Charter and Voucher programs; because I believe parents should have a CHOICE about where they send their children to school. If the public school is awful, they should be able to send their child elsewhere.

Liberalism is about freedom of choice. The freedom to choose what to do with your body; the freedom to raise your children the way you see fit; the freedom to send them to the school of your choice.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

221. No, because in the one hand, they are raising mentally disturbed, isolationist abortion clinic ...

bombers.

On the other they are voting for people who have been step-by-step denying funds to public schools and dismantling and destroying them.

How does that help schools?

This country is the only country where its people shoot themselves in the foot and say it feels good.

In other countries, they're well aware that public schools are VITAL for a country to be educated and not a servile, feudalist society, like this one is turning into.

Since Repukes began the dismantling of public schools, around Raygun's time, our educational level has dropped to hell here. But instead of fighting the dismantlers of school, what do Americans do? They act like retards and tell you that it's okay, that they can homeschool.

Further, if the woman has to go work, what's going to happen with the kids when schools are totally trashed by the Repukes?

I tell you, maybe it's the American isolation, but intelligent decisions is something the American population is not famous for. They'll lie down and be stepped on nicely, and like it.

[Meldread]

243. And I'll ask again: What do you propose doing about it?

You obviously believe these people are unfit parents. Do you want to take their children away from them? Force them into some type of state based education system? (Assuming, of course, that the state based education system teaches what you want; not what someone else wants.)

If you aren't going to take their children away; are you going to kick down doors and search for bibles, and round up all the fundi parents to "reeducate" them?

Really, what are you proposing to be the solution? Even if you outlawed home schooling, and forced every single child to attend state run education centers, they'd still return home in the evening to learn from their radical fundi parents.

Furthermore, how many abortion clinic bombers were home schooled, and how many are products of the public education system? I'm willing to bet most of them went through the public education system.

[Meldread]

71. I never said they were ALL bad.

I'm fairly sure if you live in a rich and affluent school district they're at least as good as a private school. On the other hand, the fact that American school children do so poorly when compared to the rest of the world either says one of two things:

1. Americans breed stupid children.
2. The American school system sucks.

Which do you think is the cause?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

73. What it does say is that since Repugnicans have been in office...

they've been chipping away at public school funding and saving money to spend on their pals by joining many schools together in one monster-school.

We need to stop allowing Repukes to get into office.

Now, as to the socialization issue, that's a fact.

You might have turned out an exception, but not everyone will be an exception.

Kids need to learn how to speak to and get along with other humans who are not their parents.

[Meldread]

83. You're drawing your conclusion from an extremely tiny minority.

It's like saying every gay person is flamboyant, walks around with a limp wrist, talks with a lisp, and is an expert on fashion. That's what the media focuses on, and thus the stereotype is created.

The reality is that most children who are home schooled DO socialize with other children. The fact that you opened the thread with talking about how you attended an Orchestra made up of home schooled children undercuts the very point you're trying to make. That simple fact proves that at least some parents, perhaps even the majority of parents, are seeking to involve their children in activities with peers near or around their own age.

You're focusing on a bunch of crazy fundies, who make up a tiny minority of home schoolers, who don't allow their children to socialize with those on the outside, and claiming that to be the norm. You have no evidence to back up the claim, and your own experience with the home schooled orchestra undercuts that very assertion.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

220. I've seen homeschooled kids up close and personal, and as a whole....

they're denied, they're weird, they're even more isolated than the already-isolated American societ.

It is not a good thing at all.

[Luminous Animal]

239. So, how many home schoolers have you met?

My daughter's group had one hundred families in it. We often joined other secular home schooling groups for field trips making a community of about 400 families. When we combined events with home schooled students in a geographic area of about 20 miles, we'd have about 1000 families.

[Arugula Latte]

191. I live in a very middle class neighborhood.

There are kids on both ends of the spectrum at our school, but most are definitely NOT wealthy, and many receive subsidized lunches, etc. It's considered an urban school district (Portland, Ore.) The parents work hard to keep music, computers and the library programs going. Every year we scrape up just enough funds. Believe me, this is not at all equivalent to a private school. But the community is close-knit, we value public schools, and we fight for them. Our kids know that the parents care about them and work in partnership with the teachers and administration to give them good experiences.

[Arugula Latte]

192. Another thing -- this is the statement I was responding to:

"My experience with public education is so bad, if I ever had a child I would never send them to public schools. Never."

So you won't even consider investigating public schools if you had a kid. That is a broad brush statement, and it implies you think all public schools are bad.

[Meldread]

246. I don't think they're all bad.

I'm sure there are a few good public schools out there. After all, there are A LOT of schools. Certainly, my experience with public schooling was awful, and it has personally soured me to the point where if I had a child I wouldn't send them to one. However, this is not only based upon my personal experience, but on the belief that public education as a whole (with exceptions) is subpar when compared to other forms of schooling. ESPECIALLY if you have a gifted child.

All that being said, I do support funding for public education, even if I don't support the public schooling system. My support comes more in the form of support for Charter and Voucher programs. I believe every child needs and deserves an education, but just as important to me is choice.

I believe liberalism is fundamentally about freedom of choice. Whether it be freedom to choose what to do with or to your body; the freedom to choose who to have sex with; the freedom to raise your children as you see fit; all the way down to the freedom to choose what school your child is educated in. If the public school system in your area sucks, you should have the freedom to choose to send your child elsewhere to get an education.

[Maine-ah]

158. that is exactly what the OP is saying about homeschooling

she is degrading all homeschooler's because of her own experiences....

[Arugula Latte]

193. Right. I don't agree with that, either.

I do think a big chunk of homeschoolers are fundies learning that the Earth is 4,000 years old, but I do know that there is also a very different percentage that find homeschooling fits their needs for other reasons. My niece was homeschooled for a year and she is from a very progressive family, and that year worked well for them.

[GoneOffShore]

82. Public education like public transport

are "Great good spaces" where people can see others outside of their homogenous neighborhoods.

I have no patience for homeschoolers.

[sense]

124. I have no patience for bigotry.

[GoneOffShore]

189. And I have no patience for those who would destroy public education

And let's see -

Low post count, no profile - got it.

Buh - bye

[LeftyMom]

199. That's just silly.

My decision not to use the services of the public school system no more constitutes an attempt to destroy public education than my refusal to buy a Chevy Suburban constitutes an attack on General Motors.

Less even, because in this case I still pay for a service I'm not using.

[GoneOffShore]

211. Anyone who opts out of the public education system is chipping away at it.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

[LeftyMom]

244. No, I'm making what's known as an analogy.

My homeschooled eight year old would be delighted to explain the concept to you, if you like.

[rebecca_herman]

86. Homeschooling IS better for some kids

I had needs the public schools could NOT meet and there was not a suitable private school nearby. So I was homeschooled for a few years. I got a correspondance school degree and a college diploma. It was the right choice for me. The school environment was harming me and the school would not accomodate me in a way that met my needs.

I don't even want to know where my mental health would have gone if I had been forced to stay in that place if someone people here got their way and homeschooling was outlawed. You hear that? I probably would have been permanently harm if I had been kept in public school. School is NOT best for all kids homeschooling is the 100% RIGHT choice in many circumstances. I am grateful to my parents for doing what was best for me as an individual and not one size fits all! It was not about controlling what I learned or controlling me it was about taking me out of an environment that had proved to be extremely harmful to my health and well-being.

[kath]

90. DU's wonderful Ava was homeschooled - an AWESOME young woman, who is now thriving at NYU.

The ignorance here on this thread is astounding.

My kids were homeschooled - older is now thriving at a Top-20 university, younger has ACT and SATII scores in the top 1-2 percentile and is applying to some pretty high-powered colleges herself. They have plenty of friends and get along with others very well, thank you very much.
They both have a much better understanding of history, science, art, etc than their schooled friends, and have HUGH!1 vocabularies. Our house looks like a small library, with books everywhere. Our kids have been to more museums, zoos, science centers, historical sites, concerts, arts festivals, plays, dance performances, library story times, bookstores, etc. than 40 or 50 typical kids in this town put together.

[Odin2005]

167. It's the Nanny State ideology.

All parents are too incompetent to raise their own kids, apparently. :eyes:

[whatchamacallit]

93. It seems born of fear and loathing

Not a good way to cultivate a healthy world outlook.

[sense]

125. It seems that way to you, because

it's different and just like any other bigotry we fear what we do not know.

[LeftyMom]

94. My homeschooled kid is smart enought to know not to judge millions of people based on one outing.

I'm sorry your education didn't teach you that sort of open-minded approach to life, and I hope you manage to integrate it into your worldview as an adult, though I realize the odds are against that.

Best of luck to you.

[Dorian Gray]

136. +1

Good point.

It's stunning that someone would make such sweeping generalizations because of their perceptions of one outing.

[LeftyMom]

142. One outing in one area fairly well known for a higher than average fundie concentration no less.

In other parts of the country she might as easily conclude that homeschooling parents were mostly back-to-the-land granola sorts, or tidy suburban moms, or people who live in BFE and can't safely commute to the nearest school for much of the year, or tattooed radicals in tattered punk band t shirts (that'd be me :hi: ) because depending on where you are or what sort of social event you're at, that's just what parents look like.

I know I could draw totally different conclusions about who say, private school parents are depending on what one event I attended here in my town. This is why one self-selecting sample from one geographic area isn't representative of anything.

For that matter, if the OP knew much about homeschooling, she'd know that almost any area has at least two active homeschooling organizations, an inclusive one and an explicitly Christian one, which depending on the area can be either fairly ecumenical or demand detailed doctrinal statements for participation. My guess would be that if there were half so many obviously fundie families dressed up like the Little House in the Prarie re-enactment society as the OP would suggest, either the event was put on by the latter group or drew more heavily from it's membership than from the inclusive group.

The emphasis on sir-ing and ma'am-ing is just regional- Southerners tend to expect closer adherence to polite formalities than the rest of the country. (For example, my neighbor is from Louisiana and introduced herself to my son as Miss *her name* while people raised in California almost invariably ask him to address them by their first name.) It's just a regional thing, perhaps exaggerated a bit at a special event where kids were expected to be on their best behavior. The OP would probably have picked up on that if she hadn't walked in with a pre-conceived idea about meeting a bunch of proto-Duggars.

[Kaleva]

160. +1

[aroach]

255. Thank you!

Now I know why I keep coming back to DU. People like you.

My homeschool group would fall into your crunchy-granola mom category. I tease them that my kids are allowed to eat anything that doesn't have a skull and crossbones on the label. I've never heard anyone say sir or ma'am but I have to admit to dressing like a frump. I find jeans, sneakers, and a sweatshirt comfortable.

[Dorian Gray]

262. Interesting perspective

and information. I'm not a homeschooler, and I probably won't homeschool my children when I have them, but I find the whole topic very interesting.

[proteus_lives]

95. Bigotry on DU?

I'm shocked!

[Maru Kitteh]

99. That's exactly what was done to my DSD, who promtly went wild once released from her internment

and I use the word internment in the sense of a burial - which is what they meant to do to her. Bury her in reproductive slavery to the pope, bury her curious questioning nature and her ability to think for herself, bury any ambitions she may have beyond being a faithful baby machine and submissive wife.

It's been 4 years trying to undo the damage and she's done really well but she has a long way to go. She tried very hard but she couldn't hack it in college in part because of the enormous gaps in her piss-poor homeschool "education." She's been working on filling those gaps with hard work but it was humiliating for her. It made me so damn angry to see her suffering for her mother's ignorance.

Homeschooling should be illegal or at the very least, extremely tightly regulated. Their "teachers" should be required to hold a regular certification, just like they would in any real school.

[sense]

127. No, abuse is and should be illegal.

There will always be abusive people in every population, not just home schoolers.

[kitfalbo]

149. heh

Some states do require testing to show advancement in area's, Oregon for one.

[WolverineDG]

100. So what's your solution

to people who would refuse to send their kids to school? Round 'em all up & toss the kids into kiddie jail (aka foster care), just so they can "socialize?" :eyes:

Some "land of the free" that would be....

dg

[flvegan]

102. I can't believe that this shitty, broadbrush smear of a group

to which many DUers belong, is still up.

Hello, mods?

[The Straight Story]

126. if it involves christins or home schooling it is ok, repost using 'jewish', 'muslim'

and see how fast it gets locked.

[Azathoth]

109. Fundies misuse and pervert homeschooling, just as they do with everything else

The problem isn't the homeschooling. It's the fundamentalism.

[sense]

128. Exactly!

Extremism is bad in any form.

[smalll]

115. You know, you're right about "isolated" and "only permitted" - but I think this is a problem for ALL

kids these days -- they don't get to get up on their bikes through their neighborhood (without adult supervision) -- they're not allowed to wander through the woods on their own. And so they end up video-game-addicted, adderal-prescribed, ADHD screw ups who hit puberty and lose themselves in hard drugs and/or sex way too meaningless for their tender age.

[aikoaiko]

122. It sounds like you met kids eager to please you, behave well & be polite and you hated them for it.

Nice.

[KittyWampus]

176. that was the ugliest part of the OP for me. The first sentence. I LOVE watching kids perform.

[renate]

129. there are at least two types of home schoolers

One is the fundamentalist type, who don't want their kids to be contaminated by contact with the outside (read: non-Christian) world. I'm inclined to agree with you about those. It's sad, because if they ever want to venture out of that world, they aren't equipped with anything approaching the proper social skills.

I also know friends who are of the other type--they home-school their kids because of special needs that, for budgetary or other reasons, weren't properly addressed in public school. I think a home-schooling education can be wonderful--very focused on each kid's needs and each kid's interests and talents. It's a LOT of work and I truly respect the parents who do it well. It is very hard.

Few things in this world are black and white. I think home schooling is one of those things that come in all shades of gray.

[Dorian Gray]

132. Not all homeschoolers are whacko

right wing Christians. There are plenty of liberal homeschoolers.

How was the music?

[pampango]

150. I know two liberal families who bought houses in a big city with bad schools.

They don't want to send their children to private schools, not sure if it's for philosophical or financial reasons or to the public schools, so they home school their children. They tell me they would rather have their children grow up being home schooled but playing with the other children in their very modest income neighborhood than living in an all-white suburb and attending public school.

[Dorian Gray]

259. I could see that

where I live in Brooklyn (Prospect Heights)... it is a wonderful neighborhood with some fantastic private schools in neighboring Park Slope. But they are $18,000 + a year. The public schools that my children (future children) will go to based upon my zip code are not that great. Park Slope has some wonderful public schools, but Prospect Heights? Not so much. We probably will choose to go the Catholic School Route (that's more reasonably priced at $5,000-$7,000 per year). Or we'd have to be creative in our options. I am not comfortable with home schooling, but that's my choice. It's a lot of work to do it right, and I'd rather send my children to school for many personal reasons. But, that doesn't mean that I think homeschooling is wrong or stupid. It takes great dedication by the parents and the chidlren (if they are going to do it right!). And I certainly understand from the perspective of living in my neighborhood why other options are unappealing.

[whistler162]

137. ?????? Never home schooled

amd a lot of what you describe is me!!

Of course I started life in the back of a funeral home so that might have whacked me out a bit.

new math I guess 1 + 1 = 45

[CBGLuthier]

146. Isn't it a good thing we don''t have to raise everybody else's children

I know that is a hard concept for people to grasp but it works well for me. MYOFB when it comes to how people raise their kids. Obvious exceptions for abuse and NO home schooling does not equal abuse no matter what you think.

[Rebubula]

154. LOLZ

I LOVE seeing such broad brush stereotypes on DU.

Luckily, your myopic and biased opinion does not preclude the reality of millions of kids that are home schooled and turn out to be well behaved, polite and sociable adults.

Sometimes the posts here sadden me. Ignorance and bigotry are not limited to Free Republic...but they should not be here.


ON EDIT - Obviously you went to this production with this scathing post already in mind. Open mind??? Not on this OP.

[spinbaby]

155. Hey, I home schooled!

I'd appreciate not being lumped in with the whackos. My son, BTW, went on to graduate with honors from Penn State with a degree in computer engineering.

[superduperfarleft]

164. I was homeschooled by my atheist parents who both had PhDs.

The school where I lived was nothing but a gladiator academy where seventh-graders were carrying guns and someone was taken out in handcuffs everyday. One of the little punks even set off a bomb on the back of a school bus one day. If I'd stayed, I would've joined a skinhead gang to protect me from the daily beatings, or I would've become a thug myself, and probably would've never finished high school. I went from having pretty much a 0.0 GPA at that school to graduating high school with a 3.7 after I finally re-entered the public school system.

So you fail.

[Maat]

290. My hubby and I each have doctorates ...

and we've been homeschooling our kid for three years now, and she's gone from being a relatively poor student to being a high-achiever. I feel sorry for the OP - her bias is hurting her, not us. Everyone who knows Beloved Daughter (13) loves to be around her; we go through a public charter school, the school district being the entity that started the school and which has maintained it, so, technically, we homestudy. It's been a fantastic experience for all of us.

[noamnety]

171. I'm not sure there is a wide enough brush for your posts in this thread.

There are healthy well adjusted home schooled kids.
There are healthy well adjusted private schooled kids.
There are healthy well adjusted public school kids.

There are homeschooled kids who are bullied by their parents.
There are public school kids who are bullied by their teachers, or by their peers.


Believe it or not, there are some adults who turn kids into outcasts by looking at them, making a snap judgment that they are "weird" and are "sickened" by looking at kids they don't even know. Maybe you know someone like that. ;)

Perhaps those are the kinds of adults homeschoolers are sometimes looking to avoid.

[ipfilter]

182. I started homeschooling when I was half way through 9th grade.

I did it precisely to get away from the "social" aspects of school. I was given the choice by my parents and chose home study. There were no religious reasons underlying my decision. I was more interested in learning and less inclined to spend every day doing homeroom, band, assemblies, grading my peers papers, spending about 10 minutes in each class doing actual work, and then going home loaded down with a nights worth of homework that could have been done in class...if not for all the social events. I studied in the morning and attended an electronics class at Vo-Tech in the afternoon. When I was 17 I joined the Navy and had more electronics training and gained a lifetime of social experience. When my high school class was worrying about prom dates I was at sea on the USS Independence and traveling to Hawaii.

I don't consider myself weird or socially awkward. I am an introvert but I'm just wired that way and it has nothing to do with my years of home study. If anything, all the awkwardness of high school might have made me more of an introvert. I'm pretty certain I would have ended up with the wrong crowd.

I have known several fundie type families who home school and their kids are certainly socially awkward and live in a bubble. They would have been that way if they home schooled or not. However, not all home schooling fits this mold. Not everyone who schools at home has a mom who wears denim skirts and frumpy socks. That's the stereotypical view of home schoolers, but it's not always the case.

[guitar man]

204. The Homeschool Orchestra

Thanks, I'm going to tuck that into my file of "possible names for my next band" :D

:hi:

[KamaAina]

208. Somehow Ava turned out all right

she made it to DU, then to NYU.

Don't know about her music skills, but she's a dynamite filmmaker:

http://www.iraqfallout.com

[we can do it]

210. Me Too - Wackjobs Afraid Their Kids Might Not Agree With Their Hokey Religion

[grantcart]

252. Cliffordu was homeschooled - now if that doesn't close the debate about HS I don't know what will

[cliffordu]

253. No math or history, but I can field strip a Brandt mle 27/31 in my sleep.

and I can kick your skinny ass all over the mall, sparky....

[aroach]

254. Too quiet? LOL

Kids that are too quiet. MUCH too quiet. Kids that say, "Yes ma'am, yes sir, yes ma'am" and you know it's been drilled into them perhaps through punishment? You know kids like those? Well, if you don't, go visit a place where there's a homeschool outing and you'll see them.

I'm too tired to have this ridiculous debate again and I wonder why I even keep coming to DU when I see posts like this.

I am a very liberal radical atheist homeschooler and almost every family in our local homeschool group is also liberal and most of them are atheists. You know, the homeschool group where we all go to be unsociable and isolate ourselves. That one?

Anyway, I wish that my kids would just once be accused of being too quiet. Or too obedient. Or too polite.

[earth mom]

258. You are painting with a broad brush. Not all homeschooling families are fundies.

Fundies have given homeschooling a bad name, true, but to lump everyone in with them is wrong. :thumbsdown:

[mzteris]

274. You have absolutely NO idea

what you're talking about.

How many homeschool children/families do you KNOW, personally? Where do you live? What kind of interactions have you had - up close and personal - with homeschool children/familes? Every day? How many hours? What types of settings? And - honestly now - how much with "PS" kids?

I'm not really going to waste my time/breath with you because you seem to be one of those people who make decisions based on extremely limited information. In other words - YOU ARE PREJUDICED.

When you have had the experience of KNOWING and interacting on a daily basis with dozens of hs'ers - when you have talked on line for years with HUNDREDS - (probably thousands) of hs families from every state in the Union not to mention other countries as well - then - MAYBE then - you MIGHT get to have some sort of (informed) opinion on the subject.

Your preconceptions and your "arguments" are laughable. You don't know what hs families "do". You have no concept of what a "typical" hs'er is like - because guess what? There is no "typical hs'er" - it's custom designed program for INDIVIDUALS! Not a cookie-cutter-treat-every-child-the-same-type of environnment.

My son who was hs'ed? You better believe he had more socialization with more diverse people than he ever received while in "public school". (Up until he went back last year to an "alternative PS highschool" where every student is "quirky.) Does he parrot my every idea? Now THAT is hysterically funny.

Are there fundies? Are there crappy hs'er? Sure. Are there fundie PUBLIC SCHOOL teachers who tell their students things like "your father's going to hell because he's gay" - as happened to my daughter. Are there crappy ps teachers, too? You bet your ass there are! (are they all crappy. Hell no! I'm am NOT anti-ps regardless of what some people think.)

REAL WORLD experiences - that what most hs'ers have. Not the artificial setting of most "classrooms". (Leftymom already addressed this point.)

BTW - there is one other piece of information that most of you who believe some of the hs'ers you know are "weird". Well, yeah - they are. And guess what? That's one of the MAIN REASONS that some people CHOOSE to homeschool their child. Because their kid is "different". They're Aspie, or have OCD, or Tourette's or they're autistic, physically disabled. They're "quirky". They have anxiety disorders or social phobias. They suffer from severe distractibility, they're ADD or ADHD. They have learning differences. Differences that aren't even recognized - much less understood and/or accommodated - by the teachers/ps system. Or - as is the case in many Many MANY cases - they're so damn smart that sitting in a PS is excrutiatingly AGONIZING. And as is most frequently the case - a combination of all of the above issues listed.


To those reading this thread (not you, your minds MADE UP!!! definitely NOT a hs'er trait. lol) - come over to the DU Homeschooling Group - you will find intelligent and first hand information about the pros/cons of hs'ing. How it works. Why it works. How to do it. Support and information based on knowledge and not some knee-jerk spew by people who have absolutely no freaking idea what the hell they're talking about!

[Tim01]

284. Wow, pretty ignorant aren't you?

I am in the school system. And I have butted heads with the administration more than once, and brought the local government into it more than once, useless. And it is my experience in the public school system which makes me glad my kids are home schooled.
I wish I could save more kids from this system, but I can't.

I know good teachers who are quitting out of frustration. School is now more like prison or boot camp than it used to be.

Home schoolers learn to think, public school kids learn to obey.

[Maat]

291. Wow, my homeschooled daughter would certainly never show ...

this kind of incredible ignorance and bias!

Thank the Heavens YOU'RE not the one in charge of parents' options! Thank the Universe I don't have to deal with your tyrannical ideas (for, if you were in charge, you'd most likely mandate the conventional classroom)!

Beloved Daughter belongs to lots of clubs, and meets almost every day with her friends, and she's gone from being a relatively poor student in the conventional classroom to being a high-achiever in her homestudy program.

Once again, thank Heavens I can just ignore your nonsense from now on.

[Dappleganger]

292. DU is home for posts with sweeping generalizations, LOL.