I wonder if I still belong

[NJmaverick]

I wonder if I still belong in the progressive/liberal movement.

I believe in civil rights and fairness of all. I am especially concerned about the rights of minorities being abused by the majority.

I consider the GLBT movement the last civil rights movement and akin to the civil rights movement of the 60s

I feel that every American deserves a chance at a good eduction

I don't think corporations and the wealthy should be allow to buy our government (I want to see true finance reform)

I respect all religious beliefs including atheists and agnostics

I think the government should help to give the poor and underprivileged a chance

I don't think anyone should be without access to health care

I can't stand freepers and think the Republican party (especially how it stands now) is the biggest threat to our nation and our way of life

I think tolerance is important

However these days I wonder if I still belong to the movement. I am a loyal person by nature. So when I elect a President or congressional representation, I feel my role is to help and support them. I appreciate how hard we all worked to get where we are. I know that these elected officials are being targeted no stop by opposing politicians as well as freepers and other right wingnuts. I feel strongly that they need the help of those that got them into office. I also feel that we can't make too many demands on them until they develop the political capital to fulfill those demands. So while I have no problem disagreeing or pushing issues important to me, I appreciate that they represent everyone and not just me. I am also willing to be patient and give them time to get things done.

I here from so many in the movement how evil corporations are. I certainly don't like them using their wealth to gain an unfair advantage in our government or when they don't pay their fair share. However corporations employ many of my friends and family, so I don't want to see them gone. I have some mutual funds and a 401K so I was hurt by the Bush/GOP Stock Market crash (as was my family and friends). So I don't with corporations ill or harm. Rather I want to see them thrive in a constructive manner.


I constantly hear how awful and evil the DLC is. However I also remember the decline of the Democrats/Liberals in the 70s and 80s. I remember the horror of the Reagan years and how it looked like the Dems would never be able to stop the GOP. I remember Bill Clinton and the DLC bringing the Dems out of the wilderness. I remember the hatred Clinton engendered due to his ability to thwart their plans. So while many of the DLC are to the right of me, I wouldn't image considering them evil.

Finally I am not comfortable with all the venom and vitriol directed at the Blue Dogs. They were willing to be part of the party and help all of us defeat the Republicans. It seems like a betrayal to now attack them after they have served their purpose. That sort of thing just doesn't sit well with me.

So I find myself wondering where I belong. I don't consider myself a cheerleader or a rah-rah or water carrier. I don't think corporations are evil. I used to think freepers were stupid when they used the term RINO (and unfortunately find it just as bad when I hear the equivalent DINO). I think pragmatism is the most effective way to succeed, so obviously I don't consider it a bad thing. Finally I don't want to hurt or bring down the Democratic party for some third liberal party. So where does a pragmatic liberal find a place in today's very polarized world?

[varelse]

1. You're the only one who can decide where and with whom you belong

No matter what political movement you join, though, you will find that some views and some attitudes expressed by fellow members will make you uncomfortable.

[rateyes]

2. You belong to the progressive movement.

Too bad our leadership doesn't give a shit about progressives.


And, to hell with Blue Dogs.

[NJmaverick]

5. See I don't believe they don't give a shit. I have seen what happens to politians that take stands

that the public at large considers "too liberal" and how many a fine career has been ended over it. I also believe in American politics it starts and ends with the economy. Deliver a strong economy and the prize is to dictate social issues. So I am far more willing to cut my leaders some slack. Finally it's funny how you use the term "leader". The way many talk here, a better term would be follower.

[rateyes]

9. I'm still inclined to say

that they don't give a shit. They take progressive for granted. I'm tired of being taken for granted.


No more.

[sendero]

26. Nothing Obama is doing..

.. is going to "deliver a strong economy". In fact,for all of Obama's failures, that is the one that will cost him his office in 2012.

I was totally with your post up until you start defending the blue dogs. Why don't you defend Lieberman also, I mean he's just a good guy trying to do a difficult job :sarcasm:

[NJmaverick]

30. "nothing" the stimulus his jobs bill he is working on now? Nothing?

I am glad you were totally with me. I like to have reasoned and balanced people who don't lose all credibility by adding all sorts of hyperbole in their posts.:sarcasm:

[dionysus]

89. you can't convince the jaded, no matter how hard you try. it's pointless...

[bigtree]

3. you're one fricking person with one fricking set of opinions

The best you can do is to convince a majority to think and act like you would and help elect a like-minded majority and get them to act on your ideas. It gets tough, but that's the system. Your responsibility to vigilance doesn't end with your vote, and politicians only deserve as much support as they are willing to stand up for what they promised when they were trolling for your vote.

[NJmaverick]

10. I feel like I don't belong. It's more than DU. It's Huffington, and to a lesser degree Daily Kos

it's so many of the other bloggers and publications who's articles are posted here. I feel they don't share my core values.

[bigtree]

11. that's the challenge

. . . and opportunity of advocacy.

[marmar]

4. "I consider the GLBT movement the last civil rights movement"

It's the current one.....but it won't be the last. There will always be a civil rights struggle for someone.

[NJmaverick]

6. That is possible and I considered that when I wrote it

I just don't know what the next one that is so clear cut will come along or what it will be.

[tekisui]

62. Undocumented immigrants are invisible to the Constitution.

And children have only a tiny version of it.

[Number23]

111. "There will always be a civil rights struggle for someone." ABSOLUTELY.

[UTUSN]

7. K&R to attempt to undo the rude UnReKKKs, but there're apparently more than one n/t

[msongs]

8. for the most part the dems are NOT progressive/liberal, especially our elected reps nt

[NJmaverick]

12. Hasn't almost every liberal accomplishment in this nation (there are many)

come from the Dems?

[gratuitous]

13. It's probably everyone jealous of your intellectual honesty

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7202844

Or maybe it's something else. Can't quite put my finger on what it might be . . .

[NJmaverick]

23. I guess you are trying to hijack the thread and make it about ID or IH

It reminds me of another point. For years I blasted the Right wingers for their constant use of intellectually dishonest tactics. Now I see those same tactics used here and worse used against Democrats. How can I condone what I have sincerely felt is wrong. How can I look the other way when posts like this are made? Is there really any comfort in telling me self it's OK because the person doing it is a liberal?

[gratuitous]

35. No, I'm not trying to "hijack the thread"

But if you're feeling all pouty and put upon, I gave you a prime example. You jumped into the linked thread really early, thundering about "intellectual dishonesty," and when it was proven to you from excerpts of President Obama's speech that part of the reason for the surge in Afghanistan was to defeat al Qaeda, you disappeared. As long as no one challenged you directly, you were pretty haughty and abusive (see your posts in that thread number 7, 8 and 17). But when eomer and I provided direct citations, you vanished.

I don't know what you consider to be "intellectually dishonest tricks," but I'd like to hear and read your explanation for your incredibly trollish behavior in that thread. I'm less interested in your pouty rationalizations in this thread.

[NJmaverick]

40. While you deny it, you just want to talk about a totally different topic

which is the very definition of hijacking a thread. How is that for intellectual honesty?


Oh and I don't know what you are talking about, but there are times when I see people are so unwilling to listen or concede the facts and what is glaringly obvious, that I give up (I don't have that much time to waste)

[gratuitous]

106. You don't know what I'm talking about?

Do you have short term memory loss? All you had to do was click on the link I provided: You claimed that Jim Hightower's opinion piece quoted in that post was "intellectually dishonest" because Hightower said that one of the proffered justifications for the escalation in Afghanistan was the elimination of al Qaeda. You were condescending and abusive toward the person who posted the article, but when another member and I demonstrated that President Obama had indeed used the elimination of al Qaeda as one of the rationales for the escalation in his speech at West Point, you didn't answer. You posted afterwards in the thread with more snide comments about intellectual honesty, so you had the opportunity to educate yourself, yet refused to acknowledge that on the facts, you were completely wrong.

Back to the original topic of your post, bringing the "hijacking" full circle: Your original post here is full of self-pitying whining that doesn't merit a reasonable response from others who are familiar with your posting history, particularly in the thread I linked to. When you claim to believe in "fairness" or "tolerance" yet can't be bothered to "waste" your oh-so-valuable time explaining your objectively unfair and intolerant posts, then no, you don't belong on a message board that depends on the honest give-and-take between its members. And when a glaringly obvious fact counter to what you were thundering about is brought to your attention, you too are unwilling to listen to or concede that fact.

You would be much more comfortable, I think, at NJmaverick Underground where you set the rules of engagement, are the sole arbiter of what's "fair" or what's "tolerant," and then you can ban anyone who brings facts that you don't want to recognize to the table. It appears you'd be very comfortable in the company of not particularly advanced six-year-olds.

[whatchamacallit]

14. No you don't

have a nice day.

[winyanstaz]

15. K & R...but it didnt move the number....:(

[demosincebirth]

16. I used to call myself a liberal for years, but after reading

all the crap on DU, the last six or seven months about how Obama isn't doing this and is doing that...I don't like him because of this and that. Many so-called liberals/progressives here, sound like a bunch of spoiled seven years old who are stomping and caring on because they didn't get what they wanted for Christmas. For God's sake, the man has only been in office for only 1 year. As far a Iraq and Afghanistan, he is doing exactly what he said he was going to do during the campaign. If you want progress stick with the man. If you want miracles, sorry, you gotta talk to the Man up stairs.

[freddie mertz]

44. "Health Care is not a Pony." nt.

[NJmaverick]

70. Considering that 7 President have failed to make it happen

maybe the Taj Mahal would be a better analogy.

[demosincebirth]

110. Really?

[StarfarerBill]

17. Pragmatism can work only when dealing with an equally-pragmatic opponent.

Whether in the majority or the minority, the Republicans have the discipline, the arrogance, the ruthlessness to serve their corporate masters with a single-minded devotion. The New Democrats thought they could bargain with such a mindset; more and more, they're realizing that they are only being taken advantage of, and that no amount of negotiation and surrender of principles will appease it.

After the long, dark night that's coming, perhaps the Democratic Party will allow the progressives to lead once more and meet the Right with the strength of their compassion and resolve, not with "bipartisanship".

[NJmaverick]

21. Pragmatism is the ultimately adaptable position

So it works under any condition. Whatever a pragmatist is faced with, they adapt improvise and overcome.

[StarfarerBill]

84. As it has in this case? No, just no.

[Tailormyst]

18. It's hard to admit when a party you are invested in lets you down

It seems to me that you have the same goals as many here, but you are still in the "hope" stage. You are still hoping there is some plan we don't know about and that our Dems in DC will surprise us with a hail mary pass at the last minute. Other folks here have stopped hoping as a light is shone on the goings on in DC. Instead of focusing on the differences why not take that wall down, stop the fighting, and focus on the issues that are important to you. Not the politicians that are important to you, but the issues you obviously care deeply about.

Just my two cents, for what its worth.

[NJmaverick]

22. I know what Washington was an is like. I really wasn't expecting miracles

so I am not disappointed. They are moving in the right direction and that is the best I could hope for (all things considered).

[Tailormyst]

29. I guess what I was trying to say was:

Focus on the things you have in common with everyone here rather then the things that you don't. It looks like you agree on the goal but disagree on how to get to that goal. Anyway,I hope you have a happy holiday!

[NJmaverick]

77. I wish you happy holidays as well.

I don't mind differences. I do have an issue with the term evil being tossed about way to freely and the idea that not all Democrats are welcomed here.

[Dark]

19. You belong, but there's a lot of anger about how the dems are so weak on

hcr. And I don't blame them.

I'm like you, I'm prolly to the right of everyone here. But even I am frustrated with the dems today.

I think a lot of people are just frustrated with the dems reluctance to use all their tools to pass reform.

[Kaleva]

20. k & r'd

[MadHound]

24. Oh good grief, stop it with the whole pitiful Pauline routine

First of all, I doubt that you were ever part of the progressive/liberal movement. You are much too centerist. You are nothing more, and nothing less than a Democrat, for all that implies. So stop with this shit, you're just trying to bash the progressives (again) albeit in a backhanded manner.

So to answer your question, no, you don't still belong, you never did.

[NJmaverick]

33. I guess you are part of the liberal purity police and you are giving me the message

I failed your test and I don't belong. So be it, I'll take that under advisement.

[MadHound]

69. Whoomp, there it is

That's why I can't take you or your maudalin musings seriously. Anybody says something that you don't like, you start throwing labels at them, like "purity police" or such. You do this day in and day out around here, and frankly it's getting rather tiresome. Now you want us to feel sympathy or empathy for you, no, sorry, not after the way you have slammed liberals and progressives.

It isn't a matter of purity, it is a matter of observation. You have made yourself well known around here for being part of the bully boy brigade. Same something, anything against Obama or the Democrats and here you come, wading into the discussion, slamming people for "wanting ponies" and such. And now you're crying into your beer about not belonging to the liberal/progressive movement, guess what, you never were part of it.

Take your pity party, and your backhanded slam against liberals/progressives and go back where you belong, square in the middle of the Democratic, DLC, centerist mob, the one that is selling this country out to corporate America. It suits you so much better.

[NJmaverick]

73. Maybe I misunderstood your first post. To me you sounded like you were telling me how to think

and what I should believe. It felt to me like you were saying do things my way or leave.

[MadHound]

79. You can do things whatever way you want,

What I'm trying to tell you is that I see through this sham of an OP of yours. You are not, and have never been part of the liberal/progressive movement, despite your protestations otherwise. You have demonstrated that quite well by your ongoing slamming of the progressive/liberal movement. Now you try and come sniffling around that you don't know that you if can be part of it, or whether the progressive movement actually wants you anymore, let me put this bluntly for you. No, liberals don't want you, and you should never, ever become part of that movement unless you have a serious change of heart and attitude. This isn't meant to be rude, but the simple fact of the matter is that you don't belong because you berate and belittle the liberal/progressive movement on almost a daily basis (do I really need to do a search and provide some links?).

You need to stay where you belong, in the centerist, DLC, corporate wing of the party, where you are comfortable. Don't try doing otherwise, don't try this stupid pity party, it is nothing more than a backhanded slap against liberals/progressives ("oh woe is me," you're saying, "I am persecuted by liberals/progressives and am getting kicked out because I am soooo loyal. I really want to belong, but I don't think I can bear this burden anymore. Oh woe is me.":eyes:)

Is that clear enough for you? Do things whatever way you want, but stop trying to claim that you're something that you are clearly not.

[rusty fender]

91. Exactly!

Buh-bye, NJMaverick. Hey, there's someone else who is all mavericky and stuff, someone you might be more comfortable with--her initials are SP.

[Jax]

109. Great post, even when this one was 'nomad1776'

it was bully boy crap posts. Still is. Nothing liberal or progressive.

"Take your pity party, and your backhanded slam against liberals/progressives and go back where you belong,

square in the middle of the Democratic, DLC, centerist mob, the one that is selling this country out to corporate America. It suits you so much better."



Bingo, you nailed this one squarely to the corporate sell out wall.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

25. This sounds like your biggest problem "I am a loyal person by nature." You have no obligation

to be loyal to politicians, they have to be loyal to their electorate. ACTIONS Speak louder than WORDS.

You don't know these people personally, nor really know what their agenda is. A public persona is just that, a facade. Sometimes there are good ones, but I believe the majority are corruptible. I have what I thought was a great progressive Congressman. His seat was in jeopardy and Rahm gave him a hand. He is now voting against Progressive and Liberals and the American people's best interests in order to keep his job. It is incredibly disappointing, but I'm too old and experienced to be surprised.

[NJmaverick]

34. I feel I do. I vote you in office against the Republicans I will stand by you

only a major scandal or a complete 180 on the platform you ran on would make me abandon them or worse go after them.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

65. You will stand by someone who works against your best interests? That is enabling. I'm so sorry

that you're a "team member", right or wrong.

[NJmaverick]

67. Is there a difference between not fully working for

and working against? To me there is, the GOP works against our best interst, while the Dems don't always fully work for our interests (sometime it's their fault sometimes they don't have a choice).

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

95. To me there is no difference if the result is the same (which it is meant to be in our "two party"

system). The only difference is that some Democrats tend to be gentler in their approach in regard to the people, but their corporate sponsors win out all the time.

[chimpymustgo]

27. You say you are loyal: are you more loyal to your beliefs or a political party?

That should help you resolve your dilemma.

I fight for issues, and stand with the people who fight for them as well. The Democrats are not fighting for my issues anymore.

[NJmaverick]

32. I am loyal to my principles and beliefs first. Then I am loyal to my friends,, family, organization

I belong to and my Country. There was a time when I was young that I would hold that the only thing that mattered was my political beliefs. Then I took classes on ethics, and I learned about the real world and the nature of politics. I learned that in these arenas if one wants to affect any sort of real change you have to be flexible enough to compromise and prioritize and see what is and isn't possible (at that point in time with those current conditions).

[chimpymustgo]

43. NJ, we all understand compromise. An CAVING. And not doing anything to keep

promises and support a progressive agenda.

Would you be loyal to a spouse who abused you?

[NJmaverick]

49. To be perfectly honest and frank, I don't think many of you do fully understand

compromise. Look at the senate. As much as I can't stand Joe Liberman, I know the Dems need to work with him. As much as I would love to see him stripped of all his power and tossed to the curb, I know we need his 60th vote. I think it takes a maturity to be able to resist the natural urges in favor of long term goals and recognition of more important needs.

You know something if Obama and the Dems in Congress turn around the Bush/GOP depression they are going to earn major political capital. At that point instead of struggling to get any measure passed they will be able to dictate terms. At that point I will have much higher expectations for them. At this point I don't think the Dems have the power they need (part of that is due to the weakness of Harry Reid, in my opinion).

[chimpymustgo]

60. NJmav, Dems will NEVER have more power than they had at the beginning of this year.

Eight years of Bush OVER. An electoral MANDATE. A President who captured the hearts and historical respect of an unheard of majority of Americans. Even a significant number of republicans were willing to give him a chance.

NJmaverick, Obama and the Dems SQUANDERED IT. To the extent that I'm starting to wonder if it was purposeful - that they never intended to reform health care. They really couldn't have fucked this up any worse.

And after that charade with the banksters and the Obama's phony outrage for the cameras (but deferential accommodation with the actual banksters who bothered to show up - another slap in the face), the scales have fallen from my eyes. They are not working for me. And I shall not work for them.

I was willing to compromise - WE WERE FORCED INTO A COMPROMISE OPENING GAMBIT, with universal health care OFF THE TABLE. We have not been treated fairly. We have been used and abused.

[NJmaverick]

61. I would disagree. The mandate was a change from the GOP and Bush

The Dems need to get a few successes under their belts before the mandate is for them and their agenda. Beyond that the nation was handed to us in the one of the worst states ever. That severely hamstrung the options. The Dems need to get the economy turned around in a hurry as 2010 is coming up fast. If they can pull that off, THEN they will be in a position of power.

[KharmaTrain]

28. Being A Realist Sucks...

Many here had high expectations...probably far too high than our system could handle or ever will. I include myself in those who had hoped for more from this administration but also was very leery of making mistakes of the past or assuming any real change had taken place. Yes, people voted Democrats in, but in many cases it wasn't because people were embracing Progressive/Liberal values but were rejecting those of the rushpublicans and "conservatives". Democrats won despite rather than selling specifics. Hope is a great word, but it left the specifics to those who felt their issues were at the top of the list...and we're seeing they weren't.

The reality is that this country didn't move from right to left last year...it just moved away from going further right. The job of moving it leftward wasn't done...in many case it wasn't even attempted. We saw this with the healtcare debate as many assumed people understood single payer or public option and never explained its real benefits...meanwhile the right wing hate machine with its corporate allies were able to make more noise and "simplify" the debate that has boxed this legislation into a corner and in turn frustrated and disenchanged many Progressives and Liberals. Truth is we lost the message war on this one...and could lose even more in the future (especially if no healthcare bill is passed).

Will Pitt hit the nail on the head recently when he pointed out that to the Democratic party the base are a "silent majority"...union members who are the largest bloc of registered Democrats along with the "soft middle"...moderates whose 10-20% can swing an election. Yes, they take Liberals and Progressives for granted just like the rushpublicans do with the fundies. Where else is there to go? Third party? Good luck with that.

The message should be for Liberals and Progressives is to rethink the message and get a better look at where things really are. While the country has moved toward the center (as its always likely to do), that center is still to the right and the ideals of many Progressives and Liberals still haven't taken hold. There's a big sales job to do here...both with voters and then within the Democratic party.

[NJmaverick]

31. Thanks for this very thoughtful post

Yeah there is a big sales job to do, and I don't think as a group we are doing a very good job selling it. I have spent a lot of time debate right wingers, republicans, libiterians, democrats, independents and moderates. I have learned the hard way you can't sell anyone on anything if you come off angry and acting like everyone else but your group is idiots. It just turns people off from whatever you have to say, no matter how reasoned and correct it may be.

[cry baby]

97. totally agree nt

[mdmc]

36. Sounds like ya sticking with the DLC - cool for you

I guess I am too. No need to have a real progressive movement..
I disagree with your assertion that corporations are not evil - they will do whatever they need to do in order to make a profit.

[NJmaverick]

38. Do you or any of your friends and relatives work for these evil entities?

do you have a 401K, stock, pension plan or mutual funds? If you answer yes to any of these, how do reconcile working or profiting from evil?

[mdmc]

52. Yes my friend... I do many evil things

I work for an non union shop.
I have a 401k. I own some NIKE stock.
My dad works for Sara Lee. My uncle for Raython.

I admit this in the open.

Sure the world would be better if my labor was organized for the benefit of all working people.
Sure my dad makes a living putting mom and pop shops out of business.
Sure my uncle makes a living producing weapons of mass destruction.
Sure my investments in NIKE require SLAVE LABOR AND DESTROY AMERICA's ability to manufacture things in our country.

Like I said, I am sticking with the DLC. With Leiberman. With Rham. I'll take my punishment on judgement day, just like all others that put their personal comfort and affluence over that of the meek and mild.

God bless the poor, and those that work to reduce the suffering of the sick and poor. And all of us that allow poverty to grip mankind - Shame on you (me).

peace and low stress..

[dysfunctional press]

37. corporations AREN'T evil...the people that run them are.

just like the people that 'run' the dlc.
and the blue dogs.

[NJmaverick]

39. Lot of evil in the world huh? Say do you or your family work for evil?

do you have stock in the form of stocks, mutual funds, 401K or pension fund in evil? If the DLC and Blue dogs have helped take down the GOP does that mean the GOP is not as evil as we thought?

[dysfunctional press]

45. no to both questions.

i'm disabled, my wife is unemployed...and our savings have been tapped out.

"If the DLC and Blue dogs have helped take down the GOP does that mean the GOP is not as evil as we thought?"

ask me again if/when it ever happens.

[NJmaverick]

51. Has your wife sent any resumes to any of those evil corporations?

would she turn down a job offer from one of them?

[dysfunctional press]

56. nope.

she's always worked for smaller family owned companies, and probably will again.

[freddie mertz]

41. I think you need to recognize the contradictions that separate the first part

Of your OP from the second.

If you really do want the first things you listed, then you belong in he liberal/progressive camp.

If you really do feel that positively about corporations and the DLC, you belong in that camp.. somewhere between DLC and GOP.

That's how I see it anyway.

[NJmaverick]

42. I don't see the positions as incompatible. Yet there are many that do

[freddie mertz]

46. But in many ways they are. The corporate system you embrace is the very same thing

That stands in the way of what you claim to want.

Especially on the issues of economic and social justice.

Just look at what has happened to HCR.

I'd recommend you take a look at some of the fundamental writings of Marx.

Old and somewhat simplistic compared to the systems in place today.

But a good starting point for understanding the link between economic power and ideology.

[NJmaverick]

55. Much of what you describe can be resolved with campaign finance reform

A well regulated free market system can be a very effective thing, in my opinion. European style socialism can a pretty good alternative. However they are all various ecomonic models. They all have pluses and minuses and many could work effectively. So I don't see how their can be only one choice for progressives.

[freddie mertz]

68. Social democracy is the way to go, but DLC opposes that at every step.

They are willing to pander to the most backward, self-destructive tendencies in our culture and economics to hold on to the last traces of power in a declining nation.

We need to renew this nation, not just "Reform" it.

Education, health care, strong labor laws, a dialing back of the military-industrial, national-security machine, are crucial for our survival at this stage.

DLC thinking just does not get it. They would lead us, with their allies the Pukes, into the dustbin of history.

And the current administration, sad to ay, is singing from their choir book.

[NJmaverick]

71. You know Social Democracy may very well be the way to go

however I have to wonder if that is possible until decades of right wing proganda and misinformation is flushed from our nation's system.

[freddie mertz]

85. It's more likely to be possible if we reject pandering to conservative dogma.

Like the DLC does.

Just a thought.

[NJmaverick]

86. You know I think you mis characterize the role the DLC plays in the party

they work to keep the party in power, so we can all have the luxury to talk about if the Dem's bills are progressive enough or not. With out them we would be the permanent minority opposition party.

[freddie mertz]

93. I view them as a kind of Fifth Column

As Republicans in all but name.

Case in point: Harold Ford.

With friends like that, we are never going to get to the modern society we need.

[dysfunctional press]

47. "Yet there are many that do" -only the rational ones.

try it sometime.

[NJmaverick]

63. You'll forgive me that I have my doubts about those that compare my position with Nazis are the

"rational ones"

[dysfunctional press]

83. the problem is...

you're not thinking rationally. :shrug:

[varelse]

48. Why not join the DLC and get to know them and their "principles" more intimately?

Just as with the progressive movement, you could learn a lot about the group by becoming an active member.

[NJmaverick]

64. I would expect like anyone else they have their pluses and minuses

I think their pluses was saving the Dems from the Reagan revolution. Their minuses are they push to far to the right, at times. To me I just can't get worked up that this makes them evil or something.

[dysfunctional press]

50. if this were germany in the 30's, it sounds like you'd make a good national socialist party member.

after all- their policies pulled germany out of it's economic morass.
and that's a GOOD thing, right...?

[NJmaverick]

53. Have you ever heard of Godwin's law?

[dysfunctional press]

57. well- when the jackboots fit...

[NJmaverick]

59. I'll take that as a no

[dysfunctional press]

80. of course you would...you've been wrong about everything else...

why stop now...?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[NJmaverick]

90. Well if you understand Godwin's law you would see that you managed to defeat yourself and your

message. Further it you comments create the distinct impression that you failed to comprehend what you read about the law or you are merely being obtuse for the sake of some sort of disruptive fun.

[jtylerpittman]

100. you are going way to far

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[NJmaverick]

58. That is quite the nasty comment. Sort of makes me wonder if compassion and kindness

isn't what the progressive movement is based on. It seems many progressive, like yourself, have the sort of nastiness and mean spiritedness of someone operating out of self interest, rather than altruistic reasons (just look at your typical right winger for similar bad behavior). Maybe Girl gone Mad you need to learn to control your anger and start to act in a manner that brings credit to the progressive movement rather than shame. As others have said selling a position is critical and your self indulgence in baser behavior is only hurting those sales.


PS- Say you never explained why you demanded that Paul Krugman be treated like he was a member of DU. I am still waiting for that answer. You claimed that no one should be allowed to criticize him and if they did they were hurting the Democratic party. You made that attack and then dissappeared, like you were tossing a grenade.... oh wait never mind... I see where you are coming from....

[Odin2005]

66. I think the Blue Dogs can go to hell, but the defeatist BS is nauseating.

Too many people here think the only choices are capitulation to the corporatist and violent revolution (which they fantasize about in their Lazy Boy recliners). What happened to grassroots activism? Getting rid of the bastards in the primaries? State-level reform?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

72. You sound like someone who I'd be proud to stand alongside with, NJMaverick.

:hi:

Being pragmatic doesn't mean you lack principle. It simple means you have a realistic view on life.

[NJmaverick]

74. Thank you, I would be happy to stand by you as well!

[kctim]

75. Seems you actually understand

that demanding others compromise their principles is just as bad as them demanding you compromise yours.

Thank you for being a "pragmatic liberal."

[NJmaverick]

76. Do you think that one can be successful in politics if one is unwilling to

compromise. I am willing to do balance and compromise and see what's possible and push for what I believe to be the best possilbe outcome. However there are many in the progressive movement that are saying that sort of thing is not welcomed.

[kctim]

92. Heck no

our system is dependent on and only works because of compromise. Compromise is never welcomed by those who believe they know everything because their way is the ONLY right way. I go through that crap with my two kids on a daily basis.

[NYC_SKP]

78. Don't let 'em get you down.

They aren't really representative of progressives as a whole.

They are to progressives what separatists, or flag amendment nuts, or border wall builders are to Republicans.

The ones who shout down anyone who doesn't share their narrow perspective.

:toast:

[L0oniX]

81. K & R

[mopinko]

82. you are having a lot of conversations with ignored, i see.

yeah, there are a lot of bomb throwers on here. it is painful some days. i feel downright homeless today.
hang in there. you are far from alone.

[Peacetrain]

87. I am standing with you Maverick...

[dionysus]

88. question. have you seen the level of outrage you find here among any of the dems you encounter in

the real world?

i see some frustration and dissappointment, but nothing approaching the frothing goin on here...

[NJmaverick]

94. I have seen that level of anger and outrage, but only from the right or republicans

[Armstead]

104. Yes -- either outrage or fatalistic cynicism

people (myself included) tend to be a little more, er, firey on message boards than in real life.

But in real life I run across many people who could be considered moderate liberal who are either angry and disappointed or have given into cynical fatalism.

[varelse]

107. I see a great deal more apathy in the "real world" than on any political forum

I don't see much rage - I'm sure that's partially because of the whole "accountability factor" that comes into play when you're acting in person rather than anonymously.

[cry baby]

96. You're not alone. I am where you are. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

98. “Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone,..........

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." --John Quincy Adams

If your principles are pragmatism and the need for the Democratic Party to gain and retain power, then vote that way.

Mine differ.

[proteus_lives]

99. Dude, you're going to be savaged.

I'm not 100% about the DLC but you're right, compromise and pragmatism aren't dirty words. But some here can't handle it.

I saw up-thread you were called a nazi. Wow.

There are Democrats and corporations I don't like but I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm not sure how the next three years will play out.

And the polarized thing sucks but it makes sense. I've always encountered DUers who were as bad as freepers in their own way.

[Armstead]

105. Compromise and pragmatism are not dirty swords but....

they are red flags when they are used as a catchall defense of selling us out and/or being afraid to act in the best interests of the public.

And who decided that liberal and progressive ideas are not as pragmatic as conservative ones?

[jgraz]

101. .

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

[debbierlus]

102. You don't want to bring the democratic party down in support of a third party liberal...

And, they count on this fact.

The democratic party has brought ITSELF down.

Stand for your deepest principles and your true beliefs. Compromising them is the road to hell.

[Armstead]

103. Good post although I don't agree with your distinctions

The attitudes you seem to object to among progressives are the result of years of being abused and ignored by certain factions of the Democratic Party that have undermined the party's role as a balance to Republican conservatism.

After being constantly shot down, disappointed and dismissed by the leadership of the Democratic Party, some people who are liberal/progressive are understandably angry and disappointed and frustrated.

Health care is like a straw that breaks the camel's back.

For example, I consider myself a moderate liberal progressive. Until the 1980's my beliefs were considered mainstream. But thanks to the Democrats lack of support for my values, my moderate form of liberalism is being treated like political leprosy by the very party that is supposed to represent them.

What really pisses me off is not the Republicans. By successfully selling conservatism, they are just doing their job.

No the real culprits are the faction of Democrats (the DLC in particular) who have worked hand in hand with the Republicans to marginalize liberalism and push the basic principles of conservatism.
By doing that, they helped disrupt the balance of power between liberal and conservative.

They also they played right into the hands of Corporate Oligarchs....Business is a good and necessary part of society. BUT it has to be kept under control by liberal policies. The only protection of truly free markets is regulation to prevent monopolistic concentrations of wealth and power.

As a result of this long sell out and/or surrender by too many Democratic leaders, the center of gravity has been shifted so far to the right that even moderate liberalism is characterized as far left. And that's bullshit because most Americans are generally much more liberal than the labels imply.

The anger over all that is what may make some of us seem unreasonable. We just want to restore a truly balanced political system -- but too many Democrats seem determined to prevent that.

[Name removed]

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