How many of you would prefer to Kill this HCR bill and work on real reform from scratch instead?

[TheCoxwain]

We need a new movement for Real HCR once we have recovered from the backstabbing wounds..


question is will we recover??

[napi21]

1. Not me!

[mbperrin]

2. Me! Single payer is the only answer. It will both lower costs and

increase the quality of care as well as cover 100% of the population.

[Vincardog]

17. Me too. Start reconciliation with USP, and end with the most affordable healthiest bill. Let the

Parasitic Insurance companies eat shit and DIE.

[el_bryanto]

54. And who cares how many will die while we wait for this pie in the sky?

If those people didn't want to die from treatable conditions they should be out there fighting for single payer.

Bryant

[AllyCat]

66. How will this bill keep people from dying? I just don't see the reasoning

but you do. What is your take on this bill and its merits? (not a flame, I really want to know what you think).

[LiberalAndProud]

3. It won't happen.

Clinton took one shot. It failed. And we waited for 16 years to have this discussion again. I suspect it will be dead for another 16 after they kill it this time. I think health insurance reform is dead for another generation.

[Dr Fate]

76. The "16 year rule" is by design, not by necessity.

If DEMS make us wait 16 years, as opposed to working on real reform right up until the midterms if need be, then that is their choice, not some rule they have to follow.

I find the "we will not give you anything for 16 years unless you go with Lieberman" to be a threat, not something that actaully has to happen.

I realize it WILL happen as you say- but lets be clear that DEMS would be doing this is by design.

Abandoning HCR would be a CHOICE on the part of DEMS, not some rule they have to follow, a or a neccessity.

[LiberalAndProud]

80. Yes, it is a political construct, with emphasis on con.

Nonetheless, it is the most likely outcome. Just as Republicans will not deal with abortion, because it is their trump issue, Democrats will not deal with health care, because it is theirs.

I was perusing Clinton's state of the union address from January 1994 yesterday. Nothing.has.changed.

Nothing.

[Purveyor]

4. I'm there... eom K&R

[Fridays Child]

63. Yep. n/t

[polichick]

5. I would. Mandates without cost containment or competition is crazy...

It's immoral for a rich country that claims to be about democracy to fail to provide excellent universal healthcare.

I'd like to see us go back to square one, the place where we made our fatal mistake - SINGLE PAYER.

[sabbat hunter]

37. sadly

with the current senate, single payer will never pass.

[MineralMan]

6. I'd get on board with that.

Many here will say that it's now or never, though. I'm not so sure.

[sinkingfeeling]

7. Once the Senate bill is defeated, there will be no beginning from scratch. It will probably

never be discussed again. After two defeats, who would ever present a bill again?

[Cleita]

20. We can go back to working it on a local and state level.

One thing no one has tackled is passing laws on a state or county level that put the squeeze on insurers. A start would be getting rid of the high deductibles and keeping premiums low. I would like to see the insurers forced to maintain the same rules as Medicare. If they don't like it, they can get out of the business in that locality or state. Then a government plan would have to step into fill in the gap. We will never have real health care reform until we get rid of the insurance companies, either by statute or cutting way down on their profits. They saw the public option as the threat it was that would lead to single payer, so they effectively put out that fire in Washington. However, little fires burning all over the countries at local or state level is harder for them to run around putting out.

[Sgent]

24. Not really

States can't mess with Medicare, are limited on Medicaid, and can't touch employer insurance with over 50 lives insured (ERISA).

The pool just isn't big enough to do much at the state level.

[Cleita]

33. Some can.

We actually passed single payer, universal health care in our legislature twice and twice Arnold vetoed it. Of course his big campaign contributors and supporters are the industry. I believe if Jerry Brown wins the Governor's office when Arnold's term is up, it will happen. Incidentally, Medicare and Medicaid are both single payer plans and can be folded into any legislation that isn't in conflict with them. I doubt if any employers will be upset if they don't have to buy insurance when better coverage is offered that they can get from the state that will cost them much less.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

86. Exactly right. There's a campaign going on in Minnesota, too

If a couple of states can adopt single payer and have it WORK, pretty soon other states will be clamoring for it, too, especially if businesses relocate to or choose states where they don't have to worry about paying employee health benefits.

This is how Canada got its system, one province at a time.

[Cleita]

88. It's also how they got a lot of our movie business.

It was more cost effective for them to make movies and TV shows in Canada than Hollywood because they didn't have to pay the expensive insurance for health benefits. Many of the American crews who moved up there temporarily to work on a show found themselves also getting benefits for their children for school supplies and other things.

[sinkingfeeling]

31. No, because all the insurance company has to do is stop issuing policies in any state

that tries to curb them. I live in Arkansas, and just 2 companies provide 86% of all health insurance. So if no insurance companies will sell in a state, what would people do? Your dream of getting rid of insurance companies isn't likely to ever happen.

[Cleita]

36. Actually, that would be great. If the insurance companies fold their tents

and leave, it opens up the opportunity to put in a government health plan that expands on Medicare, Medicaid, the VA and any other government run plans. The state can issue insurance to fill the gap and cover everyone who isn't covered because their insurance companies have left them uninsured. They do it for earthquake, worker's comp. and other venues when the insurers leave. It's too bad that your government in Arkansas didn't step up to the plate.

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. Not to mention, some smart private insurer will step in to offer supplemental

policies in the markets the big companies walked away from and will make a killing.

[sinkingfeeling]

53. Who knew that bankrupt states can afford to take on all the health insurance costs of their

entire population! States can't alter Medicare, Medicaid, nor VA plans. And you do know that insurance companies are running and receiving payments for all of those plans, right?

[eridani]

75. That would actually be pretty easy. They wouldn't be bankrupt if they collected

--the premiums now going to useless shitstain sociopaths.

[Kansas Wyatt]

44. Where is that rule?

The problem is that the politicians are telling the people what to accept, instead of the people telling them what they had damn well better do.

[grahamhgreen]

69. Not true - This has been a Dem selling point for 60 years.

[Cleita]

8. We don't need to kill it to work from scratch.

Whatever passes doesn't need to be the last word. I, for one, intend to keep pushing for a single payer, universal system. We lost the battle, not the war. We also now have a better idea of whom the real enemy is because they have revealed themselves to us, warts and all. We may have to work on getting things done at a local level at first too, getting our local and state governments to pass laws restricting how insurance companies can operate in those places. Bit by bit and inch by inch, we will gain our ground until we are unstoppable. Don't give up.

[FormerDittoHead]

9. MOST OF ALL I don't want any fucking 'victory laps' run after this POS gets passed...

What an accomplishment!

For the first time in HISTORY we've done something not equaled since man first went to the moon!

A great day for progressives!

blaw, blaw, blaw, blaw.

I just don't want them to brag about it...

[Fire1]

13. Then don't download this site cause that's mostly what you're

going to find.

[vi5]

25. God...you hit the nail on the head.....

Fine. Pass the bill. Trump it up to your media beltway buddies who will snicker behind your back at this pathetic showing.

Just leave me out of it and don't try to convince me there's anything good or historic about this. And I'll probably end up with another round of ignores from the "clap louder" tinkerbells on here.

[RaleighNCDUer]

48. No victory laps -

just a lifting of the glass to what might have been, and an acknowledgment that we have a LOT of work still to do.

This passing is NOT the end of the debate.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

49. +1

I've posted this before, but one more time seems appropriate. Are you listening LIEberman?

My BIL in Germany had major major surgery earlier this year. It would have been well into 6 figures for the operations and skin grafts alone in the US. Add in 7 weeks in the hospital and it would have probably imposed a severe financial burden to most Americans regardless of their insurance coverage.


The German style of providing for their citizens....

Total bill for the surgeons was $20.
The hospital bill was $10 per day.

That's what a real change would look like.

Will I live long enough to see it in the US? No freaking way in hell.

[Cleita]

50. Thom Hartmann just said it.

They are going to claim a victory and walk away.

[change_notfinetuning]

62. Are you kidding? Get out that stopwatch on State of the Union night, and time

the APPLAUSE that the mention generates on "OUR" side of the aisle, and watch that beaming face, the past symbol of hope, that screams, "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"!

I hop there will be a few Democrats who will stand for something, and hold their applause, the symbol of betrayal of the American people.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

82. I can think of 5 posters here off the top of my head who will start the threads of praise....

even if the reform is shitty (which it looks like it will be).

[Marr]

10. I'd like to dump this, yes. I'm not sure starting over would do

any good, with corporate Democrats in leadership positions. If our own party leaders had wanted to achieve meaningful healthcare reform, they could've used the hardball tactics the Republicans used. They didn't, because they don't. The whole thing has been about convincing the public that something is being done for them, while actually putting them on the yoke of the Insurance companies.

I think the Democrats are about to ride themselves right out of their majorities, personally. And if who knows-- if the Republicans manage to get enough of their Tea-flavored candidates in to replace them, Obama may even get to see himself impeached. This isn't 1994. People can see what's happening as it's happening, but these corporate con-men think they can just play the same old game.

[Junkdrawer]

11. Sadly, it has got to that point. n/t

[WeDidIt]

12. That's teh only way forward. n/t

[T Wolf]

14. IF (a major qualification) there was a Democratic Congress and Administration who would

actively and aggressively push for Single Payer, I would be all for dumping this worthless-yet-harmful piece of crap in favor of starting over.

A simple plan would be easier to present to the public and garner support and easier to defend against those who do not want to improve health care in this country.

The fact that "our" people in government do not want reform and will not work for it leaves me to think, "I have no idea what is the best thing to do." All I know is that this go-round was a waste.

[woo me with science]

15. Yes.

There is no cost-cutting or serious reform of the system in this bill at all. The whole point of this bill was to restructure the system to rein in spiraling costs and make sure everyone can afford insurance.

We now plan to mandate that people buy the expensive, inferior product, which IMO is worse than no reform at all.

[bvar22]

16. Here.

I'm calling my Senators telling them to vote NO to this $Trillion Dollar gift to the Health Insurance Cartel.
If this passes, Health Care Reform WILL be set back for a generation.

Those who believe that The Democrats "will go back and fix it later"....LOL.

Right after they go back and fix NAFTA and The Patriot Act like they promised.

[MNDemNY]

18. HELL YES !!!!!

This "bill" is little more than a give away to the industry!!

[Sebastian Doyle]

19. There's only one way this thing could be saved now

And that would be for the whole piece of shit to be stripped out in reconciliation and replaced with Ted Kennedy's medicare for all bill from 2007.

A real Senate Majority Leader would do exactly that. Spineless Harry? Probably not. :(

So that being the case, fuck it and start over.

[polichick]

32. Wouldn't that be beautiful?! nt

[Myrina]

21. Yep. Every Dem needs to vote against this POS if it comes to that.

This was never real reform in the first place.
Maybe, ultimately, in his unctious and self-serving way, Lieberman did us a favor.

[MilesColtrane]

22. I'm against its passage if they drop the Medicare buy in.

There may be a very slim chance at reform in 2012, but history doesn't suggest it will happen again for many more years.

[leeroysphitz]

23. It's hard to recover from the back stabbing wounds when they just keep sticking it in.

[Mass]

26. I would if there was a chance for this to happen. It wont.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. It's already been drowned in "compromises". Killing it is just confirming it's death.

[Robyn66]

28. kill it

It sickens and saddens me to say it but I don't see what good is really left in the bill now.

[cali]

29. I reluctantly believe that this legislation should be killed but I'm not

going to kid myself about it being an opportunity for real reform.

It is not.

[grantcart]

35. agreed

[stray cat]

30. The GOP has plans they could implement in 2012

you get a 4000 tax break to pay for health care

[flyarm]

34. Kill this dog and pony show!!

Remember Joe Lieberman was Obama’s Mentor in the Senate

By: fflambeau Monday December 14, 2009 10:05 pm

Those who are up in arms over Sen. Joe Lieberman’s "veto" of the extension of Medicare should remember this. When Sen. Barack Obama arrived in Washington, D.C. in 2005, he selected as his mentor none other than: Joe Lieberman.

Here’s David Sirota writing about this, after discussing Obama’s stab in the back of the progressive Lamont in Connecticut and his stab in the back of the progressive Christine Cegelis (Obama backed Duckworth) way back in 2006:

snip:

Other sources, including the Hartford Courant, reported that Obama chose Lieberman as his mentor.]

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/18929

[mike_c]

38. I would dance on its grave....

A happy dance.

[chill_wind]

39. Well by now, what's left of it

should certainly fit on a single sheet of legal sized paper.

[Kansas Wyatt]

40. I've been saying that since they weakened the Public Option.

Because it was over at that point and only a matter of time, before it was weakened down to NOTHING, but a GIVEAWAY to the Insurance Industry.

You don't start out with what you expect to end up with, then negotiate down from there.

You start out with the best you could ever dream of and negotiate down from that, to end up with what you could expect to get.

[TwilightGardener]

41. What la-la land do you all live in that you think something better is coming down the pike?

It's like you've totally missed the last 8 months: Soshulism! Death panels! Gubmint Takeover! You think that scrapping what reforms MIGHT pass now is going to help lead to better reforms in the future? Under what President and Congress?

[Kansas Wyatt]

42. When give a microphone to and ask for opinions from those who wish to kill reform

What do you think you are going to get?

Obama & The Democrats fucked this up from the very start.

[TwilightGardener]

43. At the beginning, they were hoping to win some Repub support.

That was naive. The GOPers are 100% committed to making sure Congress passes NOTHING that can be seen as an achievement or kept promise by Obama--they should have anticipated that. And they misread the public, too--people are afraid of change, and it's too fucking easy to scare them and misinform them. But, we are where we are, there's no turning back the clock.

[Vinca]

45. I don't see how on earth this current mess will be able to function

if citizens are mandated to buy private insurance or face penalties. It seems we the people are being penalized and big insurance has hooked its wagon to the gravy train again. There is little in the current proposal that reins in big insurance. Sure, they can say that people with pre-existing conditions must be covered, but trust me . . . unless you're Bill Gates or Warren Buffett you won't be able to afford the product they will offer. I'm totally disgusted and sick of emailing, calling, bitching and complaining for nothing. It's all a waste of time. I've come to the conclusion this country doesn't believe millions of us are worthy of life.

[Greyhound]

47. Here. n/t

[Tim01]

51. Kill it. I don't think it will do more good for corporations than average people. nt

[Generator]

52. Yeah but Obama wants this for his political career

and legacy. Certainly that is more important than our lives.

[laughingliberal]

67. Oh, when you put it that way, I guess I should get my priorities in order

I mean, really, my life is kind of small and meaningless now anyway. I'm just being selfish.

[Faryn Balyncd]

55. K&R. Mandating purchase of overpriced insurance is not only a gift to Big Insurance, but to the GOP!

[change_notfinetuning]

56. Definitely. Obama is putting on that fake spare tire and expecting to take in

the whole country on it. It won't be long before the folly becomes obvious.

[Zen Democrat]

57. Not me. We'd have to wait for another election to start over 'cause the #'s wouldn't change. n/t

[EFerrari]

58. We need to take our elections back. Election finance reform.

Until we do that, whatever we do doesn't have much of a chance, imho.

[suffragette]

84. Election finance reform is the only way we can turn all this around

As long as the politicians are more beholden to corporations than to the people, this crap will just continue.

[Generator]

59. This bill will kill children and put them in more poverty.

Obama and the senate are immoral. What matters to them only is their political career. They willfully allow children to die. If that isn't immoral I don't know what is. Too harsh? This tidbit from Huffing ton Post is really all you need to know anymore.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/donna-norton/ipeaceful-revolutioni-thr_b_392912.html

And now in another blow to kids, some children could actually end up worse under health reform than they are now. Must we dress our kids in pin-stripped suits in order to get their interests represented?

Under the current Senate health bill, most of the 7 million children currently covered by the popular and successful Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) would be moved to the new insurance exchanges created by health reform. The result? A recent study by First Focus finds that children moving from CHIP to the exchange plans would dramatically increase out-of-pocket expenses for their families. For example, the First Focus study estimates that out-of-pocket costs for a child living in a family earning 225 percent of the Federal poverty level would increase by 1,100 percent if the Senate were to join the House in repealing CHIP.

[dana_b]

60. yes n/t

[Ganja Ninja]

61. I'm taking the opposite position of Joe Lieberman.

If he approves then kill the bill. :sarcasm:

Seriously the Democrats are about to mandate that everybody be forced to buy health insurance from dishonest companies with no price controls of any kind. That smells like a political disaster to me. I can just imagine how many ways this could come back to bite them on the ass. Then again the way things are going I'm finding it hard to give a damn about the Democrats fate.

[JVS]

64. +1

[sad sally]

70. Guess it'll mean more employment for the enforcers?

[laughingliberal]

72. And see, we thought no one was addressing unemployment nt

[Skidmore]

65. I'm not going to be alive when my g-grandchildren are working from scratch.

That is what will happen. Do you think that Dems will have a majority after this next election in Congress? A majority that is meaningful? That cesspool of a Senate will be full of more fecal matter than ever. Healthcare reform will have been lost in this generation and the next--the next because we have a whole generation of "trickle onners" who were indoctrinated during the St. Ronnie Reagan years and who need to grow old to understand why it hurts so bad.

[Motown_Johnny]

68. I would rather take this bill, then pass another one through reconciliation and Then start over

to try and get it right.


Allowing 122 people to die each and every day from lack of care needs to be addressed immediately. We can start over to try and improve it again later.

[patrice]

71. Medicare for Everyone!

[salguine]

73. This bill is a piece of shit that will spike any hope of real reform for generations to come. It

needs to be driven out to a clearing in the woods and forced to dig its own grave at gunpoint.

[eridani]

74. Me. The bill is a piece of shit enslaving us to insurance companies n/t

[Zavulon]

77. I would.

There is nothing about this bill that I like. It leaves too many uninsured, doesn't kick in quickly enough (although the higher taxes will kick in immediately), costs too much and threatens jail time. I'd have expected this from Republicans, but not from our side. It makes me sick.

[Kitty Herder]

78. Count me in!

[pleah]

79. Where is hell is everyone? Sen. Sanders Single Payer bill up today

on the senate floor!

[begin_within]

81. Yes, scrap the current bill and start over, with Single Payer

[BlueIris]

83. Right here. This "effort" for "reform" has been a complete, unmitigated disaster.

Admit failure, and start all over again with a blank piece of paper.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. I could get behind any one of three options:

1. Single payer

2. National health service

3. Private insurance as heavily regulated as a utility, as it is in Germany and Switzerland.

4. Any combination of the above

I am utterly opposed to the current legislation, which, after much sound and fury, is simply the expensive and burdensome and Republican-designed Massachusetts plan on steroids.

[suffragette]

87. + 1,000

[WT Fuheck]

89. That would be best, provided we/they get it done before next Spring.

After electioneering season starts, they won't do anything, and after that they will have even fewer votes than they have now.

[quiller4]

90. Not me.

[1]

91. and how many of you get no say in this bill whatsoever. exactly. do you get it now?

they decide. you don't.

there is no question. you are powerless...