Mandated Insurance WITHOUT A Public Option Is A DISASTER For The American People

[JFN1]

I understand that there are some good things in this bill, and I also understand the fear that killing this bill will kill any chance of reform for another generation.

Like I said, I get the fear. But to suggest that to kill this very bad bill that mandates insurance purchased from the very same private insurance companies we are attempting to reign in, will result in another 20 to 40 years without reform, is, well, spineless.

And while you mull that over, you better get your head around this inconvenient fact:

The ONLY reason mandated health insurance made any sense at all was because the PUBLIC OPTION would have been in place to hold down costs.

WITHOUT THE PUBLIC OPTION, MANDATED INSURANCE IS ONLY A GIFT TO THE INSURANCE COMPANIES.

We are about to accept - with apparent gratitude - only a part of the entire equation. And I do not understand how so many do not see this simple, basic truth.

And to suggest that there is NO HOPE of another attempt at health care reform for 20 to 40 years is patently ridiculous.

What - is there a time limit? Are we only allowed to discuss major problems once every other generation? Do we get penalized if we try again with a better bill? WHO EXACTLY creates this limitation? We the People? Congress? Lobbyists? WHO?

So go ahead and give up the good fight. Settle, as many certainly will, for the worst half of the equation, for the part of the math that only benefits the already obscenely wealthy.

Because that was not how Mr. Obama explained it to us when he sold us on the idea of mandated insurance. He sold us mandated insurance hand-in-hand with the public option. To accept only the mandate, is to defeat ourselves.

So we all buy mandated insurance, and then what? We live happily ever after?????

[jtrockville]

1. The "insurance" model is broken. How does a mandate fix it?

[rucky]

3. If everyone were forced to buy a Sunggie,

then they would no longer be ridiculous.

[murray hill farm]

2. Crazy!

Just crazy!

[Armstead]

4. Be realistic. Bbe grateful. Stop asking for ponies. Don't let the perfect be enemy of good....

Just tossing off some of the cliches of the apologists for failure

[WeDidIt]

12. I think we're down to letting the shitty be the enemy to the craptastic. n/t

[readmoreoften]

35. How about when "bad" is the enemy of "good."

[ima_sinnic]

5. someone here once pointed out it might not even be legal

to force us to buy the product or service of a private company-- does anyone know if that's true?

[Shrek]

15. It's a matter of some debate among constitutional scholars

More info here.

[ima_sinnic]

32. thanks so much for the link, it's worth looking into, and

I'll be watching to see if someone uses it to challenge the "mandate."

[dmallind]

6. Do you apply the same to car insurance?

Mandatory insurance is not just a burden on the currently uninsured. It is the reduction of a burden on the currently insured. Unless providers without exception actually refuse any and all services for anyone unable to pay due to either wealth or more likely insurance, the costs for those services provided without repayment are inevitably passed on the ones who do pay. You can say that's OK because the insured are helping the poor. You can say that's OK because we should be willing to pay to prevent further damage to the general population due to infections and so on from the uninsured. What you can't say is that this does not happen. The money to treat the uninsured, in however limited a manner, must come from somewhere, and the people who pay their bills, mostly from insurance coverage, are the only fubndamental source of revenue.

[JFN1]

8. Comparing car insurance and health insurance is not a real comparison

Driving a car is a CHOICE, and thus any similarity between mandated auto insurance and mandated health insurance is fallacious.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

9. and it is not a FEDERAL requirement

with the power of the IRS to collect...just minor differences. why the fuck do people pull out auto insurance. heck the state only requires that you have LIABILITY insurance...you're not insuring YOU...you're insuring the other guy!

sP

[blue_onyx]

10. CAR INSURANCE IS NOT THE SAME THING!!!

People, including Obama, need to stop using car insurance to justify forcing people to buy health insurance.

[dmallind]

18. So if it's completely different .....who DOES pay for the costs of the uninsured? NT

[tosh]

23. Status quo: taxpayers

Proposed legislation: taxpayers and non-subsidised premium payers AFTER Inscos take their rather large cut.

[dmallind]

26. Nope - taxpayers do not support non-govt hospitals. Only patients. NT

[tosh]

31. Surprise!

[blue_onyx]

24. It's different because people can choose not to drive.

People aren't forced to buy car insurance. They only need it if they want to drive.

[dmallind]

27. And it's the same because the insured pay for the uninsured.

Not every aspect has to be comparable for some of them to be.

[blue_onyx]

29. It's a false comparison

No matter how many times you say it's not.

"And it's the same because the insured pay for the uninsured"

They'll still pay for most of it under the new "reform." They'll just be paying for it through taxes.

[yurbud]

28. yep, just forcing people to buy car insurance didn't drive down the price.

[Monk06]

42. In BC we kicked the insurance companies out of the car insurance business.

Just like we kicked them out of the health insurance
business and for the same reason. Predatory pricing
and their refusal to pay out claims so that every
insurance claim went to court in a consumer lawsuit.

Insurance companies are no better than mafia protection
rackets

[Umbral]

43. Isn't there competition between car insurers?

Given all the crappy commercials with which I'm inflicted, it must be so. Regardless, since I don't drive a car, I'm not forced to buy.

[dysfunctional press]

46. apples and hubcaps.

owning/operating a car isn't mandatory.

[Old Codger]

7. They Threw

Out the baby with the bathwater, the best parts of the bill were deleted, the parts that would have actually helped the people, the parts that helped big pharma and the health insurance companies are all still intact, FUCKED AGAIN. They managed to save the auto industry, they saved AIG(insurance) they are gifting health insurance companies in time for christmas, and we get shafted. Main street got screwed, BUT we get to donate our money, no, we get to gift our money to them and pay for all of it with no benefit to the majority.

[JFN1]

11. Exactly.

The only reason Congress is pushing this bill through before Christmas is so they can start campaigning on it for the mid-terms...

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. Don't they fucking realize that it will be used AGAINST them in those

mid-terms?

They could only campaign on it if it actually DID something for the people.

[leftstreet]

36. How can they campaign on it? Will Repubs agree not to say 'MANDATE!'

:shrug:

[Jamastiene]

40. Get ready to mark my words.

Democrats will say: We fought the Republicans and kept them from derailing our health care bill. We fixed health care in a historic bill that saved millions of people from being uninsured.

Republicans will say: We fought the Democrats and kept them from a tax and spend health care bill. We fixed health care in a historic bill that saved millions of people from being uninsured.

That's the main gist of how each side will use this in their campaigns. They will tout is as if they have actually accomplished something. Never mind how watered down and shitty this bill will be at the end.

[ixion]

13. Yes, it is... spot on, that.

Mandated insurance benefits only Insurance cos, for the most part.

[tosh]

14. Question:

Does the newer, Senate compromise bill include the mandate?

I've been assuming that it does, but have not actually confirmed.

[JFN1]

16. Yes, it is still in there...

No mention of removing it has been brought up at all, either...

[havocmom]

17. Mandate is a back-door payroll tax payable to Wall Street, since they didn't get privatized Social S...

What do insurance companies do with the $ clients pay? They invest it. The market is not so great so they are not doing as well. And Wall Street needs more $ to hold up the ponzi scheme.

They failed to trick Joe Voter into letting them have some of the Social Security with held from wage earners, so the scheme needed influx of cash.

The whole HCR was just a cover for making wage earners pay Wall Street, by way of laundering the $ through Big Insurance.

The middle class will have to put on shackles and join the working poor in more direct and observable servitude to the corporations. The government being the instrument that makes it so also makes it qualify for Mussolini's definition of fascism.

DEM pols who enabled this American march to serfdom might ponder the fate ot Mussolini.

[glitch]

21. That would require intelligence and humility. Like Mussolini they only have hubris. nt

[jgraz]

19. I guess the Democrats are tired of being in the majority.

Understandable... it's much easier to be weak and pathetic if you don't control Congress and the White House.

[JFN1]

33. Democrats are in the majority?

When did this happen? Why wasn't I informed? It sure doesn't seem like they are the majority party...

[jgraz]

34. Actually, Joe Lieberman is in the majority

The rest of us just do what he tells us.

[newtothegame]

20. This was our idea to push health reform; now we get to sit in it. n/t

[David Zephyr]

25. It is a disaster and we should all oppose it.

K&R.

[Faryn Balyncd]

30. K&R. Mandating purchase of overpriced insurance is not only a gift to Big Insurance, but to the GOP!

If can't get real reform passed, the absolute best course, both for America, for the cause of eventual real reform, and for the political future of the Democratic majority, is to put up a good bill, and force the GOP to defeat it by filibuster.

If the Senate goes ahead and castrates the bill so as to get 60 votes, it will not only bankrupt Americans and put the nail in the coffin for American industrial competitiveness, but it will hand the GOP the best issue they have ever had for decades to come - - the mandate to buy an overpriced inferior produce from a cartel.

We will be much better off sticking to our principles, even if that means no bill at this time.

[eridani]

37. A "public option" that most of the public is not allowed into isn't any better

Public means just that. Any member of the public should be able to get it.

[slinkerwink]

38. you're right on this in this post.

[Waiting For Everyman]

39. "Disaster" is an understatement.

I can't think of a word big enough for what a tragically awful step backwards into extreme risk this will be. We're effectively putting our necks in a guillotine, and trusting the insurance companies not to drop it on us.

Sure. That'll work out well.

What's going to happen when people who can't afford this start getting jailed for it?

[Usrename]

41. I think folks are finally paying attention.

I think defeating this thing will INCREASE the chance of real reform. Everyone in onto the scam this time. The Teabaggers are completely marginalized on this issue.

I would love to see this bill go down with Republicans forced to run on the Teabagger platform in the midterms. I would predict a bloodbath.

[kenny blankenship]

44. If someone had predicted that Obama and the Dems would have weaseled their way to this result

-but predicted it back in Spring- he or she would have been tombstoned for disloyalty. That's if enough people even paid enough attention to the poster to join in a flamewar against them.

[Cronus Protagonist]

45. The mandate, along with ANYTHING or NOTHING else is POISON

This OP sounds like a repeat of someone's propagandistic framing. Mandated "insurance" is a deal killer no matter what it is paired with. Surely a child could see that. Why are people trying to promote this meme that if it is paired with a "public option" a mandate would be OK? I call BULLSHIT!