The GOP had at most 55 Senators during Bush's presidency

[DainBramaged]

I've heard people say that it's not fair to criticize the Democrats for botching health care reform because the Democrats never truly had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate. Sure, they have 60 votes in principle, the argument goes, but with Lieberman, Nelson, Landrieu, and Bayh counted as four of those votes, it's not really a solid 60.

Perhaps. But then how was George Bush so effective in passing legislation during his presidency when he never had more than 55 Republicans in the Senate? In fact, during Bush's most effective years, from 2001 to 2005, the GOP had a grand total of 50, and then 51, Senators. The slimmest margin possible.

And look at what George Bush was able to accomplish in the Congress with fewer Senators than the Democrats have today:

- John Ashcroft nomination
- Iraq war resolution
- Repeated Iraq funding resolutions
- 2001 & 2003 tax cuts
- Patriot Act
- Alito
- John Roberts
- Medicare Part D

I'm sure some people will argue that Bush had September 11, and used it to pass lots of laws. Yes. But September 11 had nothing to do with the Ashcroft nomination, the 2001 tax cuts, with the Alito and Roberts nominations, nor with Medicare Part D. And in each case, Democrats rolled over and gave the Republicans the votes they needed to ensure there would be no effective filibuster. (And let's not forget, Obama had the economic meltdown and the recent memory of the failed Bush presidency to use as his rallying cry to smother opposition, and he didn't.)

So what's the difference? Why with 60 votes are Democrats so ineffective, but with 50 votes Republicans excel?

What the GOP lacked in numbers, they made up for in backbone, cunning and leadership. Say what you will about George Bush, he wasn't afraid of a fight. If anything, the Bush administration, and the Republicans in Congress, seemed to relish taking on Democrats, and seeing just how far they could get Democratic members of Congress to cave on their promises and their principles. Hell, even Senator Barack Obama, who once famously promised to lead a filibuster against the FISA domestic eavesdropping bill, suddenly changed his mind and actually voted for the legislation. Such is the power of a president and a congressional leadership with balls and smarts.

http://www.americablog.com/2009/12/gop-had-at-most-55-senators-during.html

[villager]

1. Nobody destroys the Democratic Party... like the Democratic Party

n/t

[vi5]

2. The responses you'll get for this....

1) We don't want to be like those mean old republicans, do we? We need to be much nicer and take the high road.
2)Bush was and is extremely unpopular as a result of the stuff he did.

[DainBramaged]

4. Yes taking the high road has done what for us.........

[Beetwasher]

7. It's Not The We Don't Want To Be Like Repubs (But It's True, We Don't)

It's that we aren't Repubs. The mindset and philosophy of the two parties, and their members, are fundamentally different. That's just the way it is.

[Matariki]

15. You forgot "keeping our powder dry" n/t

[vi5]

41. What the hell does that mean?

I keep seeing that posted on here and have no clue what it means.

[Matariki]

78. It's been used both sarcastically and as an explanation of apparent inaction

It refers to gun powder and preserving it for future use rather than use it in the present.

Was used a lot when the Democrats didn't filibuster during the Bush administration on issues like the war, war crimes, the patriot act, etc, etc, etc.

[robinlynne]

3. exactly. They dont want to fight for us.

[Beetwasher]

5. I Think This Argument Is BS

Repubs and Dems are VERY different animals. There are fundamental differences that explain why Repub congress w/ Repub President could steamroll and the why Dems don't/can't.

Could the Dems do it? IMO, no, it's not possible for them to steamroll stuff like the Repubs. It's much harder because of the fundamental philosophical differences and mindsets of Dems and Repubs.

[DainBramaged]

6. It's not bs, you (like so many) are in denial

That we don't have guts, balls or the best interest of our constituents at heart.

[Beetwasher]

9. The Only Denial Is Denying The Differences Between The Parties

There's a reason why some people and politicians are Repubs and some are Dems. They are different and it's evident in their practical governing philosophies, goals and decision making and debating processes.

[DainBramaged]

10. So, we should strive to accomplish nothing?

[Beetwasher]

12. Where Did I Say That?

We just need to understand that we will never be able to govern like they did/do. We just have fundamentally different mindsets.

[JVS]

21. "We just have fundamentally different mindsets." Speak for yourself. I think "our" mindset sucks..

ass, and anyone who has that mindset should be booted from any position of responsibility.

[Beetwasher]

22. Well Then, Become A Repub

If you admire their totalitarian, fascist, conditioned state of blindly following their leader.

Democrats are not a monolithic, conditioned voting bloc and never were. There's a reason for this.

[JVS]

25. A party with no discipline or cohesion is useless.

[Beetwasher]

34. Well Then! You Must Admire The Repubs and Communists!

I'm sure! Lot's of cohesion and discipline for you.

[JVS]

43. Having some kind of cohesion is not the same as being a republican.

[Beetwasher]

45. But That's The Cohesion That Is Being Discussed Here

The OP is comparing the Repub majority to the Dem majority.

The Repubs do have that kind of mindless cohesion. The Dems don't because they are fundamentally and psychologically different. And in my opinion, that is good. In practice, it's messier, but frankly the other type of cohesion is dangerous.

The only way to acheive (if you want to call what they did "acheivement") what the Repubs did, is to be Repubs.

[JVS]

48. Hitler breathed. It kept him alive. Does this mean that the only way to keep alive is being like..

Hitler?

You're making illogical jumps and personally attacking me, so I think I'll put you on ignore.

*Plonk*

[Beetwasher]

50. LOL! Buh Bye! My Oh My!

Personally attacking you by calling out bullshit? Where was the personal attack?

I guess if you can't handle the heat plonk away. :rofl:

You're example is idiotic and further evidence of child-like black and white thinking.

The only way to steamroll like the Repubs is to be like the Repubs. They were able to do that because they had no morals, no ethics, and no individuality and brokered no dissenting opinions within their party. Much like the communists and nazi's. Dems behave and govern fundamentally differently.

Sorry you don't get that or it's too advanced for you to comprehend, but it's reality.

[dionysus]

55. i know, that was a baffling exchange...

[DainBramaged]

28. It comes down to what Reid and too many Dems in the House and Senate lack

[Beetwasher]

32. Maybe, But That's Not My Point

The issue is not that black and white. It's not so simple to just say "The Repubs did it w/ 55!!" There's a real, fundamental difference in psychological make up between Repubs and Dems that explains their different behavior.

[DainBramaged]

38. It IS Black and White. There is no grey area here

Tom DeLay and Frist GOT SHIT DONE, period. What the president and Bushe wanted, they got done.


THAT is the difference.

[Beetwasher]

39. What A Bushian World You Live In

Here in reality, it's very gray.

So glad you admire Tom DeLay's effectiveness. :eyes:

Nice role model you're promoting there.

Seriously dude, take a step back. You are praising Tom DeLay. That doesn't give you pause?

[DainBramaged]

40. (sigh) stop defending the clowns who are holding up progress

nice try.

PS I'm not a 'dude' and people who use that are lower than whaleshit to me.

[Beetwasher]

42. Who's Defending Them?

:shrug:

I'm merely explaining why we are not Repubs and why we don't behave like them. After all, that IS what your OP was about, yes? You think we should behave more like Repubs, at least it seems that's what you're suggesting.

Get it, dude?

[DainBramaged]

46. You didn't get the message about calling me dude I guess

so I'll just add you to my ignore list. Defend the DLC and the others all you want. you're no better than they are.

[Beetwasher]

47. Ok Dude! Have Fun With You're Call For Lockstepping, Mindless Cohesion!

n/t

[KakistocracyHater]

74. so much for lockstep protection of the Constitution, & goodbye to

protective cohesion of civil liberties. Again when it comes to breaking America down there are people united & dedicated to get that done; when the reverse is needed? Hell no, that's evil Republican stuff! It says quite a lot that people perversely refuse to stand shoulder-to-shoulder for the greater good, all the while saying it's not their values, it's not their style.

[Beetwasher]

76. But That's Not The Cohesion That's Being Praised

What's being praised by the OP is Republican, lockstepping, mindless cohesion.

[dionysus]

49. excuse me, did you just say you hate people that use the word "dude"?

[DainBramaged]

51. No, but you can assume anything you'd like. I guess your reading comprehension is lacking

What a great way to distract from the discussion.

[dionysus]

56. and bring it back with an insult. you are a nasty piece of work....

i had to ask because rarely have i heard someone say shit that ridiculous.
:hi:

[Beetwasher]

57. Man, The Second You Tell Me Not To Do Something Because It Pisses You Off

Guess what I'm going to do! :rofl:

[dionysus]

60. what's that el duderino? you get that dude?

:evilgrin:

[Beetwasher]

62. LOL!

Now you're talkin' my language!

[DainBramaged]

68. (sigh) people calling me 'dude' offends me, if you don't like it tough shit

[Beetwasher]

70. LOL! Dude! If You Don't Like People Calling You Dude, Tough Shit!

Stay off the internets. :rofl:

[Beetwasher]

54. Is Being Lower Than Whale Shit Hate?

You decide! :rofl:

Amazing, ain't it?

[AndrewP]

37. You said it perfectly. MOST of the Democrats in congress don't have the balls

[DainBramaged]

71. Did you notice the two disruptor's in this thread

I wonder on whose payroll they reside....

[Beetwasher]

77. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Oh, Yeah, I'm A Paid Disruptor

Last refuge of someone who can't hold up their end of the debate.

[atreides1]

14. Interesting

Try using that "philosophical diffrences" argument with someone who is unemployed, or whose house is in foreclosure, or someone who was refused medical care by their insurance company.

Then come back and let us know how that worked out for you!

[Beetwasher]

16. Well Then! By All Means, That Person Should Vote For More Repubs!

That will certainly help!

[rucky]

8. They're better at marketing. n/t

[jtylerpittman]

13. they are more diciplined

[Beetwasher]

17. It's Not Disciplined, It's Conditioning

n/t

[treestar]

59. Yet when we ask for it here, we get insulted for "walking in lockstep."

[dionysus]

11. simple, because the dems didn't have the stones to fillibuster

[jtylerpittman]

19. no joke

the Republicans use it by default

[tridim]

24. ..During a period of manufactured terra-fear and fake wars.

I expected average Americans to forget what America was like 5 years ago, but not DU.

[KharmaTrain]

18. He Also Had ConservoDems...

Remember Zell Miller? Then there's Bayh, Pryor, Nelson and Breaux who were all but given GOOP votes on almost any controversial issue. In most votes even with 55, the GOOP could count on 5 or more Democrats to jump over.

No doubt the GOOP disicpline and leadership is far better than what Reid has offered. He's wanted to be liked more than he's wanted to lead....and it's let the GOOP steamroll him, if not members of his own caucus.

[JVS]

20. K&R

[dmallind]

23. But if we hold GWB to same standards

He uterly failed the anti-choice base and threw them under the bus with no significant abortion restrictions in 8 years

He utterly failed the homophobe base and threw them under the bus because he did not stop gay marriage gaining a foothold and did nothing to strengthen DADT into a witch-hunt with 8 years to do it in

He utterly failed the racist base and threw them under the bus because there still isn't a 50' razor wire and mantrap barrier on the Mexiacn border

He betrayed the anti-tax core who got him elected by not even matching Reagan's upper brackett rates.

He betrayed the true Republican zero-regulation crowd by not dismantling the EPA, OHSA and the SEC.

He betrayed free market party activists by passing the biggest expansion of Medicare in history.

He turned his back on the home-school Xian zealots by not forcing prayer and Creationism into public schools.

What the GOP got done is far far far from what they wanted at the ideological level of the party. Even wins like war funding were tactical opportunities leveraging the zeitgeist rather than core ideologies pushed on an unwilling opposition or public.

[treestar]

61. +1,000,000

I cannot believe the lack of perspective some have.

[rudy23]

26. DC Politics = Hannity and Colmes, Harlem Globetrotters vs. Washington Generals

The Democrats' job is to take a dive and make it look good. They're like Iron Mike Sharpe squaring off against Jake the Snake Roberts. They take a dive, make it look like they tried, then go out for beers with the opposition after the show.

[kctim]

27. So which

of those "accomplishments" involve more govt in personal lives and higher taxes?
You can't bully people into accepting those things.

[yurbud]

29. we had to scream at Dems to get them to vote against Alito, who wouldn't affirm ...

the separation of powers and three co-equal branches of government.

I would expect Democrats to at least do the right thing when presented with an openly fascist Justice, but the wouldn't until face with tremendous public pressure.

[Contrary1]

30. Well, one reason may be that you didn't count Lieberman and Bayh as Repubs. n/t

[Tumbulu]

31. The mainstream media is completely pro the repug wrong wing agenda

even NPR gives more airtime to any repug who has anything negative to say. So the popular voice is always all trumped up with wrong wing talking points and the progressives sound silly trying to rebut their 30 second sound bites within the small time frame given them, when they are given a chance to rebut.

One answer is to take back the airwaves in rural areas so that more middle ground and progressive Senators can be elected. While Rush and Fox News rule the rural roost, we cannot make any progress.

Another is to be more clear in our message. " We are a nation of people made sick by corporate greed manifested in nutrient poor chemically altered foods whose taxable profits are not enough to actually cure the people of the diseases caused by their products and we don't know what to do."

That would be more honest.

[DainBramaged]

36. When was the last time "Hide me" Harry Reid or "No show" Nancy pelosi showed up to talk

to the media or on any of the talk shows?


I rest my case.

[tekisui]

44. That argument is as weak as it was when rw claim librul media bias.

You work within those confines. Real leaders with real guts would still be effective at framing the message and delivering the goods.

We don't have real leaders with real guts.

[Tumbulu]

73. it is not true

The wrong wingers are always on the offense and the media gives them more time. Time the interviews yourself. I did it for one week on NPR and it was 65% wrong wingers.

One cannot work within the confines of constant media attack. The media is owned by corporate america. It protects itself and not the people.

[yurbud]

33. The Democrats are not one party. They are two: progressive and corporate

when the corporate wing of the Democrats is added to the GOP that gives the corporate camp a slight overall majority.

[TheKentuckian]

35. Republicans have almost zero affirmative agenda

We want to do shit, they want tax cuts, deregulation, and a hefty military. I don't see why people cannot grasp that the difference in goals and aspirations inherently results in a tougher row to hoe.

You do realize you wish to change the status quo?

[change_notfinetuning]

52. It would help if the Chief of Staff were a real Democrat, and didn't consider

passing anything with a good title to be mission accomplished. If this is how Rahm and Obama play real chess, I wonder if I could interest them in a "friendly" game of chess.

[Sgent]

53. Filabuster rules

The filibuster only applies to certain bills/types of bills. It does not apply to budget related bills (tax cuts), and arguably doesn't apply to nominations (this is a recent use of the filibuster).

the Iraq & funding bills were supported by democrats, as was the Medicare Part D, and NCLB -- both of which had a large number of crossover votes.

[treestar]

58. No they march in lockstep

And Bush didn't need to "fight."

Sick of this bullshit.

If you want is "backbone" - that is stubbornly adhering to your leader right or wrong - then become a Repuke and fuckin' quit bashing Obama supporters for "walking in lockstep."

This is also a very Republican theme. They are forever calling Dems spineless cowards. Amazing how the circular firing squad echoes them.

[Beetwasher]

63. Good Point, These Same People Wanting "Cohesion" Slam Obama Supporters For "Marching In Lockstep"

Good. Fucking. Point.

Make up your damn minds people.

Oh, I get it, they only want "cohesion" with THEM. Everyone needs to march in lockstep with THEM and ONLY THEM.

[dionysus]

64. are you trying to imply there's some irony factor going on?

:P

[Beetwasher]

65. No Way! Not Me, Dude!

n/t

[dionysus]

66. i don't think you're being straight with me dude...

:evilgrin:

[Beetwasher]

67. It's Tough To Be Straight When You're Lower Than Whale Shit

n/t

[DainBramaged]

69. So you purpose in this thread is to act like a clown and discourage debate

how wonderfully you fill that role.

[dsc]

72. Nomination of cabinet members are almost never not approved

Only law breaking and other serious personal problems prevent it. The tax bill was through reconcilliation. Nearly all the rest were in the immediate aftermath of 9/11

[Scarsdale Vibe]

75. So they passed no domestic legislation outside reconciliation except NCLB and Medicare D.

The myth of the all-powerful Republican Senate during the Bush years is revisionist history at its finest. Just forget the privatization of Social Security, immigration reform, and Harriet Miers debacles. Republicans are invincible and Democrats are feckless. Obama's record of legislative success is far better than Bush's in his second term, and as the author acknowledges, 9/11 was exploited to the maximum extent possible in Bush's first term.