A Vacuum is Forming

[AllentownJake]

A political vacuum. Political vacuums don't exist long. Than Senator Obama did a good job in 2008 of taking advantage of the vacuum. President Obama has done a good job of opening it right up again. There is a populist rage in this country on both the left and the right. The America most people grew up, as flawed as it was is evaporating. The middle class is being destroyed. That is where most voters reside in. How we got here is not in dispute. It really wasn't liberalism or conservatism that caused this but corporatism. The Federal government making transfer payments to corporate entities of American's taxes. It has taken different forms in GOP and DNC administrations, but at the end of the day, corporatism has ruled. Deregulation, privatization, NAFTA, TARP etc all symptoms of the same problem. The culmination of corporatism is this Health Care bill. Single Payer was killed before it could be brought up for discussion, Public Option killed, and the last hail mary expanding medicare killed. What you are left with is direct corporate transfer payments where the power to tax is being transferred to a corporate entity.


One of 3 things will happen as a response to this.

1) A faux GOP populist will run in 2012 and the system will restart, kind of like the matrix with Hope and Change conservative style and more corporatism.

2) A primary challenge will occur in 2012 between someone running as the real deal of change and President Obama, whether the real deal is real or not is a crap shoot it might be another restarting of the matrix

3) There will be an independent, like Ross Perot, in 2012 that mixes conservative and liberal orthdoxy. The ability to get things done will be in question, but the attacks on both political parties will ring true.


I however, will promise you this. After promising hope and change and failing on the public option and the medicare over 55 option. Americans who are uninsured will revolt against the democratic party en masse when they get their first mandated insurance bill and their first subsequent rate hike and coverage cut the next year.

No matter what, the populist rage vacuum, will not remain unfilled for long.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Vacuums suck.

Of course, that's the problem.

[Mike Nelson]

9. great line! --nt

mmm

[bc3000]

105. Kucinich 2012

We can't waste a shot at the 2012 election with a lame-duck Obama

[Ysabela]

108. Dean/Kucinich 2012

[theFrankFactor]

62. Kick Rec and Respect!

People are starting to "get it".

[pundaint]

74. It depends on the hole you put your hose in.

I think Obama blows

[Dr.Phool]

76. So does the Earth.

It's called gravity.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

2. Corporatism IS conservatism.

Make no mistake.

[AllentownJake]

11. Corporatism is corporatism

There is a reason the "conservatives" always end 8 years scratching their head in why the government grew.

The modern GOP is corporatism and 25% of the modern democratic party is as well by evidenced by what is going on right now.

[blindpig]

52. Corporatism is Capitalism

Perhaps a little more naked and rapacious than in other times but it always returns to this virulent phase, the need for increased profits demands it. This is why reform always fails and is a dead end.The reforms of the New Deal began getting rolled back as soon as WWII and the crisis was over, the unprecedented post war economic boom, a result of being the last man standing, and the Cold War, disguised the effects, but once the Cold War was over and economic competition returned on a world scale pussyfooting would not do. So here we are again, Gilded Age Redux, just the way they like it.

[Le Taz Hot]

84. 25%?

You're generous. My estimation would be 90%. I'm too old and I've seen too much up close and personal. We have NO representation.

[alterfurz]

109. off the top of my head I was gonna say 75%...

but now that I think about it, 90% is probably closer. PS--I'm too old, too.

[napoleon_in_rags]

100. You are totally right.

Its good to hear that point made. You need the left saying government should subsidize the needy, and the right saying that the government shouldn't subsidize the needy but should let corporations prosper in order to arrive at the "compromise" position where the government subsidizes corporations. From a popular perspective its the worst of both worlds, but the Conservatives see government subsidies and think "left" the liberals see corporations getting good treatment and thinks "right". I think its just opportunistic policy, taking advantage of the divided state of the USA.

[rpannier]

92. There are many Democrats that are in the pockets of corporations as well

Many of them on our side of the political divide

[yourout]

3. And a K&R.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

4. Spot on. K&R

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tridim]

6. 2012 will be between Obama, a Teabagger and a Republican.

And Obama will destroy them both.

[AllentownJake]

8. Yes two years of mandated insurance bills to people who can't afford them

is going to be fucking awesome.

He'll be destroyed by someone promising to repeal this disaster.

[tridim]

10. Obama will not sign THAT bill.

I know you don't believe me, just stay tuned.

[AllentownJake]

12. He'll sign anything put on his desk with Healthcare reform on the cover. nt

[tridim]

14. Not if it has a mandate and zero price controls.

Wanna bet?

[AllentownJake]

He started this debate

and any conclusion that doesn't result in a cheerleading picture thread of a signing ceremony by the die hards is a loss for him.

He'll sign anything, I guarantee it.

[Control-Z]

111. I'm afraid

you might be right.

[Toots]

55. I heard it won't even go into effect until 2013

Obama will be re-elected but I won't celebrate nearly as much. I feel like I have been played for a sucker and that does not feel good.

[Romulox]

72. Read it again. The mandatory PAYMENTS start immediately.

:hi:

[Ignis]

90. See? So it's great news for Americans...

...who work in the insurance industry.

[Mike Nelson]

13. Probably, our best bet

Maybe, during a second term, he will get tougher on issues. He should be taking Joe Lieberman to the public woodshed. He should come out strongly for marriage equality.

[tridim]

15. He still has 3 years left in his first term.

[Mike Nelson]

19. and he's NOT George W. Bush!

I think, if he made some dramatic changes, the country would go along.

Like, he could publically ask Joe Lieberman to resign. Something to really ROCK the boat. People are so sick of the SOS.

[sendero]

45. Not a chance..

... Obama will be beat by any Republican that runs - the talk only works so long. When you've been in office 4 years and accomplished jack shit, the talk falls on deaf ears.

[JVS]

51. If a teabagger shows up, there will be a green party blitz

[Blasphemer]

87. Quite true... nt

[The Hope Mobile]

93. Which would be awesome . . .

I'd like Dean and Wes Clark to run under Green party.

[The Hope Mobile]

94. dupe

[freddie mertz]

53. And we will all be losers, as always.

[Fading Captain]

68. You might be right. Which is good for right wing populists. But it sucks for us

We sit on the sidelines, electing a corporate dickhead who spits in our faces and laughs at us.

[abelenkpe]

80. I worry that it will be Ron Paul

That bigoted twit gets far too much attention from independents and liberals.

[Lorien]

96. Obama may not run in 2012. He has said himself that "The people will

decide if I RUN for a second term" not the standard "The people will decide if I GET a second term". And I do think that if a decent third party liberal candidate runs they may be a strong contender. Personally, I won't be fooled again.

[Raster]

7. And it won't be a Dyson.

That's gonna suck.

[mike_c]

16. not to worry, it won't go into effect until AFTER the next presidential election....

You know, until today I couldn't figure out why the HELL that was.

edit-- I'm assuming, of course, that the timeline in the House bill is retained.

[HughMoran]

17. We knew about the Medicare over 55 option for all but a week, now it's all we ever wanted?

Really, I do enjoy all the puff-up-the-chest bravado in so many posts today. Sadly, it's dissipating my anger at Lieberman and other Democratic Senators and is making me feel hopeless. Not because our Dems are so pathetic (because they are), but because the grass roots that DU is supposed be also is as unorganized, scatter brained and basically as useless as Congress. DU is worthless when it comes to political activism - it's just a place where people come to scream their fool heads off.

[AllentownJake]

18. I view it as a canary in a coal mine

The other one, is the local activist I talk to, they put on a good face in public, they say different things at Christmas parties.

[HughMoran]

21. What the FUCK good are activists if they fritter their energy away in private?

Most people I talk to think that DU is a fringe site. I try to argue otherwise, but there are just too many "out there" viewpoints here for the average American to deal with. Activist with a good face in public? That's more of the same. What the fuck good are activists if they don't ACTIVATE anybody through their ACTIONS!! DU is a private party. Your local activist needs to be drunk to speak his/her mind. Seriously, we're a bunch of lame-os. If DUErs/activists/progressives have something to sell, THEN FUCKING SELL IT!!!!! Otherwise it's just so much whining.

[AllentownJake]

23. So how do you think the average American who is uninsured is going to react

When the bill is enacted, the receive a package of 4 overprices health insurance plans to pick from the worst of which has a high deductible and a 60% coverage ratio.

These same people went out to the polls and volunteered for the hope of relief and got fucked.

Or what do you think the 20 something kid who got involved for his first time is going to say who is underemployed because the banks the President has bailed out and supported for his first term destroyed the employment situation in this country when he gets the same package.

FUCK is the only word I can think of.

[HughMoran]

27. That coverage is only slightly worse that what I was offered. Cost? $36,000/year

Under this plan, my company owner will drop the company insurance and pay a stipend to those who go out and get it through the exchanges. Based on this site http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx, I will be able to get good insurance for ~ $15k per year on either House or Senate proposal. Me/company will save $20k/yr. My company will save enough to hire more people - and we won't have to worry how old they are or if they have a family to cover.

You make some good points against this, but please also remember that there are many thousands of people working at small companies who will benefit from this. Do you you know what my company owner told me today? They said that they pray every day that healthcare reform will get passed. We both bemoaned the loss of the PO & Medicare options, but we realize that the part we need most isn't related to these measures - and neither are the issues you raised.

[AllentownJake]

29. You honestly think this will benefit people?

You think that the owners haven't manipulated it this way. Look at the past 30 years of regulation, which direction has it gone, to make things stronger, or lighter after enacted.

[HughMoran]

36. You know it will

It has good and bad, but you can't with a straight face tell me that what Harkin just said on Rachel is "nothing".

[AllentownJake]

37. It will evaporate like mist

leaving you beholden to pay taxes to Aetna.

[HughMoran]

38. It may

Maybe we will take over Aetna, Cigna, BCBS & others and burn them to the ground - you never know.

[AllentownJake]

39. Dick Durbin just voted no on drug imports

Who knows why the hell he did that.

[HughMoran]

42. I don't know the details

I know the savings are good, but I'm not sure what the long-term results would be.

[laughingliberal]

30. The public option was dead. It was the last shred of any attempt to offer any alternative to the

insurance crime cartels. We couldn't even hang on to that? A pox on all their houses!

[JDPriestly]

89. We really want single payer. We compromised that to support a public option.

Then we compromised that to support a Medicare buy-in. I cannot and will not support health care insurance reform without either single payer, a public option or a Medicare buy-in because without one or the other of those provisions, the reform is just a huge robbery. It robs from ordinary Americans and gives to the insurance corporations who will, with their additional billions just have a tighter stranglehold on our political process.

The corporations are oppressing us. It's that simple. This just another way in which they are oppressing us.

No, I am not a socialist. But neither am I a corporatist. I am a capitalist. I believe in a free enterprise system in which those who own businesses and those who work for businesses are responsible for what they do.

The corporation was invented to limit the liability of the owners of a business for their own actions. If you read the law of corporations or take a course in it, you will realize that the point of forming a corporation is to limit the liability of the shareholders or owners. Corp. Law 101.

Corporations are essentially irresponsible, immoral entities. That is inherent in their purpose and function -- to shield the owners from responsibility.

Capitalism is based on investors owning the risks they take, investing responsibly so as to get the highest return. The sole owner of a business is a responsible person. The business form that he has chosen does not let him off the hook if he makes a mistake or does something wrong. It is harder for him to cheat.

We want a public option or Medicare because they are an alternative to corporate health care. The government is not as responsible as a small business owner, but at least every two to six years, individuals in government positions have to answer to us for what the government does.

We do not want irresponsible, unresponsive corporations managing our health care. That is why we do not want this bill. It does nothing about the core problem which is that irresponsible corporations are managing and controlling our health care, corporations that do not answer to us in any way. In fact, this bill will give us fewer alternatives to the corporate health care system we now have because it requires everyone to buy some form of corporate health care.

The bank bail-outs just gave away our money to irresponsible corporations. That was bad enough. But this bill surrenders our very lives to the corporations. No, we will not accept this bill. It is so bad that no bill at all is better.

[StarfarerBill]

20. There's another long, dark night coming, I'm afraid.

And the vast majority of us will be getting the short end of the stick.

Our leaders blew it big time, and we let them do it...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. I think option 3 is a real possibility. Which could be an opportunity for a left party.

With the Democrats and Republicans both running slightly moderate candidates, and another moderate 3rd party, a party of the left could become the swing vote.

Now, THAT, would make for an interesting election.

[AllentownJake]

24. All we need is a billionaire with a heart

a mind for deficit control, and a heart for his countrymen.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. All we need is for enough people to get fed up with "politics as usual".

Which seems to be happening.

[AllentownJake]

28. The problem is for the past 30 years

The scumbags have figured out a way to infiltrate both parties and enact their agenda. People get mad at one they elect the other and in the GOP the "compassionate conservatives" take over and in the DNC the DLC swine start writing policy. Both are meant to benefit big business.

There are few conservatives or liberals in congress or the executive branch, different shades of corporatist.

[Citizen Kang]

102. yeah, and

a willingness to take a bullet to the brain. The Banksters/Corporatists will never allow another "outsider" to be president.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

25. Excellent OP

[Laelth]

31. k&r for the truth, however depressing. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[branders seine]

32. this debacle and betrayal by the democrats

will prove to be the opposite of the two generations of goodwill Democrats earned after FDR and the New Deal.

[grantcart]

33. on the other side there will be an open war between evangelistic Republicans

and the Republican establishment.

[AllentownJake]

34. The evangelicals used to be with us

Till Jerry Fallwel and Pat Roberts convinced them Jesus was a capitalist. If only more of them read the first four books of their New Testament.

[laughingliberal]

35. k & r n/t

[dysfunctional press]

40. don't forget about the escalation in vietghanistan...

when 2012 rolls around- if we still have 10's of thousands of troops there, and especially if they're still taking casualties on a fairly regular basis, it's going to be another stinking rotting albatross carcass hanging on obama's neck.

if we're REALLY lucky- we'll have an open primary in 2012, and a progressive firebrand who can move people's emotions and opinions. kind of like bill clinton- but much more of a real democrat, not a dlc poseur.

[AllentownJake]

44. I'm leaving out banking as well

My favorite topic.

[ljm2002]

41. Could not agree more...

...Nature abhors a vacuum.

K&R

[MissMarple]

43. We do agree.

[G_j]

46. remember,

[AllentownJake]

47. The chart has been looking worse and worse since Ronald Reagan.

[cherokeeprogressive]

48. Let's hope it's not a Dyson. Those bad boys just keep on suckin'! n/t

[Jim Sagle]

75. We don't have a Dyson, we've got a Hoover.

;(

[Ikonoklast]

85. Ouch.

I don't agree with you much, Jim, but that one was dead on the mark.

We needed an FDR who would take bold action, and even bolder leadership, and it looks like we got none of that.

[Shagbark Hickory]

49. None of the abouve. Agree with the premise tho. nt

[AllentownJake]

50. Kick

[a kennedy]

54. Seriously if I hear the word "change" one more time.....I think I'm gonna hurl

:puke: :puke: :puke:

[calico1]

63. I think most of use misunderstood what was meant by

"change."

What I think it really means is after we get screwed over, all we will have in our pockets is a little change.

:banghead:

[CrispyQ]

73. Hope & Change - as one DUer put it:

I hope Obama makes the right decision for a change.

[MSchreader]

56. Oh, yeah! Let them pass this monstrosity!

It will be the single greatest recruitment tool our organization has had since George W. Bush! The rightwingers will get a boost, but so will we communists. Bring it on!

ON EDIT: I didn't mean to get snarky like that, but this is what will happen.

[femrap]

57. I agree with your

assessment. I pray that some crackpot doesn't come along as in Germany back in the '30's.

To be frank, I don't think the US has the financial wherewithal to continue with these wars and defense contractors.

Maybe the plan was all along to create a 2 class system...the rich and the poor. I do hope that Americans focus their anger where it belongs: The Greedy.

[BrklynLiberal]

58. Thom Hartmann has said that all change starts with populist movements.

Hope you are right about the PEOPLE demanding their rights.

http://populistdemocrats.blogspot.com

http://populistdemocrats.blogspot.com/2009/03/thom-hartmann-founding-fathers-and_28.html





http://robertdfeinman.cm/society/populism.html

Populism has been one of the recurrent movements in US history. The others of contemporary relevance are Liberalism, Conservativism and Libertarianism. Lately there have been several Populist writers who have gained wide notice, including Thomas Frank and Thom Hartmann and magazines like "The Progressive". So it becomes appropriate to question whether a Populist movement can gain any meaningful influence in US politics.

By Populism I mean a belief that the average person should get a fair deal in economic life and that business should not be structured to favor an elite. In addition government policies should be aimed at a fair distribution of wealth and, at a minimum, a living wage for all.

Through much of the 18th and 19th centuries there were enough expansion possibilities in a mostly undeveloped country that many people could strike out on their own and establish themselves. This was further encouraged by the government with various homesteading programs.

Towards the end of the period, however, there arose a group of powerful, concentrated industries in steel, railroads, telegraph and the like which were able to influence government policies to their own purposes. The country got rapid industrial expansion, which benefitted everyone to some degree, but the capitalists got unprecedented wealth and control.

<snip>

[Vidar]

59. K&R.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

60. If we keep fighting and hyping these stupid wars we will have President Petraeus February 20th 2013.

- mark my words.

[krabigirl]

61. +100.

[Butch350]

64. I have man love for you buddy. NAIL hit on head!

[Kansas Wyatt]

65. They do NOT need this SHIT Bill...

To regulate the Insurance Industry. They can write laws prohibiting insurance companies from refusing pre-existing conditions and regulating their prices any time they want, without this SHIT Bill.

They DO NOT have to kill Real REFORM forever to get what the fuck they watering down this alleged reform down to. The Democratic Party is signing it's own death warrant with this scam to enrich Corporate America.

[omega minimo]

66. And why does it take things getting RILLY RILLY SHITTY to FINALLY get people's attention?!!!!!!!

............ up until that point they walk around with VACUUMS for BRAINS, not giving a shit ...... while the people who warn what's coming -- oh say BEFORE THE ELECTION --- or AFTER TWO ELECTIONS ARE STOLEN --- or when IMPEACHMENT is relevant ..... are ALWAYS told




"People will care when it affects them."

:rant: thanks at LOT. SHEEPLE!! :evilfrown: Populist, my ass.

[Eyerish]

67. K&R n/t

[boomerbust]

69. The middle class IS being destroyed?

Wrong Mr. Jake, the middle class was destroyed the day Bush walked into the White House.

[DemReadingDU]

70. middle class was destroyed, beginning with de-regulation

and destroyed by off-shoring jobs

[patrice]

71. You left out that the "Independent" could be a phony too, so the question is how to actually get

something different to happen, without hurting a whole lot of people.

It appears to me that the last part of that is usually ignored by folks demanding change & hope on the grounds that someone is hurting, but if that really is the justification (and not just simply a drive toward power), then how do we justify helping those who are hurting, by destroying EVERYTHING (even the good stuff) that's goin' on and hurting a whole bunch of other people too.

***IF*** the rationale is that it is bad to hurt people, then you and your "hope" and "change" can't hurt people.

And if you do hurt people, then you're just as much a bunch of lying hypocrits as what we have goin' on right now.

So maybe we just better lay aside all of this high-minded stuff and start with what is real about at least some of what we see going on here with these 3 (or 4) things that could happen? Start with

"This is a drive toward POWER. Hope and Trust us inspite of the pain we are going to cause you and MAYBE someday(!?!?!??) things will actually be different."

[nini]

77. so, Democrats will lose to a party that did everything it could to do nothing?

Yes, I know the American people are that stupid.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

78. Do you believe the Dem's

they are being marched out to say pass the Bill and make incremental changes.

I heard the Bill is going to be subject to a yearly something or other, Senator Rockefeller on MSNBC during Andrea Mitchell, leading me to believe these incremental changes or not are scheduled in the Bill yearly.

It makes me wonder why after a year they would settle on such a compromised Bill.

Or maybe we are right, we're F'ed.



I'm only voting Green from now on.

[SlipperySlope]

79. I think that the "independent" might be the last best hope.

Many progressives feel betrayed by Obama so far.
Many conservatives felt betrayed by the things Bush did.

Maybe an independent could have a shot next time? It would really depend on how they staked out their positions and how they mixed traditional progressive, conservative, and middle-of-the road politics.

Who knows? And who can really predict where Obama will be in public opinion in three years?

[chill_wind]

81. K & R

[dreamnightwind]

82. We need a new coalition

As much of a leftist as I am, I don't believe there are or will be enough leftists in this country to win any kind of real power in the timeframe needed to avoid real disaster.

At this point, I think we need to distill our needs down to the essentials, and go with a subset of our ideology that will also resonate with the disaffected right.

It's a bitter pill, but at this point necessary.

Our only chance is an anti-corporate populism that separates itself from the left-right divide. The corporate-populist divide is more important at this point in our history.

Once we have control back from the corporatists, we can resume our ideological battles with the right. Until then, we need them on our side.

The corporate wing of the right has anticipated this possibility, and that's what's behind the tea-party astro-turfing. They're making sure no real, anti-corporate movement gets any traction.

Their corporate roots are easily exposed, and a carefully constructed left-right anti-corporate coalition can still emerge to give power back to the people. But as the OP says, there's a vacuum, and we'd better get moving fast on this, or we won't like what fills the void one bit.

[girl_interrupted]

83. AllentownJake.... You're right K&R

[highplainsdem]

86. K & R

[democracy1st]

88. K & R

[grahamhgreen]

91. 4) a Democratic Socialist will run as a Social Democrat in the Democratic Party

[Lorien]

95. I think there are more possibilities than just those three

the teabaggers may run a candidate to split the GOP vote, and if an organized liberal third party runs a viable candidate they may split the Democratic vote. I kind of doubt that Obama will run for a second term, given some of his comments on the topic.

[valerief]

97. We wanted hope and change. We got chump change. And a hefty tab. nt

[MissDeeds]

98. K&R

This all does indeed suck. :-(

[DemoTex]

99. Nature abhors a vacuum ..

[postulater]

110. What is that? A whore vacuuming nature?

[conspirator]

101. What middle class? nt

[PreacherCasey]

103. At this point, I'll take number three. We need a return to strict adherence to the constitution.

Obama promised it during the campaign, and he hasn't delivered. It is for this that I am most upset with him. He knows better!

The military (read: Northcom), homeland security, and local police build-ups with federal $$$ have me worried, especially with the specters of "terrorism" and economic collapse looming.

All men and women of conscience need to stick together. A third party candidates from either the right or left who could be trusted on this score will definitely get my serious consideration.

[Major Hogwash]

104. Excellent article, and the truth about it is, once the bell is rung, it cannot be unrung.

Not only have they pissed on poor people, but they have pissed on the sick and the elderly at the same time.

Is that what FDR stood for?

I think not.
Obama has dropped the reins of this horse and it is obvious to the rest of us who are paying attention - not members of the flagwaving, warmongering hoard of apologists for Obama.

[polichick]

106. Perfectly said. If Dems want to stay in power...

...we'd better draft the best populist we can for 2012 - and that doesn't look like the prez at this moment.


k&r

[braunfels]

107. AllentownJake Nailed It

Next years rate hikes and coverage reductions are not going to be swallowed. Obama and the dems will pay the price for this ripoff. I predict Romney will be the "moderate" to benefit from all this.

[glitch]

112. if privatization of Medicare is a goal of this administration then Obama doesn't need a second term

Mission accomplished.

First President "of color" (at least he's proving skin color is irrelevant, which actually is a good thing), and most bestest DLCer ever.

Doubleplus Good!

[XemaSab]

113. You're exactly right

As you may know, I have been to a few Tea Party meetings.

Thought I don't agree with them, I think they're right to be angry with the right.

I could totally see a third party coming out of their numbers.