Hugo Chavez Brings Down the House in Copenhagen

[Goldstein1984]

From the Herald Tribune, Australia:

President Chavez brought the house down.

When he said the process in Copenhagen was “not democratic, it is not inclusive, but isn’t that the reality of our world, the world is really and imperial dictatorship…down with imperial dictatorships” he got a rousing round of applause.

When he said there was a “silent and terrible ghost in the room” and that ghost was called capitalism, the applause was deafening.

But then he wound up to his grand conclusion – 20 minutes after his 5 minute speaking time was supposed to have ended and after quoting everyone from Karl Marx to Jesus Christ - “our revolution seeks to help all people…socialism, the other ghost that is probably wandering around this room, that’s the way to save the planet, capitalism is the road to hell....let’s fight against capitalism and make it obey us.” He won a standing ovation.

UPDATE

And at the end of this first clip, Chavez rouses the rabble with more anti-Americanism, too:

I don’t think Obama is here yet. He got the Nobel Peace Prize almost the same day as he sent 30,000 soldiers to kill innocent people in Afghanistan.

****************

I'm not promoting Hugo Chavez, although I really enjoyed his "sulfur" comment, but the words "let's fight against capitalism and make it obey us" sounded a little like what we need to do. Chavez also shares my view of Afghanistan.

[CBGLuthier]

1. anti americanism? plain simple statement of fact

[Vincardog]

15. HE is an american. How can he be anti american?

[DavidDvorkin]

29. Foolish word play

Anti-American = anti-United States. That's the way the term is used.

Your post is similar to those that claim that an Arab can't be an anti-Semite because Arabs are Semites, too -- ignoring what the term means and how it's used.

[RedCloud]

37. Tú no entiendes nada ni nadita de nada.

Todos son americanos. Tú no tienes monopolio sobre esta palabra. Hay conferencia de Las Américas.

O si desea más respeto, le trato de usted (sin chiste de animal)

¡Aprenda usted para que no se aburra!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoiUtWieuyU

[Indenturedebtor]

45. Oh no? What besides Guerro do people south of Texas call Americans?

And try not to be snide please...

[EFerrari]

65. Most Americans south of Texas do not call us Americans.

:)

[Marr]

86. I've heard Norte Americano pretty often.

[Xicano]

116. Gringo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gringo

[timo]

123. hahahah

gabacho, pinche gringo, racisto culero, pendejo, la migra, puto madre, rascuatche blanco, I have heard lots of names besides guerro :)

[Indenturedebtor]

139. Heh well there's those too n/t

[EFerrari]

173. You forgot jankee.

lol

[EFerrari]

79. "Ni nadita de nada"

I haven't heard that in a long, long time.

Saludes, RedCloud.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

32. I like Chavez. There I said it.

[roamer65]

34. Me 2.

[truth2power]

149. Me 3.

[dipsydoodle]

152. Me 4

.

[sabrina 1]

35. I like Chavez also. He's quite popular around the world

Only in the US is Chavez constantly being trashed. US interests in South American countries mean they must have compliant, puppet governments, preferably dictators. The only problem the US has with Chavez is his refusal to sell his country's resources to the highest bidder. We always have problems with leaders of oil rich countries who put their countries' needs first and who dare to think that the resources they are sitting on actually belong to them.

The US however, has no problem supporting brutal dictators like Islam Karamov in Uzbekistan because he IS willing to do what he is told in return for his own personal gain.

I don't think the world cares too much what we think of Chavez. I think the US interest in Chavez doesn't fool anyone. If there was no oil there, we wouldn't care what he did or didn't do and everyone knows it. We don't have that much influence anymore.

He's a truth-teller. He didn't hesitate to tell the world when the CIA backed an attempted coup against him, eg. Instead of 'learning a lesson', he taught THEM a lesson. He's a brave guy as there are many who would cheer if he were to meet with an 'accident' of some sort.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

40. Just a question

In your opinion, how many South American dictators are there? I only ask because you said the U.S. prefers South American countries be ruled by dictators.

[sabrina 1]

62. Well, there a lot fewer now than there used to be. Many S.A.

countries have finally managed to get rid of the dictatorships that plagued them for so long. I think one good thing that resulted from the Bush administration's pre-occupation with the ME was that they could not spend as much time interfering in S. A. They tried with Venezuela, but the people there re-installed their elected president. And the US was involved in getting two wars going elsewhere at the time. Lucky for Venezuela.

But there are still some puppet governments there. Uribe, a man accused of genocide against his own people, would fit that category. Not sure I'd call him a dictator, but puppet he is and dangerous to democracy. The US while it trashes Chavez, gives Uribe a pass because he serves their interests. I'm sure if he ever got an attack of conscience about Colombia becoming independent of US influence, he'd find himself being arrested for war crimes. Chavez has no such history, so the propaganda against him is generally more to paint him as crazy.

But over all, I think what has been happening in S.A. is wonderful, ending dictatorship in many countries and diminishing the influence of the US and its CIA operatives there. We are still however, interfering as much as possible, and the constant anti-Chavez propaganda here is not to be taken lightly. Venezuela is an oil rich country and the US PTBs tend to believe that they have a right to profit from other people's oil. Chavez knows they were behind the coup. In more serious moments, he has said that he knows he could be assassinated. It would not be a first for the US in that region of the world. We don't like 'left' leaning leaders.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

94. That's sort've the thing

If promoting South American dictatorships were truly something the U.S. strongly desired today, they'd still exist. After all, it's a hell of a lot cheaper to back a General on the slide than it is to overtly invade and occupy a country. Frankly (and I know this will get a lot of criticism) U.S. foreign policy in South America from the 1950s until the fall of the Soviet Union must have that Cold War factor acknowledged. Since that time, the U.S. has generally been more apt to accept democratic outcomes in South American elections.

Secondly, while I have little doubt that the coup in Venezuela was known to the Bush Administration beforehand, I've yet to see convincing evidence that they were the ones who got the ball rolling on this one. Chavez has plenty of internal enemies, none of which required orders from Washington before organizing in their own best self-interest. Maybe that evidence will emerge one day, but until then, I'm skeptical.

Third, is Uribe a puppet or is he acting in his own self-interest? There's a difference, one that many posters on this board overlook.

Fourth, as far as assassinations go, it tends to depend on who is in the State Dept. and who is Pres. I see little evidence thus far that the Obama Administration is overly eager to interfere with Venezuelan politics, despite Chavez' constant ravings.

[Usrename]

99. Do you know who Otto Reich is?

Do you know who is behind the recent coup in Honduras?

Do you know what the School of the Americas is?

Do you think we have a shadow government, and if so, would this include many of the same conspirators that were convicted and pardoned for crimes as far back as Iran/Contra?

[DutchLiberal]

121. At this moment, there's just one dictator in Latin-America: Micheletti...

Roberto Micheletti, who came to power after President Zelaya was ousted in a military coup d'état in Honduras. After initially supporting President Zelaya, the Obama-administration quickly began to equal the coup-regime with the legitimate president, by setting up a puppet show called 'negotiations' headed by Oscar Arias. Then Hillary Clinton began to criticize President Zelaya for trying to return to his country to be with his people. Then Obama made a total turn by recognizing the fraudulent 'elections' of November 29, in Honduras.

Many Latin-American leaders had hoped Obama would be different. But they could have known from history that it doesn't matter whether a Democrat or a Republican is president. And they could have known Obama was going to be worthless when he appointed Iran-Contra veteran Robert Gates as his Secretary of Defense.

[JNelson6563]

97. Yes, you are correct.

If Hugo had carried lots of debt with the IMF and met their terms to sell all the natural resources to corporations (among other things) then there wouldn't be efforts to overthrow him by the CIA and the broad anti-Chavez campaign that so many buy into wouldn't have materialized.

Julie

[DutchLiberal]

120. That's not true. Dutch media and politicians trash Chavez all the time...

And the University of Westminster just completed a study that concludes that the BBC is also demonizing Chavez.

[RedCloud]

36. Yes our constitution dictates we be a capitalist empire. Oh wait, it doesn't.

We've been tricked for centuries!

[Renew Deal]

2. This write up reminds me of this:

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6545155/Dwights_speech

[Unvanguard]

3. I am not a supporter of capitalism, but this is silly and useless.

We are going to have to deal with climate change within the framework of global capitalism. No one should pretend otherwise.

[EFerrari]

11. Global capitalism doesn't want to deal with climate change.

Did you see what Hillary was sent to do at Copenhagen?

I don't think talking about this problem in terms of capitalism communicates very well but it sure is true.

[Unvanguard]

23. No, it doesn't. It's an uphill battle.

But trying to abolish global capitalism is more like trying to levitate. It's not going to happen--certainly not within the time frame within which we need action on climate change.

[Greyhound]

14. That "framework" ensures it will not be addressed. n/t

[Vincardog]

16. Right just as we will deal with Health CARE needs by rewarding the PArasitic Insurance Companies

[Black-Eyed Susan]

101. Impossible

by definition.

It all must come down.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

4. K+

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

5. Says the dictator of one of the largest oil producers in the world. Imagine Chavez a hypocrite.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. I personally don't like enemies of free speech.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

31. No lies, he is a dictator and an enemy of free speech.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

41. While I certainly don't consider him a dictator I do see some irony in his statements

After all, his country's economy is heavily based on oil exports.

[EFerrari]

80. That's simply incorrect.

He's been transparently elected every time and the Venezuelan press is not censored. It is, like ours, largely owned by the right wing.

[mudplanet]

81. Jesus, Dave, read a book.

Chavez is such a dictator that he was re-elected by an overwhelming majority in an election with more credibility than any US presidential election in thirty years.

As to free speech - if Chavez is an enemy of free speech, why is there such a thriving independent anit-Chavez media in Venezuela? Unlike the media climate in all those "free and democratic" countries in Latin America that the US has been supporting for fifty years, such as Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador. In those countries you can print or broadcast anything you want (called freedom) but if you offend the right wing you're a dead motherfucker.

[EFerrari]

84. My grandmother was the wife of a general officer in El Salvador

who eventually became the Secretary of Defense. She criticized the right wing throughout their marriage in print under a pseudonym. My grandma had herself some ovarian fortitude.

(So maybe my loudmouthedness is genetic. lol )

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

98. Many dictators are re-elected by an overwhelming majority.

Overwhelming majorities are easy to come by when you kill those who oppose you.

[EFerrari]

110. There is zero evidence the Chavez government has ever done that.

In fact, when his supporters wanted to defend Miraflores during the coup, he told them to stand down.

[DutchLiberal]

125. Who has Chavez ordered to be killed?

Why don't you back up your crazy assertions?

[mudplanet]

151. Maybe so, but Chavez hasn't done any killing of opposition figures.

Quite the opposite. He's been scrupulously tolerant and made a point of following the law.

[Usrename]

138. Have you been watching FOX News or what?

Who told you this stuff? Really, where did you hear this?

A government decision not to renew the public broadcast license of private television station RCTV (which still transmits via cable and satellite), due to its consistent violations of Venezuela's Law on Responsibility in Television and Radio and active participation in the April 2002 military coup against Chavez, sparked an opposition outcry in May last year that there is "no freedom of expression" in Venezuela.

However, despite these claims, the vast majority of radio, television and print media remains in the private hands and are openly hostile to the government.

Gil argued that the Venezuelan people truly learnt the value of community TV during the military coup when the opposition forcefully shutdown media outlets such as Catia TV and state-owned Channel 8, while RCTV and other private TV channels broadcast false information.

Many government supporters argue that all the TV stations that actively participated in the military coup should be shut down and handed over to the people.

In recent weeks grass roots community groups have lodged a complaint with the Supreme Court calling for opposition private TV station, Globovision, to be investigated for violating media laws, saying it blatantly lies and manipulates information.

Even government opponents have slammed Globovision; a February 12 post on opposition blog site, Caracas Chronicles, criticized Globovision for its "frequently amateurish and breathlessly partisan reporting, at its role in keeping oppo supporters cooped up in a claustrophobic little bubble of know-nothing anti-Chávez fundamentalism."

http://www.reclaimthemedia.org/communications_rights/venezuela_strengthens_communit%3D5805

the google is your friend, hopefully you can read up on Venezuela media

The Organic Telecommunications Law, which was passed in June 2000, states that there are three types of broadcast media in Venezuela: private, state and community. The law gives legal recognition to community broadcasting, enabling it to receive special tax breaks. In order to be recognized as a community broadcaster, the programming has to meet the following criteria. Principally, the station must be non-profit and dedicated to the community, with the requirement that 70% of its programming must be produced within the community. Also, there must be a separation between the station and its programming, which means that the station itself may only produce 15%, leaving the remainder to be produced by community volunteers. In addition, the station must provide training to community members so the production of media is accessible to everyone. The law also states that the directors of the community media cannot be party officials, members of the military, or work for private mass media.<3>

Although the Constitution of Venezuela recognizes community media, prior to the April 2002 coup against the Chávez government, these small television, radio and newspaper resources did not receive much attention from the state. While the community media normally supported the Chávez government, active support was not provided. At first, the primary goals of community centers were the right to exist and operate openly in society. Before Chávez was elected president, participating in community media was a clandestine activity and a victimized form of freedom of speech; homes and offices that housed community radio stations were often raided and operators feared for their lives. Community media stations have since multiplied, amplifying the voices of individuals and communities, increasing community communication and cohesion, fostering cultural awareness and political participation, and increasingly meeting the positive freedom of speech rights of Venezuelans. A new form of participatory communication based on local experiential knowledge is gaining popularity and influence.<4>

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4678

"We are battling for the dignity of the people and for the future of our youth. Go for the truth, criticize the government, criticize Chavez, criticize the ministers, criticize the enemy, attack hard and organized!" - Hugo Chavez

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

150. If that sounds like freedom to you, you have serious problems.

[mudplanet]

153. Dave. Dave. Dave. This is the reality-based community. Show us

some credible evidence of a pattern of repression and maybe we'll have a discussion.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

155. Go to the 9/11 forum and the health forum and come back and tell me how reality based it is.

[Forkboy]

156. Not even a good dodge.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

157. Did he take control of radio stations that disagreed with his policies? Yes.

Is that repression of free speech? Yes.

[EFerrari]

163. Actually, he didn't. The government gave those radio stations

a grace period to get in compliance with Venezuelan ownership disclosure law and some refused.

That's not repression of free speech. That's law enforcement.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

166. So laws can't be used to restrict speech? Interesting. I disagree though.

[EFerrari]

169. It was twisted that way. There are plenty of outlets that criticize him.

Are you kidding? Venezuelans are like us. :)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

170. Seriously though how is your brother doing?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

158. Is Human Rights Watch a legitimate enough source?

http://www.hrw.org/americas/venezuela

[EFerrari]

164. How far out into the weeds do you want to go?

I Can't Believe It's Not Human Rights Watch!
September 25th 2008, by Elizabeth Ferrari - OpEdNews

As Americans, we operate from a position of privileged naivete, a kind of concrete operational thinking: we believe things are what they are called especially when it comes to public life. If someone reads us a bill called "No Child Left Behind", we go ahead and assume it will help children. If an act named the "Help America Vote Act" passes, we expect that our elections just got better. The Heritage Foundation is surely an organization that has something to do with colonial hardiness and a can-do spirit. There is nothing more sad than we are when we learn, against all reason, that NCLB is a hijacking of our schools by privateers or that HAVA makes our elections vastly more vulnerable or that The Heritage Foundation is a right wing propaganda mill that is every day finding better ways to funnel our tax money into corporate wallets with a nakedness that Lady Godiva could only aspire to.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3830

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

167. How is your brothers situation?

[EFerrari]

175. If you think that yanks my chain, I'm afraid you're mistaken.

:)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

176. It honestly sounded like a horrible situation and I inquired in your post about him.

Just because we disagree on things doesn't mean I can't hope the best for your brother.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftstreet]

9. He was elected. Dictators aren't elected

But then you know that

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. And every election is fair and none of them are ever rigged. LOL.

[Better Today]

28. Since some of his ideas were killed in elections, I'd say no worse than say . . . USA.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. You seem to understand.

[EFerrari]

54. Venezuela's voting systems are much better than ours.

Hand counted paper ballots in public with a big audit and international observers.

[rollingrock]

49. The elections in afghanistan and Honduras

were most certainly not free and fair according to international election monitors, although the US government and corporate interests certainly liked the results. the election of Chavez, on the other hand, are widely recognized as legitimate by the international community...hell, even the Bush administration didn't disputed the outcome of chavez'a victory. you have no idea what you're talking about.

I have no opinion of Chavez one way or the other, but he was legitimately elected.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

50. The same international community recognized the Bush election as legitimate.

[EFerrari]

51. Actually, it didn't. The Carter Center said it couldn't observe one of ours

because our voting systems are so bad.

Venezuela has clean elections, does a big audit and has obsevers. We should do the same.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. The Carter Center is now the international community. Who knew.

[EFerrari]

55. If you're in Venezuela, they are.

lol

:)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

115. How is your brother doing?

[EFerrari]

161. He got home from work at about 1 am this morning

and has been out with his girls since 8 am. Then, he has a show tonight.

I don't know, Dave. He's still trying to find a sane solution to all of this and it breaks my heart. He's a good guy and I wish better for him.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

177. I'm glad he is seeing his girls. I sincerely hope he gets some financial relief.

[rollingrock]

56. The US didn't have international election monitors until 2004

and by that time, US elections were impossible to monitor because in 2004 elections in the US became completely computerized...and electronic elections by their nature are impossible to monitor meaningfully.

[LanternWaste]

113. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc...

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc... every single argument you've made on this particular topic.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

117. No not really.

Arguing that the international community proves that Chavez was legitimately elected doesn't hold much water when that "international community" is the Carter Center. Given the fact that Bush was recognized around the world as the legitimate US President it just doesn't prove what the poster hopes to prove.

[DutchLiberal]

122. According to hundreds of American and European observers: yes.

Including the Carter Centre in the USA.

But maybe Fox News knows better? :shrug:

[Vincardog]

17. How is he a hypocrite? IS it because he keeps his promises to his people?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

43. Well, no, it's because his country runs on oil.

[Better Today]

7. I think that the idea that Chavez's comments brought about that

level of response should be a strong warning to all of the neo-capitalists in our Western developed society. The idea that so many in so many countries feel the same way.. . and are willing to express it in such a public manner tells me they are no longer shivering in fear of USA anymore. That's good.

[EFerrari]

8. Bingo. n/t

[Swamp Rat]

12. Yep.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

44. It seems to me Chavez's speech was less about working towards a solution

than about boosting his own status. Anyway, where are these non-capitalist countries who are leading the way on climate change?

[ljm2002]

10. "Chavez rouses the rabble with more anti-Americanism"...

...well I'm not sure what to think of Chavez overall, I have a huge sympathy for his advocacy for the poor and policies that help the poor; while I am dubious of his military background and tendency to aggregate power to himself.

But I will say this: with the state of the world today, there will be more and more rabble rousing. I consider it inevitable. The real question is, who is going to rouse the rabble: right wing demagogues, or left wing demagogues? neither? both? something entirely new and different? (one can only hope) Who will control the message?

We will not get the change we need under the current regime, here or elsewhere. The corporate overlords are tightening their grip, the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and the environment is going to hell faster than anyone imagined even 10 years ago. The status quo ain't cutting it, something's gotta give. These are perilous times, but as the Chinese know, danger is another name for opportunity. Who will take the opportunity, and will it be a net positive or a net negative? Stay tuned...

[ShortnFiery]

13. No, America is not "all about capitalism." We need to focus on community and the American Culture

of giving that made us great in the past. Not Crony Capitalism of which our ruling elites weld over the population like an big stick.

[Judi Lynn]

83. There's no mystery about his military career. What's not to grasp? It's public record.

Take some time to read a biography, or do research. Too many people around who served with him, for there to be any secrecy about his history. It's not as if he checked in with his unit, then dropped out of sight like _{George W. Bush.}

Condensed military history:

Chávez was a standout baseball player as a teen, a talent that helped gain him entry into the country's elite military academy. From there he joined the army and advanced through its ranks to head an elite paratrooper unit. Rankled by the corruption among the officer class—bribery and payoffs had become common currency at nearly all levels of Venezuelan life—Chávez formed a secret anti-corruption organization in the late 1980s with other disgruntled officers. He captured international attention on February 4, 1992, when he commanded a force of 12,000 troops in a coup against President Carlos Andrés Pérez. The insurrection was suppressed, "but not before Chávez, in an unforgettable televised jeremiad, denounced the moral and economic rot at the heart of that once-so-hopeful republic. He became an immediate hero," wrote Benjamin Moser in Newsweek International. For leading the coup, he was sentenced to prison.

The notoriously corrupt Pérez regime eventually fell byitself through the impeachment process. Years later, Chávez explained his reasoning behind his bid for power. "Here was a country full of gold, oil, iron, aluminum, water and fertile lands, yet 80 percent of the population was living in poverty," he told Joseph Contreras in Newsweek International. Released from jail in 1994, he became active in the political organization that he and other soldiers had founded, the Bolivarian Revolutionary Movement.

http://biography.jrank.org/pages/3045/Ch-vez-Hugo-1954-President-Childhood-in-Farming-Village.html

[and-justice-for-all]

18. Well said and I agree..nt

[Vidar]

19. Bravo Chavez!

[NoSheep]

20. there was a “silent and terrible ghost in the room” and that ghost was called capitalism

AMEN

[Duende azul]

21. Finally someone said it.

[EFerrari]

22. I hope someone posts the video clip.

[Odin2005]

24. Says an Oil Despot. Hypocrite.

[ima_sinnic]

42. an "oil despot"? where do you get your "news"? from "Brainless Reactionary" magazine? (nt)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

30. Who's the rabble? And why is it rousable? -nt

[scarletwoman]

39. I'm down with Chavez. Thanks for the post. k&r (nt)

[rucky]

46. Any video? n/t

[EFerrari]

85. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=28092&mesg_id=28138

[earth mom]

47. Go Chavez-tell it like it is! nt

[Cleita]

48. Yeah, he is a mixed bag.

As an American, who was born and lived my youth in South America myself, I know it takes a gutsy person to take on the establishment there. I've always admired Chavez for that, but he does also have the aura of "el jefe" too, someone not to be messed with if you value your life. Anyway, I have nothing against him for his anti-Americanism. He's not alone there. They all hate us and we really have done some shitty things on that continent not to be proud of.

[lib2DaBone]

52. ..A few more drones on women and children.. we will be able to win their hearts and minds...

[Meldread]

57. Yay! Let's cheer for Totalitarian Demagogues! Yay!

Right Wing Totalitarian? Bad. Left Wing Totalitarian? Good!

Let's all toss away our freedoms and elect Hugo Chavez President of Planet Earth! You know, because when people say things you like to hear, it means they must be good people looking out for the little guy. History proves that fact correct! More Power Earth Emperor Chavez? Sure! We don't need those pesky term limits or checks and balances! In fact, I completely forget why we established them in the first place!

Yay! Communist Dictatorship here we come!

[EFerrari]

58. LOL. Like term limits prevented Bush from stealing two elections

or our Congress from having a higher return rate than the Politburo.

Totalitarian demagogue?

:rofl:

[Meldread]

61. At least we both seem to agree that he's a Totalitarian Demagogue.

Is Bush still in office? No. Do Republican's still control Congress? No.

It seems that the system, as faulty and imperfect as it may be, is still working.

Good luck on removing Chavez from office when the people of Venezuela begin to have second thoughts. Yay. Long term implication: Military coupe by rebels who oppose Chavez! We need more of those in South America. Yay!

Of course, not that you'd actually hear about any of that in the Venezuelan media since Chavez now controls it all!

It really leads me to wonder how many people here would support Obama if he declared that he was shredding the Constitution, shutting down all non-government controlled media outlets, silencing his critics by throwing them in prison, all in an attempt to, you know... help the little guy. Because communism is so great for the little guy. And everyone who speaks out against his actions is a foreign agent, bent on destroying the nation from within... and, of course, all true American's support him. All American's who don't are manipulated by evil foreign agents.

[EFerrari]

63. LOL. Chavez didn't do any of those things except on Faux Newz.

:)

[Meldread]

73. That's nice to know, considering I don't get Fuax Newz.

Since I blocked it off my channel listing years ago, and the only cable news network I watch is MSNBC.... and only then, Rachel Maddow (mostly).

Of course, we all know Chavez would never even THINK about shutting down independent media outlets that might not give him absolute glowing wall-to-wall coverage.

I guess the http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jul/22/world/fg-venez-censor22">LA Times are just a bunch of liars. Damn liars!

[EFerrari]

78. This conversation has been had many times here

and I'm so sorry, I'm not willing to reprise it. This board must be sick to death of my recitals on this topic.

No, he doesn't censor the media. Most of the Venezuelan media is STILL owned by the right wing oligarchy and RCTV is still on cable.

Coup Co-Conspirators as Free-Speech Martyrs
Distorting the Venezuelan media story

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3107

[DutchLiberal]

129. Yes, best to save your breath. These people don't WANT to know.

These so-called 'liberals' detest everything they see and hear on mainstream cable news --everything!-- except when it comes to Chavez. Suddenly, they believe all the MSM. I still don't know why. But there's some inexplicable cognitive dissonance going on with them.

[northzax]

134. Isn't listening to Chavez on climate change

A bit like your crack dealer lecturing you on rehab? You want to affect climate change Ina meaningful way, Hugo? Turn off the spigot and stop selling ultra-heavy crude. It's a bit rich that the guy selling us the rope to hang ourselves is bitching about us buying it.

[Gabi Hayes]

137. interesting, isn't it, when people post things that lead one to infer one of two things:

the posters are either credulous, gullible idiots, or knowing peddlers of clearly provable lies

wonder which one it is.....

[sabrina 1]

104. Well, if he ever does any of those things, I'll be

be with you. The fact is, he hasn't, but it's clear everytime they show up in any discussion of Venezuela, that the US propaganda machine when it comes to oil rich countries that are 'not cooperative' with big oil, is alive and well.

And why do you think it is in the interests of the US to continue to lie about Venezuela, or even to care what the people of Venezuela choose to do as far as who they elect? I think the answer is simple, if you think about it at all. And even if you don't, a little research would at least raise questions about how that country is portrayed here.

[Union Yes]

60. I'll take that 'Totalitarian Demagogue' over a corporate owned warpig anyday.

And I'll make no apologies for it.

[Meldread]

67. Yes, because doing something just as bad makes it all better.

I'm awed by the logic. Let's take all the money from these varied and competing corporations (given personhood, protection, and empowered by the government to start with), and instead give it all to the Totalitarian Demagogue who promises he'll do so much better by everyone. Because, you know, unlike every other human being that has ever walked the planet earth, he's free from greed and egotistic self-interest! Therefore, if you oppose him, you're obviously under the influence of foreign manipulators who want to destroy the great nation of Venezuela from within. No, no, there is not a single true Venezuelan not either in league or manipulated by foreign interest groups that oppose him. Since all true Venezuelans support him, he just needs to... silence... everyone... just to, you know... stop those outside groups. Because... uh. They're evil. And stuff. And er, um, they don't want what's best for the people of Venezuela like Chavez. Hey, did you hear Chavez is so pure of soul that his shit is white? It must be true! State television told me so!

[bridgit]

68. Dude, people drink the sand because they don't know the difference

[EFerrari]

71. Dude, I hope you have a sand taster with you at all times!

[bridgit]

72. Sand is for beach balls & photo ops, I thought most people were aware of that

[bridgit]

66. No fucking shit! Gang way, South American Royalty In Absentia coming through...

and they will not have it any other way: Viva le France!

[Meldread]

69. Yeah, I'm giving people a few years.

Maybe a decade at the most. Then they'll eventually catch on: Hey! Maybe that guy was selling me a lot of bullshit to manipulate me, and use the government to secure as much power as possible for himself!

Of course, then that's when the revolution starts because Venezuelan people want their country back...

But then the United States will be proclaimed the enemy by his supporters here. "The US was undermining poor Hugo from the very start! If they had left him alone, then he could have done all those things he promised... the people... they just are being manipulated... and don't understand!"



"Leave Hugo Alone!"

[EFerrari]

70. LOL. Broad hint: It's already been ten years and none of these horrible

predictions have yet come true.

Broad hint #2: Anyone who knows anything about Latin America already knows the US government is not a friend. There are libraries full of dissertations, lol, that discuss this topic. It's not a secret.

[Meldread]

74. I know all about CIA involvement in Latin America.

...and I don't support it, and never will.

That, however, is the basis upon which criticism will be placed upon the United States. Whether we play a direct role in toppling Chavez or not, we will still be blamed. I don't know where you'll stand in the future, and I hold out hope that eventually you'll see this man for what he is, but I'm fully aware that there will always be those here who will never see Hugo as he truly is... the man could eat babies on state run TV and some people here would proclaim that it was somehow America's doing.

It is inevitable. Maybe Hugo will live his entire life and never face a single rebellion, but what about the person who comes after him? He will eventually groom a successor. Then what about the person after the successor?

Eventually, someday, a coupe will take place. A government ALWAYS rules by consent of the people. Eventually, when people reach a tipping point, they will turn against that government. That is why democracy is important... it is the only way to ensure a civilized transfer of power.

This regime will ultimately end in violence. Even if Hugo has the best intentions at heart, believes every word he speaks, and fully intends to carry out every promise he makes, it will still end badly. It is inevitable.

[EFerrari]

77. Hugo Chavez has been elected multiple times in elections more transparent

than ours.

When the people reach that tipping point, he will lose an election. :think:

[DutchLiberal]

127. You don't know anything about US's history of meddling in South-America, do you?

How Nixon and Kissinger killed off Chile's economy and undermined president Salvador Allende, as a set-up for a military coup by the facist general Pinochet? Just one example.

[Union Yes]

82. You mean like Hugo's cash contributions to help Indigenous Americans living on reservations?

The same "native" indigenous Americans our own govt turned our back on?

You aware that Chavez sends hundreds of millions of $ to American indigenous tribes for heating and energy assistance?

That's an example of Hugo's socialism steamrolling America. Not.

[bridgit]

88. I can tell Chavez has suckered your vote with money...

My 1st bf...it seems like a lifetime ago, went home and died from a heroin overdose on The Res - Chavez, even where somewhere within him he may or may not have understood; made instead a cynical political gesture from the petro-bucks in his pocket to get to you to change your mind: your already changed mind about *this* land

If you don't like America meddling into the internal affairs of other nations...how are you able to justify Chavez meddling into the Native American Spirit of America?

Because Hugo Chavez says it is thus & so? That's not enough. He bought off the NE with fossil energy, and a Kennedy was standing there too. Chavez did not develop the commodity, he's just here to annex it and piece-it-out by the drip & drab for little more than his positioning as a socialist leader of the people on the world stage

Russia and China are standing there beside him to what? Protect from the great DU Satan: America. China has our jobs, Union Yes, when you say, "Yay! Zippity Doo-Dah! Let Hugo be Hugo!!!!!!" You're sanctioning the continued flow *of* previously union jobs to the provinces of China good job, that's real 'union' of you

I've been a union member since I was 17, people really need to think this shit through

"cut price fuel", don't even try to convince me Hugo Chavez is a union welder http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4813998.stm

[Judi Lynn]

89. You should have learned by now that groups in the US approached HIM first

to ask for discounted heating oil, AFTER begging for help from the oil companies in the US, and after being totally blown off.

If you had stirred yourself to spend a mere minute's worth researching you WOULD know this already.

After Democratic Congressmen, a governor, mayors from at least 26 states, and spokespeople from over 100 separate groups of Native Americans all were handed their hats by US oil companies, they approached Venezuela and got assistance.

Many DU'ers knew this YEARS ago. You should have picked this up yourself from newspaper articles, or tv news.

[bridgit]

91. Oh, but it has been understood for years: and there stood Hugo Chavez

That, I should include, and much much more - but you really do not care to know what I've learned and that is the moment here between us

[Union Yes]

90. Please read it with your own eyes, my seething hatred for "Free Trade"..

I wrote both OP's. In the past 2 weeks I've written at least 10 different anti-free trade threads. I'll be glad to go thread hunting and post them all if you like.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7228206
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7178632

[bridgit]

92. Fair enough, peace ~

[Union Yes]

93. Peace to you too. nt

[DutchLiberal]

126. You need a lot of words to say nothing.

Not a single factual statement in your post. Not one fact. Why waste our time like that?

[Union Yes]

59. Hugo gives me hope. knr nt

[bridgit]

64. Did he tell them to try the veal and tip their waitress...cause she's a working girl too

And Chavez is all about 'the working people'

[lyonspotter]

75. From the looks of things...

Chavez is not alone in his distaste for capitalism. Obama, this congress, Bush before them, etc., were all corporatists (corporatism is fascism)...excepting huge campaign monies from corporations, and then capitulating to those corporate bodies as soon as they assumed their post. One always has to pay the piper.

[lyonspotter]

76. ...or, work hard to keep the piper paid!

[RevCheesehead]

87. wow - before you know it, people will think Jesus was up to something.

You know, that annoying "give to the poor" meme all through the gospels, the first Christian communities "sharing all things in common," etc. That kind of thinking might lead people to begin to understand what's really in the Bible.

(do I really need to use the sarcasm thingy here?)

K,thanx, bye.

[Wilms]

95. k&r n/t

[upi402]

96. "They" must just HATE Hugo Chavez

Many of us love hearing those words spoken. I guess our politicians are so wary of uttering a bad word against their corporate masters. And the MSM sucks.

[ljm2002]

100. I have to point out something...

...this thread, as most threads with the name Hugo Chavez in them, has devolved into another "He's a despot!" / "No he's not!" thread.

Sadly, most seemed to miss the point entirely.

Hugo Chavez stood in front of an international meeting of high level representatives of many nations, and made a speech against capitalism, the USA, and imperialism, and for socialism and revolution. This crowd he stood in front of can hardly be called "rabble", although it may be understandable why the author of the piece used the term "rabble-rousing". But here, in front of this crowd, his words received resounding applause, and when he was finished he got a standing ovation.

People really should think about that. That is the important aspect of this. Love him or hate him, it's irrelevant. He touched a nerve there, struck a real chord. Doesn't matter what you think of *him*, the important aspect of this story is the reaction his words received. That's the significance of his speech, and that is what we need to be paying attention to.

[blindpig]

102. "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Naked capitalism will evoke the inevitable response.

[ljm2002]

103. Yes, and we can see it is starting to happen...

...right before our eyes.

[EFerrari]

107. Agreed, although as an object, it was a great speech.

It was well built, carefully developed and beautifully expressed.

[bridgit]

108. If that were the case that would make a lovely Hallmark card, but it has much more to do...

with capitalism: plain, raw & simple

Chavez blames Venezuela economic drop on OPEC oil output cut

President Hugo Chavez said on Wednesday the Venezuela oil producer’s economic slide was largely due to its compliance with OPEC mandated oil output cuts as Venezuela GDP shrank 4.5 percent in the third quarter of 2009, a second consecutive three-month contraction that by most economists’ definition puts Venezuela in recession.

Though Venezuela is still heading for a smaller economic decline this year than plenty of other nations, Chavez critics have leapt on this week’s data as evidence of the failure of his decade-long socialist drive. Private sector investment and output have suffered in Venezuela’s state-driven model, with large swathes of the economy nationalized since Chavez came to power in 1999.

http://www.liveoilprices.co.uk/oil/opec_members/11/2009/chavez-blames-venezuela-economic-drop-on-opec-oil-output-cut

Chavez could pull out of OPEC if it suited his purposes, but he doesn't. When he stands at the UN podium, or any other podium and declares the devil as having been right there, where he is standing because he can still smell the sulfur, capitalism is a whore of a cruel mistress denigrating the socialist right of the people, etc, the Raspberry Beret contingent takes to the dancing streets with fresh felt pens and so he continues elsewhere: the USA is the scourge of free people's everywhere - EVERYWHERE! (the contingent goes wild with sneering/smirking contempt) and so it continues: the USA keeps clogging his effluent somehow and willfully so (Amy Goodman interviews Evo Morales) and this is part of why such leaders do and say the things they do and say...but it is his every bit as likely admission that he, Hugo Chavez: lives, breathes, and ingests sulfur as a by-product of Venezuela's primary national export: oil, that and piecemeal, fair weather, one size fits all paranoia of America, and so?

Chavez is too much like too many other 'leaders' drawing the attentions of his people away from the imperfections in his own brand of socialism in the form of paranoia-mongering, and, at least for me, *not* merely emotional histrionics but a stale, tired histrionic pantomime because of it's familiar predictability

When times get tough, blame somebody else - and DU does sanction that as a cornerstone of the socialist agenda as represented in the personage of Hugo Chavez

[EFerrari]

109. In order to believe that, one has to ignore quite a bit.

like the US military build up happening in the region now; one has to ignore all the attempts at destabilization ONGOING in left leaning countries; one has to ignore the cynicism which is apparently the policy of this administration -- which has yet to condemn the human rights violations in Honduras but makes empty statements about democracy; one has to ignore the casual contempt with which just this week Clinton threatened Venezuela and Bolivia about their relations with Iran.

But if you ignore all of that, you could say that Chavez is fearmongering. Except you'd also have to say that every other leader in Latin America (but for our stooges in Peru and Colombia) are also fearmongering because they all agree with him.

So, it looks like you have it exactly backward. When times get tough, attack Hugo Chavez. :)

[bridgit]

118. You can't tell if when Hugo is moving his lips he is lying, and there's a practical matter as to...

why that can be the case, and an emotionally charged component as well because of your familial, emotionally charged relationship to it; but as a practical matter, it is not possible to conclude that Hugo is lying in every case especially in that the truth and so believability of what he says is clearly recognized as is, or was the case with many, here a short list: Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Barack Obama, Hugo Chavez, etc - leaders all - you see the arc of that trajectory and I refuse to believe you do not understand what I am referring to

When I see Hugo's lips moving, however, I do not contest the already recognized components of truth & believability in his words and so I am free to transition toward the *why* he is saying what he says. A look into current futures & commodities is able to suggest why

Hugo Chavez is Hugo Chavez, but Rush Limbuagh is a mother fucking asshole - the difference is clear. The common element between them seems that each if their fan bases will flock sight-unseen to either end of the yardstick leaving others to balance the beam

I appreciate your passion, thank you for your post

[EFerrari]

133. You post is entirely fact free but it is entirely your perogative

to "transition" factlessly into your own projections.

[bridgit]

135. And there is that emotional component

[EFerrari]

144. Right. Yours.

[varelse]

148. Yes, that is the most significant fact reported

and it is being ignored as the pissing contest rages on.

[grahamhgreen]

105. I believe in a hybrid socialist/capitalist system - which is the way the best countries work already

[two-fold nature]

106. Chavez is right.

And so is Evo Morales


AMY GOODMAN: You spoke yesterday here at the Bella Center and said we cannot end global warming without ending capitalism. What did you mean?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: Capitalism is the worst enemy of humanity. Capitalism—and I’m speaking about irrational development—policies of unlimited industrialization are what destroys the environment. And that irrational industrialization is capitalism. So as long as we don’t review or revise those policies, it’s impossible to attend to humanity and life.

AMY GOODMAN: How would you do that? How would you end capitalism?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: It’s changing economic policies, ending luxury, consumerism. It’s ending the struggle to—or this searching for living better. Living better is to exploit human beings. It’s plundering natural resources. It’s egoism and individualism. Therefore, in those promises of capitalism, there is no solidarity or complementarity. There’s no reciprocity. So that’s why we’re trying to think about other ways of living lives and living well, not living better. Not living better. Living better is always at someone else’s expense. Living better is at the expense of destroying the environment.

AMY GOODMAN: President Morales, what are you calling here—for here at the UN climate summit?

PRESIDENT EVO MORALES: Defense of the rights of Mother Earth. The earth is our life. Nature is our home, our house. Happily, the United Nations have declared a Mother Earth Day. If the mother is recognized as Mother Earth, it’s something that can’t be sold, it’s something that can’t be—it can’t be violated, something sacred. This is nature. This is planet earth. And that’s why I’ve come here, to defend the rights of Mother Earth, to defend the rights to life, to defend humanity and saving Mother Earth.

http://live.democracynow.org/2009/12/17/bolivian_president_evo_morales_on_climate

[ChickenHawk]

143. She sounds a little kooky to me.....

We should stop trying to "Live better"? I don't get that. Isn't almost everyone on this planet trying to live their life better? I know I am. I know the slum dweller in India sure is. I don't think anyone has the right to tell him that he should just "live well" and be happy with that.

Sorry, and that whole last paragraph about "If the mother is recognized as Mother Earth, it's something that can't be sold, it's something that can't be-it can't be violated, something sacred."

I think she was high when she gave that speech. :)

[ItNerd4life]

111. Yes Americans are Evil! But we're beggars and theives so we'll take your money.

Chavez is short sighted and only thinks of himself. He says we're evil and bad but he wants our money. What a f***ing hypocrite.

He's destroying his country. And people here on DU cheer him! :crazy:

[EFerrari]

130. Hugo Chavez = Bin Laden X 1000,000!

[bridgit]

160. hahaha, Bin Laden = Tom Sawyer cause they both slept in caves wonderful!!

= Tom Sawyer = Hugo Chavez = Problem Pretzel Logic Solved!

[EFerrari]

162. According to the WaHo editorial board:

[bridgit]

165. No, no, I hear you - it's Saturday, let's have fun instead while we still can...

:)

[EFerrari]

174. Next year, I want to enter the WaHo Peeps Diorama competition.

lol

:)

[devilgrrl]

112. Hugo Chavez! He EVIL! Me scared! Osama Bin Laden scared too! So is Satan - Chavez Scary!

:scared:

[laughingliberal]

114. God bless this man who stood for the poor in his country against the wealthy...

and who, actually, does more for some of our poor than our own fucking government.

[DutchLiberal]

119. He accused my country of arming the Netherlands Antilles to attack Venezuela with the US...

And I trust him more than my own Minister of Foreign Affairs. (Bush-friend!)

Is there video footage of President Chavez's speech with English subtitles? I don't speak a word of Spanish.

[Judi Lynn]

168. This might help. from Peace Patriot, post #14, transcript in English

posted in the Latin America forum. with video in Spanish:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x28092#28173

Your own post is excellent, by the way.

[DutchLiberal]

171. Thank you --for the link and the compliment.

You're doing a great job yourself keeping us updated on Latin-American affairs.

[IndianaGreen]

124. If the climate were a bank, the US would bail it out

That's a Hugo quote!

Viva Chavez!

[Myhrejl]

128. Hugo's associations

As one of the first leaders to recognize the repressive Iranian president, it will be hard for me to accept him as a serious leader. ever.

[IndianaGreen]

131. and we support Saudi Arabia, a country that finances the Taliban

and a global network of religious schools were children are taught to hate Jews and Israel.

[DutchLiberal]

132. Obama recognizes the Honduras coup-regime, the Saudi royal family and the Chinese dictatorship...

Your point being?

[Myhrejl]

136. My point is that Hugo not deserving of praise

I thought that was clear. I understand there are practicalities in foreign diplomacy, but the Iranian government is beyond reproach as far as I'm concerned, and I find it discomforting that anyone recognizes that illegitimate government. Although, it may have been Brazil's president come to think of it. I may have mis-spoke. I don't hate the man, I just think alot of what he does is politically expedient. He doesn't deserve to be put on a pedestal.

[EFerrari]

140. "Beyond reproach" means "above criticism". n/t

[Myhrejl]

142. whoops,

shouldn't use big words while drinking.

[EFerrari]

145. I should have the same rule!

:)

[Usrename]

141. I think you were correct.

Chavez manuevered with Iran to help create the Iran Oil Bourse which trades primarily in Euros, not US dollars, which was the standard up until the IOB opened in 2006. Together, I think, with Ecuador.

This is one of the reasons that Washington wants to demonize the guy. He is anti-Imperialist, and a democratic socialist to boot.

All of which makes me say: "Viva Chavez!"

[Myhrejl]

146. I wouldn't say anti-imperialist

I'd say pro-his country. I do like his outspoken style, however I think people should recognize he IS A POLITICIAN. I will research if I must but I do believe that this man is seriously at question as far as his moral superiority to Americans. F#ck, I know you people are going to make me research. Let me see what I can dig up on this guy.

[Myhrejl]

147. That was pretty funny how he

face mushed that fox reporter. Still looking...

[Usrename]

154. He's an interesting guy. And funny too.

He and Evo Morales both have interesting stories.

[EFerrari]

159. So does Lula. There are a bunch of amazing guys leading

in Latin America right now.

[DutchLiberal]

172. The Iranian government isn't MORE illegitimate than those which I listed...

The ONLY difference is that, Honduras' coup government, the Chinese communist dictatorship, and the Saudi royal family are Obama's buddies, and Iran's Ahmadinejad is Chavez's ally. So that explains why all the media and politicians focus on "bad" Chavez and "bad" Ahmadinejad instead of on "our friends" in Honduras, China and Saudi-Arabia.

I mean, Saudi-Arabia; think of that for a while! 15 of the 19 hijackers of 9/11 were Saudi's! The attack was paid for by Saudi money! The country ranks among the worst when it comes to human rights, according to Amnesty International --far, far worse than Iran. Actually, women still have rights in Iran, but none in Saudi-Arabia. No driving cars, no going to the movies, no going out in public without family company. Saudi-Arabia is under sharia, Iran is not.

There certainly is a double standard going on here.

[mdmc]

178. --