Don't Forget what McCain Wanted to do About Health Care!

[iceman66]

Basically his plan was to discourage employers from providing health insurance by taxing benefits, thereby forcing individuals to buy their own insurance on an unregulated free market, and to provide tax credits that wouldn't even come close to the actual cost of premiums.

This is what we would be looking at if the other side was in charge.

As disappointing as the Senate bill is, this is no time to abandon our party or our President. The alternative is far, FAR worse!

[Winterblues]

1. His Plan was to "Cut Taxes" and "Freeze All Government Spending except Military"

:shrug:

[iceman66]

3. No, that was his economic plan.

What I posted above is a pretty fair summary of his health care proposal.

[cliffordu]

2. You are exactly right - but get ready for the flames, anyway......

[tridim]

4. Instantly unreced into oblivion.

DU is lost. :(

Who the hell would unrec what you posted, other than McCain supporters?

[iceman66]

9. I guess a lot of the posters here just can't wait for the Palin administration.

[Marr]

46. Edit

removed

[kiva]

15. Maybe people who are sick and tired of any criticism being met

with cries of "Oh, so you wanted McCain/Palin to win" or "Guess we know who you voted for in 2008". Or people who disagree with the president's policies about HCR and Afghanistan and GLBT rights who are frustrated with pony references. Or people who agree with other Dem politicians like Dr. Dean and dislike seeing him/them being dismissed as irrelevant.

Of course, you can continue to believe that DU is full of trolls and sockpuppets and McCain supporters if it makes you feel better.

[tridim]

16. That is NOT what the OP said, or even implied.

[kiva]

20. Keep up here, I was respondiing to you, not the OP.

"Who the hell would unrec what you posted, other than McCain supporters?" You wanted to know, I told you. :shrug:

[crappyjazz]

5. It's true, McCain is in bed with them a bit more

McCain, John (R) $2,442,606
Obama, Barack (D) $2,320,820

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary.php?ind=F09&recipdetail=M&sortorder=U&cycle=2008

[lapfog_1]

6. Yes, our President can speak in complete sentences

and use verbs and stuff.

Better than Bush, better than McCain.

Pretty low bar.

[iceman66]

10. Don't you people realize

that if Obama fails, we are going to end up with someone WORSE than McCain?

The teabaggers can't stand him because they think he's TOO LIBERAL.

[Zodiak]

28. Then he should recognize that shitting on his base is political suicide

But you can keep yelling at liberals all you want. That'll get 'em back in line and ready to vote for your guy. :sarcasm:

[iceman66]

31. Obama is caught between a rock and a hard place.

If he played to the liberal base, he'd never get enough votes in Congress to pass a bill.

He's made a political calculation to cater to the whims of Congress, rather than the base, in order to get a bill passed. He's counting on being able to regain the support of liberals before the next election.

Frankly, any liberal would be crazy NOT to support Obama. because the only VIABLE alternative is so horrible.

[eleny]

7. Don't forget what Obama wanted regarding drug importation and mandates

Then he abandoned his position on both.

[tomm2thumbs]

8. to say 'hey, at least raping you isn't as bad as killing you' is ridiculous

this is corporate rape of American taxpayer's wallets

[iceman66]

13. First of all,

the final bill probably won't be as bad as the Senate version. It probably will even represent a modest improvement over the status quo.

Second, anything a future Republican government would come up with would be unimaginably worse. After 4 years of President Palin and a Republican Congress, we'll be lucky if anyone in the public sector outside the top 2% even has health insurance.

[joeybee12]

11. Actually, what we might have gotten could have been better...

it's the nature of politics, the opposition party objects...they could have objected whatever McLame put across into something decent.

[TwilightGardener]

12. LOL. You must have missed the previous 8 years of "objections".

You know full well Dems would have rushed to cooperate with the McCain agenda, WHATEVER crap it was.

[joeybee12]

38. 6 years of "objections" they started growing a spine in Dumbo's final

two years...in any case, we'll never know how bad McLame's would have been...we do, however, how bad Obama's is.

[DrDan]

14. perhaps the tax credits would not cover the premiums, but they would cover the additional taxes

right? Or perhaps even surpass the additional taxes.

[RainDog]

17. LOL. thank you for shitting on us, democrats

because otherwise we would have MORE SHIT from the republicans.

that's a GREAT WAY to gain the support of the American people.

[RainDog]

18. LOL. thank you for shitting on us, democrats

because otherwise we would have MORE SHIT from the republicans.

that's a GREAT WAY to gain the support of the American people.

[iceman66]

21. You have to think long term

Two successful terms of President Obama would tilt the country to the left, albeit incrementally, and there is a pretty good chance that a real liberal could replace him in 2016.

On the other hand, if Obama goes down in flames and is defeated in the next election by someone like Palin, the country may never recover.

[RainDog]

22. Obama had a mandate to move the country away from the republicans

and if he expects to get out the vote, that's what he needs to do.

but he hasn't done that.

so, democrats should think long term and recognize that they can't shit on their base and expect them to blindly support them.

that's very basic.

don't ask those whose only power is the voting booth to vote for their own misery.

[iceman66]

26. Obama may not be the super hero that many of you seem to have expected,

but he is still a hell of a lot better than any Republican would be, and he is only getting started.

Right now Obama is more concerned about getting votes in Congress, rather than the voting booth.

You think he doesn't know this is a crappy bill?

His goal from day one on health care has been to get the best bill possible, but he is limited by what Congress is actually willing to pass.

If he came out strongly for single-payer, or even a strong public option, he would lose too many votes and we would have NO BILL. Remember the watered-down House bill BARELY passed, and the Senate is even more conservative.

That is why he is catering to Lieberman et al rather than the liberal base.

If he had to do it over again, he probably would make some other issue the centerpiece of his domestic agenda, but now he is determined to see the process through to the end.

[Zodiak]

33. He isn't going to have it over again, so your point is moot

As for the rest, he fucked up. He did not calculate that the liberal base has been ignored and cajoled for over 30 years and were giving "one last chance" to the party that makes a POINT of demonizing liberals.

That last chance dissolved a few days ago, and it was reinforced with the attack on Dean.

It's over...that big CRACK you heard is a split in the party....and it may be fairly permanent. Well, it will be permanent if the current "shit on the liberals for scuttling our corporate giveaway" strategy continues for much longer.

If Obama knows it is a shitty bill, then he had better say something about it, and not act like Joe Leiberman is the second coming of Christ for fucking this up for millions of people.

[iceman66]

36. He miscalculated

by pushing for a health care bill without having the votes lined up IN ADVANCE.

He assumed that with such large Democratic majorities in Congress he would be able to get something halfway decent passed relatively quickly.

Now, he has decided that getting even an imperfect bill is preferable to no bill at all.

I happen to agree with him.

[Zodiak]

40. Great....enjoy him

Because his miscalculations have fucked up his entire presidency.

And the beating up on liberals thing is totally unacceptable and contemptuous. Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater!

Wow...one miscalculation after another. Some chess player.

[iceman66]

42. Clinton also had a rough first year,

and turned out to be a fine President.

I wouldn't be so quick to give up on Obama, even if he is not the chess master you were hoping for.

[Zodiak]

44. Clinton was a corporate piece of shit

Who, coupled with the DLC, lost the liberal vote in 2000 and ushered in the era of Bush with their feckless cowardice.

then they blamed the liberals for it.

Holding up the anti-welfare, media consolidating Clinton up as a paragon of progressiveness is a joke.

Did I mention that he handed over the entire Congress to the Republicans?

Yeah....great president, if you are a conservative.

[iceman66]

49. I didn't say he was a "paragon of progressiveness",

but he was, in my opinion, one of the better Presidents we've had in modern times.

The voters agreed when he was re-elected in a landslide.

I also have absolutely no doubt that Clinton would have handily beat GWB if he had been able to run for a third term.

You don't seem like you'd be happy with anyone who is not a far-left idealist.

[Zodiak]

30. No...voters cannot "think" strategically

That is not the nature of voters. Many thousands of them, and with all different motivations and sensibilities.

It is the nature of politicians to think about these things. They failed, and have sewn the seeds of all of our destruction in the process.

Their JOB is to know this kind of crap. Voters have one job....voting.

And this country will not recover....so you might as well get used to it, now. Our political system is hijacked on both sides by corporations, and the "party of the people" seems to like it that way.

Liberals did not cause that......bad politicians who cannot think long-term caused that.

[iceman66]

32. Are you a voter?

Can you think strategically?

[Zodiak]

35. Yes

And you missed my point.

You cannot change "voters" as a group without pols to inspire them.

Whether you convince me alone doesn't mean jack shit.

The progressives ripped off from the Democratic party a couple of days ago, if you have not noticed.

That means DU, kos, and a whole lot of liberals you will never see on the blogosphere.

So what part about "think long term or we get Palin" is going to reconnect the entire progressive grassroots?

It won't.

It is the POLITICIANS who earn votes. Voters are not "expected to vote strategically" as an overall strategy. That is a recipe for losing.

If you give them nothing to vote for but a stupid strategy and nothing but fear of the other side, well, enjoy being the minority party.

[iceman66]

39. Obama's strategy is

to get health care over and done with as soon as possible, even knowing that the end result is going to be a big let down to a lot of progressives.

He will then spend the next two years trying to reconnect with the base on other issues, and hope that the health care debacle is a distant memory by 2012.

[Zodiak]

41. Liberals have long memories

Hope he's calculating that, too

And remember, his "reform" now comes with shackles that will pin you FOR LIFE to a for-profit, almost unregulated industry with a long history of killing Americans.

Disappointment is one thing....selling us and the entire American populace to an industry that MURDERS BY SPREADSHEET is not going to be "forgiven" with a few useless bones in the next couple of years. How fucking stupid does Obama think liberals are? apparently VERY stupid. We'll he is miscalculating again.

We already know he's putting together his working groups to cut entitlements...so when exactly is he going to hope to court liberals?

He's done....he fucked up, and his plans are to fuck up even more.

Like I said, enjoy him....soon he will be a lame duck, then he will be gone. It did not have to happen this way, but if you ask liberals to believe in you, and then appoint the DLC all over the oplace, you have no one to blame but yourself for being a false advertiser.

[iceman66]

43. You are assuming worst case scenario.

Why not keep an open mind and see what actually happens with mandates, etc. between now and the next election before throwing Obama under the bus?

[Zodiak]

45. You really make too many assumptions about me

When Obama signs the bill without a public option, he is done, finished with me, and I will become his political enemy.

...and I have a right to bitch every step of the way.

Waiting until the next election is stupid...we will have a movement to put together, and waiting for this cowardice and fecklessness to produce something before then is going to waste valuable time.

He signs the bill without a PO, he is done.

[iceman66]

48. All I'm trying to say is that the final bill may not be as bad as you think.

Even without a PO, it may represent some genuine progress. Is too early to tell, really.

Refusing to vote for Obama based on that one issue strikes me as foolish. Much like the social conservatives who vote Republican against their economic interest because the Democrats support abortion rights.

I'll say it again - in 2012 it is going to be either Obama or a Republican. If Obama loses, we will get a new president WORSE than McCain, and probably even worse than Bush! Our best hope of getting someone more liberal in 2016 would be if Obama is re-elected and we should all be working toward that goal.

[Marr]

47. Pardon me, but how the hell is that "thinking long term"?

That's a flimsy excuse with a fantasy tacked on. Your long term plan is, 'support the corporate Democrat because he's not quite as bad as a Republican... and maybe a real liberal will be elected later'.

Why? Why would a real liberal be elected later? If people are willing to accept this garbage, that's what they'll keep getting.

[iceman66]

51. Because after 8 years of Obama success,

even if he doesn't meet your lofty expectations, liberal ideals would become more mainstream.

Also, it is a fallacy to suggest that Obama is "not quite as bad" as a Republican. Any Republican that could actually make it through the primary process in this day and age would be orders of magnitude worse than Obama.

[Marr]

52. Eight years of Obama success.

Like the last year?

Listen, this isn't a matter of him not meeting my "lofty expectations". I never had high expectations for this man, because he's been a corporate Democrat from the get-go. He's outdone my cynical assumptions-- not lofty expectations.

If you actually think Obama has advanced "liberal ideas" in any way over the last year, I don't know what to tell you. Good luck.

[iceman66]

53. He has kept our economy from collapsing completely,

as it likely would have if McCain had won, and he has greatly scaled back operations in Iraq. McCain would have probably started WW3 by now by attacking Iran.

You probably would not have been happy with anyone to the right of Dennis Kucinich.

[Marr]

54. Yeah, and GW Bush kept you safe for seven years.

Con-men are always 'saving people from disasters'.

And please-- stop trying to read my mind. I wasn't a Kucinich supporter.

[iceman66]

56. Was he too conservative for you?

[Marr]

57. Yeah, that's it.

Everyone who thinks your idol is too conservative must be a Communist.

Look, I know you're getting frustrated and pill time's not for another hour or so, but try to hold it together.

[NashVegas]

19. We Are Not Here to Discuss McCain

Or even Obama. We are here to discuss the issue of health care reform and the bill on the hill.

[Cleita]

23. Sorry but this legislation is not the answer. The status quo is better.

At least it doesn't have the potential for criminalizing the poor, while still withholding meaningful health care from them.

[TiberiusGracchus]

24. That's true... but McCain or Hillary would'nt have allowed it to get this bad...

As horrid as his policies may be, it's undeniable that McCain would've fought tooth and nail to cram it down congress' throats. Hillary would've done it even more vigorously.

In fact, Hillary would've taken total control of this legislation and we would have single payer healthcare back in AUGUST had she become president.

[iceman66]

29. Were you even paying attention during the campaign?

Hillary NEVER advocated single-payer.

In fact, the current bill is closer to what Hillary had proposed during the primaries than what Obama ran on.

The ONLY way Hillary would be doing better right now is that she wouldn't have disappointed so many people because, unlike Obama, no one expected her to be a super-liberal.

[TiberiusGracchus]

34. How can you think HRC would've bent over and taken CRAP from the rethugs and lieberman?

are you nuts?

One thing for sure is that HRC would NEVER have contemplated taking shit from the Republicans or from Lieberman on this issue. We wouldn't even be TALKING about whether or not to deal with reconciliation.

Instead, the Republicans would discover precisely WHY it is that hell hath no fury as a woman whose life and marriage you dragged through the mud .

[Zodiak]

37. She would

That's what the DLC does, too.

In fact, under Hillary I would be surprised if she offered the little cretin a spot in her administration.

Hillary wasn't our answer, and I still stand behind my non-vote for her DLC ass.

[iceman66]

50. She wouldn't have had to.

Hillary would have started out with something that Lieberman and the blue dogs would support. It would probably have looked a lot like the present Senate bill.

[The Straight Story]

25. So we got McCain light and we should feel better about it? (nt)

[LastNaturalist]

27. I tried to bring this up yesterday.

But everyone's memory is so short, they're like a bunch of little Dean Lemmings.

[Luciferous]

55. So we should be grateful that we are getting this shitty bill? Ha!