You will be shocked... I changed my mind.

[backscatter712]

Sound the party horns, break out the champagne and drink up - somebody on the Internet changed his mind.

This was a painful change of mind for me - I'd busted my butt going to rallies and protests, calling my Congresscritters, raising as much hell as I could to get health care reform done. I didn't want to see that work go down the drain.

I know how things work in Congress - we weren't going to get everything we wanted, and compromises had to be made, so I was more than patient with them, continued to make my calls and pressure Congress to get us some health care.

And I was damned pissed off when Kapo Joe Lieberman blew up his suicide vest and took out the public option. For a while, I said, OK, we take half a loaf, it's better than nothing, right?

But the more I look at this piece of sausage being made, the more I see that this sausage has way too little meat and spices, and way too much poo.

There's a limit, and that limit has been crossed. It's time to demand this bill be fixed or killed.

ALL ABOARD THE DEAN TRAIN!!!

[PassingFair]

1. I'll say it...

WELCOME ABOARD!!!

Next stop...TRUTH TOWN.

[AndyA]

2. Howard Dean has always made sense to me. He has always had a real

passion that seems forced sometimes with other politicians.

I respect Gov. Dean and I think what he says makes sense. He is a smart man.

[Cant trust em]

3. Mandates are awful. Without the cost controlls of the PO, it's not good enough.

I was willing to trade mandates for a PO.

[MercutioATC]

5. Mandates are necessary.

But they're grossly unfair (to the point of being unconscionable) without cost controls and a safety net to catch those who can't afford insurance.

[backscatter712]

8. That's the key.

At least there's still a little bit of safety net in the bill - the subsidies. They don't kick in for several years, but between the Medicaid expansion and the subsidies for people up to 300% of the poverty line, that's not a horrible thing.

But with the end of the public option or Medicare expansion, there is little cost control, and there's little to check the bad behavior of the insurance companies. Sure there's regulations, like the mandatory community-rating and open enrollment, but that all got watered down, especially with things like the return of annual benefit caps, and the not-quite-community-rated "community rating" with exemptions for age, etc.

I would have been able to put up with that if there was some additional competition from the public option or Medicare expansion. But now that those are gone, there's too little.

The line's been crossed.

Fix it or kill it.

[hootinholler]

9. True but the only mandate should be into the public option.

Without healthy individuals in that pool it is a money pit.

-Hoot

[sabrina 1]

11. Mandates to buy a product from a corrupt

business are not only not necessary, they are probably unconstitutional and will probably be challenged in Court.

The 30 million people they keep saying will be getting coverage in this bill, are people who have to make the choice between food for their families and handing over that money to the corrupt Private Ins. Industry. They've already made a choice. I know many of them personally. They are good people who work hard, but our system of healthcare views citizens lives as less valuable than corporate profits. If they can't afford it now, tell me, how will they afford it when they are forced to pay for it? What necessity will they give up to help out this corrupt and failing industry?

If this bill was about nothing else other than mandates, I would oppose it because it is evil to force a struggling family into more debt for the sake of enriching one more greedy industry THAT WE DON'T NEED. They are the middle men that are adding 30% to the cost of health care.

No more compromising. From the beginning, the only worthwhile proposal was a Single Payer system, like every other civilized country in the world provides for their citizens. This piecemeal mess, whose main goal is to try to squeeze more profits out of the poorest Americans because they have already squeezed the middle class for as much as they can.

Shame on our Representatives, shame on those who apologize for them also. This whole idea of forcing people to pay for their own shoddy healtcare from corrupt institutions, and then try to tell them you are fighting for them and providing them healthcare as if they were stupid morons, should and would be laughed off the infamous table in a country that had any principles left.

[CTyankee]

15. How can mandates be unconstitutional? We have one now with Medicare.

You cannot say you don't want to pay your Medicare payroll tax. You don't get the option. It's taken out of your paycheck.

I might be wrong but I think this issue was settled after Medicare was passed. I remember reading somewhere that it had been challenged in federal court but the challenge lost.

[noiretextatique]

16. a government mandated payroll tax

is different than a government mandate to purchase insurance from a private, for-profit company.

[CTyankee]

19. You may have a point there that makes it different from Medicare. In which case, it

only strengthens the case for a non-profit, government payer, health care plan, doesn't it?

[noiretextatique]

23. yes it does

:thumbsup: it most certainly does. mandates will:
1) increase insurance company profits
2) criminalize people who don't buy insurance
it's a terrible idea.

[CTyankee]

24. Oh, I think so too. It is terribly unfair, without a public option like Medicare type coverage.

In this case, I would side with you...but who knows how the courts will rule on this...

[pattmarty]

56. You have car insurance. It's the same fucking thing. You are..............

......."mandated" to purchase car insurance or you get fined/jailed if you don't. I don't like ANY kind of government mandate to purchase a "private" product.

[stillwaiting]

65. You are not mandated to buy a car though.

Millions of Americans are not subject to the auto insurance mandate because they choose to (or are too poor to) not own a car. Therefore, they don't have to pay auto insurance companies.


If it's the same thing, How can I arrange things so I DON'T have to pay the fucking health insurance parasites?

[pattmarty]

83. C'mon, you're gonna nitpick on the apt comparison? Gimme a.................

.............fucking break. I believe we're arguing about semantics and not about "the bill". I personally believe that you should not have to pay private companies that government can and should provide for any number of reasons, but mainly BECAUSE IT IS CHEAPER AND MORE EFFICIENT. I don't like or believe this bill in its present form should be passed. What we need is either a "strong" so called public option or (my preference) a staggered buy in to Medicare in "age blocks" until all of us are covered. In addition to that, pull the insurance monopoly's anti trust exemption, no lifetime caps OR YEARLY CAPS on coverages, no pre-existing conditions, and a whole bunch of other shit that I can't mention here just because of space & time limits. THAT BILL both houses can pass.

[mn9driver]

84. Exactly! !

It's just like car insurance.

Don't want mandatory car insurance?
Don't be driving.

Don't want mandatory health insurance?
Don't be living.

Isn't it great to have a choice?

/sarcasm

[sabrina 1]

29. Medicare is a government run program, not a for profit

corporation. It is viewed as a tax, which is Constitutional, for the common good.

It is entirely different to force consumers to buy a commodity from private, for profit corporations.

Is Health Care a right or is it a commodity? Medicaire basically says it is a right and that we all need to pay for it to ensure the common good.

But Private Insurance advocates deny that, claiming it is a commodity. As such, it is unconstitutional to force citizens to pay for a commodity that benefits big business, especially when those consumers are not happy with the product and cannot afford it anyway.

It sets a precedent where Congress could force consumers to buy from their friends. Well, that is exactly what they are doing as a matter of fact. There is a huge conflict of interest also, in Congress' pushing of a product on the people, when the owners of that product finance their campaigns.

Otoh, a medical tax to pay for a Universal Health Care system would be perfectly Constitutional, as is Medicare.

[inna]

74. "a medical tax to pay for a Universal Health Care system"

is a system used in ALL industrialized countries, with a single exception - the good old USA, where people's lives, health and well being are less important than corporate profits.

The uniquely American way - profits over people.

[JDPriestly]

41. Medicare is a government program.

The law requires you to pay money to the government, not to a private company.

Many people analogize requiring people to buy health insurance with requiring people to buy car insurance. That analogy is misplaced. Driving, having a car license or a driver's license is a privilege. You are not born with the right to drive. So in exchange for the privilege of owning a car and driving, you are required to obtain car insurance.

This health insurance is quite different. You will not be buying health insurance in exchange for obtaining a privilege.

They may get past the barrier of the Constitution by giving tax credits to those who buy eligible insurance policies. That, I think is how they will do it. But I have not read that part of the bill.

[grahamhgreen]

43. Medicare is a TAX. A mandate is EXTORTION!

[peace frog]

46. Hear hear!

:applause:

[RufusTFirefly]

64. +1 n/t

[Mimosa]

33. ^ Read the good stuff above ^ n/t

[cilla4progress]

39. Very well put

Thank you!

[midnight]

55. I agree. This bill is a piecemeal mess, and it's goal - squeezing more

out of those who can afford it the least.... And why is it that people in other countries can go get medical treatment without filling out pages and pages of paper work? Why is it that other countries provide low cost health care, and the citizen leaves without a bill? It can be done, and we can do it.

[grahamhgreen]

42. Mandates are a bizarre bastardization of taxes. They are a way to allow corporations to tax us.

No, the money for health care is properly taken out as a payroll tax.

[inna]

75. Mandates are a MASSIVE and hugely regressive backdoor tax

on the struggling working people. Another gigantic lie by Obama. Shame on him. x(

[loudsue]

51. Mandates are NOT "necessary". The ONLY mandate should be to force doctors to care for PEOPLE

The health insurance companies/industry should be abolished. Period.

[MNDemNY]

57. You are right. This alone makes this bill not worth passing.

[liberation]

73. A "mandate" which forces citizens to pay up to private corporations...

... while not only leaving off the hook said corporations regarding their obligations (service, cost control, affordability, social contract, etc) but actually giving them free range, it is not a "mandate" it is a rip-off. And that is in the best of cases.


I am frankly tired of being proven correct over and over and over and over and over again, only to be told "wait and see" over and over and over again. Only to wait, and indeed see that a lot of us were correct from the get go. You do not need to be a genius to know that you negotiate down, not up... start asking for the stars if you want to get the moon.

Enough.

It is now painfully obvious the Dems can't govern their way out of a wet paper bag, the GOP has gone off the deep in their psychosis (probably pointing towards a terminal case of untreated tertiary syphilis), all while some people are trying to convince anyone who dares not "toe in line" that the most democratic approach is to "sh*t up, and do as we're told, because dear leader knows best..." Well, "dear leader" better put up or sh*t the f*ck already... I don't need a speech Mr. Obama, I need actual actions and results. But that is "hard work" right?

[still_one]

4. I am coming from the same place you are. I hope the administration reconsiders /nt

[old mark]

6. So am I. I have as of yesterday removed myself as an Obama fan,

and I guess I won't be getting a christmas card this year after the email I sent to the WH yesterday.

He fucked us. Fuck him.

mark

[freddie mertz]

49. I did too. It hurt. It feels like a divorce or a death in the family.

But it was Obama who tossed us out on the street with his orchestrated attack on Dean and bullying threats from the pulpit.

I knew it was over then.

[liberation]

77. We need to stop seeing the presidency as some sort of popularity context...

... we elevated Obama to a position and status, which frankly he did not deserve given his minimal track record of actual accomplishments. It was probably due more to our desperation, in which many liberals (me included) projected our hopes and aspirations on Mr. Obama. So it is probably as much our fault for doing so, as it is his for taking advantage of such projections to gain electoral traction.

He is a nice guy, he and his family seem great people, and it was an amazing thing to see a half black man reaching the presidency given our country's history. However, we should not elect presidents just to be the "nice smiling family in chief" we elect presidents to get the job done, I don't care if he has cavities, bad breath, and he is a real bastard first thing in the morning... the president is our employee, and he works for us. Either he gets the job done, or not. Once he gets a track record we can wax poetic about how great he is and what not.

What I think it happened, it is the typical "instant satisfaction" approach which permeates through our society. We wanted to have a great president, at all costs, without having to wait all those years to see a concrete track record of actions and achievements. In other words, Mr. Obama (just like some of his predecessors) is the ultimate expression of our society: All show, absolutely no substance.

People should not feel "guilt" when it comes to have an honest evaluation of our elected representatives. Respect is earned, not granted.... regardless of social echelon or political position.

Edit to add: We should also hold Dr. Dean to the same standards I expressed above. At least, he has the 50 state strategy as an achievement under his belt.

[inna]

78. "his orchestrated attack on Dean and bullying threats from the pulpit"

I must've missed those. What do you have in mind? Any links/pointers will be appreciated.

[liberation]

87. Search for the aftermath of Dean's stepping down from the DNC chairmanship after Obama's election.

There is very very bad blood between Rahm Emmanuel and Dr. Dean. It was not as much as it being Obama's attack, as much as it was the carte blanche he gave Emmanuel to throw Dr. Dean under the bus.

BTW, Mr. Emmanuel was one of the biggest opponents of Dean's 50-state strategy. The same strategy which could be considered as ultimately being the conduit to Obama's electoral success. Rahm et al, wanted to play by the old DLC play book: concentrate on a few races/states, throw liberals under the bus because they have no where else to go thus they will end up voting Dem no matter what, all done in an effort to cozy up to possible Repug voters. The thing is that those repug voters would rather stick a white-hot iron rod up their rectums than vote Dem... thus it is no surprise that the electoral DLC play book has always led to unmitigated electoral disasters for the Dems.

Mr. Obama triggered a lot of red flags during the election. But I guess like most others, I decided to look the other way. But it was his throwing of Dean under the bus with such abandon that put Obama in his true context. He later added insult to injury, by proposing extremely compromised corporate whores like Daschle as head of the Human Services Dept... and that Gupta MD teevee whore as Surgeon General. Mr. Obama may be many things, but with his cabinet appointments he made it clear that being remotely concerned with liberal policies or interest... was not one of them.

[butterfly77]

91. You and your partners are full ..

of shit,this isn't just about healthcare,if you were to have another Dem in office would you be jumping ship this soon,even if you say you would I and many others know that it is Bullshit!

[Justitia]

7. It's prudent to change a position when the facts change. Dean was onboard until the latest changes.

He was out there cheerleading until this whole thing fell apart this week.

Like you, he changed his acceptance of it when the bill changed entirely.

That is smart.

And my thoughts on it mirrored his (& yours) exactly.

Trust me, my family desperately needs help w/healthcare, it's life-threatening for my son. But, what they are selling won't do it.

AND there is still time to get it right!

This has become a bridge too far.

[CTyankee]

20. But Dean has been consistently saying that if there is no public option then the

bill needs be thrown out for something better.

I am so sorry to hear about your son. My grandson was denied coverage because he wears glasses! He was 3 years old at the time...

[Justitia]

28. Respectfully, no he hasn't. Don't you remember when he said the "opt out" would be do-able?

And last week, he was ecstatic about the Medicare buy-in.

I am on every one of his mailing lists and press releases. He has never advocated "throwing out the bill".

He has been cheerleading this legislation until the Medicare buy-in was yanked (but he was always honest about it's shortcomings).

And he has said this bill is still salvageable. I think that is precisely why he has decided to speak up so forcefully at just this moment - Dean believes this can still be changed, but our window is closing fast.

[CTyankee]

81. I misspoke. You are right. I meant to say he was seeking a reconciliation

process. Over the past 72 hours I have heard him flesh his thinking out on what he would strip out of this bill and what he would keep in and then go for the funding in reconciliation.

[katkat]

48. CTyankee

Holy cow. I'm living on another planet from rational beings, I think.

[CTyankee]

80. Mercifully, my grandson got on MediCal since my dtr wasn't working at the time

and her husband is self employed.

She has since gotten a fabulous new job with full benefits. But this was a brush with what so many others in our country face and have faced. I am abject about this whole turn of events.

[dgibby]

10. Good for you!

And thanks for all the work you did to get health care reform, but as Keith said last night, "It's not health, it's not care, and it's not reform".

[Laelth]

12. Kill the bill. It's worse than doing nothing. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[L0oniX]

69. Yes. Better to have no bill than a bad one.

[democracy1st]

13. K & R

[laughingliberal]

14. k & r n/t

[MilesColtrane]

17. If the bill is substantially altered in reconciliation and Dean changes his mind,...

will you support it then?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

21. I cannot speak for the OP, but I would

[LooseWilly]

22. Do you mean altered in Conference Committee (where House & Senate bills get "merged")?

Because I was trying to get more information on that process, and I found a little nugget of info saying that the Senate can filibuster the Conference Report (the output of the Conference Committee) just the same as they can filibuster a bill before conference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_congressional_conference_committee
"Conference reports are privileged. And in the Senate, a motion to proceed to a conference report is not debatable, although Senators can generally filibuster the conference report itself."

Reconciliation, on the other hand, is the budgetary procedure... which can't enact reforms to the current system, and can't create new programs (like the Public Option)... but it can expand current programs (like medicare) & it can't be filibustered, so it only needs 51 votes.

I think we all support using reconciliation to extend medicare for all... but that would be such a "radical" move that I'm sure it's blowing the minds, and shaking the nerves, of an awful lot of "mainstream"/"centrist" Democrats...
:+

[MilesColtrane]

25. That is what I meant.

I don't hold much hope of Reid using reconciliation (the tactic) to pass a better bill.

I would hope though that whatever garbage passes the Senate gets substantially modified when it goes to Conference Committee. The pressure on a moderate (or a Lieberman) who decides to filibuster at that point would be tremendous, as it's one more vote then off to the Oval Office.

It does disturb me when some are demanding it be defeated in ANY form, because we still don't know what's going to be in it after if it passes the Senate.

[LooseWilly]

27. I presume those demanding that it be defeated in ANY form are either Republicans, or cynics...

who assume that there won't be any more changes on the public option/mandates.

I am such a cynic, regarding the Senate bill and the conference bill... which I assume no one will try to "fix" for fear of further filibustering (I frankly can't think of anyone who could blow Joe and thereby convince him to not just filibuster the bill again if it doesn't come back from conference the same as it was sent.), so I hope the Progressive caucus kills it. Or, I hope Reid pulls the mandate before putting it to a vote in the Senate (what will Joe do then?).

Of course, my dream come true would be putting the public option and the medicare buy in both back in... and if Joe & the (R)s wanna filibuster, just have the house craft that reconciliation bill to expand medicare... see how long they keep up the filibuster.

I'm not gonna hold my breath.

[Odin2005]

18. Same here!

I AM PISSED! :grr:

Mandates without a strong PO and regulation of the insurance companies is FASCISM!

[dotymed]

70. HR676

Is the only real option for all Americans. HC is a civil right, not a privilege for the wealthy. If only the Congress would allow the CBO (Congressional Budget Office) to present the facts about the costs (savings) to all Americans with HR676, then people could actually be informed about the benefits of a non-profit healthcare system. Most Dr.'s also support this legislation. We currently have a profit motivated "middleman" between us and our Dr.'s, I would much rather have a non-profit motivated, civil servant "middleman" between me and my Dr.'s. In most "civilized countries", that is the way it is, and they have a much healthier population and are ranked much higher in HC than America is. Also, like all other countries, we should negotiate the price of medicines. My God, we are the only nation that pays MSRP (Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price) for our life saving medicines. Anyone, in their right mind can see that this is because we allow these corporations to finance the electoral process and therefore "own" the politicians who make the laws. It is totally insane and if it continues, this plus the other "corporate friendly" legislation will obviously (it already is) lead to the complete ruin of our country. Look at the ridiculous distribution of wealth in our country. 1% of the population has more wealth than the other 95% combined. Wake up Americans. Demand equality. Repeal these "corporate friendly", (individual destroying), "free trade acts." Take all corporate money out of the electoral process (it will save Americans trillions of dollars) and put term limits on elected officials, because they take money from corporations to eliminate our civil rights. Rights like; a living wage job,and many,many more. If we have to take to the street's, let's get it over with. Our children will thank us for it.

[inna]

79. +1.

I'm with you.

[dotymed]

93. Hey, I'd rather be

with you.....San Francisco has to be warmer (and bluer) than Indiana. Have a great Holidays Inna.

[David Zephyr]

26. I know how you feel. I applaud your honesty.

I love folks who can take in facts and then adjust previous held positions, even dear one.

This was not an easy road for me, either.

Obama lied throughout his campaign about meds from Canada and then worked to sabotage the Dorgan Amendment for his pharmaceutical buddies. He lied.

I don't trust him anymore.

He's just a politician now in my eyes.

He lied about something needed by so many.

He's lost me. He's better than Bush. That's all I can say now.

[common_sensor]

30. Movement politics..Dean jumped a few notches in standing!

I unsubscribed from ofa today, and pissed doesn't adequately describe my attitude towards the Obama administration right now. It's one thing to "let congress do their job", and very much another to sit and do nothing while the wrong and the pseudo democrats sell out to the corporate citizen.

I'm getting closer to believing the administration got exactly what it wanted, and dealt for. What really is necessary is to be involved in taking back our government via political dissent, active involvement in promoting progressive ideas, and movement politics.

-cs

[pundaint]

34. Except he didn't sit and do nothing, he worked against actual reform.

At every opportunity he picked concession of reforms and capitulation to his chosen party, over the People's interests. This has been a frighteningly amateurish bit of governing.

[BrklynLiberal]

31. YES!!! Check out this article by David Sirota.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x503516

[rhett o rick]

32. Stick a fork in us, we are done. nt

[pundaint]

35. I wont be done until I vote against the incumbents.

[FunMe]

36. MANY like you have waken up to the truth about the OLIGARCHY that has taken over our government

It's time to fight back!

We know all those clowns are CORPORATE WHORES who just want to rob us of our country's $$$$.

Well We The People still have the power. Keep exposing those liars of both parties who continue to not care about us. It is a class war. And we win as long as we keep united and support our true progressives.

I do believe the oligarchy elite is getting scared of the fact that thanks to the "internets" more people know about how they have BETRAYED the American people and United States Constitution.

And yes to Dean! Let's continue to support him ... he speaks truth to power.

[FarLeftFist]

37. I'm having flashbacks of a Teabagger August.

Kill the Bill. Hmmmm, where did I hear that one before?

[FrenchieCat]

38. I remember August, so many of us were too busy demanding

single payer and arguing with the White House, rather than getting our asses out to the town halls.

I remember it well!

"Seriously, they're all over DU shouting 'KILL THE BILL!' ... it's the funniest thing! I guess we can take next week off."
WASHINGTON - DECEMBER 17: Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ) confers with Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) during a news conference by Republican Senators

[ima_sinnic]

45. where was Obama? He could have shut them down fast

but he chose not to.

I wonder why that was?

[jberryhill]

88. Sorry, dude, I got my ass to my rep's town hall...

Check the Delaware Forum here if you don't believe me. I tried to get other DU'ers to go with me.

There are good things in this bill. But the combination of the mandate with no public option or medicare buy-in is a "no sale" with me. That is a toxic combination.

So, yes, like the OP, I changed my mind on this.

Calling us in "agreement" with the looney right is intellectually dishonest, and you know it.

HOW DARE YOU sit there and tell me what I didn't do, when in fact I DID.

[ima_sinnic]

44. yeah, Dean & the rest of us outraged at this extortion are "just like the teabaggers"

apparently you have a nice cushy employer-provided health care plan so the rest of us are just "whiners" and irrational "obstructionists" who don't appreciate the important work being done on our behalf in the insurance company love-fest being played out in Washington--from Obama on down.

KILL THE BILL, because the insurance company CEOs are already obscenely wealthy and their bottom line is not very high on my list of priorities right now.

But if your employer plan runs dry (which it surely will), you are free to be extorted without complaining about it.

[HughLefty1]

86. My insurance premiums have doubled the past few years..

The right wing have their idiot teabaggers.

It's time we progressives get out and make some noise of our own.

Yes it's time for some change. I hate to say it but the Dems and Rethugs are basically the same pro-war, pro-corporation party.

[jberryhill]

92. It was a DIFFERENT BILL in August....

Do you really not understand that this thing has been gutted?


You know, a many years ago I used to hug my father.

I don't do that anymore because he is a corpse.

Things change - and this bill has died and decayed to something I don't want to hug anymore.

[Senator]

40. K&+R

[YewNork]

47. Kill the bill, but how many years before we'll have this opportunity again?

If this bill is killed, it will be exactly what the Republicans want. They'll take over one, if not both houses in Congress in 2010 and it will be Obama's Waterloo as was their desire.
There will be a Republican in the White House in 2012.

In the meantime, how many people with pre-existing conditions will die because the insurance companies don't have to cover them?

[TBF]

52. That's already guaranteed by killing public option.

He's already blown it. Doesn't matter if what's left passes or not because there's really nothing of substance left.

[eridani]

54. Passage of the bill is going to guarantee Republican takeover

Teabaggers would hate the bill even if it required the insurance companies to write them checks for ten grand every year, just because Obama was for it. Grassroots Dems don't want to be forced to buy shitty underinsurance from people who pay their employees bonuses to deny claims. Huge numbers of people are going to object to the obliteration of middle class discretionary income. People are going to hate having no recourse in the event of claims denial, and they are going to hate costs continuing to spiral out of control Union members will be furious at taxes on their negotiated health care plans. People 50-65 don't appreciate being treated like disposable human garbage, forced to pay 3 times as much for an invisible product that won't get them health care. Etc.

[dotymed]

72. Just like Napoleon,

Obama created his own "waterloo" by not working for Americans. I have a pre-existing condition. I have heart failure and can't get a job and can't get my disability and Union pension because SS says I can work some type of job..maybe as a "ticket taker" (really). I will be dead long before any (if any people are) people with pre-existing conditions are helped. I am sure I could not afford their "coverage" anyway, there are no caps! This is not a "bill" it is an insurance subsidy. I am 48. I am supposed to take 20 pills a day, one of them is morphine so the pain of my heart muscle dying isn't too bad. I really need it so the pain of watching my country being pillaged isn't too bad. My carpenters union "cadillac plan" ends in March... my cardiologist (from the best hospital in the state) was amazed when I was refused my SS disability for the 3rd time.

[madokie]

50. Are you saying they used slightly tainted meat to make the sausage with?

Guess why they made sausage to begin with, the spices are to cover the smell of the tainted meat

[midnight]

53. K&R

[ChiciB1]

58. WELCOME ABOARD! That's All Needs To Be Said! Oh & Thanks...

WE NEED TO FIGHT BACK, with HOWARD DEAN on our side!!!

[southernyankeebelle]

59. I am on that train already. I hope he runs for president.

[zoff]

60. Don't send any incumbents any more money ...

... unless they've shown that they are on the peoples side by their voting record, on HCR, on war, etc..

[Doctor_J]

61. FOr me, it's just a matter of whom I can trust. When the choice is Lieberman or Dean,

there is no contest. Anyone who trusts Holy Joe after the last few years has to be a freeper.

[John Q. Citizen]

62. Dean finally realized what others saw last June. If you write a bill the industry supports,

it's bad for the rest of us.

Teddy Roosevelt didn't compromise with the trusts and split the difference.


He broke the trusts, and is famous for having done so.

[defendandprotect]

63. Thank you for letting us know . ..

Don't know if Dean will try to lead us out of this desert --

But I do know that as long as the only competition the Democratic Party has

is from the near-fascist GOP, then the Democratic Party will continue to move to the right.

We need IRV voting -- and we need to get the two parties off the necks of third parties.

As long as voters have no other options than the two corporate parties, then there will

be no respect showm to the voters.

Candidates are pre-bribed and pre-owned by corporations --

Our elected officials aren't working for us, they are working for their corporate masters.

Unfortunate, but this is ssomething we have to realize. The leadership, in particularly, is

corrupted.

Hopefully there will be solutions within the Democratic Party -- however, consider how the

DLC hates Dean -- helped in the attack on him over the "scream" -- and once more attacked him

the other day as "not rational" . . . I'm not confident this will happen.

Corporations want as many right wingers in office as possible doing their bidding.

This is a people's government, allegedly -- not a government of, by and for corporations!!

And, this is fascism. Without doubt. And, over 40 years now of buying government, it's fairly

deeply entrenched. It's not going to be easy. But the hard part, oftimes, is understanding

what is really going on.

Best wishes to you -- and to all of us!!



:)

[zonkers]

66. Onboard.

[Lucky Luciano]

67. Kapo Joe. I like it because Kapo Joe would be EXTREMELY offendedby that nickname! nt

[Liberation Angel]

71. kapo joe lieberman - that says it all. Rabbis in Connecticut oppose his position

and have urged him to back off his asininity.

He is just like the Kapos in the ghetto doing the work of the insurance/pharmacy Nazis and selling out his people and all people.

[EndElectoral]

68. I'm with Dean on this one. Kill this turkey.

[Truth2Tell]

76. TOO MUCH POO! K&R nt

[Vidar]

82. K&R.

[HughLefty1]

85. Count me as another!

[juno jones]

89. K&R!

Another point I'm not seeing addressed.

Older people and those with pre-existing conditions will pay 3X more. Will we get 3X more subsidy to cover it?

I didn't think so.

This is gonna wind up being the most discrimanatory to older working folk who have been unable to carry insurance before and have a few of those relatively harmless ailments that are taken for 'pre-existing conditions' these days.

[butterfly77]

90. No Thanks...