Joe Klein: The Left-Blogosphere Melts Down -"This issue is just too serious for preening or ranting"

[Are_grits_groceries]

My reaction to today's sudden silliness is below. But both Jonathan Cohn of the New Republic and Ezra Klein of the Washington Post have weighed in as well--and they are two of the wisest, best-informed health care wonks extant.

This issue is just too serious for preening or ranting. There are millions of poor people who have no health insurance--tens of thousands of them with serious illnesses--who will be subsidized to buy health insurance and able to receive both preventive and chronic care for the first time if this imperfect bill passes. This is a massive move toward progressivity, an enormous new entitlement for the working poor. The opposition by Republicans was no surprise, nor was the chicanery of a few Democratic conservatives in the Senate, but I'm just dumbstruck by those on the left who would oppose this for whatever ideological fetishes they imagine are being traduced. It is simply amazing and absolutely disgraceful. Grow up.

Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/12/16/the-left-blogosphere-melts-down/#ixzz0ZzRnTjPe

I am so effing tired of everybody saying that the leftwing is the problem. We haven't even been given a seat at the table on anything.
At my last take on the whole thing, ONE of us wasn't changing the whole bill with a word or two.
They can go SCREW themselves!

Edit: If I ever do start a rant after all the shit thrown this way, I don't think I could stop. Calling me names will really get my help.

[mix]

1. k&r nt

I detest Klein...but your comment about "blaming the left" for this debacle resonated with me. This meme is now heard among the small group of rabid Obama supporters here, as well as among the sundry centrists and conservatives polluting the political landscape.

[AndrewP]

41. It's the new talking point.

[mix]

53. What makes them so...afraid? nt

[joeybee12]

2. Joe Klein is a liar...why does he have a job, the man who denied and denied

having written Primary Colors, and then it came out that he did indeed write the piece of tripe. He's a walking disgrace.

[Nikki Stone1]

47. +1

Klein's a first rate bastard.

[madfloridian]

3. They both usually take the party leadership side.

Though they both come up with good stuff... when push comes to shove they go after the left.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

4. Joke Line... he earned the nickname

[Demoiselle]

5. Did Joe Klein just come out against free speech? Or am I just "preening?"

[laughingliberal]

7. A man who advocates passing Liebercare accuses the left of preening

Pot...Kettle.....

[laughingliberal]

6. Klein can bite me! He's been predicting the death of the public option and defending a bill without

one since July.

[Frances]

8. Sorry but your post does sound childish

Did you think the the mainstream media and Repubs and Lieberman and a few Dems would just do what is right for the country?

Did you know how effective that same coalition was on healthcare back in 1994?

Did you know how effective that coalition was in eliminating Dean from the Dem primary in 2004 by amplifying a rallying cry into the famous scream?

Did you know how effective that coalition was in swiftboating Kerry?

Murdoch and Fox news have upped the ante a great deal from 2004. There was no Beck then.

Now you are playing right into their hands by taking your ball and going home.

[SIMPLYB1980]

10. Yep.

[Are_grits_groceries]

13. Are you talking to me?

I didn't say word one about taking my ball and going anywhere. In addition, I have been doing what I can to push for a decent health care plan. NOBODY appears to be paying one bit of attention.

We are ONE group and not one that anybody was paying any attention to anyway. AND if I'm not incorrect, we kept compromising even though we weren't happy and we pushed for the next best plan that came up.

Now we are down to the nubs and back to where we started or worse.Then suddenly when they do hear us, we are told it's all our fault and to shut up.

So now I'm CHILDISH because I'm fed up and have something to say about this SNAFU. My bad. NOT!

[Frances]

22. As I posted below

I am totally for getting a WIN out of this situation.

It's OK with me if we Progressives make calls asking our Reps to vote for things that no one thinks controversial: no caps, no pre-existing conditions. I'd love to see the Repubs vote against those things!

[Are_grits_groceries]

28. Everything is controversial.

The Rethugs twist it that way and nobody tries hard enough to twist it back.
"There have to be caps or the CBO says premiums will go through the roof."

And I want a WIN too, but if you think passing the bill is going to qualify alone as a win, you're wrong. We will have to fight every inch of the way as it is put into action because the Rethugs will never give up. Any problem will be magnified all out of proportion and if nobody anticipates it and follows the same old game plan, the Dems will be stuck holding what will look like a bad mess.

[LoZoccolo]

9. Once you imply that Democrats are the same as Republicans, you toss your credibility.

Preserve it and people might be willing to give you that seat. Start off with ridiculousness and they're not sure how much more they'll have to endure.

[Forkboy]

12. Says the one who calls DUers "Palin Democrats".

:crazy:

[LoZoccolo]

38. I didn't say that.

Palin Democrats are the same people I criticize in that reply.

[Are_grits_groceries]

21. And where is that implication?

In addition, I have held my fire for a long time and asked very nicely. That really got me a seat - in the bleachers and behind a post.
And what are you talking about by how much more THEY will have to endure?

[LoZoccolo]

39. It's been all over this place for the last two days.

One of the top posts was saying that the Democrats can go to hell.

Try this: getting more people to agree with you, so it's no longer "fringe". Lay the groundwork, and take responsibility for the fact that your ideas - right or wrong -are not yet widely supported. What are you going to do about that? That's not a rhetorical question.

Or keep doing what you're doing and see what it gets you.

[Are_grits_groceries]

40. Try it?

What do you think I have been working for? I have worked for single payer, and when that was never put on the table, I worked for the public option. Every plan I have worked for has been taken down by someone else such as Lieberman, and then I get called names.

There is support for these plans. The polls were showing there is. Congress wouldn't listen, and more and more things were taken out of the bill.

The other point is that the progressives were never taken seriously. They were just taken for granted. How do you expect people to react after they have spent a great deal of time, effort, and money to support the Democrats, and then they are barely acknowledged. I never expected for all the items I wanted to go through especially with the economic mess. I was patient and willing to wait.

However, what frayed it was the total disregard and respect for the positions of the progressives and the progressives themselves. If we suggested something, it was ignored or dismissed as irrelevant. It didn't matter what the issue was. Lieberman and others were coddled and every word they uttered was listened to.

You can't treat people like that and then expect us to throw rose petals back. We expect to be IN the process and fighting for what we want. We never expected to be so minimized and shut out to rumble on the outside.

[LoZoccolo]

54. How did you work for single-payer and public option?

DU doesn't count as activism. It's simply the biggest online game in the world.

[Are_grits_groceries]

61. You aren't my Mama or my overseer thank you very much!

You should get your ladder and get back on your very high horse from which you survey DU and judge all who don't meet your standards. I don't have to justify myself to you or anybody else.

One last answer though so you want take the above answer as a dodge of your smug question: I called, wrote, and sent money. I didn't stick to my own state since I live in SC.

[LoZoccolo]

87. So let me get this straight.

You know what to do to help single-payer and/or the public option along, and all these other people on this board want those things too, but you won't share with them what they should so to get it? People up and down this place would love to help out! But you not only don't want to tell us how, but you actually get hostile about being asked?

It sounds to me like you don't want me to ask you any more questions.

[Voltaire]

70. I am with you

It sickens me to see the Left demonized as they have been in this thing. Anyone who thinks that the insurance companies will abide any of the "ahem" restrictions on them in this bill is a fucking fool. When have they EVER done that? There are so many loopholes in the bill as to make it useless, whether it insures 3 more or 30 million more people. It is selling us further into slavery to the insurance companies. At the end of the day THEY CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO SURVIVE AND KILL THE REST OF US.

But many don't get it. But they will get it. Oh my yes, they will get it. But it will be too fucking late.

Leftists are never listened too until its too late. They are demonized in the meantime. And they are nearly never wrong in their societial predictions. Read a history book to see the future, folks.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

68. Horseshit.

The majority of people DO agree. That's the whole fucking point. Fringe, my ass.

CBS) A clear majority of Americans -- 72 percent -- support a government-sponsored health care plan to compete with private insurers, a new CBS News/New York Times poll finds. Most also think the government would do a better job than private industry at keeping down costs and believe that the government should guarantee health care for all Americans.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/19/opinion/polls/main5098517.shtml

[CTyankee]

83. Polling on the public option and Medicare buy do not support your statement, Lo.

They are "widely supported" in the general public.

Read the poll results. They're out there.

Do you think it is a good idea for Congress to pass something that the general public does NOT want?

[Hello_Kitty]

11. I'm so sick of these corporatist enablers trotting out poor people as props

Poor people will be helped by this bill because Medicaid will be expanded. That could have been done without a giant giveaway to bloodsucking insurance vultures.

Always be wary when someone starts spouting concern for the poor when they've never shown any interest in them before.

[Frances]

17. You make a good point

I think Progressives should list the things we are FOR in the bill and then call our Congress people and ask that they vote for those things and leave the other things out of the bill.

That way we could possibly be successful. For example, if Dems vote for an end to a cap on benefits and for an end to discrimination based on prior conditions that would be good for them in 2010. If the Repubs vote against those things which I think they will, then Repubs would be at a disadvantage.

But please Dems let's think of some way to WIN this ballgame. Just saying we're going to take our ball and go home is just as childish as saying it's all Obama's fault that the Repubs and Lieberman and Fox News have lied and lied and lied.

[Gregorian]

20. Thanks. I needed that reminder of what could be versus what is.

I could probably write a book on this kind of thing. Giving something up because it doesn't have something crucial that I want, but has some of what I want. People think I"m nuts because I keep trying to find that "perfect" _______. In my case, it's real estate. But in this case it's something they're calling ideology? It's far greater than ideology. It's corporate monstrosities.

Well, you said it better than me. Thanks.

[otohara]

43. Millionaire Pundits & Columnists Know Best

and because they have lots of money, homes, great health insurance ... acting grown-up is, I would imagine...easier.

Desperate people lash out, millionaires stay calm.

[GreenPartyVoter]

76. Unless they actually take up with the idea of having a state opt-out for Medicaid too. I forget

who suggested it, but I fear greatly that it will catch on. Medicaid is the only health care assistance my family has.

[Hello_Kitty]

77. Ben Nelson wants it

And my state, Arizona, will be the first to opt out, I guarantee it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

78. I hope the majority of Senators look at medicaid like medicare, a third rail not

to be touched.

[Hello_Kitty]

81. Sadly, no. Medicare goes to middle class seniors who vote.

Medicaid goes to poor people. There is no political downside to shitting on the poor in America.

[GreenPartyVoter]

82. True :^(

[tularetom]

14. Bigots prancing around with signs portraying Obama as a Nazi are a serious political movement

But people who raise thoughtful objections to a crappy health care bill need to "grow up".

We are all fucked.

[alarimer]

15. They still won't have health care under this bill.

They might have some kind of crappy "insurance" that won't cover anything and which has deductibles that are much too high, so they STILL won't have health "care" but the evil insurance companies will make a shitload of money of the mandate.

Fuck this bill and its supporters. And fuck Obama for breaking yet another promise about mandates and about reimportation of drugs. He is a liar.

[Larkspur]

16. Rahm's troops are using the same meme's they used against Dean in 2004

The problem with Obama's WH is that it is chock full of Clintonistas who are trying to relive the 1990's. Bill Clinton didn't have the Internet and savvy progressive activists to contend with. Obama does and I'm glad we're driving Rahm insane.

[glitch]

73. The Clintonistas are trying to rectify their failures in the same way the Bushistas tried to rectify

theirs. I was really hoping Obama could break us out of this destructive cycle.

It's like watching a pathetic mid-life crisis in slo-mo, all fast red convertibles and toupes, or maybe a Hummer and plugs, blatant to everyone else.
You want to laugh but it is just too painful.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. He's "dumbstruck" by the left's reaction to a RW controlled bill? I'll bet he is.

How dare the left speak out against the right. We should all just hold our noses and give the DLC and it's administration a big wet kiss while admiring the lipstick they applied to that pig of bill.

[gratuitous]

19. Ah, we're "preening and ranting"

Let me check the archives, and see what concomitant comments Joke Line had about the tea-baggers and their wholly uninformed shoutfests throughout August . . . Huh, nothing to see! He didn't tell those people to "grow up" while they shouted down their representatives. He didn't talk about imaginary slights when people were jumping up and down about "keeping government out of Medicare" or "death panels." Seems like Joke Line's tut-tutting is reserved for only one side of the debate.

[madfloridian]

23. I am going to preen and rant more....I am not the problem

I am not the problem, we are not the problem

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Hey Joe, BITE ME

it is not the left you ass. The American people WANT a public option, but I guess the POWER ELITES that you are part off, cannot afford to give to the people what they want. We know, you don't work for us, nor do you fear us.

[FLAprogressive]

25. The New Republic is a no-longer-relevant neoconservative magazine

[HuckleB]

32. Got Red Herring?

:rofl:

[Hello_Kitty]

44. How is it a red herring to consider the source of the article?

Many publications have an agenda and publish articles that promote it.

[HuckleB]

45. It's a red herring to ignore the content.

You and I both know that.

Try again.

[Hello_Kitty]

48. Which is exactly what Klein is doing when he ignores the content of the criticism

Of the "preening, ranting Left".

[HuckleB]

56. He's not ignoring anything.

And you're continuing to rant without content.

[sendero]

26. No Joe..

... this issue is too important to allow the industries who stand to profit write the legislation.

[Mari333]

27. lousy shill..knr

[charlie]

29. Same old Klein schtick

He's been picking fights with the blogosphere for most of this decade. He hates them because it no longer takes a month between issues of The Nation to fact-check his dumb ass.

And anyone who disagrees with him is delegated to The Left, like it or not. The deranged, America-hating Left (Yes, the Left he's holding point against hates America. He's told us often enough).

He's just a tired, petulant old gossip monger.

[HuckleB]

30. K & R. Thank you, Mr. Klein, for bringing some knowledge and reason to the table.

[Skittles]

31. see, corporations never "rant" and "preen"

just those of us who can see what's really going on

[walldude]

33. Melts down? More like fucking heats up!

Boy they don't like it when we all come together..

[Jamastiene]

51. No, they don't.

When they try to shout you down like that, it means they are running scared. They know we are onto them and they want to quieten us down. None of their scare tactics scare us any more. We have nothing, so we have nothing to lose. That REALLY scares them.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. It sounds like he's channeling Spiro Agnew circa 1970. "Effete Intellectual Snobs" next?

[HughMoran]

35. I agree with Joe

I will benefit from this bill too.

[TheWatcher]

88. Well, as long as YOU benefit from it.

:eyes:

Transparent as ever.

[JVS]

36. Like Joe Klein and the DLC give two flying rat shits about the poor. They just want to enrich...

insurance companies.

[Hello_Kitty]

37. Yeah, the poor are being helped because Medicaid is being expanded to include more of them

[eridani]

64. Bullshit; You need no "reform" at all to do that.

Just revisit the original bill and make budget adjustments.\
Edit--sorry, missed the sarcasm.

[Hello_Kitty]

72. Oh I agree. I said the same upthread.

It is bullshit to claim that mandating working class people to buy crappy private insurance helps "the poor". They could expand Medicaid to cover a lot more people and give states the money to pay and maintain it. Probably be a lot cheaper than subsidizing private corporations.

[QC]

42. Joe Klein is, and always has been, a big gaping asshole. n/t

[HuckleB]

46. Maybe, but he's right.

[QC]

50. No. This is just more of the usual apologetics.

This so-called reform will discredit the very idea of health care reform and insure that nothing meaningful is done for many years. That will not benefit anyone--other than corporate executives, of course--least of all the poor whom Joe has suddenly discovered.

[HuckleB]

57. Hardly.

Most of us would have been ecstatic about such a bill two years ago. It's ludicrous to overstate the problems with this bill, and pretend that it's some horrific nightmare.

[girl gone mad]

63. If that's even remotely true, you should be able to explain why..

Obama opposed a bill with mandates and promised a public option while on the campaign trail, yet won.

[HuckleB]

84. Are you joking?

Do you not understand politics? No president gets everything.

Wow!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. Jonathan Cohn and Ezra Klein are talking like Republicans

You know, whenever Republicans want to screw you over, they say it's for the benefit of "the poor."

Minimum wage laws?
Oh, no, that keeps "the poor" from being hired.

Social Security?
Oh, no, most of "the poor" won't live long enough to collect benefits.

Public schools?
Oh, no, they are dumping grounds for "the poor," who need vouchers to attend private schools.

Public rail transit?
Oh, no, that would take away money from the buses that "the poor" ride.

Health and safety laws?
Oh, no, they make it hard for "the poor" to start businesses.

Corporate welfare for the insurance companies with unaffordable mandates, but not for another four years?
If you're against that, you're against "the poor."

[BzaDem]

62. Maybe instead of coming to the conclusion that Cohn/Klein/Krugman are Republicans

you should think "Hmmmm. Many knowledgeable progressives well educated about healthcare and healthcare economics all think this bill should pass. Maybe I should re-examine my own views on the matter."

But nope. That would require at least a semblance of rationality.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. I didn't say they WERE Republicans

but I do think that they're such party loyalists that they'll promote any party program, no matter how flawed it is, just to have a "victory" over the Republicans.

However, if this pile of ordure passes, the hit to people's pocketbooks will be enormous, and in the end, it will be one of the worst decisions the Dems every made.

[CTyankee]

85. Here's a problem I foresee:

The mandates on the middle class force people to buy insurance that may just be too damn expensive because there is no public option. Meanwhile, yes, the poor and near poor get expanded Medicaid. All the Republicans have to do is play the "divide and conquer" game. "They" are getting all the services and benefits and "we" pay their bills. Where's the help for "us"? Do you see where I'm going with this?

It's going to be this whole class warfare that the Republicans have been pushing for years...the poor get free stuff and we working stiffs get screwed...

Don't discount their doing this...they've done it before with great success and they'll do it again. Another congressional cycle with more Repubs and we'll be back where we were and maybe worse.

[JHB]

52. I've seen several places that liken this to the run-up to the Iraq invasion...

...with "the left" arguing against the invasion for practical reasons that turned out largely to be correct, vs. the Washington-oriented policy wonks and pundits, who basically let the Bushies spook and cajole them into going along. If memory serves, Joe was in the latter set.

How'd that work out, Joe? and why should we trust your judgement now?

[SteveM]

55. It should be crystal clear: the "Left" has no political party or base...

The "Right" has a party and a tough-as-nails base which NEVER gives up on a rigid philosophy characterized by brevity and clarity.

The "Left" is merely some liberal remnants from the last days of LBJ, and McGovern activism. The Democratic Party since this time has moved to the center-right and made peace with corporate power in the most thorough manner. So it is neither unusual nor the first time that "The Left" is held up by the Democrats as the problem. They see the Right's success story and emulate it (and know this: the Democratic Party is quite afraid of the Right).

I don't think many on these pages really are aware of the extent of how politics have changed in the last 35+ years. We are a one-party Republic (GOP) which has some viability in its elections, enough to allow occasional replacement of Republicans with a number of people who call themselves "Democrats." The biggest fear of these Democrats "in power" is that the whole shh-bang -- the government structure, the economy, the viability of democracy -- will soon come undone in favor of The Right, the only force/movement which has the power to run this country. So they cling to a non-ideological portfolio (as if they can avoid being tagged at political dodge-ball) and lash out at the only people they have enough juice to attack: "the Left."

There ain't much left of the left. It certainly isn't in the Democratic Party. And it certainly isn't in any other institution. Frankly, I don't know where it is. It's only mythical purpose is that of but-boy.

[debbierlus]

58. Fuck them - they have started a war with the liberals & we will finish it

Fuck them.

Hard.

[autorank]

59. Joe's party line. I must say, he's a total ass.

Blaming the left. How totally clever and original, not!

Putting up a lousy package that won't go into effect for four years with the insurance companies
at the center of it ... that might have had something to do with it.

But not to Joe. He's got to blame someone rather than talk about the issues.

More of the same from the usual suspects!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

60. He's not saying that you're the problem. He's saying that you're nuts. n/t

[eridani]

65. All the 50-65 year olds being turned into second class citizen by this bill

--are a little nuts. Being forced to pay 3 times as much for invisible nonsense that doesn't get you health care can do that to you.

[glitch]

74. From him it's a compliment. But I can see why you might not think so. nt

[lib2DaBone]

67. I agree.. but this bill is a lose-lose situation....

... the devil is in the fine print.

This bill will allow Big Insurance to set up shop in the State of their choosing, which means they will only have to answer to the laws of that State. They will be allowed to raise rates at will and sell Insurance across State lines. This is a TREMENDOUS gift to them... inserted into the bill by the lobbyists. No wonder they are High-fiving this bill. It will, basically... allow them to ignore ALL attempts at future federal regulation. It is a built-in perpetual "Get out of Jail Free" card.

You think your insurance rates are going up fast now? Just wait....

So all the good things you point out about this bill will be ignored by Big Insurance and the bad things are still hidden in the weasel wording and escape clauses, waiting to ooze out into the light of day.

"The big print giveth... the fine print taketh away.."

[Odin2005]

69. Well, I was rocking and hand-flapping like crazy after they trashed Dean, if that's what you mean...

*waits for other Aspie posters to get the post*

[hayu_lol]

71. Thanks Grits...I really enjoy most of your threads...

Health Care: Kill the damn thing. It already has more band aids on it than words.

Bankruptcy Bill: "We'll fix it later."

Medicare Part D: "We'll fix it later."

Preening: Something our Reps and Senators do very well...ummm...when they should be working on our behalf. They have not on this bill.

Single-Payer National Health Plan: "Damn the Torpedoes, full speed ahead."

[BurtWorm]

75. It's serious enough to warrant collapsing and retreating,eh joe?

:eyes:

[Laelth]

79. I agree with your sentiments, reposted below.

Are_grits_groceries wrote:

I am so effing tired of everybody saying that the leftwing is the problem. We haven't even been given a seat at the table on anything.
At my last take on the whole thing, ONE of us wasn't changing the whole bill with a word or two.
They can go SCREW themselves!

The Administration is obviously putting pressure on sympathetic figures in the media to toe the party line on this bill and attack dissenters.

Note the same tactic used against liberal bloggers in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7264461

The Administration needs to know that we can see what they are doing, and we are not happy about it. It's manipulative and unethical.

:dem:

-Laelth

[kenny blankenship]

80. He's a scumbag. Always was a scumbag. Will always be a scumbag.

So what else can you expect to ooze out of him?

[tbyg52]

86. WE are "preening and ranting"

'Scuse me while I puke. Populist revolt, anyone?