The so called discussion of the so called Health Care Reform Bill proves one thing atleast

[grantcart]

More Americans need to live abroad for a while.


Matthews and others charachterizing single payer as some revolutionary plan is like watching some anti Marijuana documentary from 1948. You knew that there are people who think that way you just didn't think that they would make their opinions public.


Single Payer is favored by the CONSERVATIVES in Europe, Canada, etc.


If you develop a close relationship with a European there will inevitably come a time when they will say "I have one question about Americans that I don't really understand, why don't they see Health Care for everyone as a simple basic right?".


I have had dozens and dozens of these discussions and you can evaluate how close you are when they tell you how the feel about it. They may even be 100% pro American and even love baseball but they all use the same word.


I was astonished when having spent two long days one on one with one of the richest man of the world that he trusted me enough to use the word.


Ingmar Komprad (the founder and owner of IKEA) used the same word that I had heard over and over again; Barbaric.


That is how Europeans see the issue, even the most pro American bank owner that crosses the street when he sees a Turk coming up the street in Geneva.

[endless october]

1. chart says it all :

[riderinthestorm]

5. That's a great chart but where's it from?

Do you have a link?

I'd also be interested in if you think it's worth every American paying so much more than the Germans for example, to live an extra 3 years +/- to get beyond 80 years old?

[Metatron]

11. Here's the link

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/health/spend/cost_longlife75.gif

[riderinthestorm]

13. Thanks for the link.

That's one part of it, I'm interested in what point he's trying to make though. That's a lot of dollars spent for every man, woman and child in the US to bring Americans over the 80 years old mark.....

Full disclosure: I'm a dual citizen, Irish and American so if things gets catastrophic for me, I'll go to Ireland for health care instead of bankrupting my family but frankly I think it's crazy to spend that much per person just to get that kind of longevity. It's coming at such a huge cost; millions of Americans who cannot see the doctor. Crazy.

[endless october]

15. of course i don't think it's worth spending more to get a lower life expectancy.

that's why i posted the chart.

[BeFree]

2. heh

Our problem is that we have so many levels of barbarics.

They really don't give a crap about others. Even the discussions here on DU are too centered around what's in it for 'Me'. We live in a me society, not a we.

Barbaric, indeed.

[Cleita]

3. Tweety needs to get out of Washington once in awhile as well as go

abroad. I would like him to go on The Ed Show sometime and say what he says. I don't think he dares. I remember Rachel calling him on his BS some time ago. He has never gone on her show since then. She handed his ass back to him politely, but unequivocally.

[tabatha]

4. Thom Hartmann has a video on this board

where he talks about his visit to Denmark, where he asked for the most conservative conservatives in Denmark to come on this show - and not one of them wanted to change their health care plans.

The US persons against health care could actually be likened to standing by while holocaust-in-slow-motion takes place. That may be an extreme word to use, but what the wealthy have done to this country is just that - caused people to lose their homes, fall sick without treatment, be without food, etc. There are no gas chambers - just removing health, food and water will do the trick without messy chemicals. And if people fall by the wayside despite doing everything right, then it is their fault - they should have pulled themselves up with their boot straps, in the free-don't-give-a-damn-about-anyone-but-myself-markets.

[grantcart]

6. The most honored person in Canada is the one who brought single payer

He is considered the "Greatest Canadian" to have ever lived and has the same level of respect that Lincoln does here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Canadian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas

[tabatha]

8. Yes, I heard about him.

I think two of his relatives are actors - Donald Sutherland and Keifer Sutherland?

[whirlygigspin]

9. taiwan loves their single payer system...and it's run by fascists

[RainDog]

7. I heard the same thing from a v-p at Smith-Klein pharmaceuticals

Who lives in Belgium, and has a couple of houses and bought a couple of houses for his kids. Funny, but he can be extremely rich and live in a nation that has national health care...and support that national health care because to do otherwise is insane for the well-being of a nation.

He also said that, yes, people abuse systems at all levels, all the time. That's why you have oversight.. but there are always corrupt people within a system. However, the overall good outweighs any abuse.

Americans do not realize how much bullshit they put up with from our govt.

[TwilightGardener]

10. If you can't afford to pay the doctor, you don't deserve to see a doctor--

that's the American way.

[Blue_Tires]

12. Michael Moore even made a movie over there

guess it was all for naught...

[carolinayellowdog]

14. All it takes is one trip to Europe to see the contrast

The power of the insurance companies is so ubiquitous that Americans take it for granted. We tolerate conditions that are absolutely intolerable to citizens of most of our major allies. Especially with health care but also with vacation and retirement benefits, Americans are much worse off. Visiting friends in France, England, and Canada, I have felt impressed with how much more secure their lives are in many ways than ours.

[grantcart]

16. You can see Canada from Seattle

but the camoflague the health care!

[Solly Mack]

17. Yes. It's the same for me in Germany...and with the usual German frankness.

Blunt and to the point: "What is wrong with Americans?"