Taibbi,Kuttner Debate Health Care Bill On "Bill Moyers Journal" (Video)

[democracy1st]

American Prospect's Robert Kuttner and Rollingstone's Matt Taibbi agree that the health care bill taking shape in the Senate is a bad one. Despite that acknowledgment, Kuttner believes progressives should vote for the bill, while Taibbi thinks it should be voted down.

Both writers offer their analysis of the health care bill on PBS's Bill Moyers Journal this Friday at 9 p.m. ET.

To Kuttner, progressives risk hurting their election efforts in 2010 and 2012 if they don't support President Obama's efforts. Obama, Kuttner argues, has staked his presidency on the passage of this bill, and if it fails in Congress, he argues, "...it will make Obama even more gun shy about promoting more reform, it will create even more political paralysis, it will embolden the Republicans to block what this president is trying to do--some of which is good--at every turn. So I would hold my nose and vote for it." Kuttner believes that concessions made by the White House in its deal with Big Pharma are responsible for the dilemma.

Taibbi argues that if the Democrats had catered to their constituency from the beginning, and not to the health care industry, Republicans would have far less to gain from the bill's failure. Taibbi believes that there will be better chances for reform in the future, "I think it's much better for the Democrats to lose on this issue and then have to regroup maybe eight years later, six years later, and try again and do a better job the next time then to have it go through."

WATCH:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/18/taibi-kuttner-debate-heal_n_397757.html

[still_one]

1. Kuttner is wrong. If they pass a bad bill, it will condemn Democrats for decades /nt

[LaPera]

2. Fuck the democrats being condemned - It's the poor and the workers who will hurt

with this bullshit pro insurance laced bill.

That's what this is supposed to be about, 100% for the people who desperately need affordable health care and that the insurance corporations are for profit and should never of been considered & allowed this bullshit!

If Obama and the Dems needed this bill so badly for re-election then Obama should of fought a fuck of a lot harder than he has....he thought he could just slide on by with any bill, right by the Democratic progressives, we wouldn't pay much attention nor really care as long as a bill THEY said was good and he would be cheered at State of the Union for what he will call reform....

Obama didn't give a fuck and worried far too much about the republicans and Snowe and Nelson and just gave away the peoples health care to fucking Lieberman and the insurance companies....This should be about the people...not politics or profits!

I could never see FDR JFK LBJ doing this weak ass shit and saying take what we offer because the corporations will get angry if we go too far and their donations might not flow so let the insurance companies continue making the rules, stealing & giving away even more billions of our workers tax dollars to the insurance industry.

[still_one]

5. I agree, but tell me how you are going to pass a GOOD bill today, not the "bullshit" pro insurance

laced bill?

You say FDR JFK and LBJ wouldn't do this weak nonsense, but each only of those presidents didn't have the Congress we have today. The republicans stand together, while the Democrats don't. How can you force these Democrats to do the right thing?

I don't think you can, which means it has to be done at the state level

[LaPera]

8. The Dems have the majority...FDR, etc...would of put pressure up the ass to get the Dems in line....

FDR, LBJ, etc....would of burned their asses good and gone to the people, and wouldn't of cared if they were liked by the republicans, the media or anyone else, just get the job done that's needs to be done and the people will come around!

They would of been a fucking lot more clever about dealing with both the Dems and republicans in Congress....tactics and strategy, Obama had none!

Obama just walked away and let it get out of hand...Obama got exactly the bill he really wanted....it doesn't hurt (but helps) the insurance companies and there's some crumbs for the people....

This what he does...a complete turn around of what he campaigned for to get that huge progressive voting block and then just tosses us some crumbs each time, sometimes not even that!!

[misanthrope]

14. Watch the video...

...They talk about that very thing, the type of behind-the-scenes arm twisting that is required in such a case and how the POTUS has failed to do what is necessary, both in regards to this health care issue and financial reform.

Moyers says at one point that it's known in the Beltway that no one is afraid of Obama.

[clear eye]

18. That's really interesting.

I honestly had no idea. Maybe that's why he's so desperate to get something, anything passed--to show that he's a force to reckoned with, a real President.

I always thought that a President could make it easier or harder for a member of Congress to get re-elected in many ways. But if they think he won't use his powers against them (only against us in the progressive grassroots)....

[misanthrope]

20. Some early reports today...

...have it that Ben Nelson's change of heart came at the point of threats from Rahm Emanuel. Were that true, it would seem this White House certainly knows how to twist arms but is only willing to do so in order to aid American corporate interests.

Welcome to the fascist state, citizens!

[elleng]

4. Maybe/maybe not.

Passing will enable ongoing changes, if/when situation changes/members leave, etc. NOT PASSING won't enable anything except all the current agonies for people, AND reps to proclaim the failure.

[still_one]

6. Unless the bill that comes out doesn't really improve anyone's status except the insurance

companies

[elleng]

7. Yes, but I think it does, as it is,

(but not sure how; heard it yesterday.)

[rollingrock]

10. Don't worry, you're not alone

like Kuttner, the supporters of the bill all look like a deer caught in headlights struggling to explain how it benefits consumers in any clear way. he's supposed to be an expert on it, but he's as confused as you are.

[elleng]

11. Thanks so much, rock.

Try pre-existing conditions eliminated as reason to decline coverage.

and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x71246

[rollingrock]

13. That's not what you said

'Yes, but I think it does, as it is, (but not sure how; heard it yesterday.)'

remember?


'Try pre-existing conditions eliminated as reason to decline coverage.'

not sure what good that will do you when they find some excuse to deny your claim.

[elleng]

16. I'm not a nay-sayer, and I'm independent and open-minded.

MY claim won't be denied, as my coverage is via FEHBP. They will charge higher rates for pre-existings for others, with bill under discussion.

I remember what I had said here, and remember that I heard or read a conversation about why this bill is not a total disaster. May have been on Moyer.

[rollingrock]

17. They'll just make the deductible a lot higher

for you if you have a preexisting condition...and if you can't pay the big deductible or you're forced to mortgage your home or sell your car to cover it, well that's just like not having any insurance at all isn't it?

there might be some chance for them to make the bill better though at this late hour there doesn't seem to be much hope of that. if they wanted to make it better they would have done it months ago. Personally, I think the best thing to do is now is just trash it and go back to the drawing board. because the bill as it is just makes things worse IMO.

[misanthrope]

15. Coverage where you either can't afford the deductible or...

...can't afford the premium. Pick your poison.

[clear eye]

19. Mandated private insurance w/o the proper price & coverage controls (eg. allowing "caps")

sets a terrible precedent, as well as causing more suffering as soon as it goes into effect. What essential things, such as Social Security and Medicare, will we be asked to reduce or privatize to pay for exhorbitant prices the private insurers will charge the gov't which will be legally obliged to pay all but the amount they are allowed to charge us?

Though it's hard to imagine things getting worse, whenever I start to think that something terribly bad can't happen against all the evidence that it actually will, simply because it seems more awful than elected officials would dare to impose, I remember the last 9 years.

[rollingrock]

3. who cares if its a pile of turd?

its all about saving face for the Obama administration and the party while lining industry pockets.
who cares if the consumer is screwed over nine ways til sunday?...let them eat cake crumbs!

[TicketyBoo]

9. I watched Bill Moyers tonight.

I hate that he has announced his retirement. We need him now more than ever.

Now, to the subject of health care. I'm very disappointed in how things are going so far, but I am still hopeful that what finally comes out of this is something more progressive than what we're seeing now. I'm trying to reserve judgement and not be riding an emotional roller coaster of highs and lows with every dip and curve this legislation is maneuvering through.

It's not over 'til it's over, so let's save the weeping and wailing, okay? I'm convinced that whatever they put on the President's desk will get signed. Let's all just hope it doesn't end up being a steaming pile for him to poke his ink pen into. (I know that's what it looks like right now, but, as I said, it's not over yet.)

[kenny blankenship]

12. I am getting gun shy of Obama promoting reform if this is his idea of what constitutes reform

Why doesn't he just settle for caretaker War Preznit?