If the bill fails to pass the Repubs and FOX will declare victory. The "Obama's Waterloo" meme...

[Hekate]

... will be shouted from every RW microphone, picked up by the MSM and repeated as endlessly as "Dean's scream," and with the same amount of legitimacy (which is to say, none).

But you know what they say: Repeat the Big Lie often enough, and people will take it for the truth.

And what is the Big Lie in this instance? That President Obama is a miserable failure, Bush with melanin, that the Repubs took him down to utter defeat ("Waterloo"), and that "they won."

Is that what you "kill the bill" folks really want? I know you're pissed off at the manifest flaws in this bill THAT CONGRESS WROTE, but is handing the Right Wing a victory what you want?

Hekate

[NJmaverick]

1. Yeah that's going to be what happens (or a similar meme)

if it passes on the other hand, the Dems and Obama can talk about a historic bill and move on to other pressing matters (and quietly fix the flaws).

[movonne]

31. If this passes the way it is nobody will be happy except in ins. companies..

[EFerrari]

If it does pass, they will confect something else. So what?

That's what they do.

[AllentownJake]

15. The idiocy of the understanding of the Right Wing is stunning

If it passes as is, they hang it around his neck as a millstone, if it fails they celebrate they beat him.

Don't pass shitty legislation, it is better to lose a fight for something good, than to win a fight with something horrible. The loss will only follow you around for a short time, the win with something horrible will follow you around forever.

[EFerrari]

17. Unless one really understands the media landscape right now

it's not useful to call on progressives to stfu.

No matter what Obama does or doesn't do, it will have nada impact on what the right wing media does.

I wish we'd get that.

[AllentownJake]

20. Oh Barack Obama could invade Iran, ban abortion, throw every gay person in America in prison

and punch the emperor of Japan in the face and they'd call him a socialist.

[EFerrari]

21. And if he didn't, they'd say he was weak on national security.

lol

[AllentownJake]

24. For God's sake we are dealing with people

If they looked at the GOP platform from 1952, 1972, or 1976 they would think they were reading a DNC document.

It's time to just calling them insane and that their arguments have no merits. The fact that one democrat ever appears on Fox still baffles me.

[EFerrari]

26. We're been rammed so far to the right

there is no left left.

And still there are posters here lauding this abortion of a bill. "Historic" -- yeah, it's a "historic" giveaway to the insurance companies and Big Pharma. On the backs of low income women, no less.

Disgusting.

[DireStrike]

2. Passing the bill is also a victory for the right-wing.

This is a lose-lose.

[babylonsister]

5. Why is it a victory for the r/w, and if that were so, why are they fighting so

hard to obstruct and make it fail?

[DireStrike]

12. They fight everything that the "other team" does

Even if it arrives at the same end.

They might even have a legitimate reason. This might, for example, help the Democrats' rich backers to extract more money from the country faster than the Republicans' rich backers. But they don't need a good reason.

[babylonsister]

16. I disagree that it'd be a victory for them. This is historic, and will be

touted as such. They dread the thought of that.

[EFerrari]

27. Do you really understand how they got the votes?

Do you really get that abortion, already difficult to access in many places, was just made MORE difficult to access for low income women?

I wouldn't be so proud of making that kind of "history".

[babylonsister]

28. Yes, I 'get' it. Doesn't negate the fact that it will be considered

historic, and that the rethugs will be furious.

[EFerrari]

29. Considered "historic" by whom? Not by the women this will impact.

But I guess if you are invested in cable news headlines and in exploding freeper heads, it's all good.

If you are interested in the well being of women, not so good.

[babylonsister]

32. Don't insult me. Historic in the context of history? Hasn't ever been

accomplished before? That kind of historic.

[EFerrari]

34. "Historic in the context of history"? What does that even mean?

Hasn't been accomplished before? LBJ had Medicare through in the first six months of his presidency while the nation was still grieving.

This bill is "historic" for the insurance companies. :woohoo:

[EFerrari]

18. Because they have to take a position, any position. The noise

is worth more to them than the issue. It always is.

[donco6]

3. Beyond caring whether Obama wins or loses.

He's already shown me where I stand with him. Fuck him.

[Generator]

4. I know this is stunning

but how the bill affects people's lives is more important than Obama's political career. If you honestly believe this bill does more harm than good then supporting it for Obama's political career is let's face it-sick.

[treestar]

6. True

though the M$M is going to bash Obama anyway.

[leftstreet]

7. So what? Repubs can go antiWar, antiBailouts, you name it

The Obama Administration is giving them several midterm gifts to choose from

[AllentownJake]

8. They are going to scream it anyway

So how about you don't pass a shitty bill and take your losses without fucking the populace for Barack Obama's mistake.

[rucky]

9. + a fractured Democratic party

but that damage is already done (and entirely self-inflicted)

[Starry Messenger]

10. So what?

Is that the metric now? We care more about Dems looking bad in the media than the lives of working people? Guess what? The Right Wing won this one...both branches.

[dkf]

11. I really don't care anymore

If I find Obama worthy of defending I'll do it. Right now he is falling into the screw him category.

[gateley]

13. But at what point do we stop playing politics and just DO THE RIGHT THING? nt

[Tom Rinaldo]

14. What I want is real health care reform

Not a bill that enshrines the people who created the problem as the solution. Not a bill that establishes the concept that the government should have no direct role in providing health care insurance to its citizens. Not a bill that trades away women's rights. etc. etc.

Partisan politics is secondary to governing, spin is secondary to results. Not the other way around.

[lapfog_1]

19. They are going to say they "won" no matter what.

The bill in the present form is has no "government takeover" (no public option)... so, even if it passes, they will claim that "we made the Democrats cave" and "Obama couldn't ram through his socialist agenda" and a bunch of other crap.

So what.

They were going to do that no matter what anyway.

And, more important, is it worth it to pass a piss poor piece of legislation JUST so they can't dance a victory dance on FAUX SNOOZE? Really? Is that how we govern now? If so, we deserve to be crushed like bugs.

[Hidden Stillness]

22. The Best Thing That Could Happen to Obama is for This Nightmare to Be Avoided

As has been mentioned, they will claim that anyway. I think the best thing that could happen is for this crap to be killed--if you want a real rebellion, just force the kinds of things that are in the bill, while helping nobody's real problems, and funnel even more tax money to corporate control. The same way these people are not helping with foreclosures and sub-prime mortgage fraud, and not re-regulating anything, so they will do the same here. They had better hope this thing fails, so most people will never have to know what was done to them.

I blame the Obama Admin.--led by corporate lobbyist/WH health liason Tom Daschle--for this horrible bill, and for playing right into the hands of Republicans, not fighting, not answering charges they make, laughing and sneering at liberals, correcting nothing, hiring/keeping all the most Wall St. insider types throughout the whole Admin., on and on. What a complete fuckup of a golden opportunity, and all because they allowed corporate money to eventually take over the entire political system.

[GreenPartyVoter]

23. Being called names is hardly the worst thing that happens. I agree that the media sucks the

ultimate suckage, but that's not even on my radar concerning the failure of _good_ health care reform.

Editing to add that this is no way meant to be a slam on the OP. :hug:

[chimpymustgo]

25. +1.

[MadHound]

30. No, I first and foremost want this bill dead because in the long run it will do more harm than good

I don't care what the RW squawkers say, I don't care that the 'Pugs will claim some sort of victory. It really doesn't matter.

What matters is that this bill is going to do irreparable harm to our country, and I simply can't stand that. I am not willing to sell this country out to achieve some sort of pyrrhic, political victory, and neither should any thinking, caring, moral person.

[TiberiusGracchus]

33. Disaster for the Democratic Party or Disaster for the American poor: YOU CHOOSE

What remains of the Democratic resolve is now being squandered PLAYING CHICKEN with the welfare of our most vulnerable neighbors. Why is there even a fucking CHRISTMAS deadline anyway? Why is it so goddamned important that they pass it this week?!? I hate to fucking say it but I'm getting more and more suspicious of Reid's motives and his hurry to get this out before a totally arbitrary and meaningless date.

This bill as it stands will FORCE 30 million of the poorest Americans straight into the maw of a ravenous and predatory insurance industry. An industry that will NOT be compelled to lower its costs under this law.

This bill will not include a federal price control body to moderate the costs of healthcare coverage or even prescription drugs. No public option. No single-payer. No medicare expansion. NOTHING.

In fact, this bill plans on making draconian cuts to home health care and hospice care---cuts made at the suggestion of lobbyists from the nation's nursing homes, yet ANOTHER industry that has become legendary for abuse, neglect and exploitation.

As of today, the bill has COMPROMISED on funds for women's reproductive choice. It has been compromised on mitigating prescription drug costs by importing drugs and it has been compromised on holding insurance providers to task for their excesses.

At this point you should be more concerned about the welfare of your fellow Americans more than whether or not the Democrats come out smelling like roses. Because if they smell like SHIT, it's because they've been wallowing in it.

[Laelth]

35. They said the same thing about Clinton, and Clinton survived it just fine.

I am not worried about being called "weak" or "ineffective" or a failure. The right wing will say that no matter what.

I am much more worried about the American people. We should not foist bad legislation on the people just so we can say we "won."

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[varelse]

36. The Democrats can no longer win this one

If they fail to pass a Health Insurance Reform bill, then, as you say, the Republicans will declare victory.

If the Democrats succeed in passing a Health Insurance Reform bill that includes mandatory purchase of insurance from private insurance corporations, the Republicans will take that "mandatory insurance" to the bank in 2010 and 2012.

The Democrats will lose either way.