How many here will refuse all benefits from whatever HCR bill passes?

[eeyore]

Just curious.

[OKNancy]

1. Not me.

All I'm wondering about is if I'll qualify for a subsidy. Actually if it doesn't start until 2014, I'll be able to go on medicare, so it won't matter in my case.

[LWolf]

2. I already have private insurance

that I can't afford to use, so I really don't see what will be different for me.

[mdmc]

64. +1

:toast:ditto

[Hello_Kitty]

3. What kind of insurance do you have?

Just curious.

[tosh]

4. Not me.

I hope we'll be able to get all of our employees covered.

A few have coverage under spouse's plans. Some don't.

Small business, 12 employees. Can't afford to offer coverage now.

[polichick]

5. Can I refuse the premium hike I'm gonna get?? nt

[Deep13]

6. Why the hell would I do that? nt

[laughingliberal]

7. My husband will have Medicare by then if we can keep him alive that long

I will not buy insurance under this plan. If I'm in an income bracket that says I have to buy or pay a fine, I'll pay the fine.

[roamer65]

13. Don't pay the fine until you absolutely, necessarily have to...IMHO.

I think for many this will become a tax protest.

[laughingliberal]

22. Oh, it's a given I won't pay it til I have to

Could be moot cause there's no evidence I'll have income by then but it's a long way off. I predict some level of boycotting of the mandate. If it's high enough it may force change.

[barbtries]

8. i'm not sure i'll see any benefits

i'm insured through my employer.

[lunatica]

9. Is this a STFU post

Medicare is saving what will be left of my family. My mother is in Home Hospice because the doctors think she had less than six months to live because they've diagnosed her with pancreatic cancer. They are directly involved in making her remaining life as pleasant and easy as possible and they have assigned the family members a social worker. They are available 24 hours a day. They take care of her at home with a nurse that visits once a week and personal care workers 5 days a week with a hospital bed and any other medical equipment needed. All of it covered 100% by Medicare. She will never again go to a hospital or undergo any traumatic or invasive surgery or have to deal with pain. She is in her comfort zone at home and is not in pain or anguish.

Why shouldn't every American have that? Why do Americans in my position have to lose everything because some insurance CEO thinks that someone in my mother's condition shouldn't be covered so the CEO can get more money?

[msongs]

10. maybe obama will cut a backdoor secret deal that will benefit us/ nt

[pampango]

60. IDK, but it may be a "When are you enlisting to fight in Afghanistan?" post. n/t

[justabob]

11. I won't refuse anything outright, but

I suspect I will fall through the cracks with the current bill, it depends on the details of the final version. I am not quite poor enough for medicaid and without a 100% subsidy I can't afford it, period. Perhaps with small business help my employer will provide, but I doubt it. SNAFU is what I see in my future with regard to HCR. SO to answer your question, I won't actively refuse anything granted in the bill, however I do not believe it is really going to help me personally very much as it stands now. I do hope I am wrong, I haven't seen a real doctor in a decade.

[HughMoran]

12. My children need them

& I can't afford them while working at a small company.

[Fire1]

14. NOT ONE. n/t

[lapfog_1]

16. Yes, me.

And millions like me.

They don't claim that this will cover 100% of Americans, the current estimate is 94%. There are currently 30 million Americans with no health insurance of any kind (I'm one of those) or about 10%. This bill will cut that almost in half, to roughly 15 million Americans (I will still be one of them).

Yes, I will be ABLE to buy insurance (can't be denied because of pre-existing conditions, at least starting in 2014), but I still won't be able to AFFORD it (and I won't qualify for a subsidy).

Don't buy the hype that this now "covers everyone", because it doesn't.

And wait and see what the insurance company (still unregulated monopolies) do between now and 2014. They will "game the system" to make as much as they can.

[Fire1]

25. When they make money at least there will be more jobs and

they better make money if 94% of the population is going to get coverage. Secondly, the difference between 94 and 100 is 6%. If that is cut in half, that leaves 3% without coverage. That's damn good just coming out the gate.

[lapfog_1]

31. you are doing the math wrong.

It will be 6% without health insurance AFTER 2014. More between 2010 and 2014.

It's 30 million (really more like 40 million) now. Thats about 10% or maybe 11%.

However if you JUST LOOK AT ADULTS (children - even impoverished children, children with pre-existing conditions, and children of the unemployed - all have the ability to get on SCHIP - THANKS DEMOCRATS AND PRESIDENT OBAMA), the number is more like 15%.

So it goes down, from 15% of all adults to maybe 8% of all adults.

That's still 16,000,000 people with no health insurance.

Down from 30,000,000. Granted.

But the cost is too high. Way too high.

[Fire1]

35. When you say "cost" exactly to what are you referring?

And I agree, it would be more beneficial to more of the population if the bill was enforced much sooner. However, I'd be willing to wager that a great deal of modification will be taking place between now and 2014 to include that remaining 6% between 2010 and 2014.

[lapfog_1]

40. Three different meanings.

The social and political cost of all the compromises needed to get here.

The cost, in terms of power to corporations, of turning the entire system (minus Medicare, the VA, and Medicaid) over to corporations and handing them another 15,000,000 customers by mandate.

And, finally, the cost in dollars.

The base cost of a 21 to 30 years old person is likely to be a premium in the $7000 to $9,000 a year range. For older Americans, over 50, it could be as much as 3 to 4 times higher (per the bill) or $20,000. Average per individual is going to be over $15,000 per year (higher than the math average because the 50 to 65 age group is larger than the over 21 but under 30 age group.

There are maybe 200,000,000 adults in the US. Times $15,000 each and you have $3 Trillion dollars a year spent on health care, likely to be much higher by 2014 when most of the provisions kick in. That's an enormous sum. 15 to 20 percent of which is going to corporations that do absolutely nothing (anymore) other than act as a conduit of the money. $450 Billion a year in profits (at the group MLR rate of 15%). Read that again, we just agreed to give this small collection of corporations $450 BILLION a year for handling the money. This doesn't include their costs of claims processing. This is the amount that goes out in dividends, bonuses, and CEO salary. Not only that, but these companies have 0 incentive to contain the underlying costs of medical care. None, because we just guaranteed them a profit margin of at least 15 percent AND NO MORE than 15%. If I was a claims adjuster for Aetna right now, I'd be dusting off my resume and looking around for something else to do.


Edit to add: Is it any wonder why the stock value of these companies is UP an average of 10% over the last 6 weeks? The stock market KNOWS who has won this fight, and it wasn't the Democratic Party (or at least the one I joined).

[Fire1]

52. The social and political costs were inevitable regardless of

the kind of hcr legislation. So, that's irrelevant.

2)The fed gov't is committed to controlling and regulating both public and private health care costs regardless of what the corporations pull in. Furthermore, there are millions of uninsured and underinsured who couldn't give a rat's ass what corporations will be bringing in nor do they care about the stocks going up and of course they're going up! Did you think they wouldn't?? It's called 'capitalism.' People just want affordable insurance coverage.

3)As for monetary costs, that's pure speculation. You nor anyone else knows how the premiums are going to stack up, at this point. For those who can't afford 7k to 9k a year, there will be the exchange which is supposed to create competitive pricing. I suggest you wait for the final bill.

[laughingliberal]

42. If transferring more and more of the money of the working & middle class to wealthy corporations

would create jobs there would be no unemployment now. We've seen what they do with the money and job creation isn't it.

[Fire1]

51. There are millions of underinsured and those with no

insurance at all who couldn't care less about what the corporations make. There are components of this bill that are unprecedented. It represents a commitment by the federal gov't to make health insurance affordable to millions of americans and by making that commitment, they commit to controlling both public and private health insurance costs. Not to mention extending the life of the medicare trust fund and reducing the deficit.

With the "exchange" and mandates it goes without saying that there will an increased need for personnel and how much the companies pull in is irrelevant.

[girl gone mad]

57. You think when premiums go up that creates more jobs?

Sometimes I'm flabbergasted by the level of economic ignorance on DU.

Insurance companies operate fairly efficiently. They don't have to hire more people when they jack up rates.

But how many small businesses are going to have to fire people, cut benefits or just shut their doors because they can no longer afford the insurance hikes?

[Fire1]

61. I did not say ANYTHING about premiums creating jobs.

Please don't misinterpret what I wrote. Take that argument somewhere else. Furthermore, if businesses can't afford insurance for their employees, the employees can always get coverage through the exchange. Stop exaggerating and fabricating.

[Th1onein]

37. Me too.

eom

[treestar]

45. Not even Republicans

[lapfog_1]

15. After looking carefully at the final markup

I don't believe I will get any insurance or health care from this bill.

What I will get is an IRS imposed fine of some, as yet unknown, amount (estimates range from $100 to $750 a year).

I will NOT get any insurance from it. I will be making too much to qualify for subsidy and, because of the likely premium rate for people in my age group, I will not be able to buy it (my estimate is about 20 to 25 % of my gross income) in 2014 when the exchanges are set up. In addition, between now and then, I will be in the "high risk" pool of uninsured (Pre-existing condition) and I will not be able to afford the premiums offered to that group).

So, I will go without until (and if) I reach 65. I hope to make enough money in the next year or so to pay out of pocket for an exam and an MRI, approximate cost is $3500.

If the fine I will have to pay is $750, well, let's just say I won't be contributing any money to Democratic candidate again, ever.

BTW, I think a great many Americans who do not get insurance through an employer (and this number will grow with the passage of this bill as corporations unload health care plans) will find themselves in my shoes, not to mention that over the next 3 or 4 years, we will see rate increases for private insurance plans skyrocket before the provisions (as weak as they are) to contain costs become effective.

[tigereye]

43. what is so frustrating is that this bill was supposed to change the situation

you describe.

It's so aggravating. :banghead: Fining people is just insane, considering that people can't afford to pay as it is!

[Fire1]

53. I'd like to see a link to the 'final' mark up from a bill that hasn't

been conferenced or signed.

[Egnever]

56. Could you break it down a little more ?

You say you wont be able to afford it so will be fined. Could you not then apply for a hardship waiver providing documentation of why you couldn't afford it and avoid the fine?

[Bluebear]

17. I'm insured. I was hoping for a bill without anti-choice language that would help ALL the uninsured.

Any more questions?

[golddigger]

18. +1

:thumbsup:

[neverforget]

48. That was too hard so they came up with this insurance subsidy bill

that Wall Street loves.

[KG]

19. what benefits?

[eilen]

20. We don't have the right to refuse, what part of mandate is confusing? nt

[theophilus]

21. The Republican trolls and the other true morons, imo. n/t

[Obamanaut]

23. There are benefits? nt

[Bluenorthwest]

24. It is mandated purchase. Refusal ist vorbotten.

[salguine]

30. Thank you Aetna/Kaiser Permanente/Blue Cross. Watch me refuse.

[harmonicon]

26. I hope I can refuse the mandate.

If I don't have health insurance, I don't think there will be any benefits for me, so how could I refuse them?

Now, I do have a special case, because I live in a country with universal healthcare (the UK), and I hope to stay here for a few more years at least (far from a sure thing - getting visas is hard). If I am going to stay here, I would hope that I wouldn't be expected to put thousands of dollars into a US company that would provide nothing for me.

If I don't get a new visa here next year, and I have to move back to the US, I also hope I can refuse the mandate - or slip through the cracks - because there is no chance that I'll be able to afford it.

[lapfog_1]

32. If you file a tax return

you will pay somewhere between $100 and $750 (hard to know until we see the final bill out of conference, and it goes up every year too). That's a fine for not purchasing health care (mandate).

So, you will pay $750 and you will be (likely) excluded from all health care services except the ER. Don't have health insurance, the doctors and hospitals will likely NOT see you or treat you even if you are "self insured" and can pay.

Wanna bet?

[harmonicon]

54. I'm afraid you're right.

However, no one's going to get $750 from me that I don't have.... especially if I don't have $1.

[cliffordu]

27. Well....

:rofl:

Excellent question!!

[Kablooie]

28. If it passes, you'd be stupid to refuse benefits you need, even if you hate the overall bill.

[lapfog_1]

33. It's not that I refuse... it's that I can't afford.

Do the math for yourself (if you have employer paid health insurance, pretend that you don't), look up on your insurance companies website and find the cost of a comparable plan to what you have... read the bill, look up the federal poverty level, and see if you will get a subsidy... and then come back and tell me if you can afford it).

[Kablooie]

49. If it costs more, I agree, you should be able to refuse. I wouldn't consider that a benefit.

[salguine]

29. I won't get any benefits. I can't afford insurance now, and if I were to be forced to

buy shit insurance like they're pushing, the deductibles and co-pays will be so goddamned high that I couldn't afford those either. It's like not having insurance at all.

Ask me if I plan to pay the fine. Fuck, no. If I go to jail, I can at least get a checkup for free.

[Forkboy]

34. People with broken legs tend to accept crutches.

Even if the people handing the crutches to them are the ones who broke their legs in the first place.

[Dr Fate]

63. +1 n/t

n/t

[yodoobo]

36. The same number that refuse SS benefits

Everybody wants the benefits, but nobody wants to contribute their fair share.

[Th1onein]

39. I contribute to social security.

That's a government run system. I will NOT be forced to buy from a for-profit insurance company. Fuck NO.

[yodoobo]

41. If you don't contribute, you are effectively denying others care

If everyone doesn't participate, then it breaks and nobody gets care. Including you.

The bill isn't great, but its a 1000% improvement on what we have now.

Instead of grousing, we owe Obama and congress a HUGE thank you for making it possible for everyone to get the health care they need.

Instead, people are whining they might actually have to pay a few dollars.

"WHAT ABOUT ME?" isn't a liberal value.

[laughingliberal]

46. It needs to break. When they decide to pass something that actually provides people with health care

instead of worthless junk policies people will be unable to use, I'll support it. Transferring our money to criminal corporations who will continue to abuse their customers is not a liberal value, either.

What about me? I don't have coverage now, am sick, would qualify for help under this program but the miniscule amount of care I might actually get under this bill is not worth helping to feed the beast.

[Th1onein]

50. It's not "what about me?"

It's being forced to give my money to for profit insurance companies that are going to do nothing but find ways around covering people's healthcare needs anyway. This bill is a giveaway to those mobsters and I'm NOT paying them.

[Waiting For Everyman]

59. Explain how someone who hasn't had any medical services for decades

is costing you or anyone else money, or denying you or anyone else care? I'd really like to hear that.

I'm one of those people. Tell me how I have been "ruining it for everyone" all these years... while I used zero services.

That is the most absurd nonsense I ever heard. It's the people who have been receiving services who have run the cost up so high that others can't afford any. My assertion is just as valid as yours.

What you're really insisting on, is that people who don't get any medical treatment, pay for yours. So tell me this... what if I didn't exist at all? What if all of those who aren't in the system never existed at all? What if they were never born, never here?

Btw, I'm not "young and healthy", I'm pushing 60.

[LostInAnomie]

47. That's been my thinking for awhile now.

Can you imagine they screaming fits people would have had if DU would have been around when Social Security was being debated? It would have been scary.

[girl gone mad]

58. Most DUers wanted a single payer system.

Why would we have been opposed to SS?

Single payer is akin to SS.

This bill is more like being forced to buy Microsoft and Haliburton stock with your SS deductions. Pretty sure DUers would be against that, too.

[spanone]

38. bwahahahahaaa

[treestar]

44. I'm not sure

I have my own coverage as self employed so I might count as already insured.

[EFerrari]

55. What benefits?

[Dr Fate]

62. I already have private insurance with no option for public competition. n/t

n/t