Need help converting friend away from Ron Paul-ism

[cowcommander]

I have a good friend who's quite politically aware, despises Bush and the war, and hates Republicans just as much as I do. But there's a catch...he's a Ron Paul fanboy and is absolutely convinced that this guy is the answer for everything. I feel that he's only a few steps away though to being more progressive, so what can I use to convince him? Any good info, links, etc. that I can use to change his opinion?

[PeaceNikki]

1. He's right on a couple of issues, but SO VERY wrong on so VERY many important issues.

Immigration
Gay Rights
Church-State Separation
International Relations
Worker rights
Campaign finance reform
Universal health care
abortion law
against public funding of schools, head start, college assistance, medicare, medicaid
against social security
for unfettered gun control
and Privatizing everything

Here's a good link: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/6/5/193414/2787

[upstandingcitizens]

2. Try

electro shock :)

[Tesha]

3. It can't be done. Big-L Libertarians are clinically insane. (NT)

[Ruby the Liberal]

4. Libertarians want NO regulation on businesses

Relate to him that his ideals are good, but reality is that Libertarianism doesn't take into account human greed nature and the love of money.

Talk with him about what the banks did and what insurance is doing. Things like credit card interest going to 30% while banks are borrowing from the Fed for 0%.

Supposedly, in Libertarian theology, if we removed ALL regulations, the market would self-correct. Look at what a "good" job it is doing policing itself with the little regulations that are in place.

If he isn't economy minded, this may not work, but the absence of the reality of the greed factor is my biggest issue with Libertarian theology. It is the death knell to their utiopian ideals.

[truedelphi]

6. But do we even have regulations right now?

Our FDA and our EPA and other agencies are so heavily influenced by Big Corporate Interests that the agencies are no longer dependable as far as our real interests.

Should we be paying taxes to run agencies where the revolving door between industry and the gvoernment is totally visible such that we cannot trust these agencies?

Ron Paul would not be having such an effect on people if the Corporate - government handshake was not so complete.

[Ruby the Liberal]

15. Barely. Look at the SEC for example

One would have thought in a post-Enron world, the regs would have stiffened. Sarbanes-Oxley was a start, but we need more than financial transparency and system documentation as people will just keep thinking up new ways of scamming the system.

I am holding out hope for Elizabeth Warren's Consumer Agency, but we will have to see if it has any teeth.

[Loudmxr]

5. Respect him. Really. He is your friend.

There is a point where argument becomes futile when it confronts belief. You cannot change belief it is immune to rational thought. As it should be.

Whenever someone says to me "I believe that..." I back off and say "I respect your belief system. And I support it." That takes them aback. "Yes, you can believe that the creator of all heaven and earth is that sprinkler head out there and I support your right to believe that. I will not argue your beliefs."

However if you "think" something then you had better have some facts. If we disagree, we disagree and we have had a constructive argument. (NO WE DIDN'T1 YES WE DID!) We part as two respectful intellects who disagree.

Respect. Friendship. Relationship. Your future together must last longer than Ron Paul's life. That is the important thing to remember. :toast:

[leftstreet]

7. +1

How refreshing!

:applause:

[Odin2005]

8. +1

[janx]

12. It's a travesty that many people don't understand the difference,

isn't it?

[Canuckistanian]

17. +!

That's true. Ron Pauls come and go.

Friends last a lifetime, with proper care and nurturing.

[YOY]

9. Oh the Libertarians...the Anarchists of the right wing...

Same "logical" idiology...that would never work in reality.

He needs to be proven to that the big "L" doesn't work. Perhaps a trip to Somalia. It's Libertarian paradise.

[madokie]

10. good luck on that

feed him factual info and hope some of it sticks otherwise give up on that endeavor

[WeDidIt]

11. Is your friend a white supremacist?

Paul is very very cozy with the white supremacists.

[MisterP]

13. probably the hardest part of libertarianism to overcome is MYOB!

it's harsh, reflexive, and instinctively appeals to everybody (like how toddlers' first tantrums in stores are about "mine!"): nobody likes being told what to do

since Paulistas are populists (in the Buzz Windrip fashion), many of their better policies overlap with Kucinich's; feed 'em Kooch information and ask why they'd rather be with Paul than the American left

as libertarians, Paulistas are against the Fed because it's "monopolistic" and because they believe every crank theory that Ezra Pound wrote on his straitjacket; they want a world of small shopkeepers and home producers, assuming that competition and the Holy Market will let people "take their business elsewhere" after they discover that they buried two children because of tainted toys and guillotine cribs; remind them that Chinese milk and pet food isn't toxic because their producers are "too big," but because they're insufficiently regulated. And if we're going to have a "minimalist," "night-watchman state," why can't we have gub'mint programs that protect those who can't buy mercs or to keep grandmothers from starving to death in tenements?

[roamer65]

14. I'm reading one of their bibles, "The Creature from Jekyll Island".

The author is definitely right-wing Libertarian but has REALLY done his research on the history of the Federal Reserve, especially surrounding the years leading up to the Great Crash of 1929.

I enjoy the history and explanations of Fed operations in the book, but I skip the authors conclusions as they are pretty much Libertarian hog snot. Completely "free" markets just make speculative bubbles even worse. Deregulation has pretty much ended in failure in any capitalist economy.

[bigwillq]

16. Let him figure it out on his own.

If he likes the guy, no biggie. Let him. He will figure out the truth on his own.

[G_j]

18. does he hate immigrants?

Ron Paul sure seems to.

[blindpig]

19. Pull his head out of his ass. n/t

[krabigirl]

20. Hmm, don't bother. You can't change him.

[LWolf]

21. Change his opinion to favor what, or whom? nt

[backscatter712]

22. Bring up Ron Paul's racism

For example...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/15/124912/740

http://pennsylvaniaprogressive.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/06/ron_paul_white_.html