And The Progressives Are Doing PRECISELY What The Republicans WANT THEM TO DO!

[WeDidIt]

Yep, Progressive activists are now declaring failure and walking away, just like the Republicans planned all along.

If Progressives are truly the activists they claim, they will target vulnerable Republicans for GE defeat and will STRATEGICALLY target Conservadems in districts and states that can produce far more Progressive Democrats at the federal level.

But for my part, I'm figuring the Republicans read the Progressives pretty well. Wimps declare failure and walk away. The strong pick up and expand teir party's majorities when they're kicked down.

Hell, if the Republicans are completely wrong about Progressives, they should be able to get enough Progressive Senators in place to re-address HCR in 2011 to expand upon the base that is about to be put in place.

But like I said, I think the Republicans have read Progressives right. I think the Progressives are going to prove my calculation correct, too.

Jane Hamsher already has. DU looks to be going down the same road.

[Blasphemer]

1. The GOP has it's own splintering problems. I'd be thrilled if there were 4 parties on the ballot nt

[tblue]

4. Me, too!

I'd gladly vote for the most liberal party.

[Vinnie From Indy]

15. It would be the best thing to happen in America

More parties might just actually help get true representation for the people. Then again, the buying power of corporations is quite vast.

[babylonsister]

2. You give the rethugs way too much credit. They haven't planned for

a damned thing and haven't a clue about most. But yes, they will use anything at their disposal to widen the rift in the Dem party if we give them the ammo.

[niceypoo]

3. Those evil wimpy progressives!!

Wow, stick with checkers or something simple

[msongs]

5. oh yes damn those progressives to hell for being nothing but repub tools. yeah, right nt

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. All right. Let's talk about defeating conservadems. They have incumbency and

money on their side. How do we fight that? We can't get more money than they have because they are bankrolled by corporations. If we put up a corporate candidate ourselves then all we've done is sold out in order to "win", meaning we haven't won anything because they will be beholden to their financial backers instead of us.

So what's the cure? I say publicly financed elections, but how do we get something like that through a Congress of those very same corporate candidates?

Quick edit to clarify that I am talking about primarying out conservadems, not voting against them in the GE.

[gardenista]

12. As much as I've always respected you, GPV

I can't participate in a discussion about defeating dems on this board. It doesn't feel right.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. Well, I am talking about replacing one dem with another more progressive one in the primaries. I am

sorry if I wasn't clear on that before. :)

[gardenista]

28. Got it, sweetie!

I wuz being dense, meself!

:hug:

[GreenPartyVoter]

30. LOL Well, like I said I wasn't really clear about it in my reply. *hug*

[Hannah Bell]

18. lieberman's a dem?

[gardenista]

29. not anymore, good riddance! pthuth

that's spitting...

No, I got it cleared up now! GPV is talking about getting progressive dems in during primaries. I can get behind that!

[WeDidIt]

13. The same things were said about Lieberman in 2005

and few states allow sore loser runs.

PA is one. We can get rid of Specter and get a more progressive Dem.

Bayh is another who's vulnerable.

Beyond that, there is Ohio and Florida, both completely open to Progressive Democrats taking over.

Missouri could flip D, too, and even a conservadem there is better than an R because if we expand the majority to 62 or 63, there's breathing room on filibusters.

It's entirely doable.

But FDL. DK, and DU just want to piss, moan, pick up their ball and walk away.

Yeah, I'm fucking pissed off the PO went down in flames, but a Phoenix can always rise from the flames and the Progressive Activists can give life to that phoenix.

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. I hope so. I think the problem is that getting pissed and walking away is

the natural reaction to feeling hurt or betrayed. I think berating them for that feeling does nothing to win them back for the next round of fights. Rather like how my husband tries to "help" me when he admonishes me not to eat something. It's just adding insult to injury. :(

[ldf]

39. so what happens the next election

when the same damn thing happens?

how many elections do we sit through before the basic planks of the democratic party come back into focus?

with the numbers we have now, you'd think something would happen. but the republicans have been in total control of the dialog by lying, obstructing, threatening filibuster, you name it.

ONLY to be helped along by our own democrats.

don't expect the progressives in the democratic party to be willing to take a PERMANENT position UNDER the bus. it ain't gonna happen.

so the plan is now to respectfully stay under the bus, THIS time, and you may consider our concerns next election.

deja vu times 10...

sorry. we have every right to be upset. get used to it. and you may want to reconsider who the "enemy" is here, those willing to stand up for core principals of the party, or those who will easily sell out, every single time.

i'm just saying....


:grr:

[GreenPartyVoter]

42. Believe me, I hear all that. Having a Dem president and Congress and

not getting a swath of progressive things done has been very disheartening. Granted my vote was more Anti-Palin than anything else, but I did kinda hold a secret hope that somehow things would be, well, more hopeful.

[gardenista]

7. Great post. But I actually think that many of the walk-out threats

are from folks who never were in the room in the first place.

And it's sad that the Repubs can exploit that, but there you are. We have always had a hard time getting everyone together without splintering one-issue folks going off in another direction. But I believe that once the dust settles, we'll still have the core together.

This is the first of a four year administration, which I hope will be followed by another four years.

This bill, as imperfect as it is, represents a major milestone.

[TheMadMonk]

37. Actaully it's not 'one issue folks'. Or if it is, it's n times 'one issue'...

...screwed over and thrown under the bus.

Meaningfull healthcare reform. Check.
Middle East messes x3(plus). Check.
Finance industry reform. Check.
Resource industry regulation. Check. (with small (and very occasional) positive qualifications)
Retail industry regulation. Check.
Manufacturing industries. Check.
Unions. Check.
Fair wages. Check.
Free trade. Check.
War crime prosecution. Check.
Womens reproductive health. Check.
Utility monopolies. Check.
Infrastructure maintenance and renewal. Check.
Civil rights for the differently gendered. Check. (with occasional islands of sanity, quickly inundated by floods of bigotry.)

And twenty-'leven more issues besides.

All 'one issue' matters. All allowed to come to pass because people like yourself are willing to settle for "better than nothing". And each and every one balllessly impotent in the face of those who know full well that they won't be made to comply even with the watered down minimums you let them foist off on the people.

Yes this is one issue, but it is one issue amongst a hundred, and by framing it (or allowing it to be framed) in isolation as a single issue matter, you are doing half the enemy's work for him.

[gardenista]

41. are you willing to consider your reps a reflection of the population at large?

and just who is the enemy here?

and "better than nothing" on healthcare- damn right. Try being a small business owner on COBRA with a pre-existing condition and an unemployed spouse. Damn right I'm interested in better than nothing, because nothing is what I got over the eight years that preceded Obama.

[TheMadMonk]

48. Well not my reps. I'm an Aussie.

But no they don't reflect the population at large. They simply have the superficial ability to be appealing to certain sub-sets of the population at large.

And your personal problems makes this 'single issue' the one that matters to you the most right now, and you willing to accept anything at all which is an improvement on your current situation. However, that doesn't change the simple fact that in order to get this minimal concession, those giving it, will gain considerably more than they lose. And yet, I'll lay London to a housebrick they will still do their damndest to give you the shaft.

[Egnever]

52. If your an aussie you got a lot of balls

lecturing people here on what we should be voting on or where we should lay our priorities. Get your own house in order then come lecture US.

[TheMadMonk]

53. Who's lecturing? I'm simply making observations in line with...

...the ideas expressed in the OP.

As for getting our house in order, our single biggest problem, is that our system is being remade to be 'friendly' to US style corporate interests. Fixing you, goes along way towards fixing us.

[Bolo Boffin]

8. "just like the Republicans planned all along."

I no longer believe in 11-dimensional chess for either party.

[begin_within]

9. I feel like the Democrats won't fight for what I believe in,

so I'm getting less and less concerned whether the Democrats or Republicans are in power. Yes, the Democrats are marginally better on some issues, but not enough to make me enthusiastic about supporting them. Powerful moneyed interests always win out, no matter which party is in power. If the Democrats did stand up and fight for what they say they believe in during their campaigns, then I would feel differently and be more inclined to support them. I feel like Dennis Kucinich is about the only "real" Democrat left in Congress and the only one who deserves my support for re-election.

[AllentownJake]

10. I'm not going to be bullied into supporting something

that principally goes against most of my ideological beliefs because Republicans also hate it. Republicans would hate a lot of things I also would hate if someone did it so stop chattering about that nonsense.

Just because someone I disagree with normally doesn't like something, doesn't make the thing they dislike fucking awesome.

[niceypoo]

17. The premise of the OP is intellectually dishonest

Republicans want to block it because they want Obama to fail, they don't care what is in the bill. Many Democrats don't like the bill because it is a bad bill. They oppose the bill for opposite reasons.

[AllentownJake]

20. Yes and this is what political parties have wrought on America

Here is something against most of your memberships wishes but we want it because it is good for us politically in the short term so get in fucking line, and your political opponents are writing a piece of legislation, instead of sitting at the table with them and seeing if there is consensus scream and yell because it is good politically for you.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WeDidIt]

22. I was pissed off, and I still am

but I'm directing that energy to accepting what we will get and working towards making it better.

Most of the bill doesn't take effect for four years.

that means we've got two federal elections cycles to make it better.

[niceypoo]

43. Problem is

...the Democrats are so timid and submissive that I don't really expect them to come back and fix anything, at least not in the Reid era. They should have rammed this thing through like the Republicans did with Medicare plan D and been done with it.

[AllentownJake]

23. To be fair

I love Howard Dean, but his rhetoric goes from angry to moderately pissed to annoyed depending on the day, I'm guess it is assertions he is getting from the White House or Senatorial Democrats. If I were him, I'd get them in writing.

So I'm not going to cast any negative motives on the OP because he might be reading things he agrees with and is torn. As I'd appreciate the fucking cheerleaders not put negative motives on my fucking feelings.

[Wardoc]

35. You are damn right, Jake. I'm with you on that! (nt)

[wordpix]

11. we need to regroup and not walk away at this point - we still have a way to go

before the final bill. The House bill is better, Call your senators and congressmen to get a better final bill.

And tell Obama to lead this charge, how 'bout?

[laughingliberal]

14. What the Republicans planned all along was to defeat meaningful health care reform

They were joined in this attempt by conservatives within the Democratic party. They succeeded. Whether this bill will be revisited after the midterms remains to be seen. My suspicion, based on behavior seen during the entire debate, is that anyone attempting to improve the bill in favor of the average American to the detriment of the insurance lobby will be fought vigorously by the White House and the Blue Cross Dogs.

Politically involved progressives will, likely, do what they can to target the obstructionists in the House and the Senate in 2010. It is a daunting task which will require fighting a White House which has a preference for conservative Democrats and little support from the party organizations. Won't say it can't be done but it's a real long shot.

[Fire1]

24. They meant to defeat ANY KIND of reform. Foiled again. n/t

[laughingliberal]

26. Lol! We showed them!

We'll get this passed no matter how horrible we have to make it to get it through. So, there!

[deutsey]

32. Unfortunately, the phrase "pyrrhic victory" seems to have lost its meaning

to some Democrats.

[laughingliberal]

40. +1 nt

[Fire1]

25. Agree and it's so obvious. n/t

[amborin]

27. you've got it exactly backwards! Big capital won with the HCR bill!

[HipChick]

31. Wimpy Progressives declare failure and walk away...

sums it up...and then will sit on blogs crying about President Palin

[Terry_M]

33. Or alternately

Yep, Progressive activists are now declaring failure and walking away, just like the <Democrats> planned all along??? Unless they're a bunch of blind idiots, they knew this was coming. Which is it?
I am completely confused myself, I can't figure out if they WANTED this or just didn't give a crap one way or the other. All they had to do was force the Republicans to filibuster and force them to stand around filibustering for a month or 2... The republicans and Joe would have started cracking from too much pressure eventually...

[Wardoc]

34. Not going to reward bad votes and bad legislation with good work. I will not be an enabler. The...

party works for the people, not the other way around. If they do not do their part, we are not going to simply forgive and forget. And for my part, I'm certainly not going to reward them. I reserve unconditional love and support only for my family.

No votes and no money for 2010 from me. Maybe when they learn they can not fuck us over and take us for granted will they start to govern ethically. By the way, the mockery and insults are not going to beat us down.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zenlitened]

38. EPIC FLAIL

[bvar22]

44. No. You've got it wromg.

The Democrats are doing exactly what their Corporate Masters are telling them to do:

Give the Health Insurance Cartel a Trillion Dollars,
just like Wall Street.
After all, The Health Insurance Cartel is Wall Street's Little Brother,
and we wouldn't want them to feel left out.

Now THAT is a "Uniquely American Solution".

Give the people that CAUSED the problem a Trillion Dollars.

Nice.
The Republicans could have NEVER gotten away with that.

[WT Fuheck]

45. And the apologists are doing EXACTLY what the insurance companies WANT THEM TO DO!

[Toasterlad]

46. Oh, Those Crafty Republicans! Making Obama Lay Down on Health Care!!

Making the Democratic congress cave on every single point! God only knows how they manage to control every Democrat in Congress and force them to do things against their will! If only we could find and destroy the Republican mind-control beam, our valiant Democratic leaders could actually sponsor and pass the legislation that they really, really WANT to, deep down in their noble hearts.

Blast you, Republicans!

[dflprincess]

47. Right - let us rise above principle and unite the party

:sarcasm:

[ClassWarrior]

49. Ahhh, the narrative in which the Rape-Publicans are all-powerful and we're weak and ineffectual...

Heard it before. It's fiction. Pulp fiction. Bordering on propaganda.

NGU.

[depakid]

50. Yep- blame progressive for the party's OWN FAILURE to stand up the the corporate right

The administration and Democratic "leadership" had the chance to do this right through reconciliation- but instead- corrupt, cowardly and complicit as they are, they chose to stand with and associate themselves with the ever popular insurance industry.

And expect everyone to just bend over and take it- while they pass along excuses as to why they "couldn't get it done" without gutting the bill of nearly every meaningful reform

Brilliant- behave like and pander to Republicans- then blame progressives for the inevitable losses, when people realize that they've been had.

Keep it up, and they'll deserve what they're going to get in 2010- just as they've gotten every single time that they've played this game over the past 18 years.

[ClassWarrior]

51. The Rape-Publicans want us to stand up for our value of compassion?

Whooda thunk??

NGU.