Swallow this bill, we'll improve it later is BULLSHIT!

[nosmokes]

That is implicit acknowledgment this bill is a POS. Since we are all aware it needs improvement why are passing and attempting to celebrate this abortion? If it needs improvement then let's improve it now. you don't build a house so that it's falling down and then go back and try and fix it. that's simply tossing good money and effort after bad.

I say scrap the Health Insurance Bail-Out and Guaranteed Profit and Customer Act

[Poll_Blind]

1. They said the same thing...absolutely the SAME thing abou the Patriot Act. n/t

PB

[ixion]

5. exactly... and now almost ten years later

it still fouls the air. :grr:

[treestar]

20. Huh? Who wanted to "improve on" the Patriot Act?

[glitch]

25. Yeah, we GET that you are late to the party

but you really owe it to yourself to do your own catch up.

[debbierlus]

36. Do no HARM - better the status quo then this atrocity - a recipe for enslavement

[bvar22]

37. The Patriot Act....

Hell, they said the same thing about NAFTA.

[Poll_Blind]

52. Great point! They did, indeed... n/t

PB

[ChiciB1]

83. AND NAFTA!! We Are Such Stupid IDIOTS!! We're Going To Let Them Roll Us

again, and that's just how it will be! Even here at DU, the Rah, Rahs, and the Lefties can't seem to get it together, so... who really gives a SHIT????

NOTHING WE DO WILL MAKE A DAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE!! That's SAD, but it's something I've FINALLY come to GRIPS WITH! I know I got screwed, but hey... I KNOW I TRIED, and I LOST AGAIN!

There will be no time in MY FUTURE that I will go to BAT for what I believe in, because what I believe doesn't have enough M.O.N.E.Y to make a rat's ass of difference!

I'm cooked! What would like B-B-Que, Lemon-Pepper, or Mesquite??? Or maybe I can be a PRETZEL, like it with salt or not, mustard, or something else??? Put your order in... and GOOD LUCK with getting what you want! GO GET IT YOURSELF.. I AIN'T gonna help you, YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN!!

Oh, and BTW... GET SCREWED while you're at it, at least SEX has it's "moments"!

[Yuugal]

2. Don't worry, we will refine Nafta later......

blah........................

[kenny blankenship]

16. And they did. They passed the last round of GATT

which caused jobs that were going to Mexico to go to China instead, since Mexico is a high wage country compared with China. That refined NAFTA, although maybe not in a way that favors ordinary North Americans.

[Yuugal]

17. I cant wait for my pacific rimjob...... nt

[whatchamacallit]

19. LOL! (n/t)

[nosmokes]

65. Har!

[rhett o rick]

71. Hey, that's terrible on lots of levels.

But kinda funny.

[ixion]

3. yep, you said it

it is a whopping load of BS.

[jonnyblitz]

4. or course it is bullshit. any idiot with half a brain knows that.

the only change that i could imagine occuring is if they wanted to make it EVEN worse than it for us and better for the insurance industry.

[David Zephyr]

6. Tom Harkin sheepishly told Rachel Maddow "the Senate has too much on its plate in 2010" to do more.

Harkin's interview with Maddow showed the Senate has not the stomach or will to touch healthcare in 2010.

As Feingold said, this is the bill Obama wanted from the beginning.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. Yep. "we'll improve it later" carries the same weight as "no bill without a public option". k&r

[peace frog]

58. All lies

Lies we believed, but no more.

[AllentownJake]

8. You'd think after 30 years of them saying such nonsense you'd figure it out

Oh, and I love when people bring up Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security. They have to go back in time 40 years to a time we actually had representatives not paid actors.

[PufPuf23]

10. Social security is one of the next targets. nt

[AllentownJake]

11. Well they couldn't privatize it in 2005

So they are just going to end it.

Better not look for the Franklin Roosevelt portrait in the White House, the chief of staff used it as a restroom.

[kenny blankenship]

27. Republicans couldn't.

Republicans couldn't force everyone to tithe to insurance companies either. They'd be ripped to shreds for even suggesting it.

[whathehell]

54. I'm no pollyanna, but I don't think social security will ever be ended

at least not under a democratic administration.

Social Security = Third Rail of Politics...Touch it and you die.

[JFN1]

66. True - when there were actual elections

Now all we have are corporate sponsored/owned celebrities telling the masses what polling says the masses want to hear. Then the masses (i.e., us) all vote on the corporate owned black box electronic voting machines (i.e., pull the lever), and DING DING DING DING DING! We get the next celebrity office holder who will then proceed to do as ordered by the true owners of our country.

It is not really our country anymore, is it...

[rhett o rick]

72. Ronnie Raygun touched it, Hard, and he is an American hero. nt

[whathehell]

75. He didn't end it. And if he did, he'd be an American Villain.

Which I think he might be, anyway.

[rhett o rick]

79. Noone is stupid enough to "end it". They will just fix it until it kills itself. And Ronnie started

the process.

[whathehell]

90. "Noone"?

If no one is stupid enough to "end it"..Tell it to AllentownJake, he's the one who first suggested it.

[rhett o rick]

92. I agree with mr jake. You are being picky about words. nt

[whathehell]

93. You agree with Mr. Jake, but disagree with me?....Funny, because we both said the same thing

"Well they couldn't privatize it in 2005
So they are just going to end it".

And if you'd rather people not be "picky" with words, you might consider being less snarky with them, especially since your aim is bad.

[glitch]

28. The bubble machine doesn't have a lot of options left now that confidence has been destroyed in the

"Free Market". Social Security and Public Education remain the obvious targets, especially now that Medicare has been breached.

[PufPuf23]

34. Look at Arne Duncan and Charter Schools

to undermine public education.

We are farther right than Nixon now.

Watch Africa and Latin America if you are anti-war.

[fascisthunter]

59. we should start asking DUers how they feel about Social Security

before Obama tells them what he thinks.

[cherokeeprogressive]

9. It's like having the doctor tell you he's going to give you a lobotomy, BUT

you shouldn't worry, because after we cut out a lobe of your brain, we're going to make it grow back, bigger and smarter.

[rhett o rick]

73. I see you love terrible analogies as much as me. It's like the doctor telling you he is going to

give you a heart by-pass and use garden hose. But he will upgrade later.

[cherokeeprogressive]

77. LOL I love that one! n/t

[rhett o rick]

78. Mite as well LOL, cant cry anymore. NGU. nt

[phasma ex machina]

12. Your eyelids are getting heavy. After I count to 3 you will forget all about any improvement.

[Wardoc]

13. If it didn't bother me to do the cliche "110%" I'd give you more than a 100% agreement :)

[kenny blankenship]

14. Give me a blank check for this bridge, and next month I'll send you the deed of title

by courier.

[Raine]

15. If a good bill can't be passed now when we have the majority

how can a POS be improved on when our side becomes the minority (which is likely to happen next year)?? That is total bull shit to try and shut us up!!! :grr:

[FormerDittoHead]

18. But no point in having the Public Option because it's so crippled. We can't go back and fix it...

So let me see how the argument goes:

What was the point in having the public option anyway? It was so crippled, it wasn't worth anything. Completely killing it was no great loss. It's not like we can come back and fix it later...

but....

We shouldn't kill the bill and mandates and loopholes! We can fix THIS bill and make it better LATER...!

Am I the only one that sees the contradiction here?

[treestar]

21. Look at history, many programs have been improved on since they began

This gets enough regulation in the door and gets everyone onto a system.

We have the votes now to get this.

[AllentownJake]

30. Name one after Ronald Reagan nt.

[Qutzupalotl]

47. Why?

He already has plenty of things named after him. :)

[PufPuf23]

38. Institutionalizing fascism is not progress.

You are naive or something else; the health care proposals passed are nuanced eugenics.

[Better Believe It]

63. And when do you expect enough votes will be had to pass a strong public option?

[Raineyb]

70. You mean like Medicare?

Oh wait... Never mind.

[valerief]

22. I figure they'll just make it even worse later. nt

[blues90]

23. Fix it later my ass !!!!!!!!!!!

This is like leaving a pool of standing water and expecting the mosquitoes not to breed and suck the life blood right out of it.

[Odin2005]

24. K&R

[Motown_Johnny]

26. Sorry, but I disagree

Tweety said it best tonight in the last couple minutes of his show.


He pointed out that without the imperfect legislation of 1957, the Civil Rights legislation of the 60s might never have been possible.


We need something to build on, I know it sucks but it is true.


This is better policy than the status quo, it is also better politically than failing to pass anything.

[truedelphi]

39. What Tweety did not mention is that during LBJ's term there were only 700

Lobbyists in Washington DC.

Right now there are 7,000.

That is why we cannot rely on any notion that they will "fix" this later.

[ArcticFox]

61. And more lobbyists after this passes

With all those additional (taxpayer-funded) customers, the industry will be able to hire thousands more lobbyists.

[skepticscott]

82. What he also did not mention

is that none of the people opposed to civil rights legislation in the 60's had a massive financial interest in blocking it. The forces arrayed against real health care reform (i.e. taking private insurance out of the game) DO, and they still will in 5 years or 10 years or 20 years.

[truedelphi]

91. That is why I think it is absurd to believe that

Any of the massive problems with this bill will be fixed at all.

[Tim01]

29. And don't be asking for more stuff, you got your health care reform.nt

[HuckleB]

31. It's called let's not repeat a history that has led us nowhere.

Pay attention to more than your anger.

[NorthCarolina]

32. The issue with swallowing this bitter pill, as suggested by Dr. Dean, is that

it cements Private Insurance as the sole vehicle for Health Care in America forever more.

[Laelth]

33. That's a very big problem.

In addition, this bill prevents state governments from trying to fix our health care delivery system. There are multiple, multiple reasons to oppose this bill, not the least of which is the damage it will do to the Democratic Party. People will loathe the mandate.

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[WT Fuheck]

35. Here, drive your car now,

we'll get around to putting the front wheels on next month or whenever.

[Vidar]

40. K&R.

[coyote]

41. When the insurance companies come to the table....they get everything they want....

but when the little people come to the table (actually we were not even invited to the table), we are suppose to appreciate the crumbs they throw at us.

So now I am suppose to hope that health care will magically improve sometime down the road because we have "our foot in the door".

Screw that. This is just another bill to screw the people.

This bill was not about improving health care or even health insurance....it was a taypayer giveaway to the insurance companies.

Why is it so difficult for the US to come up with a real health care system that will benefit society? Oh I forgot, because the buck ALWAYS trumps the people.

The only half decent thing I see in this bill is that the insurance companies have to actually spend 85% of their fund on actual healthcare...imagine that. I like to see what type of enforcement they are going use for that provision....strongly worded letters from Harry Reid?

They are just gutting the country of what little left there is.

[Better Believe It]

64. We don't have our foot in the door. The insurance industry has their boot in our ass!

[Faryn Balyncd]

42. K&R

[chill_wind]

43. I'd agree. Enough of the Fix-it Later Fairy Tales.

The time for a better bill was now. No more serious legislative energy or further fighting the corp structure will be expended on this upon Moving Forward for a long, long time.

[Blue Owl]

44. That's Dubya Talk

straight from the "history will prove us right" playbook.

THAT JOKE ISN'T FUNNY ANYMORE.

[Libertas1776]

45. A big fucking K&R!!!

I am so sick and tired of hearing all the cheerleaders tout that damnable talking point. They're not going to improve shit. If they really wanted to force mandates on people, they would have passed true insurance reform now, than work on health care reform afterward not the other way around. We are being screwed over people!!!

[Goldstein1984]

46. If they couldn't get the good stuff now

they're no more likely to get it later.

A freshman Democrat is turning Republican today. The mythological 60 seats is becoming even more of a myth.

[sabrina 1]

48. Saw that, but I think he was a Congressman. He's no loss

as he voted with Repubs most of the time. One of Rahm's Blue Dogs? Because we all know that so long as they have a 'D' after their names, we're 'winning'. He's probably just the first of the infiltrators to out himself as a Republican.

Rahm so much wants the approval of the right, and no matter what he does, they keep making a fool of him. Which is fine, except he drags the Party down with him.

I wonder if that there is a chance that that seat could be won by a real progressive. I think he's in Alabama, so probably not. So much for the 'let's get more Democrats' policy of the DLC.

[FiveGoodMen]

49. YES it is!

And they won't improve it later.

The whole idea is to paint us into a corner where we can't escape OR fight back.

[Mnpaul]

50. They tell you that if the bill fails

they won't get a chance for another ten years but if it passes, they will get on fixing it right away.

Sure. Want to buy some swampland?

[change_notfinetuning]

57. Gosh, if you can't believe a senator, who can you believe? And next time,

there will be total transparency, I tells ya. Why we'll negotiate right in your living room. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[johan helge]

51. Krugman: Pass the Bill

Krugman (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/opinion/18krugman.html):

A message to progressives: By all means, hang Senator Joe Lieberman in effigy. Declare that you’re disappointed in and/or disgusted with President Obama. Demand a change in Senate rules that, combined with the Republican strategy of total obstructionism, are in the process of making America ungovernable.

But meanwhile, pass the health care bill.

(..)

The result would be a huge increase in the availability and affordability of health insurance, with more than 30 million Americans gaining coverage, and premiums for lower-income and lower-middle-income Americans falling dramatically.

(..)

Bear in mind also the lessons of history: social insurance programs tend to start out highly imperfect and incomplete, but get better and more comprehensive as the years go by. Thus Social Security originally had huge gaps in coverage — and a majority of African-Americans, in particular, fell through those gaps. But it was improved over time, and it’s now the bedrock of retirement stability for the vast majority of Americans.

(..)

Whereas flawed social insurance programs have tended to get better over time, the story of health reform suggests that rejecting an imperfect deal in the hope of eventually getting something better is a recipe for getting nothing at all. Not to put too fine a point on it, America would be in much better shape today if Democrats had cut a deal on health care with Richard Nixon, or if Bill Clinton had cut a deal with moderate Republicans back when they still existed.

[winyanstaz]

53. yes...kill this bill. It's a bad bill.

[grahamhgreen]

55. If they simply scuttle the bill and expand medicare to everyone in reconcilliation, we have a winner

[Wizard777]

56. I think they need to mess it up a little more and THEN pass it.

Face facts. Once the bill passes the insurance industry will no longer need to spend hundreds of millions on lobbyists. They'll need to be spending that money and maybe even more on lawyers to straighten out this mess of a bill through the courts. Then while the insurance industry is tied up in court. The Democrats can pass REAL health care reform with out all the insurance industry lobbyists on everyones backs and breathing down everyones necks.

Do you personally want to tell the insurance companies to STFU! Because you're trying to have YOUR voice heard in Congress. Go buy one of their mandated policies. Then sue them to invalidate the contract for coercion and duress. Force them to trade lobbyists for lawyers. ATTACK! For every insurance industry lawyer you pull into court. There's one less lobbyist terrorizing Capitol Hill.

I think the Democrats are tossing the insurance industry a bone knowing they'll choke on it. It's brilliant!


:rofl:

[wolfgangmo]

67. I own a company

And I can't afford to hire a trial lawyer to file all of these mythical claims you are talking about. If I can't then how the hell do you expect Joe and Jane Doe, who are un and underemployed, to afford to sue?

[fascisthunter]

60. K&R (nt)

[mistertrickster]

62. Even Krugman is saying that. I don't like it either. nt.

[stevenleser]

68. That is only your opinion, and you have no facts on which to base it. All facts say the opposite.

If you like, I can provide you a partial list of the dozens and perhaps hundreds of laws that have modified medicare and Social security since their inception.

[WVRICK13]

69. The Realization That

we really are the third world is finally sinking in with the citizens. The rich are controlling more while the other classes are sinking lower. Not just this bill but in all other areas of society. It is pretty handy to make those who have less money than before support the insurance industry through forced insurance. Just like it is handy for real estate to devalue so the wealthy can scoop it up at wholesale prices while we subsidize them.

The rest of the first world has what we have been fighting for with health insurance. Heck even a lot of the third world nations have what we want in health insurance. We are a military industrial complex concerned with spreading violence and control throughout the world while the working classes pay for the folly. Has anyone noticed the increased role of the military in everyday programs? The DOD now distributes aid to foreign countries. When we wake up with the military in total control don't say you didn't see it coming. Sorry went off track there.

[hughee99]

74. That's why the repukes are going to fight it no matter what...

Harkin essentially said it the other day, it's a "starter house", but it's not really even that. The purpose of this bill, no matter how bad it is, is to establish that people are entitled to health insurance, and that it is the government's responsibility to help them get it. Once you establish that, and if you're future debates use this as a premise, you'll start to see some improvement. Repukes know this, and they do not want this. Besides, Dems are saying "Don't worry about any problems with this bill, we'll fix them later" is essentially telling repukes "Whatever concessions you get to pass this bill, we're going to take away down the road". Why would they ever vote for it?

The problem is, this bill is so weak with respect to the government's role in all of this, I'm not sure it establishes that premise (that it's the governments role to make sure everyone has health coverage). It's not like a starter house, it's like buying the land. You now have a place to build a house if you want to, but you haven't committed to doing that, and it's not a forgone conclusion that you will.

[mntleo2]

76. Yeah, yeah, yeah they also said it about ...

...the Welfare Reform bill in 1996 and nothing was ever done, indeed it has only gotten WORSE. In spite of millions of people telling them it needed to be improved. Now when we need a safety net the most, families are dying. F them!

Improve it later ...yeah right, quit lying!

GET THIS PEOPLE, WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU WILL GET ...FOREVER IF THEY HAVE THEIR WAY.

Cat In Seattle

[girl_interrupted]

80. K&R

[Clear Blue Sky]

81. How many bills have actually been improved over time or come in under budget?

[ProSense]

84. Top House Liberal Suggests He Could Accept Deal On Senate Bill

here

[Kablooie]

85. Have you read the bill? Have you read the House bill? What exactly are the POS differences?

[invictus]

86. K&R

[KoKo]

87. FISA and PATRIOT ACT...show...THEY WILL NEVER RE-VISIT/REPAIR the BILL

They are STOOGES TO THE LOBBYISTS! They will never do anything after the "POS" is PASSED...whether for BUSH II or OBAMA...MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

[rasputin1952]

88. Let's see...

Originally, SS only covered the worker, not the spouse or the kids. Amended several times.

Medicare initially only mattered if you were dying and broke. Amended several times.

Medicaid only covered the absolutely destitute, and not children. Amended several times.


We have no idea what is coming out of Conference, you are declaring your hatred for a bill before it has been hashed over...and once again, if nothing goes through, there will be nothing to amend. We will all be at Square One again, what will happen, is that people will be tossed from their current insurance; many will not get insurance because of pre-existing conditions; more people will die before their time, children will get ill and go untreated.

All this...because some people have somehow decided that nothing is better than something.

Sorry, I just don't get it.

[Highway61]

89. OK....so

What is YOUR solution??? You're very good at complaining. If this bill doesn't pass, the democrats will go down in 2010 then you can forget about ANY health care reform for at least a generation. You are not going to get 60 votes in THIS Senate for government sponsored universal health care if your position is all or nothing....your gonna get nothing.

Go back and read your history....yes, HISTORY! Ya know, like read. When was the last time this was even discussed and ACTED upon? Give me a break...this is a beginning...that's right, a BEGINNING. Go back to Bush and see what you get. Good luck with that. Your on the wrong website.