It's time to increase the penalties for animal abuse.

[Cetacea]

Perhaps a mandatory one year prison sentence (minimum) would stop the awful trend that is increasing in this country.

[Blue Owl]

1. Sounds good to me

I fully believe animal abuse is an indicator of much more serious problems.

Being cruel is no way to live. Just look at Dick Cheney.

[Captain Hilts]

2. Abusing children and animals is a BIG FLASHING sign of serious psychological problems. nt

[dana_b]

3. true

sociopathic behavior with no feeling for those weaker or innocent

[phasma ex machina]

31. Best to obtain cell phone photo evidence when you see a psychopath abusing creatures.

A psychopath abuses creatures by definition.

[CBGLuthier]

70. or, maybe, that someone is just an asshole?

I agree some of it ties to mental illness but some people are just plain assholes.

[kiva]

4. Agreed.

I know that the prison system is violent and makes victims of many of its inmates, and I know that we are in a budget crunch and it's expensive to imprison people, but damn, there needs to be a way to punish sadistic cowards who torture animals. :mad:

[phasma ex machina]

32. "I know that we are in a budget crunch"

It makes me sick to my stomach ponder the hell that a bad economy raises. :puke:

[WVRICK13]

5. People Who Abuse Animals

scare the crap out of me because that is merely a symptom of even worse deeds that have gone undetected or will occur in the future.

[Cetacea]

6. It's a felony in forty-six states. Link.

http://www.americanhumane.org/advocacy/animal-protection/animal-cruelty-summary.html

[we can do it]

7. So Would You Think a Kindergartner Who Filled a Sink with Water

went and got his little girlfriend holding her hamster under the water in her hand until it drowned had some kind of problem?

[Chan790]

23. um...

where did you find that hypothetical? It's gruesome...and yeah, I'd say that one or both of those kids might have issues. Minimally, I think they need a court-ordered psychiatric exam...even if they had no idea what they were doing, that would be traumatic for most 5 year olds.

[we can do it]

49. My Partner's Nephew Did This About 5 Years Ago

I absolutely thought he needed immediate counseling - they mom and her parents have dismissed it- he's been in trouble at school (and I'm sure I hear very little of it), chasing other kids with scissors - threatebing and fighting, gets suspended a lot- mom and grandparents always think its someone else's fault.....I will absolutely not let the little freak in my house or near my to kitties-

[WVRICK13]

24. The Best Argument I Have Heard For

early confinement and psychological testing for the children and a very close look at the family structure. I was raised to respect all animals and had it reinforced with love and respect toward me and my siblings.

[we can do it]

52. This Kid and His Mom Have No Respect For Themselves or Others

they are "users" they use people for all they can- then discard them for another sucker.....

[lukasahero]

40. Yes. Wouldn't you?

It's a fucking living being. My kindergartner's understand that - don't yours?

[we can do it]

51. I Agree- Most 5 Year Olds Would Never Think of Doing Something Like That

I do not want this kid around me.

[Duppers]

48. Hell yes!

Such an action requires the children/ parents be examined.

You think such actions are innocent? Then you have a problem too!!!!!

[donheld]

61. My brother used to as a kid

put fire crackers in toad's mouths and light them. He grew up and wouldn't hurt a flea now.

[Goldstein1984]

8. My best friend is a German Shepherd, Bruno, who saved

my life during a bear attack two three years ago. People torture animals bred to do nothing but protect and love us.

But I know we're not just talking about domestic pets. Suffering is suffering.

I support the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, which is currently in Antarctic waters interfering with Japan's cruel and anachronistic whale hunting.

I don't understand how these people think.

[Cetacea]

16. Here's to Bruno!

:toast:

[RKP5637]

9. +1000, n/t

[jgraz]

10. Long past time.

Animal abusers should be given a lifetime ban on owning or sharing a household with animals.

[Cetacea]

12. Good idea.

Treat them in a fashion similar to how we treat sex offenders.

[Thickasabrick]

11. I hate my two dogs today. They cornered a squirrel and killed it -

I heard the poor squirrel squealing and now that's all I can think about. I managed to get the dogs away but it was too late.

I feel so guilty about that squirrel but I don't know how to train my dogs not to kill things.

Sorry to hijack your thread - I just can't quit thinking about that squirrel.

[Cetacea]

14. That's a tough one.

No worries about the thread.
How old are the dogs? Maybe you can consult an animal trainer/behaviorist?

[Thickasabrick]

18. One is 11 husky mix, and the other is 3 lab mix - both very wild. You

are so sweet to forgive the hijack.

As to your OP - I agree absolutely - if people can hurt defenseless animals they will hurt people eventually - we should send lessons.

[amborin]

19. that happened to us once....we came home to a horrible

scene....three squirrels had somehow gotten in our dog door, i guess, and the dogs got them!

[Thickasabrick]

22. OMG!!! Three??? I'm really glad you missed the squealing part

at least but jeez you had them in your house!!

[amborin]

33. it was mainly one of our three dogs, an alpha female that was

sometimes very nasty, but i'm sure the others participated. very ghastly!

[jgraz]

21. They're just being carnivores

My girlfriend's cat likes to catch and torture mice. It's just what they do.

Sorry it was traumatic for you. I totally understand how you feel.

[Thickasabrick]

27. Thank you - that actually is the only way to look at this but sometimes

you forget your dogs (or cats) are animals.

[lukasahero]

37. Omnivores

Dogs are omnivores.

To the poster whose dogs killed the squirrel - I'm sorry you have that in your head and heart now. A family cat killed a baby bunny once and I still hear the squeals 35 years later. It's never easy on a sensitive soul. :hug:

[jgraz]

47. "Carnivore" as in "member of the order Carnivora".

In other words, mammals evolved to kill animals and eat them.

[Withywindle]

56. Oh, ow, I've really, really been there.

When I was a kid, my parents and I always had birdfeeders and lots of wildlife. There were a few squirrels we'd been feeding all winter, and one day our dog killed one of them right in front of us. I cried, so did my mom...none of us saw it coming.

The saddest part was, the dog looked really upset and confused too. Carnivorous instincts - maybe, but she'd never been trained as a hunter in any way. I really believe to this day she just wanted to *play* with the squirrel and was really shocked and guilty when she "broke" it. (She was a German Shepherd - big dog, didn't know her own strength.) She was very meek and subdued for a couple of days afterward and was never known to chase a squirrel again.

[flvegan]

13. Add mandatory penalties keeping the convicted from having/owning any in the future.

[Cetacea]

15. And prohibit any contact as well. nt

[Echo In Light]

17. Absolutely

[Ignis]

29. Yes, this.

Why this obvious step is so often overlooked in AR laws is beyond me. :banghead:

[Jamastiene]

46. +1000000

[goldcanyonaz]

20. I agree. They should be jailed.

I have no sympathy for those who hurt animals.

We have a new member of our family, a little kitten who came to us with a broken tail.

[BreweryYardRat]

25. For severe cases, just shoot them.

A prison sentence might work for some brainless jackass who beats his dog, but for cases like that cat getting superglued to the highway...

If a teenager or adult is already to the point of torturing something as trusting, helpless, and innocent as an animal, they're not redeemable.

And I don't think it's an increasing trend, it's just that the national consciousness is starting to recognize how awful it is, so the incidents get more coverage.

[Hidden Stillness]

26. The Whole Area of Animals and Their Rights in Law Needs Modernizing

"The very worst thing that can happen to a child is to be cruel to an animal and get away with it," said the anthropologist Margaret Mead, because then they learned from society that the animal is not "worth it," that it is "trivial," that no one is on the side of the animal. This is poisonous. This is such a difficult thing to solve, because it is not mental illness, it is cruelty, it is learned behavior, it is a kind of rage at frustration, enjoyment of inflicting pain, complete lack of conscience and identification with the suffering of another, so many things.

Kids need to be taught--by example--gentleness and kindness to animals, respect for them, and revulsion at a cruel or contemptuous attitude toward them. Many elements make it up. The law needs to get up to date, and treat the crime as the animal being the injured victim, instead of "some human's property," as it sickeningly is now. Animals and their status, rights, etc., do not even figure in the way the law is thought of now--all of this needs to get with the modern attitude and understanding of things.

[Cetacea]

28. I agree. There are people who don't even believe they are capable of feeling.

Thanks for the Mead quotes as well. She and Gregory Bateson were quite a team.

[Ignis]

30. Agreed.

The only problem is getting a disparate population to draw the line as to which species it protects, and in what capacities--e.g., "farm" animals vs. "pet" animals.

But I'd be willing to start with those animals that the majority of Americans consider to be non-food animals. Hell, I'm willing to pick a single freakin' species as a start, if that's what it takes to get the ball rolling.

Thanks for posting this. :toast:

[Cetacea]

34. Why not just make it a blanket protection for all animals?

They are all innocent.


And you're very welcome.


:toast:

[Ignis]

36. Because it'd never pass outside major cities.

And I'd rather see incremental progress than the past decade of just-about-nothing on this issue.

But of course(!), no animal deserves to be abused.

OT: BTW, did you see this before it sank past the first page? Seems right up your alley.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7147359

[Cetacea]

43. Thanks for the link! eom

[superduperfarleft]

35. So what's for dinner tonight, everyone? n/t

[lukasahero]

38. A vegetable casserole. You? eom

[superduperfarleft]

41. Leftover vegan "meat"loaf.

;)

[lukasahero]

42. Well, there you go.

;)

[lukasahero]

39. Agreed. 100 %. eom

[racaulk]

44. I completely agree.

It's all so damn senseless. I really just fail to understand how people can be so fucking cruel and sadistic to an animal that causes them absolutely no harm.

K&R!

[Jamastiene]

45. Agreed.

K&R

[Bluebear]

50. Hear, hear!

[dflprincess]

53. Great story tonight on the local news

about a dog that belonged to Michael Vick that was adopted by a local woman and is now a certified therapy dog. Today he was visiting an elementary school to help teach kids not to be cruel to animals.


http://wcco.com/pets/hector.vick.dog.2.1386512.html

Hector was one of 52 terribly abused and neglected dogs owned by NFL quarterback Michael Vick and his friends. He landed here in Minnesota and is now part of a student service learning project which teaches the kids not to be mean or hurt animals.

"In St. Paul, there seem to be quite a bit of pets ... not always treated well. So, we're trying to let them see another side of owning a pet as opposed to what they see at home or at a friends," said Anderson. "If you can catch them at an early age and plant the seed of kindness and empathy we think that it will hopefully pass on for the rest of their lives."

Amazingly, Hector's adopted family said his abusive former life did not change him into an aggressive and dangerous dog. "He just had to learn how to be a pet dog but He didn't need any behavior modification or anything. He was already a very sweet, solid dog," said owner Cara Yori.

Hector was kind enough to pass 10 tests and become a certified therapy dog.

He is currently busy bringing cheer to nursing homes and hospitals around Minnesota.

[flvegan]

54. That is an excellent, albeit unsurprising story.

A pit bull with a bad past being a typical pit bull with a good future.

Thanks for posting that!

[dflprincess]

55. I didn't notice if the video is posted at the link

I'd assume it is. You should see this dog, at one point someone (an adult) is holding him in their arms like a baby and he's totally relaxed.

I firmly believe there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. It is tragic that some dogs have been so badly treated that they cannot be trusted again. Given what this poor pup has been through he must have an exceptional heart to have come through it and be such a sweet dog. Perhaps his very early life was not so horrific and he received some love when he was very young that got him through.

[flvegan]

58. Oh, I know.

I run a rescue here that specializes in this very sort of dog. I was actually hoping to get one or two of the Vick dogs.

[Withywindle]

57. Absolutely agreed!

There's no excuse whatsoever for deliberate, wanton cruelty towards any living creature. Although an animal is not the same as a person, there's no difference at all in my mind between someone who gets their jollies abusing animals and someone who gets their jollies abusing humans.

The issue is not who or what the victim is, the issue is the fact that the motive is recreational sadism. The creep in that thread who superglued a cat to a highway is just as unworthy of being in civilized society as Dick Cheney is, he just has less power.

Also, pets are not just "property." Anyone who loses a beloved pet to someone else's abuse or recklessness should be able to sue for wrongful death damages far and above the pet's "economic" value. The latter is usually far too cheap. Yes, dogs and cats are a dime a dozen. So are children - no shortage of them around either. The whole point about wrongful death cases is that you are able to sue for a significant, punitive amount of money because you were caused agonizing grief by the needless loss of a particular individual that you loved. Of course the individual is irreplaceable for any price. The suit just sends a message, an important one.

[Cetacea]

59. Thank you.

Being able to sue for wrongful death is a great idea. I believe that within the next five or so years certain animals will be elevated to near-human status. It has become apparent to researchers that some mammals exhibit "person hood".

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/06/whalepeople

[Withywindle]

60. This has always bothered me.

So I could shoot a neighbors' pet for the hell of it and the most I could get sued for is the "price" of the animal's breed? So a careless, incompetent veterinarian* can cause all kinds of havoc and be penalized only at a level that a careless human-doctor would laugh at?

That is NOT RIGHT. The law has to catch up to the fact that for, as far as I can see, a pretty sizable percentage of the population considers pets to be family members. The law needs to start reflecting that.



*I know they exist, but I actually think they are far rarer than people-doctors who don't care about helping, only the money. I've known several veterinarians whom I've thought about approaching to ask if they'd treat ME for certain basic, obvious conditions for cash under the table.

[Cetacea]

62. I don't believe it would/should be breed specific.

The support is there for cats and dogs. I think a good portion of Americans consider their pets (hate that word too) as family members. I also believe that what you are suggesting would receive wide support right now.
It should be for ANY species and based on the same laws that we have in place for children. Both are innocent.

Regarding intelligence, the recent discovery that Octopus' exhibit tool use may be a game changer in how we think about even the most "basic" forms of life. And a recent European study found dogs to exceed the intelligence of human two-year olds.


It's not about intelligence though. There are still many people who believe that animals are "its" that have no feelings and feel no pain.

Octopus tool use: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2009/12/veined-octopus-uses-tools-coconut-shell.html




edit:link

[Withywindle]

64. Right now, it's price-specific.

My cat is a random-bred street moggie. I paid $65 adoption fee from the shelter, and that included medical tests, microchipping, and a big bag of cat food.

Someone else might have paid $1,000 for a purebred kitten or puppy with papers from a breeder.

Currently the law treats animals as "property," so just as a 20-year-old beat-up mixed-part Ford Escort is appraised for less value than a brand-new Bentley, obviously that should also apply to pets, right?

WRONG. A family member is a family member. Should make no difference if it came from your own womb for free or you paid a year's salary to adopt.

(I know you're with me on this, I just wanted to make it clear for others.)

That Octopus video is amazing. We already know (or should if we're paying attention) that apes, chimps, whales, wolves, and elephants, to name a few have social structures where every individual is important, and do ritual mourning if a member of the clan dies. Parrots live as long as we do and seem to also have a rich form of language, and I've read good books by a researcher who's lived with ravens and crows for years and ranks them up there with chimps and dolphins (and human children).

[Cetacea]

67. +1..

I agree with you one-hundred per cent. Of all of the animals you wrote of I've had experience with dolphins, whales, ravens and parrots (and of course domestic animals). All of them were simply amazing to interact with.
Crows and ravens in particular don't get enough credit. :)
Have you seen the still photos posted here a few days ago of the mourning swallow? I don't have a link but I believe it was entitled "Who Says Birds have no feelings?" .
It's sad but enlightening.

Thanks for your responses!

[superduperfarleft]

66. Would you apply that to all animals, or just cats and dogs?

You do realize that by granting animals "personhood" under the law, you'd basically be criminalizing meat, egg, and dairy production. Not that I have a particular problem with that (although I'd prefer that using animals for food be phased out as a cultural change as opposed to a legislative one), just making sure you understand what you're advocating.

[vadawg]

68. yup that seems to be the point with some posters, to stop us eating them

working them, hunting them or even treating them as pets rather than as equals.

[superduperfarleft]

71. Well, I'd prefer that you do all four. I'm just curious if the poster knows what they are

advocating.

And like I said, I'd prefer this be a cultural shift as opposed to something codified into law.

[vadawg]

74. im on the other side of the argument, especially when there is all the free food walking, swimming

and flying around, your never going to get people to give up meat and hunting and fishing unless you do it under penalty of law. How are you going to legislate stuff like dogsled teams, or other dogs that love to work.

[superduperfarleft]

76. Like I said, you can't legislate it.

I'm hopeful, but not too hopeful, that our society will eventually evolve to a point where we recognize that sentient creatures have their own interests and don't deserve to be treated merely as machines or tools to satisfy some human whim.

[vadawg]

79. i dont think you will ever change the culture either, to many people enjoy meat

and to many parts of the cultures in the US surround the collection of meat, whether thats fishing or hunting or trapping...

[Cetacea]

69. Ultimately all animals.

And I do realize that it's a legalistic Pandora's Box. Perhaps laws can be phased in over time with immediate attention to the species that we are fairly certain possess self-awareness and cerebral spindle cells. (spindle cells were previously thought to only exist in humans and are thought to regulate emotions,pain,happiness,etc))
Those would be dolphins, whales, elephants, some birds, and apes, and of course domestic animals that most people keep as pets.

[superduperfarleft]

72. As probably one of the most radical militant vegans you'll ever meet

even I don't agree with "outlawing" the consumption of animals. Not because I think people should be eating them, but because I believe, like with most things, laws don't really work.

And I find it interesting that out of all the animals you listed in your post, you don't mention the obvious ones: cows, chickens, pigs, fish, etc.

[Cetacea]

73. I understand. I am advocating stiffer sentencing for all cases of abuse.

And clear cases of abuse, such as the cat being crazy-glued to the freeway. I don't believe it's realistic at this point to advocate for "livestock". That's almost as hard as asking people to give up there cards and expecting them to comply. But I agree with you.
Hopefully the whole notion of animals as food sources will fall away. Since it is already a felony to abuse ALL animals, it is really the harsher sentencing that I am advocating.

[superduperfarleft]

75. I see what you're saying.

You and I are probably on the same page, but it never hurts to point out (for other people, not you) what has been called the "moral schizophrenia" about the way we treat certain animals depending on how we arbitrarily classify some as "pets" and others as "food."

[Cetacea]

77. Thanks. Like you I would prefer a cultural shift to new laws.

But I have lost patience after seeing so much for so long. Some of the species I mentioned are in danger of being wiped and if brain size and complexity are accurate indicators, probably feel more pain than humans, so I tend to put them at the top of my wish-list.

[Withywindle]

81. At this point, it makes sense to apply it to pets only.

Not just cats and dogs - any pet. Many people feel a strong relationship with horses, for example.


I do think cruelty in farming for meat should be punished more severely than it is, also, but I think that's a separate category.

[superduperfarleft]

83. What if I have a cow as a "pet?"

Do you think my cow should be accorded more rights under the law than just as property as well? If so, how would you reconcile giving legal rights to my pet cow and not the cows destined for slaughter?

That's the problem with society's notion of "pets" vs. "food." Not only does the concept of what constitutes a pet and what constitutes food vary from culture to culture, but you can't apply it fairly to one species and not to another simply because we think one species is more cuddly than the other. If the idea of granting some sort of legal rights to animals is based on the idea that they can suffer and feel pain, then you can't leave out cows, pigs, chickens, etc. simply because we like the way they taste, because they are all most definitely capable of suffering and feeling pain as well. And if the idea of granting legal rights to animals is based on keeping human pet "owners" comfortable, well that's not very much of a right at all, since a shift in societal attitudes towards what constitutes a pet could be stripped from that animal on a whim.

[Hannah Bell]

63. Why don't we just put everyone in prison for life & be done with it.

[Cetacea]

65. Fine. Let's start with child and animal abusers.

[Mari333]

78. when my oldest son was a little boy, he saved every animal

the neighborhood kids were harassing a toad, once..he put his body between the kids and the toad, and wouldnt let them hit it with a stick. He brought home birds to me to save, and everything else alive that was floundering out there.

I dont think its one bit natural to hurt anything, ... kids who do that are NOT being taught correctly.

[Cetacea]

80. I don't believe it's natural either.

Most children feel an instant affection and fascination for animals. There does appear to be some phase that adolescent boys go through in which some are prone to mostly one-time instances of abuse but I am not sure I buy into that as being a normal phase.

I know someone just like your son. :)

[superduperfarleft]

84. ""You put a baby in a crib with an apple and a rabbit."

"If it eats the rabbit and plays with the apple, I'll buy you a new car." - Harvey Diamond

You are correct, kids are taught to be cruel, barring any biologically-based psychological problems. I'd suggest this includes eating meat. Introduce your five-year-old to some cows, then tell him where his hamburger comes from, and I be willing to bet he'd be horrified. As we grow older, we learn to suppress this natural revulsion to cruelty because eating animals is "normal."

"Life is not determined by consciousness, but consciousness by life." - Karl Marx

[Vidar]

82. I agree. Recommended.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. Is there really a trend?

[pitohui]

87. no but we can make it a trend by destroying a person's life so they've absolutely nothing 2 lose

mandatory sentences are not a good idea

it's too bad that we have so many judges on the take, but the way to deal with that is to investigate and jail the bad judges, and let the wise judges make good decisions based on each individual case

a person convicted of "cruelty" to animals who had to euthanize some unwanted kittens because they don't know what else to do is a far different person from someone who steals, tortures, and kills animals for pleasure

a person convicted of "cruelty" to animals because she had a disease that caused her to collect more than she could care for...again...that is a far different case from the serial torturer

some people -- many people -- who have been convicted of cruelty of animals actually have this animal hoarding disease -- medication and psychiatric care is the way to deal with it, not jail

i'm sick of living in a society of hate and vengeance

it's xmas

let's propose some ideas for creating fewer prisoners and less suffering in our world, instead of proposing more prisoners and more suffering

maybe we could save some of the hate for everybody and everything around us for the new year and just give it a rest for a few more days?

[Cetacea]

89. Gluing a cats paws to highway pavement is not a hoarding disorder.

You've moved the goal posts. I agree that there are too many people in prisons. And many of them are there because of "The War on Drugs".

Animal hoarding is not the kind of abuse I am referring to.
Some of us have to pick up the pieces left behind by these people. I'll remember to think happy thoughts about the animal torturers.

Happy Xmas just the same.

[Cetacea]

90. Yes, as much as cop killing and students shooting one another.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. So then no.

OK.

[Cetacea]

94. Silly rabbit.

[txaslftist]

86. LOL. Sure....

because we aren't already jailing enough people. We have the number one prison population in the world, and still expanding, both as a percentage of the population and as a raw number. We have more people in prison than CHINA, with 4 times our population.

Let's add mandatory minimums for MORE stuff, as if animal cruelty or animal abuse isn't already a felony in every state in the union...

[Cetacea]

88. Decriminalize drugs. There will be lots of room.

[txaslftist]

92. Everyone wants someone else locked up.

We are already all getting our wish in that respect. Drugs won't be decriminalized any time soon.

[Cetacea]

93. So in cases of clear criminal intent, you are for...what exactly?

[comtec]

95. At least the us HAS animal cruelty laws

The ones here in holland are weak (IMHO), and don't even bother going to Spain. fucking spanish!
It's funny really. How far behind Europe is in this. And will probably never catch up to the US in this ONE thing.
If ur a person, its' great.... if you're a dog and get nailed to a tree (so help me god if I ever meet that bastard)... well tough!

And to the poster with the 2 dogs v 1 Squirrel... yeah that really F'ing sucks, but maybe the squirrel was talking smack about you adn the dogs taught it a rather permanent lesson?

Also Husky's are not the easiest breed. And BOTH those breeds are VERY protective of their pack.

You are THEIR Alpha, never forget, or let THEM forget that.

but yeah... that really sucks, you have my sympathies.
But don't be too hard on them. They love you, and it is what they do after all. We call them animals for a reason.