I am torn by the conflict between DUers that I respect and....

[kentuck]

Democratic Congressmen and Senators that I also respect. When people like Senators Harkin, Durbin, Boxer, Bernie Sanders, Sherrod Brown, and others are voting for the healthcare bill, do they know something that we do not?

At the same time, no one has been more right on the issues in the long run than DU. So when my friends here at DU say it is a piece of shit, who am I to believe? Who should I believe?

[shraby]

1. Go read my last post..and follow it to DailyKos and you

might understand what's going on.
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7303316>

edited to add link

[NYC_SKP]

6. Thanks for adding the link.... I'll put the DKOS one here:

Since I went to the trouble of reading it and copying URL to clipboard. :P

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/22/818060/-This-HCR-Bill:-45,000,000-Get-Single-Payer-Vermont-Health-Care

Thanks for the heads up.

[kentuck]

2. It's always encouraging to be able to depend on the "unrec"...

no matter what you might say. I'm beginning to think Skinner might want to revisit his decision?

[WT Fuheck]

3. Sanders' support was equivocal at best

Would you really trust a politician--*any* politician--over DU?

They've given us NAFTA, the PATRIOT Act, Iraq (and Afghanistan) War Powers, a military budget greater than the rest of the world combined, a completely deregulated predatory capitalist economy (that they bail out over and over and over again when stealing from us proves insufficient to meet their bonus needs)...

kentuck!

[kentuck]

7. These folks had given me no reason not to trust them?

I'm trying to judge the truth of the matter without taking sides. I have given DU due credit.

[WT Fuheck]

13. I know.

FWIW, I think you are the purest spirit on DU.

:thumbsup:

Traitorous "leaders" create quandaries for us all. They rely on that confusion. It gives them an "in" with those who are not vigilant.

[Egnever]

4. Read it !

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/managers-amendment.pdf

[kentuck]

11. Can anyone honestly say they can read from an Adobe PDF screen?

It's almost impossible.

[shraby]

14. Did you know you can enlarge the words and make the

text easier to read? I have no trouble with pdf.

[kentuck]

20. Yeah..

you can enlarge it, you can scroll it, you can get lost on the pages. I really dislike that program.

[frazzled]

16. It's clear as a bell for me

I'm no techie, so I don't know what your system's problem is ... but my whole work (depleted as it is at the moment) depends on being able to read proofs on Adobe PDFs.

[elocs]

57. The main print is hard to read for me whether it is large or small.

It just doesn't seem as solid as that in the bold.

[Barack_America]

5. How they will vote on it and what they think of it are not necessarily the same.

I'd bet they'd be trashing the shit out of it on DU, if they could do so anonymously.

[NYC_SKP]

8. Hell yes they know something we don't know.

And, unlike many here, they aren't blinded to the forest by any singular trees.

A good DKos thread on this.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/22/818060/-This-HCR-Bill:-45,000,000-Get-Single-Payer-Vermont-Health-Care

K and R.

[Hekate]

41. THANK YOU, NYC_SKP! The Kos article makes a great read. Recommended.

:fistbump:

[NYC_SKP]

42. Right on, Hekate!

Thanks!

:fistbump:

[kirby]

9. It is simple...

They know the bill stinks. But they are putting politics above the country. They know that if SOME bill does not pass, Obama and the Democratic led Congress will be labeled as a failure. That will hurt their momentum on tackling the others issues such as Cap & Trade legislation. They have backed themselves into a corner where the only face saving measure is to pass something soon and get on with other stuff.

[rwheeler31]

10. Both are right in this case, I believe it is better to pass

this with some good things in it. If we let it fail we loose more seats. I want a Democrat to name the next supreme court justice and a senate who will confirm.

[ShamelessHussy]

12. i think that there are some good things in there, so that is why i am in favor of passing it

even though there are many other things in it that i don't like, and others that should be in there.

one thing i have learned over the years is that CHANGE is the only constant, and the goes for laws, too ;)

gotta keep pluggin is all...

[dflprincess]

15. Putting party over principle

it's not the first time, it won't be the last. At least Sanders got something out it first that actually benefits people across the country.

[kentuck]

17. I had actually suggested in writing to the White House that...

they should expand Community Health Centers. In the process, they could train nurses across the nation to help in these new centers. This would be a great job training program. I never heard back from them. So it is encouraging that Bernie has proposed this in his Amendment. If they follow thru with the next step of training nurses and other folks to help with the new Community Health Centers, then I could support that.

[BlueDemKev]

18. Incremental Approach is the Best Way

That's a great question. Look at it this way: when Social Security and Medicare were created, they were far from perfect. However, as time went buy subsequent Congresses tinkered with them, added more meat to the programs and made them great programs which are now an integral part of American society. The same will happen with health care reform. It's nearly impossible to take 18% of the gross domestic product and reform it all at once.

While we all wish that the Senate bill (which most likely will be the bill the president ultimately signs less a few minor changes) had a few more teeth (i.e.--public option, or even a single-payer system), the current bill lays the groundwork for further reform. While it gives the immediate benefit of banning the outrageous practice of denying coverage due to a pre-existing condition, it puts us on a road to more governmental oversight of the health care industry. We can and will add more meat to it in the years ahead. THAT'S WHY CONSERVATIVES ARE DEAD-SET AGAINST THE BILL. It really does nothing they're afraid of as it's purely a market-based reform bill. But they know that once a foundation is laid, a house will be built.

We cannot turn our backs on our party at this time. It is imperative that the Democrats keep control of both houses of Congress so they can continue working with President Obama to advance an agenda which will make our country a better place to live.

[Abq_Sarah]

19. I'm a cynic when it comes to congress

Follow the money. Who has received the most donations from the insurance industry in the last year?

This bill does a hell of a lot more for the insurance companies and their shareholders than it does for the taxpayers.

[TorchTheWitch]

21. are you not capable of making decisions for yourself?

Can you not examine a thing and decide for yourself whether or not you support it? What do you care what polititians or DUers tell you about a thing if you're capable of figuring it out for yourself? What possible reason is there for not being capable of making your own decision based on your own analysis?

Damn, no wonder most Americans are such sheep. They've stopped thinking for themselves and think it's normal.

[kentuck]

22. That was the point of my post...

I have made a decision. I don't think either side is wrong. It is good that people think for themselves. But sometimes they should not be so knee-jerk. They should be more thougtful.

But no, we can't do that. We should throw Obama overboard now. He has betrayed us. All the Senators are crooks or naive followers of the Party. One thing we may agree upon: You sure as hell cannot trust the Republicans!

[TorchTheWitch]

39. thinking for one's self doesn't mean knee-jerk

At all. This bill has been in the works for MONTHS and some of us have been paying attention. Some of us have been paying attention for so long it comes as no surprise that Obama is a corporate whore because we already figured out the the Dem party has long since been taken over by corporate whores who don't give shit one about the people anymore than Repubs do.

Yep, Obama betrayed us just as I figured he would and figured any Dem that got elected for the job would.

[kentuck]

40. Let me see. I am weighing my options.

Should I believe you or those rational Senators. We'll have to follow your advice on that one.

[MadBadger]

31. You win the Douche bag of Day Award!

[eridani]

23. No they don't know anything we don't. They've just resigned to being bullied.

And they don't like voting with Repukes.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

24. Perhaps both are right

It is a poor bill but must be passed.

Policy versus politics.

Both count.

It is not so terribly bad that it is worth the political cost of it failing... or at least that seems to be the calculation.

[kentuck]

25. Interesting...

way to look at it.

[Orangepeel]

26. because there isn't a right answer

there are good things in the bill and bad things in the bill. It will help some people and may hurt others. It will mitigate some of the most egregious practices of insurance companies but will also force people to buy. It might have some negative political consequences and it might have positive political consequences. It's probably the best we can do, but it might not be better than nothing.

Reasonable people can weigh the same set of factors and come up with opposite conclusions.

[kentuck]

27. Well said.

Orangepeel.

[KittyWampus]

28. A lot of "your friends" on DU were wrong about a lot of things. Edwards running for POTUS comes to

mind.

[saracat]

33. Edwards had the best platform.

[cali]

50. and the worst record. by leaps and bounds. n/t

[saracat]

60. Not so.And his work on the Patent's Bill of rightsis to be commended

If he were in the Senate today, folks would be justifying all his qeustionable votes as they are now doing with all the others. His record was not much different from ost of the nominees with a real senate record.

[Ian David]

29. If Barbara Boxer and Al Franken are voting for it, I'm slightly less concerned. n/t

[Oregone]

30. Are they actually voting for the health care bill? Or the survival of the Obama administration?

Or the survival of their chairmanships?


Because even a progressive can justify the later, if they believed more good could be accomplished in other areas with "liberals" in charge.


We don't know WTF is going on behind closed doors

[phasma ex machina]

34. +1 It's usually not in my own best interest for insiders to do deals behind outsider's backs. nt

[Hippo_Tron]

32. I would listen to people with reasonable arguments, not those who are hysterical

There are those here who do firmly oppose this bill and I respect their opinions and I think you should listen to them. They are right in that this bill doesn't do enough to cover people and doesn't do enough to regulate the insurance companies. That we will be forced to purchase insurance but nothing will be done to really control the costs of insurance is a serious concern that I have. Weighing that against the prospect of subsidizing millions of people and ending discrimination based on pre-existing conditions I have determined that in my view the bill is a net positive. Others have determined otherwise and again I respect their opinions.

I wouldn't listen to the people who are posting all of this nonsense about debtors prisons on one end or the people who suggest that this bill is exactly what Obama campaigned on, on the other end. There aren't going to be debtors prisons and legislation never looks like what a President campaigns on after Congress is done with it.

[BeFree]

35. Yeah

It seems as if the idea of the mandate that everyone buys in is the main problem with DUers. And Gawd that puts me in that camp.

But given that universal care - if we ever get there - is gonna have a mandate that makes everyone pay..... it makes ya wonder.

I just can't see the great Senators we have selling us down the river as the cries here seem to claim. Could be that I am fooled again - there is precedent - but this time methinks they are engineering something that will help a majority of people.

[Hippo_Tron]

38. Eventually they will have to regulate the insurance companies

Health care is just too expensive under the status quo and it will keep getting more expensive. Eventually they will have no choice but to control costs.

As I said below, I think the key milestone in this bill is that we've defeated the libertarian crowd that doesn't want their tax money to subsidize other peoples' health care. That is an improvement. The next step is controlling costs.

[BeFree]

43. Very well said

There are two cost controls involved:
One is the insurance companies and iirc they will now be limited to a % of administrative costs. Inherent in that is the gov looking over the books, finally.

Second is the whole HC industry itself - doctors, etc. That is gonna be the tough part.

We're over the biggest hurdle with the passage of these big changes.
Next is it gonna be an uphill or downhill battle, is the question.

[Hippo_Tron]

36. Let me add that a lot of this has to do with one's theoretical view of politics

There are, IMO, two main obstacles to getting a universal single-payer type system that they have in most other industrialized nations. The first is the insurance companies who are heavily invested in the status quo. The second is group is people, some of them rich and some of them not so rich who both hate the idea that their tax dollars might go to pay for somebody else's health care.

This bill is, IMO a major victory over the second group. We have passed a big milestone in that taxpayer dollars will go to subsidize health care for more than just children, elderly, and poor. That is a big step in my view.

The bill does not do anything about insurance company control over the system and there it is lacking. I think solving the second problem is good enough reason to pass the bill and we can deal with the first problem later. However, some people believe that the second problem is relatively minor compared to the first and that really the only major problem is the insurance companies.

[jmc]

46. Nail...meet the head!

You hit it perfectly. I so much wish that people could see this as the milestone that history will record it as. It is a start. Anyone who expected a perfect bill perhaps doesn't understand the politics of keeping constituencies happy, getting re-elected, keeping your status and keeping your support. Politics is a game. Luckily for the country, we just got into the endzone.

You said it perfectly, "We have passed a big milestone." I hope that eventually enough people will understand that on the level you do.

[KrR]

37. Why would you be against subsidizing health

care for millions of lower income Americans?

[madfloridian]

44. Because there are unknowns about what will happen to...

the lower middle class who may not quality for subsidies but who will be required to buy insurance even if they can't afford it. Just being out of work will not necessarily qualify one.

[mzmolly]

45. Take your time and learn all you can

and be patient with yourself kentuck. :hi: You needn't like or dislike everything about the bill.

Peace

[SoCalDem]

47. Well, there's shit and then there's shit

If you've been constipated, shit can be a very good thing, but if you've got raging diarrhea, ...not so much..

There are so many working parts in the wannabee-bill, and it's not even thru committee, and it has more votes ahead, so who knows how it will end up..

and every comma has its own loophole..as does every "may, might, will & shall".. I have no doubt that even a lowly "S" will somehow be the difference between having or not having it, for some people.

I am sure though, that as a participant in a "cadillac" plan, MY family will end up paying more.. but if it means that someone needier than we are, can now HAVE health care, I can live with that.

I am a cynic, by nature, so I tend to read between the lines and I also look for the seemingly unnecessary words...knowing full-well that every single word in legislation costs people money..somewhere.

It will be months... years before we really know how this will work, but deep down, I have a sneaky suspicion that the dems have set in place ( or tried to) a mechanism that will prove that the private method is not working, and then will have the proof that a dingle payer system is the only way to proceed. It may be in a decade, but I think we will get there eventually. This may be the starting place..

Once people HAVE something, it's very hard to take it away, so if enough people have it better, there will be hell to pay if the government tries to ratchet it back.

I hope it is.. time will tell

[Raine]

48. I always ask myself what does the person

have to gain out of the choice they've made ... with politicians it's usually money and or power. It doesn't mean they're on the wrong side but if I have a different opinion from theirs it helps me to know where they're coming from and what might've influence them.

[dave29]

49. It's a sad state of affairs, Kentuck.

Like many have said everyone is conflicted. Look how hard it was to round up 60 votes. On DU, a much larger "body" than the Senate... the opinions are going to be even more varied and entrenched.

For me the bottom line is trying to separate information from disinformation and raw emotion. Everyone is raw right now, which makes it even more difficult.

I will say this though: For me, I do not outright distrust our Senators, or our President as many here have already concluded they must do.

And most importantly -- EVERYONE is angry about this legislation. Left, right, middle. The visceral reactions and deeply held beliefs may not even be related to the healthcare debate itself... rather from old battles un-won or general mistrust of corporations/govt/you name it. The anger from all quarters suggests to me there was real thought and compromise that went into the bill. In my opinion that means it is probably better than most legislation that comes through the Congress.

I am supporting the bill despite my desire for a strong public option (since we can't seem to get to Single Payer). I think it is a good starting place, and those discounting it should consider putting themselves in the shoes of those who the bill will help.

[FrenchieCat]

51. Go ahead and trust those at DU.....

cause they must have read the bill....

or maybe not.

[Wardoc]

52. Don't trust in people, they only disappoint. Trust in yourself. In my view, this bill is garbage.

You'll have to reach your own conclusion. But I will tell you, if you only end up supporting it for the party's sake then what has it really done for you? At that point, we might as well dump politics and just find a sports team.

[cali]

53. I'm not torn. It's easy to be an armchair "expert" on the Senate

or anything else. It's a fuck of a lot harder to be a progressive Senator and make tough choices.

[Hannah Bell]

54. The Senate (theoretically) works for the "armchair experts" you deride.

It's called democracy, cali.

[cali]

58. lol. is that the best you can do, dear?

[Hannah Bell]

63. better than your derision for citizens, dear.

[mmonk]

55. Nobody will hold it against you no matter which you decide to support.

[malaise]

56. Excellent post

:hi:

[elocs]

59. If you do not have all the answers you should seriously question why you are on DU

where so many believe they know more than anyone else. The Pope should be so infallible. Actually life on this planet would be much better if it were run by a panel of DUers, the ones who are convinced they are unquestionably always correct about all things.

[dave29]

61. You are wrong about this

The pope posts at DU.

[elocs]

62. Really? What, what's his username?

:bounce: