The Lady and the Snake

[WilliamPitt]

I've been thinking a lot lately about the old story of the Lady and the Snake. One day, so the story goes, a lady was walking down the road when she came across an injured snake. The lady picked up the snake, brought it home, and nursed it back to health. Over time, the lady and the snake became the best of friends. One day, the lady was in her garden with the snake, when the snake lunged forward suddenly and bit her in the throat. As the lady lay dying, she looked bat the snake and said, "Why did you kill me? I was your friend! I took care of you!" The snake looked at her and said, "Lady, you knew I was a snake when you picked me up."

This is how I'm feeling about the President of the United States these days.

Example: in a recent Washington Post interview, Mr. Obama ran off a long list of accomplishments he had achieved during his first year in office, and cited the (maybe)-soon-to-be-passed health care "reform" legislation as the most significant. When asked about the strong negative reaction coming from the base of the Democratic party over the removal of any form of public option, Mr. Obama said, "I didn't campaign on the public option."

Rilly?

Oh, rilly?

Nah, not rilly. This was the Obama campaign's line on health care and the public option, way back in the campaign day: "My plan builds on and improves our current insurance system, which most Americans continue to rely upon, and creates a new public health plan for those currently without coverage. Under my plan, Americans will be able to choose to maintain their current coverage if they choose to. For those without health insurance I will establish a new public insurance program, and provide subsides to afford care for those who need them."

The good folks over at DailyKos took the time to further rebut the president's fairly astonishing assertion. To wit:

* In the 2008 Obama-Biden health care plan on the campaign's website, candidate Obama promised that "any American will have the opportunity to enroll in new public plan."

* During a speech at the American Medical Association, President Obama told thousands of doctors that one of the plans included in the new health insurance exchanges "needs to be a public option that will give people a broader range of choices and inject competition into the health care market." (6/15/09)

* While speaking to the nation during his weekly address, the President said that "any plan" he signs "must include...a public option." (7/17/09)

* During a conference call with progressive bloggers, the President said he continues "to believe that a robust public option would be the best way to go." (7/20/09)

* Obama told NBC's David Gregory that a public option "should be a part of this," while rebuking claims that the plan was "dead." (9/20/09)

Mr. President, please don't hiss in my ear and tell me you're not a snake. The base you and your chief of staff are so dismissive of could have probably tolerated an admission of failure on your part regarding the death of the public option. We tried, you could have said, but it was a bridge too far. We wanted it, but couldn't get it. You could have mitigated the insult further by saying, oh, maybe one single word about the GOP obstructionists and their Lieberman lackey who went out of their way to blow the whole process up.

But instead, you went after Dr. Howard Dean for criticizing your rank failures, a man who is above reproach on the subject of health care. You went after Dean instead of Lieberman and the GOP, and as an added twist of the knife, you sat there with a Washington Post reporter and lied with your bare face hanging all the way out about never having campaigned on the necessity of the public option.

Now, I am not a radical. Never have been, never pretended to be. Back in 2002, I got painted as a radical by elements on the Right for calling the Bush administration's WMD-in-Iraq claims into question, and for refusing to line up behind George and the Patriotism Police after 9/11. In the intervening years, I've been tagged as a socialist, a communist, and comically, a fascist by those same elements for resisting the disastrous policies of the previous administration.

But I'm no radical. I'm even willing to swallow this mess of a health care bill because it's a starting point, and in several respects, a significant improvement over the current situation. It sells out women with Nelson's abhorrent abortion amendment, and it may not even be constitutional at the end of the day, but the serious problems within the bill can and must be fixed in the future. I'm also a political pragmatist; I very much want to keep the Bushian far-right yahoos out of power next year and in 2012, not out of love for Obama and the Democrats, but out of simple fear. I know what the GOP is today, and I'll swallow any number of jagged little pills to keep all that from happening again.

But I really don't like getting lied to, especially after everything this country has been through, after everything that was done by millions of Americans to clean house and get this ship of state back to some semblance of stability. Obviously, a politician telling a lie is not big news - my personal theory, based on vast personal experience, is that if you've heard of a politician, odds are that person is a creep you wouldn't want to be in the same room with - but Obama's public option canard was exceptionally rank.

I'm no radical. I just believe with all my heart in the idea that is America, an idea that has been poorly served for the entirety of this thankfully dying decade, an idea that has once again been sold down the river by another lying politician. That idea deserves better, as do we all, and if the Obama administration keeps this despicable behavior up, they are going to find themselves squared off with a legion of newly-radicalized people who will wonder why they ever picked this snake up in the first place.

[Tigermoose]

1. a "legion" of newly radicalized people

These legions only exist in your fantasies. Your disappointment doesn't translate into anything other than circle jerking on the internet.

[PassingFair]

4. Ask DFA how much money they've received in the last couple of weeks.

Progressives stopped "jerking" long enough to
put what little money they have against big pharma
and the insurance companies.

Your kidding yourself.

[WilliamPitt]

5. Money that once went to Obama '08

and helped him out-spend his competition.

Will it happen again?

Circle-jerking indeed. :eyes:

[polpilot]

10. Obama's circle-jerking himself. What goes around cums around.

I think I said that right??

[tavalon]

64. Nope, that specific well is currently dry

But I'm going over to DFA right now to add my pittance to the pile.

[defendandprotect]

103. Voters gave Obama near $1 billion . . . and DU/Skinner solicited at least another $150,000 for him??

[live love laugh]

226. Was Obama campaigning in June/July 2009? He DIDN'T campaign on the PO. nt

[freddie mertz]

23. I gave them quite a bit.

I also unsubscribed from OFA and sent them a nice little note.

The gist: I don't appreciate being lied to.

[tavalon]

67. Thank you for reminding me to unsubscribe from OFA

That was a satisfying little note, even though I know no one will ever read it.

Reason for leaving: I'm leaving because I'm tired of your duplicity. You abandoned your activist base and now we're abandoning you. Buh-bye!

[AllyCat]

92. me too

[chervilant]

186. Me, three...

.

[tbyg52]

102. That's exactly what I did.

Gave to DFA and unsubscribed from OFA. The unsubscribe didn't work, either.

[freddie mertz]

143. I am still getting some OFA e-mails, but not as many.

Maybe the holiday rush of disgruntled unsubscribers has them backed up.

[tbyg52]

174. You're probably right about that.

I would say "well, maybe they will get the message," but I know perfectly well they are only listening to the *really* big money. Not that that makes them any different from most of our "representatives."

[wolfgangmo]

150. Consider giving to the Wellstone Institute

They train PROGRESSIVE candidates, campaign managers/workers, and community activists. I've attended their training and it is VERY good.

They are run by donation, are staffed by the friends and former staffers of the late Paul Wellstone and his political progressive machine. I give money to them all the time and they have never lied yet.

Unlike a certain smooth talking, do nothing, lie his ass off, corporate toady like our current POTAS (disclaimer - I never voted for him and didn't like him as a candidate - I guess you can fool most of the people most of the time 'cause he is prez)

[sabrina 1]

159. Didn't know about that. Thanks, that's a great idea.

It answers a lot of questions I've had about how to get real progressive candidates to run for office. Paul Wellstone was a man of principles, a very rare commodity in DC.

I think it would be a good idea to write an OP about what they are doing. And encourage people to donate to them.

Will look for a link and support them instead of the DNC from now on.

[snagglepuss]

216. Good idea. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Great point

DFA's numbers are indeed impressive, both membership numbers and donations.

And DFA does awesome campaign training.

Cheers for the Democratic wing of the Democratic party!!

[katkat]

95. I donated to DFA too, and re-signed up for their emails.

Thank goodness the Deans kept DFA going.

[proud2BlibKansan]

156. I can't help but wonder

how many of these Democrats bashing Dr. Dean will be benefiting from DFA training?

[ima_sinnic]

12. Rahm, don't take us for granted--we now live to see you crushed

I and a growing army of others no longer feel we must "save the country from Palin," since in this one-party system, Palin is simply another head--a stupider, more ridiculous one--of the many-headed hydra snake that is now your system. We're well aware of the latest insults and the benign neglect of the corporate stooges, and our memories are long. "Once bitten twice shy" has a particularly poignant meaning in this case, wouldn't you say?

I know I also speak for millions when I say, DFA, this contribution of $25 that formerly would have gone to Obama or someone of his ilk (some unprincipled "democrat") is for you, with more to come. In fact, I might even commit to monthly contributions now.

For me, Yes We Can now means, Yes We Can crush the snake, so kindly take your astroturfing smugness and shove it.

[Individualist]

37. Hear, hear!

[tavalon]

68. I call Rahm "Our Turdblossom"

But honestly, I wish our tent wasn't so big as to include his ilk.

[Ken Burch]

84. Yeah. Why would ANYBODY want a Turd in their tent?

n/t.

[amborin]

231. +10

[quakerboy]

56. Then why bother trying to rebuke Dean?

Why bother trying to put the lipstick on this snake? Because they know better than you just how badly the lie could end up hurting them.

[Skittles]

59. stay tuned

[tavalon]

63. Oh rilly?

You would be very wrong on that. After we finish with our little bout of horizontal violence (and we will), we are going to be a force to be reckoned with. A force that no longer believes in a messiah or rather, have figured out that we are the messiahs we've been waiting for.

[EFerrari]

176. Think again.

[chervilant]

185. hmm...

Tell that to the growing number of progressives who are increasingly dismayed by Obama's deceit...

[KittyWampus]

2. Well, that sounds fair. Not enough drama, though. No caps or excessive punctuation.

No threats to leave the party. No hurled epithets.

Hardly GD material.

[Liberation Angel]

43. Its not really that fair. Or accurate.

The OP is really the pot calling the kettle black, i.e. there is a neat twisting of language to make the facts asserted seem true when in fact they are not quite what he said.

[quakerboy]

57. So put the quotes in context

Back up your assertion.

[msongs]

3. it's over...for now. conservatives prevail, subject to future changes nt

[avaistheone1]

6. ..

[jus_the_facts]

7. All politicians are the proverbial snakes...and always in hindsight does the lesson get learned...

....and then is it any wonder why people decide not to take part in this charade anymore? :think:

[defendandprotect]

104. ALL corporate pre-BRIBED and pre-OWNED politicians are snakes . . .

and that includes the corporate DLC poisonous agenda --

[avaistheone1]

8. Here's the video clip of Obama committing to the public option.

precisely at 4:33

http://bluemassgroup.com/diary/18138/must-include-a-public-option

[Liberation Angel]

45. The OP Claims he LIED DURING the campaign. This was in June/July 2009

The OP's "truth" is as wrong as he claims Obama is.

[katkat]

96. Liberation Angel - Obama lied

His campaign website included the public option.

[defendandprotect]

105. OK . . . Obama lied in June and July 2009 . . .!!!!

How desperate are you to delude yourself?

[Zhade]

197. False. Now you're the one who's lying.

NT!

[depakid]

9. I recall Obama exhorting universal health care no less than three times at his first huge rally

in Portland- to thundering applause.

Now, I knew this was what Aussies call "porkie." I'd read the competing plans well before this- and while I passed it off one of those enthusiasm of the moment deals- I also knew that he was raising people's expectations far higher than could be delivered.

Disappointment would inevitably follow.

[Liberation Angel]

44. He RAN on Universal Health Care NOT "The Public Option"

I recall he wanted to fund this as single payer or universal insurance.

I thinlk the OP has his facts wrong and his conclusions are woefully supportive of the republican talking points --- that is, calling Obama a LIAR and a SNAKE s JUST what the Republicans want the socalled left to shriek hysterically to help the rethugs and help kill ANY reform or progress.

You are right, Depakid

The OP is wrong.

[tavalon]

70. While this is obviously not one of his published pieces,

Will generally works hard to get his facts straight, being that he is a writer by trade. Since you are saying they are wrong, how about you just get us some links to corroborate your assertions?

[Liberation Angel]

119. I can't prove a negative. The OP jumped the gun and got his facts wrong...

or at least they are sadly insufficient. They certainly do not establish that Obama lied. Obama campaigned on universal health care and NOT "the public option".

It is clear he accepted the public option as a later compromise and came out in suport of it in the summer AFTER the campaign and the inauguration. AFTER not During as the OP claims Obama has lied about.

But maybe I protest too much. Maybe not.

I LIKE the snake story. It has legs. It is a good meme for the right to use against us though.

Which is why I am making such a stink about it.

Like many snakes this meme may come back to bite ALL of US in the asp.

[chervilant]

187. Oh, ha-ha...

Obama has lied about a good many things. Acknowledging this does not mean that I am rejecting the democratic party platform. Acknowledging this primarily means that I recognize that the Corporate Megalomaniacs who have usurped our nation have a great deal more control over the Body Politic than I had realized. And, if we want to have a snowball's chance of electing a PRESIDENT in 2012, we have to destroy THAT particular snake post haste.

[Zhade]

198. No, the OP is not wrong. You are. And you know it, which means you're lying.

Obama lied when he said he never ran on the PO. It's a demonstrable, undeniable fact backed up with video evidence.

[freddie mertz]

145. Lawrence O'Donnell had all the campaign references to the PO in aline last night.

Including the posting on Obama's campaign website.

There can be no doubt that Obama's current excuse that he did not campaign on the PO is not only lame and insulting as hell, but it an outright lie as well.

He should retract the statement, and if he does not, he has no integrity whatsoever.

[snagglepuss]

215. +1

[State the Obvious]

11. Slight variation of Aesop's fable, The Scorpion and the Frog

Why did you do it?

"It's just my nature."

http://www.aesopfables.com/cgi/aesop1.cgi?4&TheScorpionandtheFrog

[aquart]

137. Thank you. I was going to say "scorpion."

Lotta different snakes with different natures.

[joeybee12]

13. That's it...Obama, stop acting like we're stupid...

...we know what you said, we know how things work in Washington...stop acting as if we'll swallow anything you say.

[ima_sinnic]

14. Will, I've never forgotten the influence of "Blood Money" and "Of Gods and Mortals and Empire"

in Feb. 2003, my first exposure to the hideous plans of the neocons--and these had a huge effect on anyone with whom I shared them--I was so inspired, I hosted a web site for the next 2-1/2 years devoted to exposing the snakes, up until the Katrina debacle, when I retreated exhausted from the vastness of the evil.

I see the army of sycophantic astroturfers chipping away as usual, but if I could rec a million times, I would. Then as now you are so needed, and so appreciated.

:yourock:

[jonnyblitz]

15. k & R nt

[Vidar]

16. Thanks for the documentation of Obama's lies on the subject.

[Liberation Angel]

46. Bulls*t. The OP has it wrong. Obama wanted UNIVERSAL CARE NOT a "public option"

Politics is tricky.

Whom does calling Obama a liar and a snake serve?

[pundaint]

54. It serves Truth. We must re-establish Truth in order pull ourselves out of the

madness into which America has descended. We'll know it's working if Shame ever reappears.

[quakerboy]

71. I dunno who it serves anymore, but you should read what obama actually said before opining about it.

From the text of his AMA speach, 6/15/09

"If you don't like your health coverage or don't have any insurance, you will have a chance to take part in what we're calling a Health Insurance Exchange. This Exchange will allow you to one-stop shop for a health care plan, compare benefits and prices, and choose a plan that's best for you and your family – just as federal employees can do, from a postal worker to a Member of Congress. You will have your choice of a number of plans that offer a few different packages, but every plan would offer an affordable, basic package. And one of these options needs to be a public option that will give people a broader range of choices and inject competition into the health care market so that force waste out of the system and keep the insurance companies honest.

Now, I know there's some concern about a public option. In particular, I understand that you are concerned that today's Medicare rates will be applied broadly in a way that means our cost savings are coming off your backs. These are legitimate concerns, but ones, I believe, that can be overcome. As I stated earlier, the reforms we propose are to reward best practices, focus on patient care, not the current piece-work reimbursement. What we seek is more stability and a health care system on a sound financial footing. And these reforms need to take place regardless of what happens with a public option. With reform, we will ensure that you are being reimbursed in a thoughtful way tied to patient outcomes instead of relying on yearly negotiations about the Sustainable Growth Rate formula that's based on politics and the state of the federal budget in any given year. The alternative is a world where health care costs grow at an unsustainable rate, threatening your reimbursements and the stability of our health care system."

[Liberation Angel]

118. The OP says Obama LIED about the campaign but this quote is after the inauguration

This is what I mean by twisting the truth.

The OP claims Obama lied saying he didn't campaign on the public option.

This quote you use is 6 months AFTER the inauguration.

THAT is my whole point.

Obama did not lie about his campaign (not based on this quote or any other I have yet seen).

I have not sen ONE quote where he used the term "public option" during his camapign.

That is why the OP is disingenuous and all the jumping on the haters, Obama's a liar and a snake, bandwagon pisses me off so much.

It is hate speech justified with a fabrication (again insofar as what has been offered as fact - which is almost nothing but spin and mirrors)

Unseemly.
Hateful.

Counterproductive.

[freddie mertz]

146. Here is the evidence to refute YOUR claim.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x416707

You need to apologize now.

[quakerboy]

180. How about a mandate?

I am no authority on public option talk before the election, though the OP states that it was on then Senator Obama's presidential campaign website.

What I do recall quite clearly was him nailing Hillary on mandates, stating that he was against them. It is my understanding he said it several times, but I remember it from the debate. Thats campaigning on something, and then going against what he promised us.



Going in another direction, and at the risk of diverting the discussion, in my mind the mandate is tied at the hip to a public option. I always understood that was the debate. We were getting screwed on a single payer system, but we just didn't have the votes for it. A PO was the next best thing, but it needed a mandate to work properly. That's why we were ever even considering a mandate. Insurance companies have already made it quite obvious that they don't need a mandate to be successful businesses.

[tavalon]

74. So what you're saying is that it depends on what the definition of "is" is?

Come on, if Obama campaigned on Universal Care (he did not, alas), then he's an incredibly venomous snake instead of your garden variety poisonous snake. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever.

On edit: Obama lied. That would be why we happen to be calling him a liar right now. He lied ergo he's a liar. Think it through, Einstein.

[Liberation Angel]

122. He did in fact campaign on universal health care

If you had any evidence to support your position I would consider it.

Obama did NOT lie and no proof he did has been offered.

Even Einstein, as smart as he was, needed proof.

You haven't proven it. You haven't even got any evidence of it.

I am not saying there ISN'T some clip of Obama MAYBE using the term "public option" as his campaign platform. But I haven't seen it.

Calling Obama a liar on this is insidious, especially when the facts are fudged to make sh*t up about Obama. That is just low.

There is plenty to criticize Obam for. Making sh*t up is just Rovian republicanism and rightist spin.

[freddie mertz]

147. Here is the evidence to refute YOUR claim, again.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x416707

[tavalon]

188. It serves the truth

and she is a hard taskmaster.

[bigwillq]

17. Good post.

:thumbsup: K and R

[AzDar]

18. K & R

:kick:

[HuckleB]

19. I agree about the lying, but then again, what president hasn't lied?

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200701/cannon-lying

And how could we look at the Clinton years as being fine and ok, during the Bush years, but suddenly find Obama to be despicable?

Something isn't meshing here.

[Fire1]

21. Ya think? n/t

[shadowknows69]

24. Don't know about you, but I've never been ok with any President lying to us.

Is our bar really so low in this country that "Well they all do it" is acceptable?

[HuckleB]

26. Read the article in The Atlantic.

And also remember that they are human beings. There is no superhuman.

[Zhade]

199. Maybe you can trust a proven willful liar, but I can't.

I know better. Liars, once having lied, will do so again.

If you and I can be honest, there's no excuse for obama's decision to lie to us. It doesn't take a superhuman to NOT FUCKING LIE.

[defendandprotect]

106. Agree . . . and usually we find out too late -- and then again Congress fails to

demand accountability --

Is our bar really so low in this country that "Well they all do it" is acceptable?


That was a comment also circulated widely during the Nixon scandals/Watergate.

They are still trying to turn that into a "third rate burgulary" --

Indeed, Watergate was a crime wave of every type --

[pnwmom]

28. President Jimmy Carter was honest about his failures. And look where that got him. n/t

[HuckleB]

30. Even Jimmy lied, once in a while.

Check the piece I linked to above from The Atlantic.

[tavalon]

75. Actually, I've been commenting on how very Clintonian this current

administration is turning out to be. I was pretty disenchanted with the Clinton administration after a while. Not this quickly, mind you. I'm astonished at the hubris coming out of this administration but it is very much a similar hubris to the Clinton administration.

[katkat]

97. tavalon

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[noiretextatique]

154. recommend eom

[treestar]

160. It's not really a lie, so much as that he was not able to get what he

thought he would.

[Zhade]

200. No, it's been proven to be a flat-out lie. He ran on the PO, now says he didn't.

That's an undeniable lie.

[CrispyQ]

20. An excellent commentary.

I've never been an Obama fan & only warmed up to him marginally, when I let myself be somewhat swayed by the Hope & Change meme. The luster is completely gone, now. I had to laugh, when I read a DUer's confession last week, that she mutes the TV when Obama comes on, just like she did with boosh. Me too! His pretty speeches have lost their appeal. Even though I pegged him for just another politician, the marginalization of the left & this lie, are disturbing & disappointing.

[Cleita]

22. I'm disappointed too, but then I was never a cheerleader for either Obama

or Hillary. However, I was hoping for a glimmer of integrity.

[tavalon]

76. Yeah, candidate Obama did seem to have some integrity

Oops, I guess it was just politics as usual.

[Thickasabrick]

25. I didn't know Obama was a snake to begin with so the story doesn't

work for me. I was a huge fan and thought this was the first honest politician I would vote for in my lifetime. If I had known he was a snake, I would not have voted for him or "picked him up".

If I had known then, what I know now, I think I would have backed someone else in the primaries who had their warts and all, but I knew about them and could choose between the lessor of two evils.

I feel somewhat hoodwinked.

[pnwmom]

27. If there's one thing we should have learned from what Jimmy Carter went through,

it's that it doesn't help for a politician to admit defeat -- even a small defeat. You want Obama to be honest like Jimmy Carter? Then he'll probably end up out of a job -- like Jimmy Carter.

Better, for the sake of future endeavors, to put a happy face on the health care bill and remain in a position to try to fix it over the next 7 years.

[Hatchling]

29. His lie may put him out of a job. nt

[HuckleB]

31. Got BS drama?

[Hatchling]

38. Got BS denial?

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. How about calling it a work in progress

instead of a victory?

[Lorien]

79. What makes you think that this isn't EXACTLY the bill Obama wanted?

And what makes you think that he'll run for another term? He's already said "The people will decide if I run", not "The people will decide if I should have a second term."

[Zhade]

201. You WANT our leaders to lie to us?

Is that how fucked up this country is, that otherwise decent people counsel LYING "for the greater good"?

Once the lies start, how can you be sure they'll ever stop?

[madokie]

32. You too

I like my President just fine and I knew when I voted for him that he is but one person in the midst of 535 others and can realistically only do so much.

-1

[katkat]

98. not 1 in 535

The 535 make up one branch of government. Obama is the second branch. In this case 1=535.

Those of us who remember Presidents with guts and principles know this.

[madokie]

100. one in the midst of 535

I very well know how the government works and don't need a lesson from you, got that, good

[Zhade]

202. You clearly need a lesson in logic, since yours utterly fails.

Fact: he lied to us.

Fact: he could, and likely will, lie to us again.

[sellitman]

35. Bravo!

You write like I feel.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. Obama is a professional politician.

“Now, the man on the stand he wants my vote,
He's a-runnin' for office on the ballot note.
He's out there preachin' in front of the steeple,
Tellin' me he loves all kinds-a people.
(He's eatin' bagels
He's eatin' pizza
He's eatin' chitlins
He's eatin' bullshit!)”

Bob Dylan

[Usrename]

40. I think he always saw the public option as a means to an end.

The way I always interpreted what he was saying, the public option was never an end in itself, to him it was just a method of accomplishing that end. This way that I have of interpreting his views may be at odds with those folks who see the public option as being the ultimate objective.

There are plenty of issues I have with Obama, but this isn't really one of them.

[ddeclue]

41. Bravo!!! Once again we are not worthy!!!

Excellent excellent piece... now if we could only get the politicians to give a damn!

[Liberation Angel]

42. You are Calling Obama a Snake? Really? QUI Bono?

First - you note ONE instance from the Obama Biden website that mentions "a new public plan"in 2008 . Arguably the subsidies for the poor and public/community health centers in the bill the senate passed meets this criteria.

You also site his discussion (undated) of a "public insurance" plan or public health plan which will be subsidized.

ALL the other quotes are NOT from the campaign but subesequent to his inauguration while HE HAS BEEN FIGHTING FOR THE PUBLIC OPTION!!!


How in the F*CK you twist and spin this around to clim Obama is a LIAR and a SNAKE because he made a statement with respect to "the public option" (when his language itself is broader and more inclusive of other options) is really beyond me and sounds like EXACTLY what the REPUBLICANS want us to scream and shriek about.

Obama is parsing words a little cynically but this is hardly about him being a murderous snake and an intentional liar as you assert he is with this OP.

He has TRIED to get the Public Option passed and he probably intentionally avoided labelling his proposals duing the campaign BECAUSE he PROBABLY would have supported SINGLE PAYER if Congress had the integrity to pass that.

You are blaming Obama and mincing words or intentions when the PROBLEM right now is that the REPUBLICANS want the left and progressives to OPPOSE the PROGRESS that is in even the Senate Bill.

Sometimes Obama is much smarter than we give him credit for. I did not see him, at least in your citations from during the election, use the term "PUBLIC OPTION" as a campaign platform.

So if he did not campaign on that then how is he a liar on that?

In fact which political person, so creepy, is LYING?

Just asking.

[Skittles]

60. lol

you must be shaped like a pretzel by now

[tavalon]

77. Wow, Will really hit a nerve with you, didn't he?

You've posted back to him how many times now?

[Liberation Angel]

123. Calling Obama a liar withour proof and a snake is dangerous to progressivism

he needed to be reminded that the truth matters

he is a damn good and influential writer.

But. like Obama, he ain't perfect.

Calling Obama a liar and a snake with false facts and arguments really peeves me.

[Zhade]

203. Um, the proof is readily available for people who aren't practicing willful denial.

Only the delusional can call undeniable video evidence that proves he lied "false".

Get therapy. Your separation from reality will cause you a lot of grief in your life.

[ima_sinnic]

86. ok, how about his blatant LIE that "everybody" would "have a (televised!) seat at the table"?

please spin this until you turn into a pool of melted butter and ooze away:

"I'm going to have all the negotiations around a big table. We'll have doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. Insurance companies, drug companies -- they'll get a seat at the table, they just won't be able to buy every chair. But what we will do is, we'll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies. And so, that approach, I think is what is going to allow people to stay involved in this process." --Town hall meeting on Aug. 21, 2008, in Chester, Va.

Ever hear of the Baucus 13? For some, the "seat at the table" was in a jail cell. And I must have missed the coverage of "the negotiations" on C-SPAN--do you happen to have the link? Because I thought he handed Baucus the job of "dealing with it" and didn't say shit when Baucus closed and locked the door on his ass-kissing love-fest with the insurance companies. Having the "negotiations" behind closed doors made it a little, er, difficult for people "to stay involved in this process," didn't it? I'm sure the example of doctors and nurses being led away really inspired people to "be involved." What was your "involvement"?

since crickets are easily available at Petco for snake food, I won't bother checking back for any here.

[defendandprotect]

107. Putting Baucus in charge of health care was like putting Monsanto in charge of food -- !!!

[ima_sinnic]

115. yes, how come none of the apologists defend this outrage?

I guess they haven't been handed their scripts yet about it. They seem to hope that people will forget about it, I guess.

I plan to make sure that NOBODY "forgets about it" and will soon be starting a new OP asking why this lie is never discussed. I think I might also ask Rachel Maddow and Keith Olbermann to remind people of it.


http://www.democracynow.org/2009/5/13/baucus_raucus_caucus_doctors_nurses_and

http://mtlowdown.blogspot.com/2009/07/baucus-13-settle-disruption-of-congress.html
sentenced to 40 hours of community service!
when the hell is greed-head Max Baucus (D-AHIP*) going to get around to doing even a tiny bit of "community service"?



*AHIP = America's Health Insurance Plans, a lobbyist group for the health insurance industry--the ones who were "seated at the table" with Baucus.

[defendandprotect]

171. Think they're busy trying to put out all the fires ....

Obama also promised that a variety of people would be "at the table" --

where the hell is that table in Congress that we never seem to get our issues onto????

:)


Happy Winter Solstice -- Nature's New Year!!

[ima_sinnic]

172. thank goodness the days are getting longer now . . .

we're on the up & up :)

[Liberation Angel]

133. OK Cynic: answer me this...

Baucus met with members of the Baucus 13

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x60847

They were "involved in the process"

And Baucus is an ass, but it was NOT Obama's call to put him where he was.

As for the CSpan thing - that, again, is just annoying rhetoric. Obama said he'd get negotiations on CSpan and there were hearings on cspan. i don't know whether you can say with any credibility that a p
I believe Obama would have supported single payer if it were viable in this Congress. It really isn't. But Krugman's analysis says the plan as is is pretty close to an equivalent in many ways (not all, but many_)

[ima_sinnic]

161. Baucus met with B13 AFTER the fact, after he looked like a giant a-hole

why is televised hearings with a DIVERSE panel of EVERYBODY "annoying rhetoric"? You don't mind being told something that you know means nothing, that is just "annoying rhetoric"?

Single payer was NOT given any chance at all. Any "consideration" was token, a showboating kind of thing that signified nothing. The idea of how it could work, and why so many in the medical profession favor it, was not conveyed to the American people.

It was Obama's call to say things he had no intention of implementing. He's the goddam president of the United States--you don't think his staff could have arranged a "White House Conference on Health Care Reform" complete with C-SPAN and all kinds of circus hoopla so the people really WOULD get to hear all sides regardless of ability to pay for the "seats at the table"?

And I don't want to hear about if it was "viable in this Congress." We'll have no idea WHAT would have been viable, or how even SOME aspects of single payer could have been incorporated into the insurance profit protection act. It will always be "Lieberman's fault" and "Nelson's fault" no matter what--Obama did "everything he could" to "include everyone"--yeah, um hm, right.

By the way, I think my bill for an insurance policy alone is going to be around $400/mo (never mind what other unspecified and unregulated co-pays and deductibles and other "fees" I'm going to have to pay). I'm close to 400% of "poverty line" for a single person (I am going by gross income here, not net income--a minor detail nobody's clarified about these "calculations" afaik), so I won't qualify for subsidies--do you happen to know how much of that $400 is going to the poor widdle insurance co CEO's bonus fund? I really wouldn't want him or her to run short. I support a poor family in Jamaica for about that amount, but I guess the CEO is in more desperate need than they are. After all, "bonuses" in the high 9 figures are only fair for all the "good" these professional parasites contribute to society. Maybe I'll even make a voluntary extra charitable contribution to the fund, their work is so "beneficial."

[snagglepuss]

218. Spot on. nt

[snagglepuss]

217. This should be a separate thread. Nothing could have been further from

the truth:(

[mmonk]

47. Recommended.

And we are being deceived or deception has been attempted. But we remember.

[Mind_your_head]

48. The 'other side of the coin' is that a truthful/honest president will find him/herself dead most

likely.

The JFK murder still haunts this nation, unresolved. All the while "MAGIC BULLET" Spector is a powerful force on capital hill.....UNFORTUNATELY!

on edit: maybe people like Spector are the enemy of 'the regular people and their interests?" :shrug: :think:

[grahamhgreen]

51. Many Americans are willing to take grave risks everyday to do the right thing

Firemen, soldiers, police, I expect no less of our cammander in chief

[Zhade]

204. HEAR HEAR

NT!

[David Zephyr]

49. I'm glad I read this in time to give it the 63rd rec. I am passing this along to my e-mail list.

Obama resorting to lying (public option, drugs from Canada) and having his henchmen attack Howard Dean who led the national party to achieving its majorities in the Senate and House..well, it is disconcerting at best and alarming at worst.

Obama clearly lied. And he's the loser.

He has lost credibility. What he says, what he promises from now on will be distrusted. It may be true or it may not be.

Trust? It's gone.

[Liberation Angel]

124. Zephyr - do NOT pass along a lie about Obama

really: read the OP carefully and see my posts in this thread.

Obama DID NOT CAMPAIGN on the public option. He capaigned on universal health care/coverage.

The OP is just nifty but false spin.

Really.

Read it again and then pass THAT news to your elist.

[Zhade]

205. Yes, he did. Stop lying.

NT!

[Liberation Angel]

50. The OP is as much of a fabrication (factually) as anything claimed against Obama

Obama ran on universal health care and has been lobbying SINCE HIS INAUGURATION for what would pass, including the public option. He wanted a PUBLIC HEALTH OR PUBLIC INSURANCE plan and was NOT running on a "Public option"

SO

The OP has it WRONG and

the people drooling over this , calling Obama a SNAKE and a LIAR and reccing it and passing it along are

SERVING ONLY THE INTERESTS OF THE RIGHT WING WHO WANT TO DEFEAT THIS BILL OR ANY CHANGE OF THE STATUS QUO.

WHO is telling the truth here and whom does it serve?

[dreamnightwind]

58. I disagree

I've seen you make this assertion a couple of times now, and it's not how I remember it.

He didn't run on universal health care, he was opposed to mandates and therefore admitted that his plan would cover most people but it would not be universal.

And I don't understand the distinction you're making between a "public health or public insurance plan" and a "public option". If you're impying that Obama was running on a universal single payer public plan, that's certainly not correct. If it's not universal and it's not single payer, but there's a public component, isn't that pretty much what a public option is? If I'm misunderstanding this (quite possible), please correct me, I just don't see it.

And I reject the argument that calling Obama on a lie (which I believe it clearly is) only serves the interests of the right wing. It's up to Obama to govern well, not up to us to whitewash his B.S. In fact, if we've elected someone who's not being honest about his prior committments and about his allegiances in general (back-stabbing the left every chance he gets), it's our obligation to call him on it, that's how such practices are kept in check, and that's how the left maintains legitimacy.

[Liberation Angel]

61. I do not have the links handy BUT he USED the term universal care and did NOT use Public option

it is a fine distinction but it makes a difference as to whether the OP misrepresented the facts.

If you call Obama a snake and a liar and the basis of the claim is that he used language that he did not in fact use, then there is no foundation for calling him a liar or making hay with the quote (which he clarified the next day in a PBS interview)

It is like the attacks on Gore regarding the internet invention claim etc etc: it is s spin based on a lie which HELPS republicans and which republicans encourage to divide us...

[tavalon]

80. Get the links handy

You've written enough posts here to know that links are expected. Provide them or STFU.

[dreamnightwind]

89. So what?

You appear to be someone with an agenda. You may be able to parse Obama's statements down to some specific hair-splitting point where you can claim that the OP was misrepresenting the facts. It clearly isn't any real misrepresentation, if anything at all it's just a matter of exact representation of Obama's pre-election statements vs. the actual substance of those statements, and I'm not conceding that, I still think the OP is accurate.

Do you deny that he said, in some form, that people who felt they were getting ripped off by private insurance would have the option of purchasing insurance from a public plan? Because I don't think there's any way that can be denied. And if not, claiming the OP misrepresented the facts is disingenuous.

What helps Republicans is when Obama claims he never supported (ok, "campaigned on") something that everyone knows he did. Parse it all you want, but that's the bottom line, and it should be. It not only helps Republicans, but it enrages those of us who are fed up with a Democratic party that more and more represents the same interests as the Republican party, although in somewhat different ways and perhaps to different degrees. A lot of us are ready to find an alternative for the primaries, or launch a 3rd party attack from the left, or even from a left-right non-corporate coalition. And if Obama doesn't find his inner compass and embrace the needs of those that put him in office (I'm talking about the masses that voted for him, not the corporations that donated to his campaign) we'll sure as hell defect.

So, unless you're a shameless corporate Dem shill I think your energy would be better spent helping us pressure Obama from the left, than attacking good people like William Rivers Pitt for doing so.

[snagglepuss]

219. Hear. Hear.

:applause:

[Morning Dew]

142. If I recall correctly, the term "public option" didn't show up until after the election.

I vaguely remember posts here along the lines of "public option. WTF?"


ETA - didn't recall completely correctly, i guess, but "public option" wasn't as common a term prior to the currwent health care insurance debacle.

[snagglepuss]

221. See post # 89

"Do you deny that he (Obama) said, in some form, that people who felt they were getting ripped off by private insurance would have the option of purchasing insurance from a public plan? Because I don't think there's any way that can be denied. And if not, claiming the OP misrepresented the facts is disingenuous."

[tavalon]

78. The "OP" that you keep referring to is

William Rivers Pitt. Try googling him. I'm not saying he's unimpeachable because he's famous but he IS good at what he does. And, he's hardly a right wing shill.

[Jamastiene]

85. Exactly.

I can't believe someone would claim he is a right wing shill. :crazy:

[defendandprotect]

108. That poster will . . .

[Liberation Angel]

117. No I don't. For the most part i applaud the OP's writing, but on this NO...

It is joining a circular firing squad to call Obama a snake and a liar and is counterproductive imho.

But the fact is that the OP attacks Obama and uses facile and false rguments to support his thesis that Obama is lying. Obama is NOT lying (at least not based on what the OP wrote).

So his rhetoric falls flat.

The wholesale embracing of the notion thaty Obama is a snake and a liar is what is damaging to Obama, to progressives and to prospects for a better future.

I have no problem with holding Obama's feet to the fire on this and many other issues (particularly some of his war policies which I find abhorrent) BUT to claim he is a snake and a liar and then have no facts other than tricky wordsmithing and fabrication, or fudging facts, is no different than what the OP claims Obama is doing.

It is nifty rhetoric and a good story but a false one and it hurts all our causes down the road.

I now the OP's work. I mostly admire it. But not always and when he goofs up someone needs to be brave enough here to call him on it. This OP was virulent, petty and damaging to the left, especilly in terms of keeping us together or what is important: Supporting progressive change in the future.

Obama fought for the public option as ONE option in health care reform. He got much of what he campaigned on but COULD NOT GET universal care. And YES he maybe could or should have tried harder (I wrote an OP back in August lambasting Obama for flying off to Martha's Vineyard for holidays instead of taking that battle to the public). But Obama's got a damn full plate, he needs to vacate sometimes (maybe not then in the heat of the townhall fiascos etc but SOMEtime) and I criticized him severely for taking off from this battle when I felt we needed him most.

But to CLAIM he is lying on this is just wrong. He campaigned on universal health care, the public option being one way maybe to reach that but that was NOT his sole and main plan: it was just one way of getting there. So to say he campaigned on it (or say he is a liar because he says he did not "campaign on the public option") is simply a distortion of the facts.

And to say he is a deadly snake and a liar DOES in fact serve the interests of the extreme right who LOVE comments like this OP. Frankly the rhetoric is much like what I would expect at any hate Obama site. Not here at DU. And NOT with specious arguments lacking any real substantive foundation.

[defendandprotect]

170. You have a great point . . .. as long Obama didn't lie . . . . OOPS!!

[Liberation Angel]

134. I never said that...but calling Obama and SNAKE and a LIAR SOUNDS like

what a right wing shill would say...

I want him to get his facts right and spin them honestly

he's a great wordsmith...

no need for him to make sh*t up which spreads hate against Obama.

Freepers are drooling over this post I imagine.

[David Zephyr]

166. +1

William Pitt is one of the gold standards here at the DU. I may not always agree with him (which is rare), but he is always well researched, and William has won my respect over these last near 9 years and he did it the old fashioned way: he earned it.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberation Angel]

131. His clam that Obama lied is a fabrication, at least based on the facts presented

I have not seen ONE piece of evidence from the campaign saying that Obama's position was for a "Public Option" as it has come to be defined.

Obama supported Universal health care/insurance protection for all Americans.

So, yeah, the OP was fabricating an argument in a dangerous and harmful and deceptive manner.

[Zhade]

206. YOUR claim that it's a fabrication is the lie here.

NT!

[freddie mertz]

148. Not true.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x416707

[bridgit]

52. *The Lady ~in~ The Snake* appeals to me, therefore; as told by Cherokee, Seneca, Hindu...

...and many other people all around the world.

The Little Boy and The Rattlesnake

The little boy was walking down a path and he came across a rattlesnake. The rattlesnake was getting old. He asked, "Please little boy, can you take me to the top of the mountain? I hope to see the sunset one last time before I die." The little boy answered "No Mr. Rattlesnake. If I pick you up, you'll bite me and I'll die." The rattlesnake said, "No, I promise. I won't bite you. Just please take me up to the mountain." The little boy thought about it and finally picked up that rattlesnake and took it close to his chest and carried it up to the top of the mountain.

They sat there and watched the sunset together. It was so beautiful. Then after sunset the rattlesnake turned to the little boy and asked, "Can I go home now? I am tired, and I am old." The little boy picked up the rattlesnake and again took it to his chest and held it tightly and safely. He came all the way down the mountain holding the snake carefully and took it to his home to give him some food and a place to sleep. The next day the rattlesnake turned to the boy and asked, "Please little boy, will you take me back to my home now? It is time for me to leave this world, and I would like to be at my home now." The little boy felt he had been safe all this time and the snake had kept his word, so he would take it home as asked.

He carefully picked up the snake, took it close to his chest, and carried him back to the woods, to his home to die. Just before he laid the rattlesnake down, the rattlesnake turned and bit him in the chest. The little boy cried out and threw the snake upon the ground. "Mr. Snake, why did you do that? Now I will surely die!" The rattlesnake looked up at him and grinned, "You knew what I was when you picked me up."

http://www.indigenouspeople.net/snake.htm

But yeah, I hear you, Pope Willy ;) Still, people need to pay more attention to me I'm sorry but they do and I'm not even on Twitter :cry:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7303507&mesg_id=7304866

[Matariki]

53. Hey, wouldn't it be funny if -

the president and the democrats in congress knew all along that the mandate is unconstitutional. Then after legislation passes with the compromises the insurance industry made in exchange for the mandate - they can say - oh, sorry - we can't actually enforce the mandate. sorry. against the law.

i can dream anyway.

[dave29]

55. It may not be constitutional, but I'll go ahead and support it

:eyes:

Nicely hedged sir!

[tavalon]

62. Ah, that's the ticket!

I really need you around to express my incoherent thoughts. The best I could do was "you did NOT just say that!" I was just plain shocked that the internet savvy Obama would play that Republican game. But then I realized I was mixing up the Obama campaign with the Obama Presidency and they aren't the same animal. At all.

[undeterred]

65. Lyrics: The Snake

THE SNAKE
(Oscar Brown Jr.)

Al Wilson

Also recorded by:
Belle Stars; Oscar Brown Jr.;
The Mint Juleps; Johnny Rivers; Paula West.



On her way to work one morning
Down the path along side the lake
A tender hearted woman saw a poor half frozen snake
His pretty colored skin had been all frosted with the dew
"Poor thing," she cried, "I'll take you in and I'll take care of you"
"Take me in tender woman
Take me in, for heaven's sake
Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake

She wrapped him all cozy in a comforter of silk
And laid him by her fireside with some honey and some milk
She hurried home from work that night and soon as she arrived
She found that pretty snake she'd taken to had bee revived
"Take me in, tender woman
Take me in, for heaven's sake
Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake

She clutched him to her bosom, "You're so beautiful," she cried
"But if I hadn't brought you in by now you might have died"
She stroked his pretty skin again and kissed and held him tight
Instead of saying thanks, the snake gave her a vicious bite
"Take me in, tender woman
Take me in, for heaven's sake
Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake
"I saved you," cried the woman
"And you've bitten me, but why?
You know your bite is poisonous and now I'm going to die"
"Oh shut up, silly woman," said the reptile with a grin
"You knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in
"Take me in, tender woman
Take me in, for heaven's sake
Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake



version II

On her way to work one morning
Down the path along side the lake
A tender hearted woman saw a poor half frozen snake
His pretty colored skin had been all frosted with the dew
"Oh well," she cried, "I'll take you in and I'll take care of you"
"Take me in tender woman
Take me in, for heaven's sake
Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake


Now she wrapped him all cozy in a coverture of silk
And then laid him by the fireside with some honey and some milk
Now she hurried home from work that night as soon as she arrived
She found that pretty snake she'd taken to had been revived
"Take me in, oh tender woman
Take me in, for heaven's sake
Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake


She clutched him to her bosom, "You're so beautiful," she cried
"But if I hadn't brought you in, by now you might have died"
Now she stroked his pretty skin again and then kissed and held him tight
But instead of saying thanks, the snake gave her a vicious bite!
"Take me in, oh tender woman
Take me in for heaven's sake
Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake
"Now I saved you," cried the woman
And you've bit me, even why?
And you know your bite is poisonous and now I'm going to die"
"Ah shut up, silly woman," said that reptile with a grin
“Now you knew darn well I was a snake before you brought me in
Please, take me in, oh tender woman
Take me in, for heaven's sake
Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake, sighed the snake
“Take me in tender woman
“Come on in you pretty snake…
Come on in, yeah, come on in you pretty snake…

http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/t/thesnake.shtml

[AuntPatsy]

66. I am kind of surprised at this but then again, not really, can we at least

put the blame with whom it honestly "lies", now how about taking the time to add another essay style thread, one that points the finger at the true culprits and perhaps offer some valuable suggestions as to how they can be ousted from their current position of power...

have we forgotten who all is writing this bill and whom has a passing interest in certain areas? are we ignoring the facts of the matter that the republicans have from day one attempted and succeeded in some areas to ensure the people become secondary when it has come to adding the terms of this health care bill?

I have to say that I don't agree with the snake story, I am surprised you of all people would find yourself repeating it as if it pertains to a reality..

I had figured you to be one of the more knowledgeable ones when it came to political theater...did you honestly believe those that be would just throw up their arms in defeat and "allow" the new president to do anything he so desired without voicing their displeasure and utilize what they always have to ensure they do not lose what they have worked years to win, persuasion is an interesting aspect of politics, what is used to persuade in one particular case has never to date ever been exposed to we the people...


You have become lost and disillusioned in this one man? Do tell us as to how you thought the first year of President Obama's term would dictate the following three to come?


what ever happend with people investigating the PNAC

[JTFrog]

90. +1

Rec's, attention and pats on the back are rare around here unless you join the trash Obama bandwagon. :shrug:

[urgk]

91. +1 for not joining the bizarre, high schoolish frenzy. (n/t)

[Liberation Angel]

129. Thanks for this

says much that needs to be said

[johnaries]

69. Personally, I like the version with the scorpion and the frog better.

Since in that version they both drown because the scorpion is, after all, a scorpion.

I am reminded of the movie "Primary Colors". I don't know what other people may take away from that film, but my "take-away" was that in the modern American political landscape in order to "do good" and really "make a difference" you have to get elected, first. And the process of getting elected in modern America is a very "dirty" process, and so by definition any politician who is successful and actually gets elected is "dirty" by nature.

Is that the snake of which you speak?

If so, what alternative do we have outside of armed Revolution? And what guarantee do we have that the leader of that revolution would be any better than the "snakes" we currently have? In fact, in order to be successful, wouldn't that revolutionary leader by definition be even more of a snake than our current leaders?

Has the "Great Experiment" failed?

I think not. In fact, I think it has just begun. Which is sad for me, since I am in my Fifties and I am afraid that although I may see the "birth" of a new "Great Experiment" I will not live long enough to see it's fruition. The Ancient Chinese Taoists had a curse - "May you live in interesting times." These times are most interesting, indeed.

Consider this - the most important component of any successful government is information. By extension, if a "Democratic" or even a Democratically-elected Representative Republic (such as ours) is to survive and prosper, then the People must have information. With the Internet, people have more access to information that they never had before.

Before, people only knew what their local Preacher told them. Or the local newspaper. Or their friends and family. Which is what the RW took advantage of.

I'll be honest - I did not support Hillary in the primaries simply because she had way too many ties to corporate entities. I can accuse Obama of nothing but being a little too naive. I like the way he attempted to emulate Lincoln's Cabinet of Adversaries and constantly challenges himself and his ideals to make sure that his decisions are borne of information and not rhetoric.

Isn't that what we elected him for? To make smart, informed decisions rather than arbitrary decisions based on gastrointestinal fluctuations?

[Zhade]

207. We didn't elect him to lie to our faces.

See, we could have voted republican to get that. We chose otherwise.

[shireen]

72. hmmm .... check out the "Obama Plan"

at http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

Under Quality, Affordable Choices
* Offers a public health insurance option to provide the uninsured and those who can’t find affordable coverage with a real choice.

Is that different from the 'Public Option' everyone's talking about?


This is all very confusing. :(

[defendandprotect]

109. "Public Option" = "real choice" . . . seems clear to me . . . !!!

It's intended to be confusing -- !!!

:)

[Liberation Angel]

121. Shireen - the OP says Obama lied about the campaign, this plan is September 2009

My objection is to calling Obama a liar and a snake for saying he did not campaign on the public option.

He CAMPAIGNED on universal health care.

The public option is a compromise he made after his inauguration to get us closer to universal health care because he could not get what he wanted.

To say he is lying when he says he did not campaign on the "public option" is a lie (as far as the evidence provided).

Using a plan he supported in September of 2009 as evidence that he lied during the campaign is just falsehood, or twisted spinning.

[shireen]

151. i could not find the original campaign website

and thought that the link in that new site was content lifted directly from the original campaign website. If it came from the original campaign website, it does show that he campaigned on the public option.

Does anyone have cached copies of the original campaign website that could show if this was written during the campaign?

[shireen]

153. ok, i found it ...

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/index_campaign.php

Make Health Insurance Work for People and Businesses - Not Just Insurance and Drug Companies.
...
Establish a National Health Insurance Exchange with a range of private insurance options as well as a new public plan based on benefits available to members of Congress that will allow individuals and small businesses to buy affordable health coverage.

Sure sounds like a 'public option' to me ....

Edited to add: and just for the record, i would not call him a snake. I like and admire snakes, they're beautiful animals (tho' i am kinda scared of them ...)

[snagglepuss]

222. Good find. It'll be interesting to see how that is spun. nt

[shireen]

73. self-delete

opps ... dupe, deleted .

[JeffR]

81. No, don't think so.

And I sure hope you're wrong.

[Raine]

82. Two BIG thumbs up Will Pitt!!! nt

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Norrin Radd]

83. Nothing wrong with the original intent of "radical," going to the root of something.

[Goldstein1984]

87. Good OP--Look what it generated!

I've watched the campaign videos on YouTube, and I believe Obama had a public option in mind.

It isn't just health care. He's disappointed in other areas, well documented all over DU, as well.

I do believe there may develop a legion of newly-radicalized people. There may be many like me who looked to Obama to end the policies of the Bush/Cheney Error, as well as to repair the damage that's been accumulating since 1980. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a lot in just 11 months, but we don't even seem to be on the right track.

I hope all of the people complaining ABOUT President Obama are also complaining TO President Obama. It isn't fair to hold him accountable in 2012 without letting him hear from us. He works in a system corrupted by power and money, and he may have only temporarily lost touch with the people.

[Liberation Angel]

126. Saying Obama "had a public option "in mind" is NOT the same as CAMPAIGNING on it

and saying he is lying about this is itself a lie (unless one has actual evidence and not rhetorical spin)

The OP is false and damaging drivel without evidence.

[Goldstein1984]

165. Then he should be more careful when he thinks out loud

[DebbieCDC]

169. Jesus Christ quit splitting hairs over word nuances

The cheerleader corps just can't stand the fact that their hero has feet of clay. Deal with it.

[Zhade]

208. Nope. Again, you're lying. It's a proven fact obama campaigned on the PO and lied about doing so.

Your desperate attempts to continue denying the fact of his lie won't change it.

He campaigned on a PO. It's on video. Quoted. ON THE ARCHIVED CAMPAIGN WEBSITE.

He lied. And now you're lying -- to us, or to yourself.

[nofurylike]

229. thank you again for your efforts, Liberation Angel. you are correct.

what so many call a lie is actually an ambiguity they have latched onto with glee. i notice below someone trying to make you wrong by saying you are "splitting hairs" when you are right, while those you debate fiercely insist that they and mr. pitt are right in their splitting hairs - ie., their own interpretation of an ambiguity.

i wish i could assist you. i am not capable of doing more than thanking you and adding tiny bits here and there. but then, you are doing very well, and in face of incredible (mob-ish) resistance.


peace and solidarity

[nofurylike]

88. this is so wrong. and low. nt

[Zhade]

209. Indeed. obama never should have lied to us. It truly IS low.

NT!

[nofurylike]

230. you're right, i shouldn't have been ambiguous. the OP is wrong,

and it is low.

thanks for the nudge to be more clear!

[urgk]

93. Nobody can know his intent. Let's hold him accountable for his actions.

This is just more of the same silliness where we pretend to know "why" when all we can really prove is "what." If there is a difference between the man's actions and his promises, point them out, write letters, hold him to it. BUT, to accuse him of deliberate obfuscation of his true intent takes proof. This isn't FOX and it isn't CNN. Let them have wild overreaction based on speculation.

You/we/I are better than that.

I'm disappointed in DU. Not for questioning. Not for the doubt. Not for holding all of our Democrats accountable. But for running around, Chicken Little style pretending at the top of our lungs to know all sorts of things we don't know.

[tavalon]

192. Um, we have a pretty good record from the last eight years

Many times we knew things well before they became common knowledge. We are holding President Obama to at least the same standard as the shrub and frankly, many of us we're holding him to a higher standard. He asked us to.

[urgk]

195. Knowing things is a far cry from guessing at them.

All I'm saying is that if we speculate, if we imagine, if we pretend to know what the man is thinking, we should admit as much. We cannot call the man a "snake" without assuming that we know that it is pre-planned mal-intent, rather than pragmatic adjustment to the situation that's determining his actions. I have seen absolutely no proof that President Obama has willfully misled us. I'll admit that it IS a possibility, but we should treat it as such, not as a given.

[Zhade]

210. He purposefully misled us by lying to us about never campaigning on a PO.

Either he's a liar, or he's too stupid to remember he did in fact campaign on it MANY TIMES and it's ON VIDEO -- and he's not stupid.

[BigBearJohn]

94. 100th rec

[DailyGrind51]

99. A great old Johnny Rivers song, too!

[defendandprotect]

101. What he's saying is . . .. "I am not a crook" . . . Nixon's line . . .

And, let's face it, Obama hasn't really "campaigned" for health care reform.

Baucus in charge!!! Baucus chin high in "for profit" health care corporate dollars!

If the Democrats were serious about passing meaningful health care for America, they

would have called out the unions, the women's groups, and Democratic voters to

demonstrate for it.

Only the "teabaggers" have been called out--!!


Democrats in Congress are airing some of their dissatisfactions --

Conyers -- noting that the only one Obama listens to is Rahm Emmanuel -- for a really

frightening thought!!

Others expressing displeasure that the president provided no leadership on this issue.

I agree --

[Vinnie From Indy]

110. I too am a bit stunned by Obama's denial

It gives more creedence to the idea that Obama and his political advisors cut a deal much earlier than is known about health care reform. It explains the trajectory of this legislation.

I agree completely with the notion that Obama has made a huge political mistake by not simply offering he tried and failed on the public option provision. Defending the loss of the public option in this legislation by denying it was one of his stated major goals gained him nothing politically.

[defendandprotect]

111. SC Justice Thurgood Marshall also used the "snake" to warn us re his replacement ...

as he retired --

Marshall said: "The color of a snake doesn't matter. What matters is whether or

not it bites!"

Clarence Thomas was nominated thereafter -- someone often called a "Judas" by his own people.


Clarence Thomas, the pervert . . . more right wing than Atilla the Hun!

[geckosfeet]

112. Not to quibble, but he did leave a little wiggle room in his language.

In general I am happy that some small incremental effort was made.

But I am very very unhappy that insurance companies have been guaranteed customers in perpetuity. At the same time actually improving health care delivery systems seems to have become a secondary consideration in this mess.

As Mr.Pitt knows, the national boondoggle shares some similarity to the health insurance company welfare program that we have in MA. Politicians deliver virtually bottomless revenue streams to insurance companies, while not doing the hard part - meaningfully addressing health care delivery issues.

When/if the bill is reconciled and is passed, Obama can tout health care reform, keep the insurance industry happy, and deny he campaigned on a public option all at the same time. It is an amazing sleight of hand that provides more than enough wiggle room to go around.

[whathappened]

113. right on

kill this chit for a health care bill , i'm 1 of the 1's who needed this health care and needed the part d redone , and bush and chenny hung from the highest tree , the corperations bought down , they are no longer making america stronger , ther just feeding wall street , and bring down the fat cats on wall street who stole the peoples investments , this is why i voted for change , we got no change , we got just another political hack lead around by the nose

[Robyn66]

114. HI WILL

Awesome Article!!! As always you "get it".

[BlueJazz]

116. As usual Mr. Pitt.....You nailed it and say what I feel. Obama reminds me of one..

...of those dudes that romances a woman with kindness, consideration and all of the attributes that "Turn" women on.
After the Wedding ...it's "Get out in that kitchen and rattle those pots and pans" :)

[WeDidIt]

120. I give this post the Steaming Pile of the Decade award

No no, you deserve it...

[Liberation Angel]

128. I am correct aren't I...?

That is Bull doodoo, right?

The OP post is dookey?

(You mean the claim that Obama lied is not true? It's fabricated BS?)

okay then...

I thought so...

carry on

[freddie mertz]

149. Your facts are wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x416707

Now you need to apologize.

[WeDidIt]

152. Hmm, everything is from 2009

AFTER he became president.

But don't let the facts get in your way.

[freddie mertz]

168. Did you watch the video? Stuff in there from 2007 and 2008.

Well before 2009.

But even if he had not campaigned on a "public plan," and AGAINST private mandates, what he is saying is notably far from forthright.

My mark for your attempted defense of this dishonesty: Fail.

Happy Xmas anyway.

[Odin2005]

127. We've been had!

[Javaman]

130. what is "rilly"? I couldn't read your post after that.

if it's a colloquialism, I suggest you don't use it. It's bad.

If it's poor attention to spelling, there is a spell check.

So what is "rilly"?

[tavalon]

191. It's an internet colloquialism

That was my first indication that this was a post just for DU, not for publication.

If I had ever figured out how to put pictures on here, I would show you the picture it comes from. Pretty hilarious actually, it's an owl and the caption is "Oh, Rilly?" It's like a LOLcat (LOLowl?).

[scentopine]

132. Absolute truth here. -nt

[Liberation Angel]

135. Not! Why the hate for Obama?

and the lies against him?

[scentopine]

139. LOL! Way to change the topic, the only lies are Obama's

In a nutshell-

Flip flop on wire tapping

Making his first mission after being elected meeting with republican pundits to "win them over"

The secret meetings with insurance company executives and for profit health care, like Cheney meeting with oil companies before Iraq War II

Moving forward past torture

Trillions for Wall Street Bailout

Goldman Sachs/Citibank insiders running treasury

Constant appeasement and capitulation to republicans

A weak supreme court candidate who has in the past discussed citizen rights and corporate rights in the same breath.

Constantly lecturing the left - even his latest interview, scolding the left for legitimate opposition and concern about health plan

Congress having religious leaders shaping health care legislation - breaking constitutional law separating church and state. His silence was deafening.

The Afghan escalation - a ten year war creating rivers of blood and communities of pestilence. A war against impoverished people ruled by corrupt and narco government. Millions of innocent are are dead millions more crippled. Let their blood splatter the Obama "centrists".

The way this health care bill was written by lobbyists from beginning to end using some of the most tortured logic to justify it as a "new deal" for America. Bullshit. Oh -we pay now for inflated costs later.

Mr. Obama so powerful he can commit another trillion dollars and open a can of whoop ass in Afghanistan, but impotent at home dealing with Wall Street fraud and corruption.

Continuing to support outsourcing and H-1B program - allowing wall street to sell off American intellectual property to Asia for pennies on the dollar. H1B is importing cheap labor from cruel labor markets from Asia and making them like indentured servants here in USA where they - work for less in a largely unregulated capacity allowing employers to take advantage of them. Obama and republicans argue - "at least they are better here" as they steal away American jobs. This is bullshit.

Recent changes to allow wall street to report gains while hiding losses.

These are just a few of the big issues. I could go on, drilling down deeper and deeper - that will be better left for a book on the subject.

On the other hand - you would be more correct to challenge the assertion that Obama is a snake and we knew he was a snake when we voted for him.

Republicans make it easy - they just about wear a big red shirt that says "I am a snake".

The new democrats and centrists are much much more dangerous. They campaign like they are like faithful guard dogs of civil liberties and citizen rights, civil protections and progressive politics. Its only after they are elected that they put on the shirt that says "I am a snake".

I don't hate Obama the man, I hate Obama the president. With each duplicitous action, his speeches sound more and more like finger nails on the chalk board.

He meets and coddles and strokes and fondles republicans all day. He and Rahm then give long time democrats like me a giant fuck you.

I didn't vote for a snake, but that's what I got. This isn't the change I voted for. Its more of the same.

Obama is father of two stimulus packages, he gave Wall Street theirs on a gold platter. We have to go to Afghanistan to collect ours.

[Liberation Angel]

157. No, Obama did not lie on This point as asserted. Nice try though. You call Obama a SNAKE

so we know where your sentiments lie and your prejudices.

But the fact is that the OP is simply false (or based on no evidence(.

On each of the polciy issues you raise we can argue them or agree on them: but they are policy and strategic issues which we may differ on.

But if you honestly BELIEVE that centrists and new dems are more dangerous than Repbublicans then why do you not join them instead of attacking dems and Obama.

The real villains are the extreme rightists which have pulled us nearly over into the abyss. We need to keep dems honest an supportive of progressive causes: NOT burn all the bridges

Obama IS a moderate and has neer claimed otherwise. On some issues he is very progressive and others not so much. But he is the best we have and if we tear him down we will be back totally in the hands of the fascists in 2012.

Is that what you want?

[scentopine]

173. Yeah right. A centerist is another word for early Reagan neo-con

I am a 30 year democrat at times more involved than others. I was VERY involved last election in time and cash which is why I am so angry and so many others are angry.,

This anger is legitimate. I am tired of hearing "centrist" bullshit. Centrists, realists, moderates are such cowards when it comes to basic human dignity and principals, they hide their cowardly behavior behind their "pure" and "centered" ideology. An ideology that is so "pragmatic" that every decision is quantified on how much cash it brings to the upper 5% of this country who hold 95% of the wealth. You see- basic principals have no cash value to them. So instead of fighting for the very basic human values, every decision is weighed against how much personal wealth can be achieved at the cost of the greater good and public governance.

The same "free market" and "rich people first" horse shit that Reagan used to spew is just being recycled here. with the new democrats Centrist is just another word for "challenged to quantify the value of principals and fairness and civil liberties".

On every important issue that I mentioned Obama has been on the wrong side of center. What could be clearer? There is no place for compromise on torture. That isn't moderate, that is bullshit covering the ass of CIA.

The new democrats have let the right wing do all the heavy lifting - the far right has spent the time and money through control of media to set the tone and tenor of modern politics and political direction in this country. Good or bad, it doesn't matter to the new democrats. The new democrats triangulate around trying to find the shortest distance to the money. They simply have to stay a few clicks to the left of the extreme right sucked along in the slipstream and then call themselves "centerist democrats". Its a very efficient way to operate. They are far right in politics, and still get to say they are left of the extremists.

There is a time an place for the anger of betrayal and it is now.

I tried working within the system. I don't agree with the corporate influence in Obama's administration, don't agree with Obama's continuing attacks at the left, don't agree with how he treated Dean and the rest of us who are extremely upset at how focused this administration is on the rich, don't agree with his stance on torture, wiretapping, mandates, religious influence on and on.

All of my points are deal breakers. New democrats should just call themselves republicans and get it over with.

We won't forget. And you better get used to that and accept that centered is just another word for republican.

Even with video and print media exposing the lies (remember Obama saying the US has never attacked a democracy?) over helath care, it just gets us more and more angry.

Fuck the centrists. Not another dime. For public governance they are worthless. For the corporate oligarchy they are priceless.

There needs to be a third party where we can fight Obama and the centrists. I want to be part of that fight not the cowardly fight the "new" democrats are fighting. Centrist Obama and the new democrats now show their true colors and it is an ugly duplicity.

We need change and pressure on Washington. They don't fear us so they piss on us.

[Zhade]

211. Yes, he did. Stop lying.

NT!

[dreamnightwind]

163. Awesome post

right on!

[tavalon]

190. Dude, you have achieved fail here

We're not holding him to any higher standard than his predecessor. In this day and age, lying and triangulating are way too easily ferreted out. We could call it obfuscation if the word "lie" hurts your feelings so very much.

[Missy Vixen]

136. Will, I wish I'd written this

It's outstanding. Thank you for putting into easily-understood concepts my absolute unhappiness with President Obama and his policies. In the meantime, the Obama administration's throwing Dr. Dean under the bus? Thanks, "Barry from DC", for giving me yet one more reason to squeeze whatever we can out of the household budget for DFA. Dr. Dean isn't perfect, but I would still walk barefoot over broken glass for him. He, as you've so eloquently said, is the real deal.

I hope you and your wife have a wonderful Christmas, full of all the things that make you the happiest.

:hug:

[Beetwasher]

138. Meh. I Can't Get That Worked Up Over This

Really, it seems to me it's semantics. I'd say he campaigned on reforming the health care system and that the public option was one piece of that that he thought would be an effective part of it.

Really. Meh. I don't get the overreaction. I think people are just being a bit too sensitive here and really looking for something to be pissed at.

[Bluebear]

164. 'Though I'd still be an asshole.' - well we agree on something

[Beetwasher]

193. How Substantive!

I may be an asshole, but at least I'm not full of hate like you.

[Zhade]

212. Indeed, you're just full of shit.

: )

[Beetwasher]

224. MyMy

So bitter. What a shame.

[aquart]

140. Once upon a time, Obama explained how he happened to buy his house.

I looked at what he said, and what the numbers said, and realized that man could lie with a perfectly straight and deeply sincere face.

Which is NOT necessarily a bad thing in a world leader.

But I did mention it. And stopped listening to his speeches. What he said wasn't of any great value to me after that.

The only thing that was going to matter was what he did.

So I'm not in a world of hurt to find out he can lie. I already knew it when I cast my ballot for my party's choice.

[ima_sinnic]

162. do you remember any details of that?

the story of how he bought a house is something I've forgotten, if I heard it at all.
Since he knew it was a lie, maybe he tried to keep it a little low-key to avoid maximum exposure. Now he doesn't seem to care how much exposure his lies get.

[Martin Eden]

141. Obama is not a snake

He's a politician who has compromised more than we'd like, but he has gotten a foot firmly in the door to health care reform. Strip away all the BS rhetoric and it boils down the reality that a Senate failure to pass this legislation would be a major victory for the Republican Party. It could resurrect their political fortunes and delay reform for who knows how many years.

If the Democratic leadership had insisted on a public option, could we have gotten the 60 votes necessary to end the Republican filibuster? Yes or No?

We also need to keep in mind that this legislation is primarily a creation of the Senate (not the President); that the House version has a public option; that there will likely be changes coming out of the House/Senate conference; and that a public option is still a possibility in the final legislation because only 50 votes will be needed in the Senate.

Here's an important question that I don't know the answer to:
If there will be no public option now, will the passing of this legislation improve the chances for a public option in the future? Keep in mind that failure now could boost the Republican ranks.

Will,
I understand you feel betrayed by Obama, but your OP seems more of an emotional reaction than a cogent analysis of the political realities the President has to deal with. The public option was not going to pass the Senate, and failure to pass something now could have delayed or doomed efforts at better reform.

I don't like it one bit, but I am not convinced this president is standing in the way of meaningful reform. On the contrary -- his election may be the greatest single factor in making real progress on health care for the first time in nearly half a century.

[fascisthunter]

144. Thank You Will... well stated without any Ill Will

very resonable rebuttable... always appreciated

[appal_jack]

155. k&r from a radical

Will,

I'm not afraid of the term 'radical,' as I see us needing radical change in many areas: health care, the environment, campaign financing, the economy, corporate power, civil liberties, etc.

But I'll k&r your post anyway, as Obama's astonishing claim that he did not campaign on the public option is beyond insulting to the many radicals, liberals, and others who gave their time and money to help Obama get elected.

-app

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

158. William Rivers Pitt

A very Excellent Piece.

I'm not a Radical either, but I can see the handwriting on
The Wall.

I am disappointed beyond belief with the decisions made
by this administration.

Your warning "if the Obama administration keeps this despicable behavior up, they are going to find themselves squared off with a legion of newly-radicalized people who will wonder why they ever picked this snake up in the first place".
is well taken.

...on a side note...

I've been thinking the line, 'you knew what it was when you picked it up' myself lately. :shrug:

[KoKo]

178. I was around when Johnson Resigned....So I remember..

and I have wonders about Obama already saying..he could be a One Termer. What's distressing is that he realizes he gave so much to Wall St. with little or no investigation, prosecution of those who apparently "brought the Global Economy on the Precipice," or the Insurance Company Give Aways, the "Drones targeting Terrorists who also have Collateral Damage of Women and Children"...his extended war of the drones with Kids pushing Buttons to "Take Out INNOCENTS" that they NEVER SEE...and on and on and on.

Where are even the mildest INVESTIGATIONS OF BUSH/CHENEY CRIMES? Why is Seligman still fighting JAIL TIME while others were let off and on and on and on....

It's a headache. If he is a "One Termer" it will be because he agreed to not deal with any Bush/Cheney Lies and instead chose to give Empty Rhetoric while packing his adminstration with folks he knew would fight for "THE SYSTEM...the POWERS THAT BE...and that's WHY and HOW he was ELECTED.

It's too sad...has me in total depression...all those years..all that effort...and THIS IS WHAT WE GET?

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

181. KoKo, Happy Holidays!

I know.

I feel so many of those things too but it all boils down to
I am So Pissed and out of energy.

Let me GO OFF on Health Care for a minute.
One Year - morning noon and night talking about Health Care.
I am so sick of health care, I don't understand most of what most people have been talking about.
I do know this though, it's not what his base wants and it has alot of BS
in it.

There are so many things.

There are 3 years for him to make the change happen.

He took an Oath.
He called it a A Sacred Oath

WilliamPitt has it right,
we are at the barricades.

I'm no radical. I just believe with all my heart in the idea that is America, an idea that has been poorly served for the entirety of this thankfully dying decade, an idea that has once again been sold down the river by another lying politician. That idea deserves better, as do we all, and if the Obama administration keeps this despicable behavior up, they are going to find themselves squared off with a legion of newly-radicalized people who will wonder why they ever picked this snake up in the first place.

I'm Hopeful things will get better. Somethings stirring with WE.

[KoKo]

184. And may you have some Happiness out of this Holiday, too....

We need to keep perspective and not let it eat us alive...and that said...it's really hard to do..but I guess we gotta try.

:hug: I hear ya'..

[DebbieCDC]

167. K&R

No DNC or OFA money from me anymore.

My little $$ that I have to donate are ONLY going to progressive candidates and causes

I've had enough of this BS that Obama is peddling. Hearing that interview NPR did with him yesterday was truly the last straw.

[KoKo]

175. Ahh Will... So glad this got "Unlock."

K&R!

[KoKo]

179. ....

[EFerrari]

177. .

[ooglymoogly]

182. Excellent analogy...you forgot to mention the snake was disguised

as a huggable, fluffy puppy and the snake only pretended the old lady knew he was a snake to justify his duplicity.

[phasma ex machina]

183. From "Healthcare Reform" to "Health Insurance Reform" without missing a beat.

"That's my baby!"

:rofl:

[tavalon]

189. Yeah, that was slicker than shit, huh?

Kind of reminded me of how Weapons of Mass Destruction became Weapons of Mass Destruction Plans.

[Faryn Balyncd]

194. K and R

[Zhade]

196. He lied this time, so why wouldn't he lie again?

He simply cannot be trusted anymore.

What a monumental wasted opportunity his presidency is shaping up to be.

[WilliamPitt]

213. Xmas kick

Cuz I'm still pissed.

:grr:

[EFerrari]

214. Nicely done, Will Pitt.

:kick:

[kgnu_fan]

220. K&R nt

[kgnu_fan]

223. FYI: Imperialism in the Age of Obama - John Pilger

Tune in www.kgnu.org on December 30, 6 PM Mountain Time

http://www.kgnu.org/cgi-bin/programinfo.py?time=1262221200

On Alternative Radio, Wed, Dec 30 at 06:00 PM
Host: David Barsamian

Imperialism in the Age of Obama

The election of Barack Obama was greeted in many circles with a combination of relief and euphoria. It was of course historic. But does Obama represent genuine change from the previous regime? Eloquence and charisma, while attractive qualities, are not policy. Obama is imbued with the same imperial mentality that prevails in Washington in that he believes America can re-engineer other countries like Afghanistan. This hubris will lead to further death and destruction. Obama has declared that Afghanistan is "a war worth fighting" and has doubled the number of troops there. A little history would be instructive. The mighty British Empire, among others, on multiple occasions, tried to conquer Afghanistan. They never succeeded. One high 19th century British official astutely observed that the Afghans "do not want us, they dread our appearance in their country and will not tolerate foreign rule."

John Pilger is an internationally renowned journalist and documentary filmmaker. Born in Australia, he's been based in London for many years. He's twice won British journalism's highest award, that of Journalist of the Year. His award-winning documentaries such as "Palestine is Still the Issue" and "The War on Democracy" are seen all over the world but rarely in the U.S. He is the author of numerous books including The New Rulers of the World and Freedom Next Time.

[jonnyblitz]

225. thanks for this link. I like john pilger!

:hi:

[nofurylike]

227. have you read this?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/21/817467/-14,000-Kennedy-Sanders-Cardin-Clinics-to-serve-45,000,000-Americans

[nofurylike]

228. did you read the below? you base all that vitriol on an ambiguity? not a

lie. ambiguous interpretation by you and by obama.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/dec/23/barack-obama/public-option-obama-platform/

public options are included in the bill as it is now. not what some want them to be, but they are there.

"campaign on" is ambiguous.

"a public option" versus what some call THE public option - ambiguous.


ambiguities that thrill you because you can, by *your* particular interpretation of the ambiguities, call them lies and puff all up about that.

a plan is not promise. a candidate can not promise something that congress must vote on. just to fight for it.

"snake"?

that is a lie, will. he is a human. why are you lying about that?