France proposes ban on Islamic veils

[The Straight Story]

France proposes ban on Islamic veils

France's ruling party, the conservative Union Pour un Mouvement Populaire (UMP), says it plans to present a bill to parliament in January, which would ban full Islamic veils in all public places. The bill is to be presented in the first two weeks of next month, just before the conclusions of a French parliamentary inquiry on the burqa and niqab are published.

Jean-Francois Cope, the parliamentary party leader of the UMP, said the measure was meant to defend France from extremists.

"There are principles at stake: Extremists are putting the republic to the test by promoting a practice that they know is contrary to the basic principles of our country," he said.

Veils "not welcome" in France

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has said that veils that hide women's faces in public are "not welcome" in France. Most politicians say they would like to see the results of the parliamentary inquiry on the veils before they decide on the need for a law.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5052094,00.html

[Meldread]

1. Sickening.

I know there will be some people on DU openly cheering, but this is sickening. Whatever one may personally believe, the simple fact is that so long as women make the CHOICE to wear these veils, the French Government is moving to strip away that choice. It is hammering away at religious freedom.

I believe in religious freedom. Even for people I don't agree with... and I'm an atheist.

[WildEyedLiberal]

5. I'm not cheering, but France doesn't enshrine religious freedom the way we do

Religious symbols have been banned in schools for a long time, including crosses and Stars of David. Frankly, people know that France is a secular country when they immigrate there, and if they insist on being able to practice their religion the way they always have, they should consider whether its compatible with their chosen destination.

Also, you can't convince me that the majority of these women wear the veil by "choice," either. I am sure there are many who do, but most do so out of fear - fear of retribution from their husband, father, or male neighbors should they violate "tradition." Many Muslims in France live in very self-segregated neighborhoods and have little desire to assimilate into a secular Western culture, so I can't bring myself to feel too much sympathy here.

[Meldread]

13. Would you say the same if they had moved to America and it was said...

"Frankly, people know that America is a Christian Nation when they immigrate here, and if they insist on being able to practice their religion the way they always have, they should consider whether its compatible with their chosen destination."

What would you say to that?

It has nothing to do with French secularism. Secularism is essential for religious freedom - it's a bit difficult for Jews, Christians, Buddhists, <Insert other Faith Here including Atheism> to find a home in many nations of the Middle East.

However, being a secular nation merely means that religion does not play a role in government. Not the private lives of individuals. Some of these women may very well fear retribution from their family, friends, and neighbors. I don't doubt that. However, they are still making the choice to wear the veil. It is up to these women, individually and collectively, to stand up against the tyranny of their family, friends, and neighbors. That is not the role of the French government. It is the role of the government to stand behind the women when they make the choice to remove the veil, and protect them from retribution. It is not the role of the government to make that choice for them.

I can understand the French governments failure to assimilate them into their culture and society and the desire to fix that. However, this is not the way you accomplish it. This will only alienate them. You assimilate by being welcoming and open.

This is one area where America has far surpassed virtually every other nation on the face of the planet. We have the ability to assimilate, for good or for ill, virtually anyone who immigrates to the United States. Perhaps it is because our nation was founded by waves of immigrants, and it is... somehow... ingrained in our culture. I think it is one of the strengths of our nation, one of the keys to our success - our diversity.

However, I believe that this action against Muslims, much like the action against minarets in Sweden, is the result of xenophobia. It has little to do with a wish to assimilate, but rather, a wish to alienate, and ultimately force them from their nation.

[WildEyedLiberal]

14. Absolutely ridiculous hypothetical, as America is not a Christian nation

Christianity is given no preference over Islam or any other religion or lack thereof in our legal structure, so your hypothetical is moot.

However, such a law WOULD be unthinkable in America, simply because we do have the freedom to practice religion freely enshrined in our Constitution. France has no similar guarantee, so we're comparing apples and oranges here. AFAIK, there's no ironclad "right" to practice your religion of choice in France, so yes, that is something people should be aware if they want to move there. I also don't agree that you can lay the sole burden of guilt for the immigrants' failure to assimilate on the French government. Many Muslim immigrants in Europe have little desire to assimilate into their host society. Female genital mutilation, as an example, is fairly prevalent among certain African immigrant communities in France. Yes, of course it's illegal in France, but it still goes on.

You're probably right that banning the veil is pointless in that it simply attacks a symptom of this failure to assimilate, and doubtless a good deal of the blame can and does go to the French government. You also can't really compare the immigration situation in Europe to America. We don't have assimilation problems because, frankly, we have much stricter standards when it comes to obeying our laws. I can't imagine a community that, hypothetically, allowed female genital mutilation would be long tolerated here. But France and many other European countries have refused to press the assimilation issue out of fear of being branded racists or imperialists, and now are dealing with the popular blowback in ridiculous ways (such as banning veils or minarets) that punish all Muslims, when they should have enforced stricter assimilation policies to begin with and thus could have avoided all this ridiculous mess.

[elehhhhna]

8. Some of these women are comfortable inthe veil --they grew up in them.

Like Grandma and her babushka. The State vs. Religion and the women as usual are the goddmaned pawns. EVERY TIME.

[tritsofme]

2. They should respect France's secular culture.

The French have a right to defend the secularity of their government.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. This isn't about the secularity of their government.

This is about the rise of Fascism in their government.

[paulsby]

7. citizen's clothing choice has NOTHING to do with france's government

if a bunch of citizens in france decided to wear jerry lewis shirts, would that mean france's govt is now buffoonish comedians.

wait...

[Gwendolyn]

9. Except when it's about hiding your face in the public arena.

I certainly wouldn't like it if men started to walk around in faceless grim reaper costumes and am doubtful other women would approve either.

Also, these women are unemployable. Should anything happen to the primary male caretaker in the family and there are no other males willing to support her, the woman is basically a ward of the state for her entire life. In this case, one's choice of garb certainly does become an issue for the government, and the tax payers.

[paulsby]

11. that's a TOTALLY different issue

i'm simply saying that the claim that the anti-veil ban was related to their secular govt. is not supported.

one can find any # of reasons to disapprove or even ban (at least in a restrictive country like france)veils

and you mentioned several.

NONE of which has to do with the secular nature of france's govt.

the fact that you changed the argument pretty much says it all

[Gwendolyn]

12. Hmmm... well I would argue that being unable to work because of your religion

does have a connection to the secular nature of france's government. As it is when religious practices upset the balance of society. There are lots of religious practices that are banned in secular society. For instance, you wouldn't see a big influx of the Amish and their horse and buggies moving into New York City. These would be prohibited. I see people hiding their faces in public in the same vein.

[valerief]

3. Good. Outlaw the women-haters. Even women who hate themselves. nt

[Thickasabrick]

6. I'm torn on this....I dunno....looking forward to hearing the arguments. nt

[WeDidIt]

10. I prefer not to involve myself in the internal politics of France

That said, it would be an odious piece of legislation, IMO.

[Sultana]

15. Vive la France

....


Some of y'all would be cheering had it been a ban on something 'Christian'! Just sayin'

Islam is so opressed :sarcasm:

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Crosses are banned from schools in France and I haven't seen anyone cheering...

Some of y'all seem to like making things up to justify y'all's hatred of Muslims. Just sayin' ;)

In case you haven't noticed, there is a great deal of discrimination against Muslims, so stop pretending that there isn't...