More and More I see the Republican Talking Points masquerading as lefty rhetoric and I am scared...

[Liberation Angel]

What the hell are progressives and leftists who support change and progress DOING when we habitually get into a circular firing squad and attack Obama and the Dems when MANY of them are TRYING to bring about some progressive change.

We disagree on minor points and absorb all the negativity and even hate and spew it out at each other and at Obama and the Dems EVEN THOUGH IT IS CLEAR THAT OBSTRUCTIONIST RETHUGS AND DINOS are to blame for the failure of the Seante to pass a better health care bill, universal care or a public option.

We shriek and holler and one poster is calling Obama a liar and a snake (with very little basis in fact if any at all) and we are virtually DESTROYING the prospects for future change, future election of progressives and progressive dems and a second term for Obama.

People say there is no difference between the rethugs and the democrats.
People say Obama is a corporate whore and a sellout and no better than Bush.

HOW MANY YOUNG DEMOCRATS AND PARTICIPANTS IN DEMOCRACY ARE WE PERMANENTLY ALIENATING WITH BULLSHIT RHETORIC WHICH IGNORES POLITICAL REALITIES AND WHICH ECHOES EXACLY WHAT THE WHITE RIGHT WING WANTS US TO SHRIEK ABOUT RELENTLESSLY UNTIL WE FEEL ALL OUR VALUES ARE BETRAYED.

Obama NEEDS us to challenge him.

But he is not a sellout. He may be wrong on some points.

He is not Perfect. He is a human being who, I believe, WANTS to do the right thing by all of us.

He is about as far from a Bush as you can go in American politics.

And he represents ALL of us, including those who are not as progressive or hip or lefty or pacifist as us.

Obama is doing what he CAN. He is TRYING (despite the cries of betrayal here at DU). And we may disagree vehemently on some policies, but overall it is immeasurably better than McCain or the rethugs or the bastards we MAY get (Romney/Palin) in 2012 if we keep attacking Obama.

BUT ARE WE FOREVER DESTROYING THE CHANCE FOR INCREMENTAL PROGRESSIVE AND PRACTICAL CHANGE BY ATTACKING AND DESTROYING OBAMA AND MANY OF THE DEMOCRATS WHO WANT TO GIVE US WHAT WE WANT BUT WHO HAVE HAD TO MAKE COMPROMISES DUE TO THE ALMOST INSURMOUNTABLE POWER AND INFLUENCE of the CORPOROFASCIST OPPOSITION?

Let us NOT destroy ourselves and commit political suicide because we do not win every victory or get all we all mostly want. We need to look at this as an intergenerational battle for the soul of America and if we let the right wing control our talking points and deride and denigrate our own leaders, we are doing the work of the corporofascists.

I fear we are missing this point in this one skirmish.

We need to hang together for the long term.

Or we will each hang alone.

[scheming daemons]

1. HUGE rec for you!.... the bleating DUers who think they're "progressive" are

not representative of even a sizeable minority... except at DU.

[BP2]

28. .

[Skittles]

99. define "bleating DUers"

go on, fucking define it

[Liberation Angel]

105. I'll try

sheep who blindly and loudly and whinily attack their own flock when the wolf is approaching and ready to devour them in their distracted and confused chaos.

[Skittles]

106. are you referring to those of us who think this so-called "reform" fucking stinks?

because if you are, you are SO fucking full of shit

[Liberation Angel]

107. No - Not at all. Frankly I think it sucks as is...

but I like it better than NO reform an there are Many things I like about it

But if you read my post my concern is the ATTACKS on Obama and the democratic Congress in general basically asserting they are no better than Bush and Cheney and the republicans and spouting rhetoric that is diminishing chances for further victories and a victory in 2012.

It is not the criticism of the bill but the hateful and hostile antiDemocratic tone and the actual fabrication, namecalling and lies agaiost Obama and the Dems in Congress

[Skittles]

109. it's a bit much to say they are no better than bush and cheney

it's not too much to say they have been hugely disappointing

[yurbud]

111. then why are you here? You must think we have some influence or you wouldn't be

trying to sway the debate here or put up with our bleating.

[countingbluecars]

2. Good post.

K&R

[havocmom]

3. Was a time I would mostly agree with the sentiment

That time has passed. Party wants blind support, no dice. Party wants to work toward goals and stop lying about what was said when there is video... fuck that shit

[gateley]

9. Angel is right -- there ARE many who are trying to do what's right. nt

[Liberation Angel]

12. The Democratic party is not monolithic.

I have some GREAT Democratic representatives.

Not perfect but great.

There are other Dems in other states that are worse and some much worse.

But the party is not monolithic.

People are claiming Obama lied but that OP was dead wrong.

Obama camapigned on universal health care NOT on a "Public Option" (which to me is a mealy mouthed platitude which means little absent context).

I do not want blind support BUT I DO WANT UNMITIGATED OPPOSITION TO THE RETHUGS AND DINOS.

By BLAMING Obama and the party one ignores or neglects the reality that the ENEMY of freedom and justice is the right wing parties exemplified by the corporofascist republicans and Dinos NOT he democratic party as a whole.

[LooseWilly]

59. Define DINO. I'm starting to think Obama might qualify...

Just a theory for right now... but it seems to be gaining supportive evidence day after day...

[Liberation Angel]

That is what republicans want us to believe

of course then he is no better than Lieberman or hell McCain

and then we won't suport him or vote for him or vote at all.

Thanks for proving my point

[KakistocracyHater]

112. [phone]

*

[EmeraldCityGrl]

4. I keep thinking the DU board is making the freepers

head spin. Really, can you imagine how confused those pea brains must be? Any day now I expect them to start singing Obama's virtues
just to be contrary.

[Liberation Angel]

32. LOL

I needed some lightness in this thread

[MannyGoldstein]

5. Trillions For Bankers

With a fierce urgency. Chump change for the rest.

Please.

Where's that golden oratory when it comes time to do something for non-members of the Predator Class? It turns into finger-waving lectures.

[KittyWampus]

7. Do you have a link to any PRO-ACTIVE posts you've made on DU in the last several weeks?

Just curious.

[Romulox]

60. What does this even mean: "PRO-ACTIVE posts" (sic)

Looks like meaningless jargon strung together to me. :shrug:

[Starry Messenger]

88. Corporate jargon.

"Pro-active", "It is what it is"...etc.

[Liberation Angel]

10. How about Public Health Clinics? Subsidies for tens of millions for health care?

and what if the banks had all failed?

I actually see lots for the nonpredator classes.

I see measureable progress on some fronts.

Except for Afghanistan policy I am VERY pleased with much of the change. OF COURSE we need more. Of course we need to pressure and agitate for more better change. But it is a system that moves and grinds slowly.

It can grind for us or grind us up.

I see it now grinding for us for the most part. It is incremental progress and we need to SUPPORT that.

I

[rwheeler31]

46. Bush started Tarp you are not that stupid come on get real.

[Romulox]

62. 1) Obama, as a Senator, twisted arms in support of, and voted for, TARP

2) the Obama admin has released orders of magnitude more funds to Wall Street through the Fed.

:hi:

[Romulox]

64. 3) TARP was structured so that the incoming admin would get to spend 50% of it.

:hi: :hi: :hi:

[LooseWilly]

75. Does that mean that Bush should get credit for the banks not failing? For Wall St. recovery?

I thought Obama was lauding that as the most important thing he'd done this year...

[johnaries]

94. Bankers are paying TARP funds back. And taxpayers are making

a profit in many cases.

The TARP funds were given out mostly by buying non-voting (aka non-socialist") stock. Obama added provisions that the banks did not like - at all. Therefore, the banks are paying the TARP funds back as quickly as possible to avoid Obama's conditions. And since it was in the form of stock and stocks have gone up, they are often repaying more than they received.

But don't take my word for it - Google "tarp repayment".

[gateley]

6. K&R!! nt

[liberalmuse]

8. Rec...

and I'm sure some hater will come and take it away. This is the kind of sanity I wish would come back to DU.

[rwheeler31]

11. I recommend but of course the purists will be contrary.

Some young Dem's have only known gop administrations, they cannot figure this out.

[Liberation Angel]

16. Disillusionment with the system is normal, but blaming Obama is an error...

and the young and new democratic activists and participants NEED to hear and see these discussions.

There is too much stupid rhetoric at DU sounding like nader and supporting an agenda which HELPS the opposition (the rethugs)

We MUST be awre of this and temper the bullsh*t attacks.

[timeforpeace]

126. Then you obviously understand, and identify with, Republicans who felt this way about Bush.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. I read your post looking for your list of republican talking points

masquerading as this 'lefty' rhetoric.

Basically what I found was this:

"People say Obama is a corporate whore and a sellout and no better than Bush."

Is that a republican talking point now?

Did you leave something out?

Unrecc'd for the usual reasons.

[Liberation Angel]

19. Saying Obama is a corporate whore and sellout IS a REPUBLICAN TALKING POINT

That is used to divide the left but planted in the minds of some naive "progressives"

The media is tricky and the right wing media is very skilled at making the right wing points SOUND like a progressive critique by the left (especially when it comes from the mouths or pens or keyboards of those who CLAIM to be progressive lefties)

Politics 101 - Machiavelli - The Prince

Lies, damn lies, chaos, confusion, blame the victim, blame the scapegoat (which had nothing to do with it)

Yeah - that is a republican talking point fed to the left and swallowed whole by dupes and naifs who do not know better (yet). And regurgistated by "lefty" pundits who are ether dumb, complicit or who are truly doing the work of the devil

[Warren Stupidity]

20. OK, please cite me one Republican using this talking point. nt.

[Liberation Angel]

26. Anyone who uses it is serving the republicans

whatever their party affiliation.

My point is that these talking points are fed via the media to the left. the LEFT is meant to adopt them BUT they are designed by propagandists for the right to be spoonfed to the impressionable left at places like DU and elsewhere. It is propaganda: right wing propagada (for the most part). There are legitimate critiques but MANY of these arguments are fed to the left subtly or not so subtly to undermine Obama and the Dems and progressive agendas by claiming the dems are just like rethugs.

People here at DU fall for this and echo it here daily. And it hurts progressive causes and progress.

[Warren Stupidity]

31. Again - your claim was that 'lefties' are using 'republican talking points'.

Now you are reduced to the 'get in line' bullshit that anyone criticizing this crapfest of corporate corruption is 'serving the republicans'.

In other words, we are, contrary to the title of your little essay, not using republican talking points from the left, we are using leftist talking points. We are discussing and criticizing this administration and this shitty legislation from a progressive leftist democratic socialist perspective. If the truth about what just went down 'serves republicans' that is not our fault. Perhaps you should consider who's fault that is.

Your proposal it seems is that we should either shut up about the reality of the situation or lie about it. No thanks. I will reluctantly support this hideously compromised bill, but I will not pretend that it doesn't stink.

[Liberation Angel]

41. I do not mean a legitimate critique, I mean the Obama=Bush no dime's difference BS

That is trumpeted here over and over.

It is the republicans' wet dream.

"Obama is a snake. A liar. A sellout!"

THAT is what I am talking about.

NOT honest critiques. I have plenty of honest critiques of Obama here at DU. Bu I was particularly riled when a revered old DUer compared Obama to a deadly lying snake. It borders on something I dare not even describe ...

well, maybe,


racism

or at least hate

and spreading hate for Obama is what the republicans want (that is my point)

[Warren Stupidity]

43. " I mean the Obama=Bush no dime's difference BS" - not a republican talking point.

On many issues the Obama administration is very disappointing continuation of Cheney-Bush policies. Again - are we supposed to shut up about this fact? Are we supposed to lie about it and pretend it is not so?

Oh and now it is racist to criticize Obama?

If the administration, and if our congressional delegations would stop ACTING LIKE CENTER-RIGHT REPUBLICANS we who actually are on the left might stop pointing out this inconvenient truth.

[Zhade]

69. +googleplex

NT!

[Liberation Angel]

72. I think calling Obama a snake and a liar is possibly racist

but we are speaking politics so I can't say if a white guy would get the same business so it is just a gut feeling that people sometimes LIKE to call him names and denigrate him and maybe it is easier for them to do it like that because he is a person of some color.

Look - I agree that the critiqus are valuable and necessary. i suport that.

But lies and damn lies and foolish lies and insults and saying there is no difference ONLY HELPS THE REPUBLICANS!

AND it is a damn lie.

[Warren Stupidity]

130. I think you have tacked off onto argument #3 in this thread

which tactic is, to put it mildly, really dishonest.

[sabrina 1]

35. Actually, if Republicans believed Obama was a 'corporate

whore' they would love him.

Their talking point regarding Obama is that he is a Socialist, Communist, terrorist supporting, Big Government Leftie. In this country, it is for more preferable to be seen as a 'corporate whore' than as a 'Socialist'. That is the scariest thing you can call anyone, and Democrats are terrified, including Obama, of being labeled a 'Socialist'.

So, I wouldn't worry, Republicans will never compliment Obama by calling him a 'Corporate Whore'. He will always be referred to by them as a dreaded 'Socialist'.

Example ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMatmRZZxVQ

[Liberation Angel]

47. They don't believe it but they want US to believe it

They want the left to believe he is a sellout

oldest right wing trick in the books:

tarnish progressives as agents of the right

even when they are not

[sabrina 1]

98. I don't care what the right thinks or says about anything, so

they have no influence over my thinking. They are irrelevant as far as shaping my thinking. I understand your point, but I wouldn't worry about it. What we need to focus on is the Democratic Party and how to make it work for the principles it claims to represent.

Sadly, we didn't need the right to tarnish anything this time. Democrats themselves have provided all the fodder they need to do so. In the past it was easy to refute the smears from the right. But when our party allows people like Lieberman and Rahm Emanuel, and Ben Nelson to set the agenda, we have way more to worry about than what the right is saying. However it does bother me that they have handed the Right a possible winner for the next election with this bill. That would be a disaster for the country.

People don't like this bill. Over 67% are opposed to mandated insurance. This is way beyond worrying about the right. I am worried about losing even more of our rights and especially worried because this time I can't blame Republicans. They are no longer in charge.

[sendero]

134. No...

... it is a fact. One that apparently you have not come to terms with yet.


Republicans don't call him a corporate whore, that would be the pot calling the kettle black and they know it wouldn't fly. No, they just harp on the pervasive and extensive bailouts and they are right.

There is no such thing as free money, anywhere in the system. At some future date, all of these giveaways will have to stop and what then?

[MetaTrope]

14. On the first day of Christmas, Obama gave to me...a tortured detainee...

Shouldn't be difficult to come up with 11 more verses.

[liberalmuse]

17. I think you're confusing him with Bush.

Last time I checked, Obama was trying to clean up Bush's disasters without creating more disasters. WTF have you done? Whine? Criticize? So you expect one man to clean up 8 years of shit in less than a year? Less than two years? While you and so many others whine and demonize him rather than try to do something??? UnFUCKINGreal. This is a sad, sad country. Americans truly are the most spoiled, whiny, puling bitches on the planet. WAAAAAAAAH! I want it NOOOOOOW!!!!!

[EFerrari]

21. That's right. Let's defer gratification like "grown ups".

Let's wait until the criminals at Goldman Sachs take the toilet paper roll, too. And Americans are born indebted to insurance companies. And polar bears go the way of respect for working people.

That's what good citizens would do in your happy, happy country, right?

And forget about gay people being slaughtered in Honduras with a wink and a nod from Clinton's State Department or all those al Qaida leaders being killed in Afghanistan and Iraq and Pakistan and now Yemen that were disguised as women and children.

Let's just wait for it. It's only 11 months, 1 song and a 2 minute prayer.

[Xicano]

34. +10

We're not the ones abandoning Democratic values and principles. That distinction goes to the so-called Democratic leadership.

I've always enjoyed reading your posts EFerrari. You're the first one I'm adding to my buddy list.

[EFerrari]

121. Felicidades!

:hi:

[FLAprogressive]

37. that is THE perfect response.

[Zhade]

71. Amazing response. What you said, and then some.

NT!

[Jamastiene]

104. +1

[PVnRT]

114. See, this is an example of right-wing talking points

Keyboard warriors who don't do anything but whine about the President. Yep, where have we heard that before?

Talk about unfuckingbelieveable.

[EFerrari]

123. So, you missed the story about CIA directing torture in the West Bank?

On Obama's watch?

Or, the fact that he's put McChrystal in a leadership position when that war criminal also hid abused prisoners from the ICRC?

Or that his administration is turning a blind eye to the slaughter of leftists, many of them gay, in Honduras right now?

Those aren't right wing talking points. That's reality. That you can confuse reality with talking points should give you pause.

[Last Stand]

124. Weak.

That's all just collateral damage in our never-ending War on Terrah.

Civil Rights are just so yesterday, so pre-Democracy. Right now, the only thing that matters is that we will do everything wrong in our power to make everything right. Promise.

So get on the Obama train because "Either you're with us or against us."

[Liberation Angel]

56. Obama stopped torture, is closing gitmo, is ending the war in Iraq...

he is the opposite of Bush

but I appreciate the dark humor

[EFerrari]

125. Are you sure Obama stopped torture?

CIA working with Palestinian security agents

US agency co-operating with Palestinian counterparts who allegedly torture Hamas supporters in West Bank

Palestinian security agents who have been detaining and allegedly torturing supporters of the Islamist organisation Hamas in the West Bank have been working closely with the CIA, the Guardian has learned.

Less than a year after Barack Obama signed an executive order that prohibited torture and provided for the lawful interrogation of detainees in US custody, evidence is emerging the CIA is co-operating with security agents whose continuing use of torture has been widely documented by human rights groups.

The relationship between the CIA and the two Palestinian agencies involved – Preventive Security Organisation (PSO) and General Intelligence Service (GI) – is said by some western diplomats and other officials in the region to be so close that the American agency appears to be supervising the Palestinians' work.

One senior western official said: "The Agency consider them as their property, those two Palestinian services." A diplomatic source added that US influence over the agencies was so great they could be considered "an advanced arm of the war on terror".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/17/cia-palestinian-security-agents

[MetaTrope]

133. And how about Bagram?

NYT/WashPost: Torture in Obama's Bagram Prison

The biggest news, not noted in either story, may be the degree to which much of the U.S. population, and in particular liberals who backed the successful presidential campaign of Barack Obama, who became the first African-American chief executive in U.S. history, have been in denial over the poor record of President Obama on the issue of torture and detention policies. The President began with a big series of presidential orders that supposedly ended the Bush administration's policy of torturing prisoners, and shut down the CIA's black site prisons.

But as we know now, not all the black site prisons were shut down. Nor was the torture ended. Whether its beatings and forced-feedings at Guantanamo, or the kinds of torture described at Bagram, it's obvious that torture has not been rooted out of U.S. military-intelligence operations. In fact, by way of the Obama administration's recent approval of the Bush-era Army Field Manual on interrogations, with its infamous Appendix M, which allows for much of the kind of torture practiced at Bagram, the White House has institutionalized a level of torture that was introduced by the previous administration, but which has been studied and devised over the last fifty or sixty years.

[HughMoran]

15. Very nicely said - I think many of the same thoughts on a daily basis

The question concerning the overflowing of excessively negative rhetoric is "to what end"? What is the end result of tearing down the party and many of our politicians? If it's not changing the end result of legislation (that hasn't & probably won't happen), then is the purpose to replace the ones who are seen as the most egregious offenders? In many cases, those who would replace these "corporatists" will indeed be Republicans, who are the ultimate corporatists. Some even think this is OK as they would rather have a Repub than a DINO. I can see that point from a purist perspective, but if we lose enough Congresspeople, even the most progressive Congresspeople will be powerless and have no say. Is is possible that some were happier when we were the opposition party? I can see that in some. There is also an old line of thinking that describes how the Democrats always fall prey to this "turning on their own" and that in many cases the instigating is done surreptitiously by Republicans. I don't buy the latter argument, but I can't help but wonder why it is that Dems all too often feel the need to destroy the good for lack of the perfect.

[rwheeler31]

22. It is getting so over the top, I know people are stressed,

but attacking people who are trying to help is strange. I love the discussion here, but I fear we are sending the wrong message.

[HughMoran]

33. Certainly the message is not helpful

Since liberal blogs get regular coverage on MSNBC for one, there is an actual effect from the constant barrage of "we won't settle for less than...!" The problem is, the effect has been the opposite of what we would like to have happen. The Dems are getting annoyed at the harsh rhetoric and I can't blame them. If we're supposed to be their "constructive criticism" supporters, then what indeed does the enemy sound like? Could the enemy get away with some of the hardcore rhetoric that is spoken here? I'm not sure. One thing IS for sure, if you want to be taken seriously, don't run up and scream in your friends face that he will comply or you'll find another friend. That's just not an effective technique.

[The_Casual_Observer]

18. "Progressives" want the other guy to return to a communal agrarian

society, while they live in Manhattan or LA & write about it.

[rwheeler31]

30. I am sorry you feel you cannot move but we did not

make you stay where you are.

[EFerrari]

23. We're not "forever destroying" anything. We don't have that kind of power.

We can't even get our Congressional representatives to take our calls.

Seriously, we're just not that important to them. You can relax.

[Liberation Angel]

27. I am talking about reinforcing the negativity and disillusionment of young progressives

when instead of consolidating our activism and opposing the right wing agenda we are attacking our own.

2012 looms large and if enough lefties give up on Obama and other dems the repubs will tear back like velocoraptors and eat our flesh and suck us dry.

[rwheeler31]

38. You are right, Do young people care about the law?

We may have an opportunity to change the court in the next few years. It matters who is in charge.

[Liberation Angel]

42. Obama already changed the law with Sotomayor

she was not as progressive as I'd want but she is damn better than any rethug would give us.

[Zhade]

73. I wonder, do they care about the rule of law?

You know, the one obama ignored by refusing -- REFUSING -- to prosecute the b*s* cabal for their crimes?

The kids are learning, and what they're learning ain't alright. They're learning that major crimes don't get punished.

[Liberation Angel]

101. Holder is still investigating - that shoe MAY drop one of these days

Obama doesn't decide.

Holder does

so I am waiting on this to se what he does

but they work in secrecy

so it may take time and will take patience

How productive do you think Obama could be if we were wrapped up in prosecutions viewed as purely political?

[Hannah Bell]

61. This admin is reinforcing disillusionment when it uses "hope" & "change" to sell

a business-as-usual candidate.

[Liberation Angel]

74. How is Obama "Business as usual" after 8 years of Bush?

That doesn't compute.

[griffi94]

85. well said

[Liberation Angel]

120. It has to be repeated to get through the thickest and stubbornest skulls

Obama does not = Bush

Not EVER!

[EFerrari]

122. You know, sometimes facing reality and especially when it comes to

what you can control and what you can't control is the best thing a person can do for themselves and for their community.

And when "our" agenda forwards right wing goals, I for one won't be supporting it.

[notesdev]

24. What disturbs me more

is Republican policy masquerading as Democratic policy, e.g. bank bailouts, wars, corporatism.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. !

!
!
!

[Xicano]

36. +10

Exactly!

[leftstreet]

39. +1

[BP2]

29. You "still billers" out there need to understand that the President

will be harmed far worse if this bill does NOT make it through Conference, than if Barack just puts his foot down,
starts it over again and has Congress do it right to cover all Americans.


Today, when Senate Democrats won the last round of votes before tomorrow's big vote, Reid organized a news conference. He didn't have all 60 Democrat
Senators there with him. Only 54 were present: Senator Byrd wasn't there as he needs his rest, and Senator Akaka seemingly had a prior engagement.

Guess who else wasn't there today with Reid: Senators Lincoln, Landrieu, LIEberman and Nelson. The four Moderates that almost ended HCR in the first place!

Any one of them could change their mind in Conference and then we'd be in for a world of hurt in late January. So would Barack!

As it stands, the other people also in a world of hurt are the millions of Americans who are still without health care, even if these four Moderates
don't change their minds - again.

Kill the Bill, start over, and get it right!

[Avalux]

45. You "kill billers" are living in a dream world.

Do you seriously think that this bill can be killed and we can start over, just like that?? Learn some history and start dealing with reality.

[BP2]

55. Do you really think that

If 60 Democratic Senators can't get the Public Option now, they can get it in two months?

:think: The answer is no. We are stuck with what we have now out of the Senate.

If you're okay with that, your expectations must be pretty low too.

[Avalux]

58. First -

the bill must go to conference w/the House bill. Second, the final bill will be the beginning and from there, we work to make it better. Getting this piece of legislation passed is an enormous accomplishment and it mystifies me that others don't 'get' that.

It's a beginning.

[BP2]

79. It's only an enormous accomplishment if it passes. I wish

Senators Lincoln, Landrieu, LIEberman and Nelson could have been asked their positions at the Democrat Senator's press conference today.

But because those 4 Moderates weren't there with the other 50 Senators present, reporters never got the chance to ask.


It's going to be a long 26 days between when the Senate adjourns tomorrow and when the meet again in January.

Glad to see you're so confident one of those Moderates won't cave in the next 4 weeks.

However, I find your confidence without merit or reason, given the current political landscape on both the Left and the fRight regarding HCR.

[IndianaGreen]

50. The choice is between Obama and our collective wallets

I'll vote for our wallets!

[BP2]

57. I'd rather vote for both if

at all possible.

[IndianaGreen]

40. More and more I see Republican ideas masquerading as Democratic policies

We should all be afraid!

:scared:

[Liberation Angel]

44. But you never liked the dems or Obama much as I recall.

But I would NOT say this is happening more and more.

The shift is to the left --- to the left of center --- on many issues.

Maybe to center for me or you, but still further to the left of the spectrum

I do NOT think it is a shift to the right at all.

[IndianaGreen]

48. To the left of Mussolini is still fascism

Blue Dogs are way to the right, there is nothing moderate about this bunch of Rockefeller Republicans.

[Liberation Angel]

51. huh?

EVERYTHING left of Mussolini is fascism?

That doesn't even make sense.

It IS a spectrum and dems come in all aspects.

What about Sanders? He's a socialist and he supports this bill?

Does that make him a rockefeller republican?

[IndianaGreen]

54. Spanish Dictator Francisco Franco is to the left of Mussolini

[BP2]

49. More and more I see Progressives who are willing to allow

their President make a mistake for himself, our party and the people who need genuine HCR.

Blind loyalty is no replacement for using the intellect that help get Barack elected in the first place.

:freak: I can't see how DEMANDS for the PO, the re-importation of pharmaceuticals,
and insurance price controls are "Republican ideas masquerading as Democratic policies."

[IndianaGreen]

52. Taxing union-won health benefits is a Republican idea

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=210673

[BP2]

70. Letting Big Pharma and Big Insurance get bigger and

more entrenched is a Puke idea, too. Guess what? We're there with this Senate bill!

You'd think the GOP wrote those parts of the Senate bill themselves. But no, it was written by the Lobbyists with the help of Reid.

There's compromise, and then there misbehavior before the enemy. You can figure out for yourself what's going on with the shit bill they're voting for in about 6 hrs.

Barack does not have to sign the HCR bill he's given.

Reid has been in his position since 2006. HCR is not Reid idea - it's Barack's.

[Jamastiene]

103. You are right.

Those are definitely not Republican ideas.

"I can't see how DEMANDS for the PO, the re-importation of pharmaceuticals,
and insurance price controls are "Republican ideas masquerading as Democratic policies."

[omega minimo]

53. "Compromises"? "INCREMENTAL"?

"BUT ARE WE FOREVER DESTROYING THE CHANCE FOR INCREMENTAL PROGRESSIVE AND PRACTICAL CHANGE BY ATTACKING AND DESTROYING OBAMA AND MANY OF THE DEMOCRATS WHO WANT TO GIVE US WHAT WE WANT BUT WHO HAVE HAD TO MAKE COMPROMISES DUE TO THE ALMOST INSURMOUNTABLE POWER AND INFLUENCE of the CORPOROFASCIST OPPOSITION?"


How do you fit your brain around both acknowledging the "ALMOST INSURMOUNTABLE POWER AND INFLUENCE of the CORPOROFASCIST OPPOSITION" and the fact of Dem majorities and presidency AND call for "incremental change" controlled by enforced "compromises"?

You acknowledge "corporofascim" with its hooks in our government being "almost insurmountable" yet pretend its influence does not extend across "both side of the aisle"?

There are some brave souls on the Hill who stand up essentially alone to champion We The People. At the moment, President Obama is not one of them. We do not know what forces are to bear on him and our reps in Congress.

But when we know those forces are "corporofascist." we'd better question our assumptions about who is on which side.

[Liberation Angel]

66. Of course corporate fascism influences politicians

on both sides of the aisle.

where did you cook up quotes for that because I never said it.

My POINT is that Obama is up against incredible odds and he is NOT a corporate fascist : i.e. he is NOT one of the fascist elites who is driven solely by racism, power and greed.

If you do not consider Obama brave soul I do not know what planet you think you are on but in my estimation th man is risking his life everyday for what he believes is right.

As an African American man with a belief in many leftish and progressive ideals he is a danger to the established order of fascists.

He does not subscribe to fascist ideals.

I have serious differences with him on policy and find he is too procorporate (because he is NOT a socialist and is happily a capitalist supporter) but that does NOT mean his policies are dictated by a fascist agenda as they were under the Bush regimes. I believe they are dictated by what he BELIEVES is best for the world and for our country and NOT for the fascist elites.

[omega minimo]

80. I hate these fucking word games

I put quotes around what you said and words you used------- AND around "both sides of the aisle" because that is a term that in this context is in question AS IN "both sides of the aisle."

"where did you cook up quotes for that because I never said it." Don't be daft.


It appears you did not attempt to read my post, comprehend my post or answer my post but carry on some crusade of an OP, without actual discussion.

Bully for you. :thumbsdown:



And for the record, there were a number of ??? in my post, intended to invite you to respond to questions, rather than what you chose to do, which is swing a bag of nickels at another DUer. Great.

[Liberation Angel]

87. Well - your questions seemed rhetorical. And..

okay, quotation marks for an idiom or expression make sense, but it is not what i said.

I responded to what I understood your rhetoric to mean and where i disagreed with it.

The influence of corporate fascism IS on both sides of the aisle. It is EVERYWHERE.

BUT

It is greater on the republican side and those who say it is not do not understand history.

while democrats may not be the best choice they are a better choice than rethugs.

and by hurting the party we hurt the better choice.

If we drag Obama into a place where we all coo that he is just another republican lite, we do an injustice to the truth AND we harm future prospects for our children and our planet.


I wrap my head arpund this by understanding the historical context: Total Fascism is being challenged by Obama. He cannot eradicate it but he can reduce its influence and that alone is HUGE to me so we need to support as much of that effort as we can while also attacking the influence of corporofascists in his own party and in his own cabinet and the executive branch. THEY still have influence over him even if he is not one of them

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

63. Escalating a lost war is not a "minor point" of disagreement.

Nor is bailing out banks, insurance companies, and pharmaceuticals.

[Zhade]

77. It sure wouldn't be if it was the OP's family being murdered at wedding parties.

NT!

[Liberation Angel]

102. Okay - I'll own that. You are right...BUT

my point is more directed at the health care bill rhetoric

NOT so much the issue of the wars

I agree with you in that, as I said in another post, Obama is in a triage situation.

Bush unleashed a global war which Obama has to try to eliminate or at least reduce as much as he can...

I oppose the escalation in Afghanistan and my worst fears are that a corporofascist agenda is at work and is too influential on Obama...

However, I also believe that Obama is sincere in his policies that HE believes will ultimately reduce conflict and make the world more peaceful: his Nobel speech defined that idea very well, even if I do not agree with it: it IS a policy matter: how do you end a war where the violence may get worse for the population if you do not try to eradicate or pacify those who ALSO promote violence.

I do not pretend to have the answer on that BUT it is STILL a policy matter where Obama;s belief system says that it is necessary to use violent force in this situation: his Nobel speech arguments are compelling in many ways even if they are not totally convincing.

I will concede that if it were my family killed in a drone strike and they were noncombatants that it would be a war crime. I feel the same way even when it is NOT my family.

But, again, their is a spectrum of policies from worse to better and on THAT spectrum assessing Obama vs the viable alternatives, I say that Obama is better than what we will probably get in the future if we keep attacking him and we lose seats or lose the presidency in 2012. I would support a peace candidate IF he/she was a viable alternative -- but absent that I have to support the best option available, even when it is not the option I wish were available.

[Hekate]

65. KnR. Sorry my Rec doesn't register. nt

[Liberation Angel]

67. Maybe you recc'd already

but thanks

I won't forget it

[Zhade]

68. How exactly do you breathe through all that sand?

NT!

[kiva]

76. Guess it's a matter of perspective.

I see a lot of people saying the same things right-wingers did under * - you know, things like 'you are with us or against us' and 'we should support the president or the other party will take control and kill all of the kittens and dwarfs' (OK, I made up the kittens and dwarfs part).

As to your concern about young progressives and Democrats being permanently alienated from politics, which do you really think is more alienating - discovering that the hope and change they worked for is just political rhetoric or reading/posting on a message board? I also am concerned about how to keep young voters mobilized and enthused, but mandates and trading off women's health care and a failure to address GLBT issues and expanding our troop presence in Afghanistan are not ways to keep young people engaged in the process.

[Liberation Angel]

83. I think that be diminishing the good that has been done alienates them

as well as the bad policies.

You make very valid points

BUT

the rhetoric of disillusionment and the platitudes of the posters who say NOTHING good and give Obama NO credit for positive change and actually continually are beginning to rant in a hateful way HURTS the progressive cause.

It is like Stalinist policies where leaders who did not tow the party line were executed. Obama isn't doing what WE might do but he is doing what he believes will work best under the circumstances: in many ways Obama is in a triage situation where he is saving the patients he can save and sacrificing some ideals to salvage others. We may not approve of the choices he makes but my point is that he is TRYING to do as much as he can given his belief systems and his ideals. We may not agree with them but they are better than the alternatives of a republican nightmare where they ONLY serve the corporofascist elites.

MAYBE he is a really smart man who has a plan for the long term which will work out for the best.

But none of us can stop crying for what has to be sacrificed for what may be the greater good: BECAUSE BUSH put us in a crisis and what Obama has to deal with is a critical situation. He can't save us all at once. And he can't save us all.

[TomCADem]

78. K & R - The Far Right Is Apparently The New Left

[cliffordu]

81. K&R -- Excellent post, and I believe illustrates

the idea that there is an organized group of faux activists.....The ones spouting right wing talking points.

[joeybee12]

82. Sorry, but going backwards is not incremental change...

...it's incremental capitulation...sell-out to big insurance, throwing glbt under the bus (even before the inauguration), endless war in Afghanistan because he's afraid of McChrystal...I could go on and on, but facts mean nothing to someone who won't open his/her eyes.

[NMMNG]

84. "If you're not with us you're with the terrorists!1!1"

Who is using Republican talking points?

[BP2]

89. Ironically, the Pukes all supported Bush - w/o question - on the

Patriot Act.

Surely some of them could see the repercussions, but didn't care.

"Just pass it, it's better than nothing."

Just like today, with some Progressives here, on this crap heap :puke: Senate HCR bill!

[BP2]

86. I don't see a whole lot of Progressives who are SUPPORTING the Senate bill who

actually challenging Barack, as you say. I see a lot of butt kissing here, along with
settling for whatever you can get, no matter how bad it is for the millions of people who are left out.

As you also point out, he is human, prone to mistakes.

He's getting bad advice from the same people who screwed up HCR negotiations in the first place!

I submit it's a further mistake to blindly support him, instead of reminding him of
some of the most fundamental portions of HCR that he, deep down, still truly believes in.

[apocalypsehow]

90. The determined defense of the use of Blackface by some so-called "progressives" is disgusting. They

should be shunned by genuine liberals and true progressives in the DU community.

[jonnyblitz]

92. i haven't seen anybody defending the use of blackface

you're fucking hallucinating.

[apocalypsehow]

95. Then you haven't been paying attention. n/t.

[BP2]

96. Since when did

"check your brain at the door" become a job prerequisite of "genuine liberals and true progressives?" We're a smarter lot than that - at least most of us are.

Put down the coolaid jug and demand more from the President we elected last year. Come on, you can do it. Put the jug down and listen.


Barack is a master negotiator. He can pull off getting the PO and everything else he wants back in the bill. Have faith in him, for gods sake!

But Barack won't do it if he keeps listening to the same advisers that screwed this up for him in the first place. You're going to have to scream a little louder.

Lastly, save the empty "Blackface" racism charge for those who truly deserve it, not for those of us who are fighting to get ALL minorities coverage via Obama's HCR.

[dysfunctional press]

91. you should have been around when clinton was president....

just about every republican initiative that he signed into law was praised by a lot of supposed leftists because he had a capital "D" after his name.

there are still plenty around that to this day think that he was some sort of democratic superman. and not all of them are dlc-oids.

[jonnyblitz]

93. seems to me like you don't know the difference between

a left wing talking point and a right wing talking point. you just can't make up your own definitions.

[ipaint]

97. Lefty rhetoric is a right wing term that has been used to smear obama.

Interesting choice of words.

[Liberation Angel]

108. I am talking about actual rhetoric coming from the left and socalled progressives

which is tearing Obama and the democratic party down over points which the republicans WANT us to kill each other over.

Lefty rhetoric in this context means republican designed rhetoric which progressive lefties are falling for even though they don't know it or know it is what the republicans WANT.
NOT every critique amounts to that, but many do and one, today, in particular seemed really destructive comapring Obama to a deadly snake who lies and attacks the innocent. That is what touched off my OP. It is a dirty smear. It smells of a right wing meme which is intentionally or inadvertently being spread by those claiming to support dems and the left.

[nofurylike]

113. it is intentional. and it reveals they are scared. hang in and

hang on.
excellent OP and defense. thank you for your perseverance, Liberation Angel.


peace

[Liberation Angel]

117. thanks for this - IS IT INTENTIONALLY a Rovian scare/propaganda tactic?

I mean the hate here sounds JUST LIKE the teabaggers.

Calling Obama a snake and a liar is just like anything you read on Free Republic.

Why do some here at DU embrace that hate and those lies?

I know people get confused by all this bs and WANT to do the right thing and oppose tyranny etc tc etc...

But when is incremental progress in the face of such opposition a CRIME and a LIE and an excuse for hateful denigration?

When it helps defeat progressive causes, that's when.

Qui Bono from all this hate and the lies?

Republicans and fascists.

Who loses?

Progressives and Democrats.

[nofurylike]

136. there are true disinformers on DU. i notice the poster replying to

this query used the "it's all in your troubled head" tactic. as if it were not obvious that there are such people swarming on DU these days.

the thing is, it is why i admire your tenacity. they are fiercely arrogant and condescending at their work, more so as passage (or any success by obama) gets closer, and you called it out quite strongly. thank you for that. it's more than many of us have done.

yes, all that will lose is us. standing up to them, informing people, is very important.


peace and solidarity

[ipaint]

118. Well if that is what you percieve, I don't blame you for being afraid.

Being the perpetual victim, always having to back down and settle for much less than is needed in all legislation, is a scary place to be when folks who aren't afraid of the big bad right in either party start pushing back.

If your fear causes you to make up something called "republican designed leftie rhetoric" out of thin air and create a fictional narrative around, I guess... whatever gets you through the day. Loss of control is scary.

Something tells me your going to have to get used to it, though. This administration is creating a vacuum on the left that folks who aren't afraid to stand on principle, democratic principles, will gladly fill.

Personally I think it's the best thing that's happened in 30 years. It's been a long wait but business as usual, the old sausage making that strips anything useful to citizens out bills, has to change. The kind of reform we need from this country isn't going to come from inside the beltway.

[AuntPatsy]

100. K & R

[yurbud]

110. surrender to a handful of corrupt Democrats is not an unavoidable political reality

you are mistaking excuses for actual reasons.

[Le Taz Hot]

115. Unrec.

for reasons too numerous and obvious to name.

Apparently the memo from Emmanuel came in and the sheep are busily spreading the "if you're on this board and you don't goose-step to Das Party Line, you are a paid operative." <yawn>

[Liberation Angel]

119. No --- I never said folks were paid to spew hate and lies in this thread or subject

although some may be.

I AM saying that spewing lies and calling Obama a snake is Rovian or woefully ignorant.

BTW, I have little love for Rahm, but he is good at what he does as an enforcer: but he is not what I would prefer and I wish he would go. He is a fierce pit bull, though, which cuts both good nd bad for Obama and the country.

[mmonk]

116. You must live in their simplified world (no offense meant).

I don't consider my fellow "centrists" as lefties at all. New Deal progressives (traditional liberals) are fighting two fronts.

[Kansas Wyatt]

127. When did the Democratic Platform become....

Putting Corporate America above the American People and the American People at the mercy of Corporate America?

Maybe you should address that glaring problem of your dear leadership, before you point fingers at the peasants.

[earth mom]

128. Actions speak louder than words-Obama is NOT trying-he is giving the farm away to corporate America!

Make no mistake, the teabaggers and rethugs secretly love what's he's doing.

Which is why your OP is TOTAL BULLSHIT.

UNREC!!!!

[Blasphemer]

129. I see the opposite... GOP attacks on liberals being used by Dems against Dems... nt

[Ignis]

131. I support the Democratic Party platform; how about you?

From the 2008 published platform:

Covering All Americans and Providing Real Choices of Affordable Health Insurance Options.

Families and individuals should have the option of keeping the coverage they have or choosing from a wide array of health insurance plans, including many private health insurance options and a public plan. Coverage should be made affordable for all Americans with subsidies provided through tax credits and other means.

Platform here: http://www.democrats.org/a/party/platform.html
PDF download: http://www.democrats.org/pdfs/2004platform.pdf

[freddie mertz]

132. I'd be with you if I felt the president was still being honest.

If I could believe he put up a good fight for the principles he embraced at the outset, and that he would do his best right up through the last negotiations, I would be with you.

But he's been weirdly passive and shockingly dishonest, which does not exactly bode well.

I think he needs to contribute to the healing for the good of us all.

Happy holidays.

[Junkdrawer]

135. Wow. This is the first time I've ever heard that talking point...

Why, it's almost like we're teabaggers...

Yawn...