If, during the campaign, Obama had said he would mandate that everyone be required to purchase

[ixion]

health insurance, it would have hurt his chances, don't you think?

Be honest.

He specifically said he did not support mandates during the election, and that he changed his mind later.

[MercutioATC]

1. ...or if he said he was going to leave both DADT and NAFTA in place as they are?

Yeah, I'll bet those empty campaign promises helped him too.

[griffi94]

46. i agree with you

but i think the mandated insurance would have been a deal breaker.
nobody wants to be forced to buy a potentially crappy product from a private for profit insurance companies. this flip flop is not only the most noticable it's impossible to ignore.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

77. Isn't DADT coming up in the defense authorization bill next year?

I don't know about NAFTA but has he pledged NOT to sign a repeal of DADT yet?

[cliffordu]

88. Shh...You'll interrupt the fake activist hate threads.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

90. Ooops.......you're right......sorry!!!!

:hide:

[leeroysphitz]

2. We didn't get the president we wanted we got the president we deserved.

[still_one]

5. Who is we? /nt

[TheMadMonk]

49. Damned near the whole gods bedamned lot of you.

With your multiple millions for dickheads who's only ability is to look and sound good in front of a camera.
Ditto for even more brain dead idiots who while being able to handle a ball or sing, require three tries to spell the word.
Your never ending fascination with the private lives of the above. Particularly when they implode, explode, die, get caught fucking or just plain fucking up.

With your $200 shoes made at a cost of $2 by enslaved children.

With your endless need and greed to possess the latest and the greatest.

With your prideful wastefullness.

With the bigotry and hatred that far too many of you so proudly display for all the world to see.

With your pride in ignorance and denigration of anything that requires an actual mind to achieve.


"We" is the America that encompasses (and embraces) all of the above and trumpets its superiority on the basis of these very attributes.

[DIKB]

78. I wanna K&R

JUST for your post alone.

[Jamastiene]

81. Can't argue with that. It's true. n/t

[cliffordu]

89. Wish I could K&R your particular post.

Fucking perfect.

[Donnachaidh]

3. wait for the baying jackals to hit this thread.

They are all up early.

Strange thing though -- all the high numbered posts on the greatest page are posts of people questioning this mandated give away. The chorus is having an EPIC FAIL in changing the attitudes of the majority of the readers here.

THAT is heartening.

[ixion]

6. Indeed. I was thinking about that yesterday

despite all the snark that's been flying around here, the DLC'ers have been largely unsuccessful in bringing us "on message"

That's one of the things that is great about DU. :woohoo:

[KittyWampus]

8. baying jackals? Oh, and those of us who aren't reactionary screamers are barely bothering to post

in GD.

Enjoy your cesspool.

You and your ilk are doing NOTHING to improve things except fight yesterday's battles.

The very definition of a Reactionary Screamer.

[AllentownJake]

13. You miss your picture threads of BO the White House Dog don't you nt.

[KittyWampus]

32. excuse me? Are you calling Obama the White House dog? And what have you done since the election

besides post trash on DU?

Got a link to any activist threads on DU that you've posted?

[AllentownJake]

37. I was a field organizer for a large local Democratic Campaign

Participated in a State Senate Race and have been helping out a non-profit locally since election day.

:rofl:

I need to get off my ass and try to do some good in the world.

BO is the name of the dog.

[KittyWampus]

39. Once again, that was a YEAR ago. And you've obviously done jack shit in real life since then

and posted NOTHING on DU that was constructive and fighting FOR something.

And I never started or participated in a BO thread.

[AllentownJake]

40. That was November of 2009

Or are you one of those 2-4 year voters.

State Senate Special Election PA-24th look it up, we got our asses kicked.

[Donnachaidh]

19. cesspool? Nah

That's the meeting room of the Hamsher bashers and the "Obama on High" Chorus line.

:rofl:

[AllentownJake]

29. I call it the Fall Out Shelter

Because that is where they go to hide from the reality of a bad policy.

[Jamastiene]

83. The Cheerleader Hideaway n/t

[KittyWampus]

35. Funny thing, most of us have issues with Obama & the Democratic party but we don't need to shit all

over them while ignoring the real enemies.

So, what have you done in real life to fight for the Public Option?

What activist threads did you start on DU?

Since this is so important to you that you attack other DU'ers and Demcrats, I'd figure you'd be passionate enough to fight FOR SOMETHING.

[Donnachaidh]

41. oh please

Ignoring the *real enemy*?

Sounds just like the Rovian mindset that the chorus has ingrained. Were they FREE classes?

The grownups are NOT ignoring the *enemy* - they are just refusing to fall into place and take a financial beating from the manchurian candidate in the white house.

If, in your eyes this makes the voices of dissent *the enemy* then I think that perhaps the problem lies in you, and your willingness to take sides and join in to the braying to silence the people questioning the give aways.

[griffi94]

47. i keep seeing this fight the "real enemies"

posts from the presidents more rigorous supporters.
who exactly are these real enemies. right at the moment the idiot rightwing can't find their ass with a map and a flashlight and they're not the ones saddling the country with a mandated give away to blue cross blue shield.

the real enemies you refer to are actually just made up boggeymen. the gop may manage to stage a rally of sorts but it will be limited and ineffective because their rank & file have purged everybody to the left of atilla the hun.
what needs to be fought isn't some made up boogeyman but rather the goddamned status quo.
the democrats and obama in particular ran on that very proposition.
too bad it was all just campaign show biz

[AllentownJake]

66. Eastasia

and we have always been fighting them.

[treestar]

73. Next time I read that the poor put upon progressives are being

insulted - I'll be able to point to this to refute the idea only they are getting insulted, told to shut up, etc.

[still_one]

4. For those who refuse to buy insurance, as I understand it the cost penalty will not be significant

[ixion]

10. perhaps, but it will still be a fine, and refusal to pay will bring the IRS down on your head

I'm all for making healthcare more available to people. I just don't think it ought to be done via the insurance agencies, since, like Wall St., they're part of the problem. And now they're quasi federal agencies. That disturbs the hell out of me.

[still_one]

12. and that can be changed when a public or single-payer is added later /nt

[Justyce]

16. *When*? I think you mean *if*. nt

[still_one]

20. This is a work in progress. You don't agree? Then we have a difference of opinion /nt

[Kansas Wyatt]

26. Ever heard of NAFTA?

That worked out really well for the American People didn't it?

[AllentownJake]

33. Don't worry we'll fix it later

:rofl:

Yes because with 60 Senators you couldn't pass something good. I'm sure when you have 55 you are going to pass something awesome.

[still_one]

53. So what are you going to do, because this bill will become law, and I don't think you are going to

like it. I don't like it

Will I continue to tell my representatives to move toward a public option or single-payer, of course. Will I try to get more progressives elected? Of course

but if it doesn't happen tomorrow, will I say screw the Democratic party?

HELL NO

[still_one]

51. This is NOT NAFTA. Ever hear of Social Security or Medicare. What does that mean?

[Kansas Wyatt]

74. You are the one championing passing pure SHIT with "hopes" of changing it later.

Just like NAFTA.

This fucking SHIT Bill is nothing close to Social Security or Medicare.

Today's President and Congress would NEVER had passed Social Security or Medicare, without grandiose giveaways to Corporate America attached, rendering them useless. And do keep in mind that President "Change" & "ENOUGH!" could have obliterated ANY Congress member standing in the way of REAL reform.

Are you playing in daddy's Insurance Industry cubicle today?
Did he promise you a shiny quarter for every post you made?

[tsuki]

30. Won't happen. The Insurance parasites now own health care. The

only thing that this bill has is a path to retreat.

[fascisthunter]

86. they own and control our means to a healthy life

think about that... and if we don't go along with it, our government will make us pay fines. We are definitely becoming a fascist nation... no doubt about it.

[Donnachaidh]

31. *can be changed* is NOT *will be changed*

You really think after this give away to their corporate contributors that either party is going to re-visit this to change it?

I have some real estate you'll just LOVE if you do believe that. :rofl:

[still_one]

54. OK, then work to get progressives elected, what else are you going to do? /nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

63. The comedians are out in force today.

[Donnachaidh]

21. $950 is quite high for single unemployed people, especially if they don't have it

But hey, they are just working class - they.don't.count.

[terrell9584]

28. And they'll all be pissed next year

One thing that has been missed in all the propaganda about how the economy is improving when it isn't is just how hard young workers have been hit by this economic downturn, and it has been especially hard on recent college graduates, who are too educated to get hat and nametag jobs because managers are threatened by them and who can't get entry level college grad jobs either as they have all been dried up.


College students were Obama's base in 2008. So far, they haven't gotten a good return for their efforts and when they're slapped with this penalty I feel that it won't be good. I understand perfectly the intellectual rationale behind mandatory insurance and it admittedly makes sense. The problem is, it goes against the freedom of choice that has always been a part of the American spirit and it is likely to drive those for who it will be the highest burden absolutely bonkers.

[Donnachaidh]

36. Bingo -- could not have said it better myself

Obama must really not want a second term, because the changes he has made are completely screwing those little people who got him in to the office in the first place.

Out of touch or arrogant? I can't decide.

[dysfunctional press]

93. "College students were Obama's base in 2008."

just exactly how many separate demographic groups were 'obama's base in 2008'...? :shrug:

i've probably heard at least 4 or 5 different ones touted as being so- or as being the one that put him 'over the top'.

[kctim]

34. I will try to let you know

[ProSense]

7. What if he had said during the primary that he would consider a mandate if...

here

[no limit]

17. IN that line he said a mandate outright would be unwise.

[ProSense]

24. And then he made this point:

July 2009

I feel pretty good that I've been pretty consistent on this. The individual mandate is probably the one area where I basically changed my mind. The more deeply I got into the issue, the more I felt that the dangers of adverse selection justified us creating a system that shares responsibility, as long as we were actually making health insurance affordable and there was a hardship waiver for those who, even with generous subsidies, couldn't afford it. And that remains my position.

I think other than that we've been pretty consistent about how I think we need to approach the problem. And by the way, I in no way want to suggest that cost is more important than coverage. My point has been that those two things go hand in hand. If we can't control costs, then we simply can't afford to expand coverage the way we need to. In turn, if we can expand coverage, that actually gives us some leverage with insurers or pharmaceutical industry or others to do more to help make the health care system more cost-effective.

[WyldRogue]

45. You just showed...

...how he did a complete 180 AFTER he took office. I distintcly remember him chiding Clinton over mandates but here we are, facing mandates to purchase coverage from PRIVATE insurers (Aetna,Wellpoint,Humana,etc) but it is ok now??

People use the analogy that we are required to purchase car insurance but they can't FORCE you to buy a damn car but they are going to FORCE people to buy health insurance?

Don't spraypaint a pile of dogshyt cherry red and tell me it's cherries.

[Occulus]

55. The car insurance analogy never worked as a logical point in the first place

GOD, I am sick of that particular piece of disinformation. And yes, it's disinformation. ANYONE repeating it is being disingenuous and intellectually dishonest, and I immediately suspect the motives of anyone repeating it.

1) You always have the choice of owning or not owning a car. Always. Whether or not you feel a car is a necessity under your own particular circumstances is a different animal entirely.

2) Even if you buy a car, you only have to buy insurance if you intend to drive it on public roads. If you have 40 acres and a light truck to haul trash to the landfill in the back, you don't have to insure that light truck if you're only using it on your own private property.

3) Even if you intend to drive your car on public roads, you still don't have to buy insurance in many states if you can provide an equal form of "surety" (as Michigan law, I believe, provides for). What that means is that the very rich don't have to buy car insurance at all if they don't want to- they have the financial means- the "surety"- to provide for the payment of any costs associated with loss of property, limb, or life due to a car accident.

So can we please stop with the car insurance analogy? It doesn't work and it's full of holes.

[Jamastiene]

84. +1000000

[liberalmuse]

9. I can only speak for myself. No.

I voted for him despite my disagreeing with some of his policies and also with the way he reaches across the aisle. If my vote hinged on the health care issue alone, then maybe, but there are too many reasons that he was the best man for President.

[AllentownJake]

11. Hillary might be President, but it wouldn't hurt his chances against McCain nt.

[ProSense]

14. Yeah, with her mandates and plan to garnish wages.

She still would have lost.

[AllentownJake]

18. Oh Pro

Let's move on,

1st you assured me there would be no mandates than we got the House Bill, than you told me there would be a strong Public Option and we got the Senate Bill. You really have no credibility with me with any assurances you have to offer, your always wrong.

:rofl:

[ProSense]

25. "1st you assured me there would be no mandates" Stop making things up. n/t

[kenny blankenship]

15. if he had said "there will be NO public sector response when I am President, "

"we will just elevate the insurance companies to the status of Federal agencies that make a profit for their private shareholders. And everyone will be forced to contribute to these private profits" I think YOU KNOW he would have been chased from the Democratic primary by pitchfork wielding mobs.

[ipaint]

22. The idea was to co-opt the left.

Not represent them. Neo-liberals are just finishing up what reagan started. Then the repubs can come in and make it even more punishing.

[ixion]

44. exactly

so very true.

[donco6]

50. Yes.

It would have relegated him to Palin-level considerations.

[Juneboarder]

23. He was placed there by the republicans.

It's all a sham. Don't vote for Obama again.

[Last Stand]

62. Repugs/Dems--what's the difference?

Honestly, it's about the corporations vs. the little guy and we can't win. That thing we call politics is just a distraction that helps us think we still determine our fate.

The fact is, it's game over.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

27. During the campaign...

There were mandates for parents to provide insurance for their children and there were mandates for large companies to provide insurance for their employees.

That left adults who were either self-employed or employed at a small business who would be exempt from a mandate -- and these people and businesses would be given subsidies and tax incentives to purchase insurance if they could not afford it.

And then there's the fact that Obama said (see Prosense's post) that he WOULD consider a mandate if the plan he was proposing didn't move far enough toward universal coverage.

[DisgustedInMN]

38. Yep..

.. what we got was a classic demonstration of "bait and switch."

I don't go back to a store that using that practice.

Thanks for blowing what is probably this Nation's last opportunity to pull itself out of the tailspin, Barack.

F*cking politicians, you can't trust ANY of them.

[CrispyQ]

52. ...

"Thanks for blowing what is probably this Nation's last opportunity to pull itself out of the tailspin, Barack."

This is the main issue I have with the President. He has implemented some good changes since he took office, but main the trajectory continues to be big business as usual. The status quo has not been challenged & it won't be. His political capital was at it's most potent his first year in office & he squandered it. We are continuing along the same damned path we were on before, just at a slower pace, with a few more crumbs thrown out to appease us.

When the repubs are in the majority again, & they will be, watch the bill get "fixed." They will gut what little good is in the bill, remove any regulation, & leave the mandates. I firmly believe that further entrenching the health insurance companies in our already failed system is going to go very badly for the People.

Welcome to DU, Disgusted! There are many here who share the first part of your screen name! :hi:

[DisgustedInMN]

56. You said a mouthfull there.

Thanks for the welcome. :hi:

I came here (DU) searching for the man I stood up for as a delegate a while back. He was Candidate Barack Obama. Should you or any one else come upon him, kindly point me that direction.

[CrispyQ]

58. Truth in cartoons:

[ixion]

67. very true

thanks for posting.

[Ignis]

68. Ouch. (nt)

[Tom Rinaldo]

42. In that alternate universe

Hillary would be President, there would be mandates, and there would be a real public option. And no one can prove me wrong because this is science fiction.

[lbrtbell]

43. I agree with you

The reason I supported Obama instead of HRC is that she was talking about making health insurance mandatory, and Obama was (so we thought) against mandating it. So yeah, I wouldn't have supported him in the primary.

[Sebastian Doyle]

48. Only if he would have said so early enough that Al Gore or Howard Dean could have stepped in

....to the primary race. Hillary was already running on mandates, so she certainly wouldn't have picked up any votes that way.

[Taitertots]

57. If he said what he actually planned to do he would have been laughed out

I think that by showing that everything he has said so far has been totally different than his campaign, it is going to dramatically hurt the democratic cause in 2010 and 2012.

We were promised FDR and got stuck with another Hoover. How much worse can it get before we have to have Obamavilles?

[Echo In Light]

60. In the bigger picture, this helps Repubs, who NEEDED it, b/c the two Name Brands are required ....

... in order to keep the ruse of our system of governance ongoing in its current form.

[stillwaiting]

70. Yep. The powers that be want, and shall get, a few less Democrats in Congress.

They need to have just a little bit more plausible deniability. The wizard behind the current has been exposed. They know Democrats must lose seats at this point. Ensuring the current Democratic behavior in Congress will produce the desired result. The right wing has all of the excitement to get out there and vote right now.

[GreenArrow]

92. Divide and conquer

is the name o the game.

[earth mom]

59. Of course it would have. Obama hid his intentions well unless you looked past the pretty speeches

and the hype like some of us did.

Told ya'll so that Obama was a corporatist 2 years ago, though it doesn't make me happy to say that now, because we've ALL been screwed over. x(

[Kitsune]

61. I supported him over Hillary in the caucauses for that exact reason.

He was not my first choice. He was not my second choice either. But I supported him because individual mandates are bullshit.

And then he turns around and backstabs me. :/

[dana_b]

64. I remember having a discussion with a good friend

of mine last year. She wasn't sure who she wanted to vote for and we discussed healthcare. She has a steady job but, as she told me, every dime is allotted for from each paycheck. If she had to pay premiums or co-pays she didn't know how she'd get by and so she decided to vote for Obama over Clinton. Ha! Now she's really pissed.

[Unvanguard]

65. It wouldn't have made that great a difference, but in an election as close as against Clinton

who knows?

[jbnow]

96. I use to read newspaer articles and comments from papers in primary states

Many voters preferred Hillary's plan because of the mandate
and didn't understand what mandate was.
Their comments would show they thought the mandate meant the government had to give them insurance and they needed that because they couldn't afford to buy it. I'd think "You poor dears" imagining how they'd feel if it came to pass.
Never signed up and corrected anyone, just hoped they'd qualify for subsidy whoever won.

I did not/do not like mandate even though I understand the need mathematically. Obama was bashed by pretty much everyone for saying he wouldn't require it for adults and now that he says he is for it they describe it as him moving to the left.

Strange to me to think of it as a left wing policy.

[stillwaiting]

69. He definitely would have lost my vote in the primary. No doubt about it.

He probably lost my vote for his re-election. WAY too many things feel just like Bush on pretty much ALL of the issues I care most deeply about.

I can't vote for him again unless he really starts to begin fighting for change.

[treestar]

71. NO.

McCain would not have won over that.

[freddie mertz]

72. He lied to us over and over on this issue.

No way around it.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

75. Imagine that: a leader who changes his mind

"flip flops" so to speak. Or do we want another "Bush" who just clings foolishly to his beliefs/policies even when change needs to be considered (speaking specifically in regards to the mandates)? I admit that I used to be opposed to mandates as well but when the reasoning behind them was explained to me, I now see that they are needed to help lower costs- since everybody, including healthy people, will have to pay into the system to obtain health insurance coverage. I read about an interesting alternative idea regarding mandates the other day that gives healthy individuals the option of opting out of the mandate for 5 years in exchange for forgoing eligibility for subsidies, which seems reasonable but I don't think that anybody is seriously thinking of adopting something like that. I've also thought that it would be awesome if we could get rebates/dividends from insurance companies in exchange for the mandates. And, sorry, with traitors like Joe L., we won't be getting a government run health program open to a lot of people (if any) for some time. I still believe that more people buying private insurance may ultimately help force the insurance companies to reform themselves or face extinction. They still have to provide a good product at a reasonable price or people are going to be more likely to pressure their representatives to support a true public option- something that, as we all know, the insurance companies do NOT want.

[Skittles]

76. all the people cheering this shit now

no fucking WAY would they have supported Obama if he had campaigned saying he'd push for mandated private insurance with NO PUBLIC OPTION. Fucking hypocrites.

[ixion]

79. exactly

:argh:

[bvar22]

80. If Obama had said that,

Hillary would be President today!

On Edit:
Not that we would be any better off.
The MANDATE was the only significant difference in their platforms.

[RainDog]

82. LOL

ya think?

[Vidar]

85. K&R.

[Nikki Stone1]

87. Yup.

.

[shadesofgray]

91. Yes, and that is why he didn't say it during the campaigned. He LIED. He didn't "change his mind."

He deliberately lied to get elected. Now I know he's a liar and I can't vote for somebody I know I can't trust.

[Goldstein1984]

94. The insurance mandate, by itself, would have cost him my vote.

as it will in 2012 if some amazing rabbit isn't pulled out of a hat by someone.

I've been reviewing threads, watching videos, and reading articles all day. In that process, I've changed from seeing how the next three years go before deciding how to vote, to deciding how to vote and seeing if the next three years change my mind.

[TicketyBoo]

95. I cannot believe how so many people

evidently thought that Obama was a wizard who could just wave a magic wand and have everything be hunky-dory.

Geez! He's workin' on it. When Congress hands you a turkey, you make Christmas dinner out of it. What's so hard to understand about that?

[Obamanaut]

97. Some say they don't like the idea of a draft because it is involuntary

servitude.

I don't like the idea of government mandating the purchase of insurance.

I don't like it so much that if I knew then what I know now I would not have changed my screen name when we had 'screen name change week' here.

And please don't tell me that auto insurance is mandated for everyone. No it isn't. Even if one has a car, one can choose to keep it on one's property and not drive it on public highways - and no insurance is required. Plus we don't have to have a car.