Stop using the words "live in reality" to justify what Congress passes.

[madfloridian]

I am seeing that used over and over when any of us get concerned they are not standing for values that have long been considered a part of our party.

There is an excuse being used that we who question their efforts do not "live in reality". The argument goes on that Congress can only do "realistic" things. We are told that we simply do not understand that they can only do so much.

I find that argument appalling. Most of us live our lives day by day in the reality of what life offers. The economic realities...high unemployment, hard to get credit, high costs of insurance, inability to use what health care there is because of the high deductibles.

Congress does not feel the reality that people feel in their lives everyday. They seem to get more concerned about a pre-determined agenda, and getting it through for the publicity effect. The goal of passing something becomes more important than passing what is needed for those who live their daily lives outside of the DC bubble.

That is reality. Everyday life. It is the reason so many worked hard to give them a majority they could use. I know people in our area who gave time and money until they hurt. I know people here at DU who did the same.

A couple of weeks ago it became about much more than just getting the health care bill passed. Some of us have tried to speak out about what was happening, but it did not seem to sink in.

It became about the Democrats in power making sure that those of us who got them there did not get too demanding of them. They used some ridicule from high places on those who did question a lot.

That is a dangerous tactic. It divides the party, not into left and right so much, not into moderate and conservative so much....instead it uses a more dangerous method of dividing.

It is using the method of division that Simon Rosenberg referred to as the clash between the "governing" class and the "activist" class.

Those are his words. It pits those of us who helped work to gain Democratic control of the WH, the Senate, and the House....against those who occupy those seats of power.

From 2004:

If there's a battle for the soul of the Democratic Party, predicts Simon Rosenberg, president of the New Democrat Network, a moderate advocacy group, it won't be the usual skirmish between the liberals and moderates of the professional political class in Washington but one between the Washington insiders on one side and the rank-and-file activists spread out across the country on the other. "What's changed over the past two years is that activist Democrats believe that Republicans are venal people," says Rosenberg. These activists "are going to be very intolerant of Democrats in Washington who cooperate with the Republicans. There's going to be tremendous pressure to stand up and fight and not roll over and play dead."

I am not especially happy over the way they formed the new bill around insurance companies...making the outcome a boon to insurance. Not so much to those with pre-existing conditions who must wait over 4 years for relief. And even then the costs may be prohibitive to many who truly need help.

If one has a majority, they can do better than that. That is reality.

What has angered so many of us here with our party and with what is happening on Democratic forums that should be demanding good bills from congress....is that there is an strong effort to make us the activists out to be "out of touch with reality", too demanding, too "naive" (there's a great word)...

All of it geared so we don't question.

It is one of the most dangerous tactics ever.

[L0oniX]

1. Congress millionaires reality ...is not mine! n/t

[RedCloud]

70. Hey! You got a bug running loose in your reply!

[L0oniX]

92. You might have an infestation inside your monitor.

http://www.aragonproducts.com/products/lice1%2Ejpg

[levander]

2. It's not me, everybody does that...

Is an excuse I've heard so often for self-centered behavior from individuals. I love being able to tell them, "No, I don't do that." But, these egotistical bastards usually just turn and walk the other way when I say that. Much like Congress is doing now.

[ThePhilosopher04]

34. Well, reality is...

if the final bill lacks a strong public option, or single-payer, and still has the mandate for private insurance, I will not vote for - nor will I financially support - any candidate who votes for final passage...simple as that. If it means a Republican gets elected from my state or district, so be it...the only leverage we have as citizens is with our right to vote or not vote and I tend to use it. I'm typically not a one-issue voter, but this one is deal-maker/deal-breaker for me...and I know I'm not alone.

[stillwaiting]

57. You're definitely not alone.

I've been completely ignored in my pursuit of justice and equal rights as a gay American. There are many other issues that I care so much about that they are not even trying to pretend to fight for after campaigning on said issues.

However, it is health care that has become the single issue for me, and I've never been a single issue voter before. I'll be supporting another party if the Democrats further empower our for profit parasites. Not a threat, simply a reality, and they must know now. My time and effort will go towards building a viable party for the future that actually will fight for the things I believe in.

[placton]

90. my friend

the gay issues are MY issues - tho I am straight - I am a single issues voter, with lotsa issues. Vote against any one of them, and you have lost me.

[truedelphi]

68. My household stands with you.

My spouse woke up when the State of California stopped making it possible for the truly unemployed to benefit from Unemployment extensions.

All of a sudden the light went on.

As time goes by, and the government can no longer afford the things this mis- Administration has created - the twelve trillion dolar giveaway to the Banksters, the giveaways to the Big Medical and Big Insurers, the expanding wars, then the day will come when food stamps and Social Security and other safety nets will disappear and the American people will all wake up.

But it may be too late.

[levander]

87. As a fellow citizen worried about the deficit...

truedelphi, I too am gravely worried about the national deficit. You may be interested to know that there is a bill that provides universal coverage and does save money on the deficit, without the political tricks the Reid bill pulls. It's called the Healthy Americans Act. Read about it here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lanny-davis/a-plan-for-universal-cove_b_309513.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lanny-davis/the-wyden---bennett-healt_b_293117.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lanny-davis/the-healthy-americans-act_b_301962.html

[emilyg]

78. You're not alone.

[madfloridian]

3. And did I mention that hard-working teachers here have a 4000 deductible

for a family of four? That is reality.

And that is minor compared to the 10,000 deductibles some I know have.

And don't forget the ones going OFF unemployment because their time has run out. There are no jobs magically appearing for them just because they get no more checks.

That is reality.

[mcablue]

4. "reality" is that a healthy majority wants a public option

They should visit reality once in a while.

[levander]

6. Reality is also that most don't want this bill...

But, Congress doesn't understand that either.

[still_one]

5. "live in reality""live in reality""live in reality""live in reality""live in reality""

nah nah nah

neener neener neener

[madfloridian]

7. Amazing..

3 unrecs already. Just got it up.

[AVID]

14. stop obsessing about recs/unrecs! You'll never make as a professional writer.

You'd be on Amazon everyday picking fights with 1 star ratings and poor reviews.

[madfloridian]

15. I find them funny. Amusing.

It's like a contest. Like who can get to madfloridian's posts first to unrec....and oh, to insult as well.

One gets used to it after a while.

I find it amazing how quickly people make my point for me.

[tbyg52]

37. The unrecs fascinate me as well, when I've gotten to a thread early enough to see them.

I've seen the most innocuous posts in negative territory. (And I've also seen anything that questions our fearless leaders pounced on, of course.)

[elocs]

77. Lots of whining and obsessing here at DU about UnRecs, even with OPs that make the front page.

I'm sure those who chronically UnRec love having their action brought to everyone's attention.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

41. Skinner sent an Un-Rec-Bot with your name in its mission

it can't be bought
it can't be reasoned with
it just searches for your posts to unrec
that's what it does
that's ALL IT DOES!!!

:rofl:

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FarLeftFist]

9. More fantasy, less reality.

[glitch]

10. It's the whole "practical" over "idealogical" meme getting played out.

Because really, practicality reigns supreme. Makes the trains run on time, doncha know.

I do wish our corporate overloads would practice some personal practicality though; sacking and looting an economy -- not so practical in the long run.

[madfloridian]

13. I see a psychological harm being done to the "base"...

with all the put downs.

I have been treated here lately as though I am just plain ignorant. Others have also.

It is not a good tactic and will hurt us in the long run.

[glitch]

23. I do not believe the people shouting us down consider us part of the base.

And I do believe "hurting us in the long run" is part of the plan.

Once you accept that, their insults lose any sting they might have had if they had come from an ally.

[madfloridian]

25. That could well be true.

:hi:

[laughingliberal]

27. Bullies are the same whatever the venue

When called on their behavior they are masters at turning it around and casting themselves in the victim role in stunning displays of projection. Masters of a technique I call 'reality switch,' they covertly (and often overtly) rage at those they would victimize engaging in shameful behavior, insults, put downs condescension, an extreme sense of entitlement. Their underlying feelings of shame and inadequacy which they are unable to face remain below the surface outside their awareness and are projected onto their would be victims. They leave the interaction feeling justified while the victim feels the shame that, rightly, belongs to the offender. Most are borderline personalities or sociopaths. They live with a false sense that they understand the way the world really works while seeing others as naive or suckers. Any displays or verbalizations of empathy are insincere and manipulative. They will use the genuine empathy of others against them. Don't back down from them and do not, ever, let them make you feel diminished, madfloridian. The shame is theirs whether they own it or not. The truth is anathema to them. They are incapable of insight into their own behavior and can not change.

[Jamastiene]

49. I wish this was an OP.

K&R

[Greyhound]

53. Unofficial rec. n/t

:thumbsup:

[Hello_Kitty]

73. I agree.

The last straw was being told we imagined that Obama said he opposed mandates and was for a public option during the campaign. It's gaslighting and it's despicable.

[Hello_Kitty]

72. But see, certain kinds of ideology are okay. Sacred even.

Like the almighty invisible hand of the Free Market^TM.

I mean, unless a certain industry can't compete, in which case they are given monopolies and subsidized by taxpayers. See: MIC, utilities, and now, the Health Care Industrial Complex.

[cornermouse]

76. sorry.

[Hello_Kitty]

80. They're considered utilities in my state. eom

[amborin]

84. calling progresives

"ideological" is a slam, of course

and a very irritating one at that

all part of an Orwellian discourse sanitizing campaign I guess

[PassingFair]

99. Someone, I think it was Armstead....wrote a post or an OP about the tactic....

of attacking PEOPLE, and not the issue.

The attack on Hamsher for being the tall poppy
on calling out this give-away was very revealing.

The "administration" (read DLC) found their sacrificial
lamb, and they ROASTED her.

I think they may have been having trouble cooking
Howard Dean's ass, as it is already perfectly WELL DONE.

Hamsher didn't do herself any favors by hooking up with
Grover Norquist, but I bet they backed her so far into
a corner that she was looking for ANY help she could get.

It warms my heart to see my party acting like Republicans
in the service of corporate dollars.

:sarcasm:

[ProSense]

11. That's the word Senator Sanders used in response to kill the bill. n/t

[Bjorn Against]

12. Thank you for this post, I agree fully

I always want to scream when people lecture me about "reality" as if anyone who does not like their agenda is living in a dreamworld. It is not only insulting, but it is false as far too often it is the politicians who are being completely unrealistic. We were told by the "realists" that we needed to invade Iraq to prevent Saddam from attacking us with Weapons of Mass Destruction, we were told by these same "realists" that after we attacked Iraq we would be greeted as liberators and the war would quickly end. I have seen the "realists" be wrong too many times to accept their definition of reality.

[RKP5637]

22. +1, n/t

[Lorien]

16. I'm so sick of them saying "we can't fight the special interests"

Oh really? They have a gun to your heads and the wishes of the American people mean nothing? Are the special interests holding their kids hostage, blackmailing them, surrounding their homes with rocket launchers? No, and the will of the American people-if we have any democracy left at all-is supposed to COUNT FOR SOMETHING. The special interests aren't "too strong" the politicians are TOO WEAK in the face of bribes.

[laughingliberal]

29. If nothing else we can continue to tell the truth about what we see

We are up against the wealthy and powerful but it is not necessary to participate in the deceptions.

[StarfarerBill]

17. If we don't fight, the only changes will be the ones they make.

I for one have no interest in their "reality": eternal war, eternal greed, eternal complacency. No thanks.

[hunter]

18. Eventually Mother Nature brings her own Reality to the party...

... and Congress isn't going to be able to do a fucking thing about that.

[laughingliberal]

30. Yes, lately I have taken to telling those who would say we don't need to save the earth they are

correct. I simply say, "Yes, the earth will be just fine. The human species is slated for extinction but the earth isn't going anywhere." (crickets)

[RKP5637]

19. Excellent post IMO!!! n/t

[amborin]

96. +10

[varelse]

20. The short version of your post is

stop talking down to us.

[madfloridian]

21. Yep.

:hi:

[Usrename]

24. I'm pretty sure that the health care debate is a healthy one.

I don't really have a problem with it at all. You have to have your head buried pretty far down in the sand to not realize what is happening, which is an awakening of sorts for all kinds of people.

It is obvious to everyone, of all political leanings, that big Pharma and the insurance industry are lined up to screw the public and are using their control over government to do so. This is MUCH better than a national discussion of Clinton's sex life. I honestly think people are really watching what is going on, and this is a feeling I haven't really had before now.

Also, the Dems vs Reps confrontation is playing out in pretty stark terms, with each party voting as a block. This is the kind of spine the Dems have been lacking for the past decade, a rare display of unity, one that will no doubt be seen as strength by the middle of the American political spectrum, the folks who are not strongly pulled to either party, the ones more likely than not to be registered as independents, who now constitute the middle third of the electorate. I don't see how this can be a bad thing at all.

As for the details of the actual legislation, that is yet to be worked out, afaict. And the devil is always in those details. But politically, this has to be a good thing for progressives, doesn't it? Isn't that the reality of the situation? I mean nobody really thought that all of our problems and challenges would magically vanish just because Obama was elected, did they? Did anyone really believe he was going to be the new Messiah?

[Enthusiast]

66. The only ones that called

President Obama a Messiah were Reich Wing loudmouths like Limbaugh. I never once heard a Democrat refer to Obama as a Messiah.

[Usrename]

85. That's exactly my point.

Why should folks be dissappointed with him now? I, for one, never expected all that much from him. He has delivered 100% of everything I ever expected him to, which was very little in any practical sense. We are way to screwed up for any one person to have much effect on changing things. His election was transformative in another sense, perhaps a completely symbolic sense.

From an interview with Cornel West:

West: I was ready because I draw a radical distinction between the symbolic and the substantial. As a critical supporter of Barack Obama, engaged in over 50 events for him from Iowa to Ohio, I knew that at a symbolic level something could happen that was unprecedented. And it did happen. At that symbolic level, I can understand the tears, I can understand the jubilation, I can understand the euphoria. But I always knew there was a sense in which he, now heading the American empire, was tied to the shadow government, tied to CIA, FBI, tied to the establishment waiting to embrace him. It was clear when he chose his economic team, when he chose his foreign policy team, he was choosing, of course, the recycled neo-liberals and recycled neo-Clintonites that substantially you're going to end up with these technocratic policies that consider poor people and working people as afterthoughts. Beginning with bankers, beginning with elites.

Symbolically, black man breaks through makes you want to break dance. So, yes, we have to be able to relate to both of these. So I resonate with your dear fiancee, because the hopes that were generated and the call for change, and then we end up with this recycled neo-liberalism. There's no fundamental change at all.

That's very real, but I think we do have to understand we had to bring the age of Reagan to a close. We had to bring the era of conservatism to a close. And then you try to unleash new possibilities. Of course, the question now is, how do we keep our fellow citizens awakened so it goes beyond the campaign for a candidate and really begin engaging in grassroots organizing and mobilizing.


http://www.alternet.org/story/144569/

Organizing around Obama in order to defeat Clinton in the primary showed us that we do have the power to organize. The same could be said about Lieberman's defeat in the primary. Let's not stop now, now that we KNOW we can win. To me, both of these events PROVE that we can have an impact.

[Vidar]

26. Couldn't agree more.

[depakid]

28. Reality will hit the acolytes soon enough

When the consequences of their irresponsible policies come home to roost.

[niyad]

31. k and r

[Blasphemer]

32. K&R... nt

[FrenchieCat]

33. It is being used over and over because it is the truth.....

Political reality is why Howard Dean is not President.

Further, folks do question...constantly in fact....
hell, these days, a pol can't scratch his ass without it being tweeted about...
and in fact, the more the Left hangs out its dirty laundry
in the extreme manner as some have been doing,
repeating the same things over and over again,
day in, day out, being unable to appreciate not even one thing,
the more the same folks are going to be instrumental in helping
all of our reality turn into a living nightmare that will make
any suffering now seems like child's play.

Based on all I read at DU; the hyperactive criticisms just cause folks can,
will likely turn into a self fulfilling prophecy....
and If someone wants to be right that badly,
than they become the friend of the enemy in my book.

And the bad thing about it, after all is said and done,
Howard Dean still won't ever get to be President, and neither will Kucinich.
That's reality right there, whether you accept it or not.
This is not a game, but unfortunately, some people obviously just don't care.

Happy Holidays, and to all a good night.

[madfloridian]

36. "and If someone wants to be right that badly"

If you really think that is what this is about, if that is how those who unfailingly support everything done right now....then you do not understand the harm done these last few weeks by an unfeeling party leadership.

I say unfeeling because since the health care bill began they have treated those who differ like fools.

Wanting to be right? Then let the people feel they are not a distant group of irritants.

Because right now that is how I feel.

Merry Christmas, thanks for making my point.

[Donnachaidh]

45. cults repeat the same thing over and over and over again to make it *real*

right Frenchie?

After all, you can force yourself into another dimension of thinking with repetition. Too bad ruby slippers aren't involved.

[noiretextatique]

47. the issue isn't "wanting to be right"...it's doing the right thing

especially in this country which has been on the wrong track for some time. "change" and "hope" are great slogans, but people need to see and feel those things, not just a milder version of what we've come to expect from republicans. bush wasn't a realist by any measure of that word, yet he managed to shove his agenda down our collective throats. democrats has better wake the hell up and act like their platform actually means something. that's the change and hope people voted for, not "at least we aren't republicans."

[Raineyb]

52. Exactly!

People didn't vote for change only to get Republican lite. If they don't see how having Democrats in charge differ significantly from having Republicans in charge Democrats will lose. This pathetic excuse for a reform bill shows that the corporations that were writing the laws when the Republicans were in charge are STILL writing the laws now. If this keeps up people are going to stay home on election day and frankly I wouldn't blame them.

[2 Much Tribulation]

35. "reality" is just a tactic used to disarm people of their powerful principles (in exchange for zip)

and what kind of negotiation strategy is that, if it is acquiesced in? "Reality" is like 'you're getting very, very sleepy...."

[Skittles]

38. YOU KNOW IT MADFLORIDIAN

:thumbsup:

[treestar]

39. Reality is not optional

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

40. Kick and Rec.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

42. It's not that activists are out of touch

it's that they don't have the money to bribe congress like the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies.

[Enthusiast]

62. Thank you, Bozo.

It takes a fucking clown to point out this simple reality.

[winyanstaz]

43. your post is correct..thank you :)

[Donnachaidh]

44. actual *reality* is the realization that the government is now owned lock stock and barrel

by big business. And the IRS is their collection agency.

But the chorus has already adopted some of the most vicious republican attitudes and ideas on spinning the story to the point of no return. They have become the fearmongers and the hate harbingers. And they have fully embraced cognitive dissonance as their credo.

It's easier for them to deal with *reality* if they wear the jackboots.

[Hydra]

51. Word

It's disturbing what I see some people changing into...but maybe they were that all along?

[shadesofgray]

46. K&R. I am not willing to go along to get along. If the Dems don't act like DEMS, they will NOT get

my vote.

[ljm2002]

48. Spot on, as usual, madfloridian...

...and I really get annoyed by that "naive" charge that gets thrown around. People like myself, who are well along in years at this point, who lived through the assassinations of JFK, RFK, MLK, and others, who watched the ascendancy of Ronald Reagan and the longterm effects of his tenure, who watched them basically get away with the Iran-Contra illegal funding, etc. etc., are accused of being "naive".

No, we're not naive, we're royally pissed!

[Iggo]

50. If I lived "in reality"...

...I never would've voted for a black man for President Of The United States, 'cause be real, he'd never have a chance to win....right?

[MissDeeds]

54. Excellent post

as always. Thanks for telling it like it is, madfloridian.

K&R

[Libertas1776]

55. Ain't my reality

K&R!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. I'd like to see the politicians try "living in reality" instead of getting paid for doing nothing.

Nothing, that is, unless it's financed by their corporate bosses. When that is the case, they become amazingly able to get things accomplished.

[MNBrewer]

58. Whoever said "politics is the art of the possible"

had a very limited view of possibility.

[LostInAnomie]

59. I will if the KTB crowd would quit dreaming up fantasy scenarios where the PO...

... or especially single payer would get passed over a filibuster.

[zalinda]

60. If the left applauded this crap bill, then

why in the world would they "improve" it? It seems the cheerleaders don't quite understand. If something is broken, you don't pat the guy on the back that applies a patch to it, when he was fully capable of fixing it. You bitch at him and tell him you paid for a fix not a patch, now get going or I'll take my business else where. The problem with the dems in Washington is that they don't think we will take our business else where. And if we applaud ANY step in ANY direction, then they don't get the message.

zalinda

[Raineyb]

63. +1

Too bad so many are more interested in a win than in getting it right.

[Bette Noir]

61. Funny you should mention "naive."

That's the word I used for Mr. President, when he kept trying to appease Republicans. They, along with the Conservadems, smelled blood in the water, and went into a frenzy.

[bvar22]

64. I must live in Unreality, because...

I believe that the USA should have a Health Care System that is at least comparable to every single other civilized country in the World!.

The self-described "realist" are cheering because we must NOW settle for much, MUCH LESS.

This is NO VICTORY for the Working Class.

The REALITY is that this Health Care Plan is an inexcusable SHAME when compared to what the rest of the civilized World takes for granted.


A "Uniquely American Solution"....indeed.

[urgk]

65. The whole argument is silly. Both ways.

There is nothing less useful than to argue amongst ourselves about these kind of gossipy non-issues. The real debate should be between possible solutions to the crisis. Which health care reform standards are necessary? Which are cost effective? Which are possible, given the makeup of the Senate Democrats? What is the value of pushing unwinnable legislation? Etc, etc...But, to debate what we should say about what we think about these issues? Come on. It's silliness, and we're all caught up in it to some degree.

Why don't we/you/I stop *that*?

[madfloridian]

67. Sorry, but it is a serious matter.

Please note my post is about the tone of the party leaders toward those of us who voted for them.

That needs to change.

[d_b]

69. It's a self-serving, ridiculous slogan

let's all just sit on our ass and accept everything

[Hello_Kitty]

74. No shit. Was Wall Street "living in reality" the past 8 years?

Fuck no, they lived in an insular little world where they validated each other's greed and banished skeptics and pessimists.

[Hello_Kitty]

71. Well said, mad. I have given far too much of my time and free labor to be insulted like this.

They expect us to roll over and gratefully accept whatever corporate giveaway POS comes out of Congress. And worse than that, they expect us activists to go sell it to the public. Pathetic. They really do live in a bubble.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Poltical Class vs Activist Class

that is the other term, and these days I will use political class from now on when referring to those in DC who live in the bubble created by being members of the political class. This is the ruling class that has few differences between party to party, and the main interest is to keep its power.

[Laelth]

79. It's rude and condescending, too. k&r

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[wial]

81. no joke

if these clowns had the least conception of the real world we have to live in, single payer would not be up for debate -- every person would be guaranteed food shelter clothing and medicine, like the Buddhists, who do get reality, always said the government should provide.

Life is hard enough given our craven delusions, we don't need to make it worse by being callous spoiled fools, like our Congress.

In the real world we're tilting towards climate apocalypse, with more than enough resources to take care of everyone and live in an ecological paradise, but no, we have to "live in reality" instead.

[RKP5637]

95. +1000, n/t

[WeDidIt]

82. It's used because poutraged whiners don't live in reality. n/t

[Bjorn Against]

83. People who think their critics are all a bunch of "poutraged whiners" don't live in reality

[valerief]

86. Yeah, they should be saying 'making sausages' or 'playing chess' instead.

Oops, they do!

BTW :kick:

[Atticus]

88. "Living in reality" used to be called "going along to get along" and was generally acknowledged

to be the craven, cowardly and "establishment" way of going through life.

Whatever you call it, it is not something self-respecting people admit to or even allow themselves to be accused of without protest.

Well said, Mad.

[Xicano]

89. K&R

Here's some reality for the reality connoisseurs. When I see Obama's name on the next ballot I will be like "yeah fuck you too liar!" when I don't vote for him. n/t



Peace,
Xicano

[Gman]

91. Why? So you can deny reality like you constantly do?

Fortunately there are those of us that can and do deal with reality to get things done while others whine and complain about it.

[Hardrada]

94. Reality = Bribery & Corruption?

[robcon]

93. Stop telling DUers what words they can and cannot use.

n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

97. The reality is that many Democrats members of Congress must run for reelection in states and

districts where Republicans outnumber Democrats.

[inna]

98. excellent post.

Thank you for this thread. :hi:

[Echo In Light]

100. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours