DKos: "Corporatism"

[Louisiana1976]

Without sounding too dramatic, I believe that the survival of the Democratic Party depends largely on whether or not the base agrees or disagrees with the following statement:

Whether you call it "a government takeover of the private sector" or a "private sector takeover of government," it's the same thing: a merger of government power and corporate interests which benefits both of the merged entities (the party in power and the corporations) at everyone else's expense. Growing anger over that is rooted far more in an insider/outsider dichotomy over who controls Washington than it is in the standard conservative/liberal ideological splits from the 1990s.

This quote is from a recent post by Glen Greenwald, and it makes the case, in so many words, that concern for "corporatism" has fundamentally changed the political landscape in this country--forever.

Unless we decide if this argument is true or false, the Democratic Party will go down.

snip

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/26/819341/-Corporatism

[fascisthunter]

1. I Prefer to Call it Fascism

[AllentownJake]

3. As do I but certain people on here get very testy

with that accurate description.

[natrat]

45. what do you expect, that's their job, literally

[greytdemocrat]

8. Meh.

That may sound great but it's stupid.

I've always meant to ask this...exactly where do you think people are going
to make a living and exist??? You do know "My Free Pony" was just a joke
don't you?

[ima_sinnic]

52. yes, we must accept fascism because it's the only way to make a living---or something

your post does not seem very focused. Do you know what you even want to ask or ridicule others about?

[bvar22]

58. Are you at all familiar with the Health Care System ....

...in ANY of the "other" democratic civilized nations in "The World".

How do our new "Health Care Reforms" that require ALL Americans to BUY a bad (useless in most cases) product every year from For Profit Corporations that manufacture NOTHING, and produce NO wealth (value added) stack up with ANY other civilized nation?

"A Uniquely American Solution"...indeed.
Transfer wealth from the Middle Class and Poor to the "Ownership Class".

When the REALITY of what is really inside these "reforms" hit the great mass of Low Information Voters, they WILL blame The Democrats...and rightly so.
(The reality WILL hit when they are required to make out the checks or Money Orders directly to Wellpoint or Aetna...)

Mandates without a viable Public Option was ONLY supported by less than 35% of Americans, and those peoiple already vote for Republicans.

What do YOU think is going to happen?

[defendandprotect]

24. Agree, it is fascism . . .but I think corporate fascism makes it clearer for some????

[tbyg52]

54. That's the dictionary definition. nt

[DJ13]

2. There is no left vs. right. There is only inside vs. outside.

Very true, but the forces of government and corporations are in this to win, no matter the cost to the rest of us.

If we dont work to stop this now (no matter which side people are on ideologically) there will be no stopping it in the future.

The HCR mandates are an opening salvo in the next wave of rising influence by corporations.

I wish people could see that.

[polpilot]

4. It's 'historic'. They (the Healthcare Cos.) are writing a policy JUST FOR ME!!

Gotta love 'em. Thank you Obama now we'll have some 'paper' (Not healthcare, of course) and now we HAVE TO buy their 'paper'.

[Goldstein1984]

59. Well said

Democrat or Republican? It makes no difference once the lobbyists start filling campaign chests.

Right or Left? It makes no difference what foot is being used to kick your door in.

Political or Economic Elite? It makes no difference when they are on the same team.

As George Carlin said, "There's a party, and you ain't invited.

Our "leadership" has more in common with "leadership" in other nations than with their fellow citizens.

[WeDidIt]

5. Glenn Greenwald

'nuff asid.

Dismissed out of hand.

[sabrina 1]

11. By you maybe, but not by those who care anything

about this country.

Your opinion is dismissed out of hand. I will now go and read what someone whose opinion is worth considering, has to say.

Btw, your list of people to dismiss is growing every day. Pretty soon there will be no one left but those you idolize who have anything worthwhile to say, in your opinion.

The length of the list and the caliber of the people being thrown under the bus by party loyalists, says way more than they would like to convey.

Defend your position if you can, Glenn Greenwald and the rest of your ever-growing 'list', agree with them or not, can never be accused of not defending their positions. Which is what makes them relevant while you have little to offer in defense of whatever it is you are defending.

[WeDidIt]

12. Meh

The Democrats in support of this president make up more than 80% of the party, and as so-called progressives join the ranks of the Firebaggers, his numbers amongst party hardliners continue to increase.

So there you go. By taking your ball and going home, you only make this president more popular.

Thanks!

[sabrina 1]

14. Count me in those poll numbers you want to rely on so much.

Many Democrats will not respond to pollsters negatively about the party. Which is why those numbers mean nothing.

I'm not taking my ball anywhere, I hate to disappoint you. I intend to join the large and rapidly growing number of real Democrats to help rid this party of the DLCers who have infiltrated it. Now that we see clearly what the problem is, it is far easier to set goals and work towards making this Party what it claims to be.

Enjoy your delusions and meaningless polls and talking points. The rest of us have work to do.

Meh? Deep, insightful commentary from the one who thinks Glenn Greenwald isn't worth reading ~ :rofl:

[WeDidIt]

17. Meh

Glenn Greenwald is the Lord High Douchenozszle of the left.

Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.

As for the poll numbers, your claims lack veracity.

Oh, and I just knew you couldn't put me on ignore.

:P

[sabrina 1]

22. Put you on ignore? I never put anyone on ignore.

Why would I when I can easily wipe the floor with people like you which I do mostly for entertainment when I have some time to waste. It's kind of hobby to see if maybe I could stimulate some kind of rational thinking from you all. So far, looks like it's not possible in this case. :rofl:

When I want serious discussion though, I look for people like Glenn Greenwald who even when I disagree with them, can at least some offer some kind of mental stimulation.

[Moochy]

43. So tempting to ignore you...

You'd fit right in Operation Mind Crime's spot.

[highplainsdem]

15. +1,000

[Raineyb]

37. Your opinion is worth what I paid for it. n/t

[Moochy]

42. A Charicature of Blind Support Chimes in

[ima_sinnic]

53. Glenn Greenwald "dismissed" by one of the corporate shit-heels

oooh, that has to hurt

NOT

but I can understand your "dismissal." People like Greenwald are sooo inconvenient, exposing the con artists' scams. We'll soon have some obsessive posts about Greenwald, somebody posting his name in every post, no matter how irrelevant--"well, at least so & so isn't like GLENN GREENWALD," post dripping with as much manufactured scorn as possible, with some spurious 28-degrees-of-separation about his love affair with Newt Gingrich or John Boehner or Michele Bachman or party pariahs like Dennis Kucinich who don't kiss the asses of the shit-heels.

what time do you punch out?

[Hydra]

6. Corporatism has no place in our party

That's the stuff the Repubs are made of...so how did it get in here?

[DJ13]

7. DLC, "New Democrats", Republicans (same animal, different spots)

[amborin]

39. .

[greytdemocrat]

10. Jeeze...

Maybe it pays the bills???

People throwing "Corporatism" up as the Bad Guy never had a job??

Try advocating some reform before just drop kicking a piece of the
economy that keeps the power and water on...

[defendandprotect]

26. Rather, it looks like we're keeping them in business...and their power and water on...bailouts????

NO -- WE PAY THE BILLS!!!

Capitalism is a crock --

It's a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system intended to move a nation's

wealth and resources from the many to the few --

And unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime --

[Hydra]

47. Fail

My company, which is not small, is dying while Goldman Sachs is vacuuming up treasury money at an alarming rate.

If we're ok with that, you can just shut the dem party down.

[glitch]

13. It has a fatal flaw -- it consumes its host. It needed a new one, and in a two-party system...

there weren't a lot of options.

[galloglas]

9. Ironically...

those of a Rabid Right religious bent don't seem to understand that their own credos dictate an antithetical response to the Corporato-Governmental tide for, as the saying goes,
"One cannot serve both God and Mammon (money)".

[defendandprotect]

27. But in the many contradictions within organized patriarchal religion . . .

You will note that "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature"

are the licenses to exploit nature, natural resources, animal life and even other

human beings according to various myths of "inferiority" -- i.e., women, homosexuals,

Jews, Africans, Native American -- for the benefit of the few.

All "god" ordained!!

Including male superiority!!

[Uncle Joe]

16. 80% of Republicans believe big business has too much power.

A revealing post by "Into The Woods" on the Daily Kos thread.

80% of Repubs Think Big Business Too Much Power (17+ / 0-)
Recommended by:ferg, GussieFN, Bearpaw, walkshills, willibro, jimreyn, ActivistGuy, GiveNoQuarter, Nulwee, jayden, madgranny, flowerfarmer, kyril, J M F, enhydra lutris, Vexed, MichaelNY
The following has remained almost unchanged over the last decade and supports the concept that the membership of both parties agree that the big corporations have too much influence on government.

Whether the Party Organizations and elected officials reflect or implement policies reflective of that broad and lasting sentiment is of course an entirely different question.

Very Large Majorities Of Americans Believe Big Companies, PACs, Political Lobbyists and the News Media Have Too Much Power and Influence in D.C.

Nine in Ten Americans, However, Believe Small Business has Too Little Power and Influence in D.C.

When one thinks of Washington D.C. and the power corridors, smoke filled rooms and shady deals with lobbyists may come to mind. There are certain groups in particular which are singled out by large majorities of the American public as having too much power in those corridors. Leading the list are big companies, as 86 percent of Americans say they have too much power and influence in Washington. These are followed by Political Action Committees (PACs), which give money to political candidates; 83 percent of Americans cite them as having too much power and influence.

Four in five Americans (80%) say political lobbyists have too much power, while almost three-quarters (74%) say the same about the news media. Rounding out the top five are entertainment and sports celebrities, as over

two-thirds (69%) of Americans believe they have too much power and influence in D.C. This is actually the first time celebrities have been included on this list and they start off right in the top five to being too powerful in Washington.
...

The bigger takeaway:

GROUPS SEEN AS HAVING TOO MUCH POWER � BY PARTY ID

"And now a question about the power of different groups in influencing government policy, politicians, and policy makers in Washington. Do you think . . . have/has too much or too little power and influence in Washington?"

Percent saying "too much"

Big companies

Total: 86

Republican: 80

Democrat: 91

Independent: 91
...

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/...

The more interesting question is given this level of consensus, why no action has been taken to address the situation - which is a self-proving equation - because big companies have too much influence on government.
by Into The Woods on Sat Dec 26, 2009 at 12:52:23 PM PST

< Parent >

Thanks for the thread, Lousiana1976.

[Edweird]

20. In other words, this bill is too far right even for everyday republicans.

How fucked up is that?

[Uncle Joe]

25. To use an expression I heard repeated several times in the movie "Saving Private Ryan,"

It's FUBAR.

[Greyhound]

40. I think SNAFU is more appropriate in this case. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

18. Perhaps that question should have been asked and answered and acted upon long, long ago......

because now, it appears that in order to solve the problems that we face,
we have to work with what we have, as it is way better than what we had before...
because problem solving isn't just about what we wish in order to make things better,
which in my opinion should be the goal.

We understand that there are problems,
I just don't see many here who may embrace the Greenwald listed problems,
coming up with solutions that go beyond, let's suffer hard for a lot longer,
and then folks.....you will see.

See fucking what?
That we have a problem, and it ain't gonna get solved in one fell swoop.

Hell, I already knew that!

[Edweird]

19. Uh, I think the problem is a little bigger than semantics. It's the corporatism.

That "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is" crap isn't gonna help. There is blatant corporatism on the verge of becoming full blown fascism afoot. That, and that alone, is what will destroy the party. The purists are putting party above people, and that is the surest way to be on the business end of some industrial strength backlash. The 'true believers' are placing this imaginary 'victory' over the actual needs of the citizens and the future of the party itself. They think people won't notice the giant screwjob as long as nobody says anything. They are throwing everything away for ultra right wing legislation. It doesn't make any sense.

[FrenchieCat]

21. What's your solution?

[Edweird]

23. Hit the emergency stop button and hold an intervention.

[defendandprotect]

29. I think first comes recognition of what the problem is... then the discussion re Plan B???

[defendandprotect]

28. Correct . . . and we've known about this for 40 years--!!!!

However, because the Democratic Party was also infected many wanted to

delude themselves this wasn't happening --

Well, it has happened -- the tyranny of the two party system!

[scentopine]

30. Fascism is at the root of this. Something Roosevelt fought against.

There is no one left in USA who represents the best interests of its non-corporate citizens.

[divideetimpera]

31. the real problem is not corporatism, but instead lack of democracy

there is little democracy in america because of the structural nature of the federal govt. That is the real problem. If you want the people to control our govt and not the corporations, then you need a governmental structure that is designed to implement the will of the people.

THe fed govt was designed from the start to disempower the majority. If you want democracy, you have to make the states more powerful and take away the power of the fed govt.

Corporations simply exert their power BECAUSE THEY CAN. If the will of the people is not exerted, then corporations and rich people are able to do so.

It is not corporations per se that are bad; instead it is the fact that the people have no power. Corporations simply fill the power vacuum.

The senate's disemboweling of healthcare, against the will of the people, is the perfect example.

THat took place because of a lack of democracy. Get more democracy and that will take care of corporate power.
How do you get more democracy? Look to the most democratic nations on earth--western european nations. They are smaller and have parliamentarian govts. To model their govts, devolve power back to the states.

[treestar]

32. Oh for F's sake!

I am tired of this prattle. It's absurd. We are trying to get health insurance for everyone. These ridiculous strained theories are as ridiculous as any other conspiracy theory. There should be a dungeon for this stuff. It makes us look insane.

[scentopine]

33. Fiddle dee dee - war war war this war talk is spoiling all the fun at the party

Nothing ridiculous about the accelerating take over of legislative and judicial agendas by fortune 500 corporations; many of which who are now fully or partially owned by foreign entities who are major holders of their bonds and stock. You jumped to the erroneous conclusion that this topic is about health care. The broader facts around this trend are much more frightening. The way the health care bill was written is just another concrete example of this trend.

There is no greater peril than the centrists who are unrestrained by principals and ethics in their quest for personal wealth at the expense of the greater good of the nation. To justify their behavior these new democrats maintain what's good for the 1% of fortune 500 executives, is good for 300 million citizens of this country. Money has replaced principals and ethics. Wealth is coming to define a new super citizen with special rights and privileges and representation. This has always been a problem but Reagan was extremely effective at rewarding the rich (for their wealth is obviously proof of their righteousness) and punishing the poor (too lazy to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps). The rich have been given so much power, they are all too big to fail. Its hard to tell the new democrat from the early Reagan neo-con.

In the end, new conservatives and new democrats laid to waste 50 years of controls put in place to prevent EXACTLY the financial disasters that have occurred in over last 30 years (Bank I 1980's, Enron, Banking II 2000's, Health Care, etc). With each shitty piece of legislation and ensuing disaster, we bailed out the bad behavior of the rich at the expense of the poor.

As far as the rich go, Obama and Bush pumping trillions of dollars through a virtual firehose pointed at rich corporations exclusively helps rich people. The poor (including independent and small businesses) are apparently undeserving (otherwise, they'd be rich) Instead, small businesses and common citizens need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

Same goes with sick people. The rich won't feel any discomfort regardless of the health care outcome from either bill. The middle class and poor are going to get completely fucked as a massive portion of their income will now be mandated to insurance companies.

This is historic, of course, but not for reasons Obama is trumpeting.

[Edweird]

34. Well, gosh. I'm suddenly compelled to support this ultra RW legislation.

Privatization RAWKS!!!111!!11
Only HALF A BILLION in cuts to Medicare?!!?!?!??!
:sarcasm:

[treestar]

35. right wing?

The right wing is crying about the destruction of their "freedom" to contract with medical providers and insurance companies and drug companies.

[Edweird]

38. Yep. Could have come from the desk of Reagan himself.

Half billion in Medicare and unprecedented privatization. You can't get more RW than that.
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/04/us/reagan-appoints-privatization-unit.html?pagewanted=1

[ima_sinnic]

55. demonstrating an astounding "understanding" of the really deep issues as usual

right--corporations are GOOD! we WANT to work for them, whether employed directly by them or not. We WANT them to pick our pockets and run everything for their benefit.
We are becoming wusses who can't take a shit on our own anymore--pretty soon that flush will cost you $5.00 each time, slowly increasing to $10, then to $40 over a period of about 5 years. But that's okay with the trolls who have infested the board, because they obviously have no principles, no standards, and they know who butters their bread for saying whatever they're paid to say. Only the stupidest would not know when they're being used as tools, though.
You really think your butt-kissing is impressive and will save you? You'll soon be joining the rest of the serfs tilling the lord's fields and thankful for a few vegetables out of it each week. Since you've been so loyal and such a good parrot, ridiculing people into "agreeing," you might even get to be inside, like the court jester, the simple fool who says anything for a buck and kisses the lord's ring, hoping for a few extra crumbs.
Looking forward to it, actually ...

[Odin2005]

56. Fine, keep your head in the sand, then.

And don't whine as the Corporatists continue to ENSLAVE you.

[scentopine]

36. My problem with this article is that it over-intellectualizes the problem

and creates a mostly abstract academic analysis that dilutes the reality of our current legislative process.

Reagan ushered in the new democracy and created a new super citizen, something only afforded by the incredibly rich -namely corporate executives and officers with nearly unlimited access to capital. This capitial was quickly put to work. The super citizen was granted virtual immunity from common justice, and granted unprecedented access to the legislative process. Meanwhile, Amercians sat idle as corporations stripped away telecommunications regulations designed to ensure fairness and prevent monopolies. The neo-cons then ushered in an era of the sleazy attack ads and systematically started buying up media outlets. With the fairness doctrine out of the way, corporations were free to impose their will on programming decisions to more closely align with their self-interests, starting with the news. Mmeanwhile wedge issues kept us safely distracted while the real damage was being done out of sight.

It's still going on today. The new democrats continued the corporate trend - outsourcing, banking deregulation, lobbyist influence, NAFTA, on and on. All to a devastating effect against the middle class.

The middle class and their modest nest egg is now simple prey for this predator class of uber rich. Democrats are complicit of course - in spite of massive amounts of information detailing the demise of middle class wealth, the horrors of deregulation, Wall Street corruption, on and on, we still still place our faith in the electoral process and continue to elect democrats who are at best ineffective and at worst greatly exacerbating the problem. Even as we started a war based on lies and deceit directly responsible for the death of a million impoverished people (most as innocent casualties) we declined to investigate these crimes and have granted authority to Obama to continue the trend at the exclusive benefit of corporations who specialize and profit greatly from the business of slaughtering massive numbers of people - and so we forge ahead even after 10 years of failure.

In the meantime, 95% of America's earning power has stagnated starting with Reagan and continues to stagnate with Obama. The costs of housing, health care, energy, food, etc have far outstripped by growth in salary. Obama isn't going to change this trend. That much is now clear.

We need a new political party. The republicans are fairly transparent in their behavior and easy to predict and this makes them easy to fight against. The new democrats, however, are more unprincipled - willing to abandon moral principals in a flash of political expediency or convenience. In this way, they are far more dangerous than the republicans.

The new party needs to put reform at the center of their agenda. I can no longer in good conscience support democrats as they do not represent me. There can never be a compromise on torture, wire tapping, wall street fraud no matter how politically convenient. And I cannot not continue to be talked down to by Obama as a "liberal" or "far left" or "extreme". My 30 yr record of cash contributions and volunteer work for the dem party has come to an end.

He now views me as the liberal enemy, and prefers to take comfort and advice in the arms of his republican brothers. A set of self-evident principals obligates me to fight for something better than Obama. He's the best the democratic party could muster and he's not good enough for me.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

48. I am at the same place you are.

"The new democrats, however, are more unprincipled - willing to abandon moral principals in a flash of political expediency or convenience. In this way, they are far more dangerous than the republicans." I completely agree.


The New Democrats foster the abandonment of principled stands for the common good as "pragmatism".

Obam's next campaign theme - As Good as it Gets

[Vidar]

41. K&R.

[Greyhound]

44. Fascism will come wrapped in a flag and carrying a Bible. - Sinclair Lewis

And it has.

[Blue_In_AK]

49. +1

Very wise words by Mr. Lewis.

[Odin2005]

57. Correction: it's "carrying a cross".

Just to nitpick. :hi:

[Greyhound]

60. You're right.

I was in a furry and went with Yahoo! answers.
:blush:

[Moochy]

46. K to the R

:kick:

[Odin2005]

50. Fascism, AKA Corporatism: The fusion of the State and Corporate Power.

If there is to be any progress Corporatism must be destroyed. It is a threat to the LIBERTY of every American.

This evil must be crushed and wiped out just like we crushed the Nazis and the Japanese Nationalists. This is not just a battle for better healthcare, this has become a battle for the soul of our Western Civilization, and whether or not we let be destroyed by Corporatism.

[Vincardog]

51. the Democratic Party will go down and Has gone down repeatedly on the Corporatist