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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:52 AM
Original message
An Avatar Awakening
Let's face it, if James Cameron had made a movie with the Iraqi resistance as the heroes and the U.S. military as the enemies, and had set it in Iraq or anywhere else on planet earth, the packed theaters viewing "Avatar" would have been replaced by a screening in a living room for eight people and a dog.

Nineteen years ago, Americans packed theaters for "Dances with Wolves" in which Native Americans became the heroes, but the story was set in a previous century and the message understated.

The Na'vi people of "Avatar" are very explicitly Iraqis facing "shock and awe," as well as Native Americans with bows and arrows on horseback. The "bad guys" in the battle scenes are U.S. mercenaries, essentially the U.S. military, and the movie allows us to see them, very much as they are right now in 177 real nations around the world, through the eyes of their victims.

People know this going into the movie, and do not care. For better, and certainly for worse, they do not care. Millions of people stand in lines, shell out big bucks, wear stupid-looking 3-D glasses, sit in the dark for three hours, identify with twelve-foot-high pointy-eared blue people, cheer as the credits roll, and simply do not care that actual human beings suffer the same fate as the computer-generated creations, albeit without miraculous happy endings.

Imagine if a tenth of the people who now sympathize with these bony blue beings were to take three hours to read a book or watch a movie about the people of Iraq or Afghanistan or Pakistan or Yemen or Iran. Our real planet would then be a different world.

When I saw "Avatar" in a packed 3-D theater in Virginia, and the crowd cheered the closing shot, I shouted: "And get out of Iraq too!" No one cheered for that. But no one called me a traitor either.

But will anyone in that crowd lift a finger to pressure their representatives in Congress to stop funding the evil they'd just seen sanitized, animated, relocated, and ever so slightly disguised?

Rob Kall at OpEd News suggested that we make flyers to hand out at theaters following screenings of "Avatar." Having now seen the film, I think he's right. Here's a flyer (PDF). Here's the text:

AVATAR

Did you know that the Na'vi people are real, their troubles are real, and you can be a hero who saves them? It's true!

The story of "Avatar" is the story of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and other countries attacked and occupied by U.S. mercenaries and U.S. troops.

It's harder to think about that, than it is to sympathize with giant blue computer-animated creatures. But it's extremely important that you take the step to explicitly admit to yourself what you've just watched in this movie, and that you take the additional step of doing something about it.

You don't have to ride a dragon or shoot an arrow, but you do have to call this number 202-224-3121 and ask to speak with your representative in the U.S. House of Representatives and tell them that their career will be over if they vote another dime to pay for the evil depicted in "Avatar."

Tell them that investing your money in education, transportation, energy, or infrastructure produces many more jobs than investing it in killing. Tell them that diplomacy and aid work better than bombs, and that we do not need unobtainium, which is called that for a reason, although we know it as "oil".

Call every day until you get the right answer, and report your daily progress at http://defundwar.org


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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. So suddenly we're ready to de-under-bussify James Douchebag Cameron, just because --
he finds it convenient to produce propaganda less skillful and more transparent than the worst of Stalin's old-style socialist realism.

Sorry, for me, James D. Cameron ended up under the bus due to Titanic and his money-making whore's heart, and there he still remains.

I'm

Just

Sayin'!

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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. You really have no idea how and why movies are made, do you?
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 01:18 AM by MrScorpio
They're all done to do two basic things: Employ movie makers and make money. Simple as that.

To curse Cameron because he's out make the big bucks (just like everyone else in Hollywood) seems to be the height of naivete'

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lsewpershad Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
62. Do Know
the difference between propagana and the Truth or it does not matter to because of the messenger.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
22. How is it propaganda?
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 06:40 AM by Confusious
And how is it you take another RW position on something? i.e. for the iraq war.

Hell, you even used the scary communists! boga boga!
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. lol. bwana rescues noble savages from rapacious exploiters.
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 01:27 AM by cali
that's all that Avatar was, allusions to Iraqis- who bear no resemblance to the Na'vi not withstanding. You want to use it, go for it.

And no, I won't be calling Bernie or Pat or Peter to threaten them.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
97. I guess Lt. Uhura was a savage?
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 09:11 PM by cascadiance
Same actress played both Uhura in this year's Star Trek and the main female Na'vi lead character, Neytiri... :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoe_Saldana
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. whoah
what the hell do i care whether you like some guy you've never met who makes movies?

and i don't want anyone wasting their breath calling senators

hound your house member!!!!
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Trolling your own OP (Which I liked, BTW)
A great way to demonstrate the absurdity of haterade
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
38. If David is demonstrating absurdity, then what exactly are you demonstrating?
The inability to determine that David's response was not to his own OP but was a misplaced response to smalll's post #1?

So, who's doing the trolling here?

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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
5. District 9
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Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
7. "Simply do not care"?
Speak for yourself, buddy. Some of us are working our butts off to end these wars. You have no right to judge a whole nation because a few million people want to take in a movie.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I know I know
we have no more rights

nonetheless I'm going to judge this pathetic, servile, willingly abused nation of lemmings differently when a few million people want to shut down Washington DC to save the lives of real human beings
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
91. Rights never go away - they just get violated, even for decades or centuries (think slavery, e.g.)
To think otherwise, that is, that we do or can "lose rights" gives a double victory to rights violaters, they not only get away with the violation but, because the right "goes away" it's no longer in existence to make the violater's conduct wrong, not the subject even of a protest against injustice, because indeed, if slaves did NOT, all along, have the right to be free from slavery (regardless of the constitution's interpretation at that time) then that means, and necessarily so, that slavery was RIGHT and JUST until the day the constitution was amended, via the 13th & 14th antislavery amendments. Instead, consistent with the Declaration of Independence's assertion of INALIENABLE RIGHTS we have simply because we are born as human beings, our rights in justice are never lost, never forfeited, etc., they are only violated.

ANd indeed it should be no surprise that valuable things, including rights, are from time to time subject to being stolen. We should never interpret the theft of our rights as the loss of our rights. the fact that we can't see them on the ground, anymore, is irrelevant -- we still own the sofa or rights to possession of the sofa even if the sofa was stolen - and even if it remains stolen for 10 years... Nothing personal intended here at all, but to continue with the sofa analogy, an infant that sees its parent duck behind the sofa in a game of peek-a-boo believes the parent has truly vanished and is thus surprised by reappearance... SImilarly, it is infantile to believe that our vanished rights, "on the ground" or "in reality" have gone away or are "no more" -- it's just that they are not being enforced and/or are being violated. The distinction is both subtle yet all-important, because without rights being in existence, THERE'S NO WRONGS occurring, and no basis in justice to change the situation or restore the proper status quo of rights enforcement.
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GodDamLiberal Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
9. Didn't think that
When I think of forests, wild animals and unknown minerals I don't think of Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan.
More like the rain forests and what we are doing to them.
I think some people are just obsessed.
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. "obsessed"?
If I were to tell you what I think of your attitude I would surely be banned from this forum.:mad:

We (anti-war "whiners") are as worried about the enviroment as anyone could be.

It takes alot of balls (ie ignorance) to belittle the slaughter taking place around the globe,
in our name and on our dime.

David takes alot of shit on this board for being a lefty...go figure.:shrug:
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. +1
Good post
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
66. +2 . . . .. n/t
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. The film didn't have to be an exact parallel to Iraq...
And the decent thing about it like many SciFi films is that it as an allegorical film isn't too directly referring or trying to mirror just Iraq or Afghanistan. But it could also be used to represent the conflicts in Africa now too (either in the areas where blood diamonds are gathered, or in Darfur where many powers are also trying to get involved to profiteer from it too.

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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
35. yes
definitely
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Old Time Pagan Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
69. Just something to consider
that can tie the "forests, wild animals and unknown minerals" with Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan" and the other 174 counties where we maintain a military presence.

Can you guess what institution uses the most petroleum, rare minerals and does the most environmental damage in the entire world?

If you guessed the US military then you're better informed than most.

You might want to consider joining up with the rest of us "obsessed" people.

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
84. caring about this war makes one obsessed...? hmmmmm
this is a political forum, so you will be seeing tons of obsession, I guess.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
10. It was absolute dreck.
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 01:55 AM by proteus_lives
Eye candy doesn't make-up for a shitty and unoriginal script, wooden acting and one-dimensional characters.

Cliches abound as Cameron gives us a version of the racist myth, "The Noble Savage".

Plus, there is no more subtlety in Hollywood and they don't expect anything their audiences.

Here, hopefully this will save someone $10. Avatar in five panels.

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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
45. Why would you see a movie from a director you have such an obvious distaste for? NT
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #45
58. I work at a movie theater.
I'm in charge of making-up and breaking down films. I see a lot of movies I don't have any interest in.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
55. ROFLMAO!!!
:applause: You saved me MUCH more than that. Husband and I were going to go see it on IMax and 3-D on Christmas day and couldn't get in because of the crowd. You actually saved me $15.95 EACH (not counting price of popped corn, sodas , etc.)

He still wants to go see it but he can do that with a friend. The whole sci fi fantasy thing has never been of interest to me.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #55
64. There are good scifi films and bad ones. There are good fantasy films and bad ones...
and this can be said about many other genres too...

Yes, so many sci-fi films (those that call themselves sci-fi), are just special effects joy rides with meaningless or missing plots used to appeal to base emotions. But many sci-fi and fantasy films have decent stories, and because they are set more as an allegory that can be timeless, they can reach people over time a lot more.

The following sci-fi films/works are more than just special effects extravaganzas, even though their special effects might draw in some that aren't looking for depth (but I hope they DISCOVER depth of meaning at some point with films like these):

- Gattaca - for those who want to see what the future of unbridled genetic research/manipulation looks like, see this film.
- Lord of the Rings films - the original book has so many allegories to the quest for power in society with the ring being symbolic of such, and Peter Jackson captured that so vividly and with a better attempt at trying to keep true to the original book than other earlier attempts for this story and other sci fi/fantasy works had done.
- Battlestar Galactica - what really defines us as humans. What is the effect of human weakness/strengths on leadership. So many references to empire building and the effects of it in it.
- Blade Runner - similar question and even more directly put. What is it that defines us as human beings versus machines?

There are many more and I could go on here, but this should be enough to start with.

The problem we have is that people tend to separate the "genres" of sci fi/fantasy away from "real" movies that avoid any such stories and gravitate towards one genre or the other and dismiss the other.

It's really about making decent films, not whether they are sci fi/fantasy "drek", or "girl film drek". There are many pieces of crap too that try to avoid being action/sci-fi films with special effects in them. Just as there are many classic films in that "genre" that have profound and relevant stories and amazing acting performances.

Don't dismiss a film just because it is "sci fi" or "fantasy". The art of filmmaking is and always has been telling a good story and doing it effectively with good acting, script, and production values. Doesn't have to be sci fi or not sci fi to be a decent film. I still argue that this is one of Cameron's best films. And he's done some great ones in the past and a few clunkers too (Piranha Part II).
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
56. There you go again, proteus_lives. Can't just go to a movie and enjoy it, eh? Too bad.
This one is fun, the computer graphics are phenomenally good, and it does have a strong message about using military force to steal natural resources from so-called savages.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. I got to a lot of movies and enjoy them.
There are many reasons I'm disappointed in Avatar.

1. I'm a long-time fan of sci-fi/fantasy.

2. Cameron has done good sci-fi in the past.

3. A good message doesn't take away it's numerous flaws.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Disparaging a great sci-fi flick because its acting isn't Oscar-level and the plot isn't
the most well-devised seems quite nit-picky to me. But, we're all entitled to our opinions.

Cheers.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #67
100. If the acting isn't good, and the plot isn't any good...
why call it a great sci-fi flick?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Big difference between "not Oscar-level" and "isn't good. Same for "not the most
well-devised" and "isn't any good".

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. Yes, I know. And I think you were being generous.
But you're dodging the question.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #102
107. Okay, I think it was a GREAT movie. I loved it. Even took my wife to see it the next day.
The computer effects, the horse creatures, the flying dragons, the Na'vi, the flora and fauna, the HomeTree, the interconnectedness of the plant and animal life, the action ALL were entertaining in the extreme. Plus, I liked the underlying theme of trying to stop the "bad guys" from plundering the planet and enslaving the "good guys".

Of course, I knew that there would be a happy ending. After all, this is Hollywood, dude.

I didn't go to see this to evaluate the acting for the Academy. It was strictly fun. Lots of fun.


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icee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
112. I just got home from seeing it. I enjoyed it tremendously. You probably
Edited on Tue Dec-29-09 08:12 PM by icee
enjoy stuff like Kiss of the Spider Woman. Me, I go to be entertained. A billion hours of almost nonstop crap, I figure I deserve something light. Also, it gave me another reason to hate America and what she has become.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
11. Haven't seen it yet, but K & R! nt
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FarLeftFist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
12. This movie has an anti-war message and an enviromental message.
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
13. it was an excellent movie and i think it shows how much compassion we have that it is doing so well
even for aliens. it was truly a remarkable film.

and it was not only historic, but a global demonstration of great compassion and justice that MILLIONS of people protested this war even before it began, and keep up a persistent action against the war no matter the ubiquitous propaganda from ALL the talking heads until even most of them had to recognize that we were right and the admin was wrong, and it is the PRIMARY reason Obama was elected... the american people have had enough of the war mongers.

I highly recommend this landmark film to all who have a few hours to pass and wish to be taken to a truly beautiful an unforgettable place. it is on par with the advent of star wars.
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pengillian101 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. What was historic about it?
And it just came out and is "a landmark film" already?

I realize you liked it, but this seems a bit over the top, IMHO.
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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
53. folks protesting the iraq war before it even started
the film will be considered a landmark based on its cg alone, imho.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. yes, our compassion for fictional characters knows no bounds.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #20
36. exactly
good but frustrating
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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #20
54. not only fictional
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
16. you think that we don't need oil?

that's just plain goofy.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
17. Just saw Avatar today... Brilliant piece of work by Cameron and crew...
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 04:48 AM by cascadiance
I always knew of him and liked him as a great and talented filmmaker over the years (even before my more recent emphasis on political activism), but before today I hadn't believed him as capable of delivering a film with deeper social conscience as this film was. Battlestar Galactica TV series and Disctrict 9 started this recent trend to more socially conscious SciFi. I hope the trend continues.

I'd like to think that this is one film that perhaps can put a chink into the videogame world that attracts such kids to films like this who are used to mindless and addictive violence, and perhaps make at least some of them step back and think for a bit. It's not going to happen overnight, but I'd like to think its a step in the right direction. I'm tempted to buy the game just to see if it reaches beyond just the shoot-em-up treatment that so many other games are these days.

Had hoped that the people making the Sims would make a version of "SIMpeachment" while Bush and criminals were in office, and had written to one of those who worked on porting these games to UNIX boxes to help with that. It's still a big "market" that needs to have someone make a dent in it to help wake up the masses. Especially the young that need to be mobilized.
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pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 05:19 AM
Response to Original message
19. "But will anyone in that crowd lift a finger" You write so well,
for a person that still believes in Santa Claus. Get a clue, your congress-person could care less what you think as long as he gets the corporate bucks to keep campaigning and the sheeple continue to vote for him/her, all is as it should be in their little world.

Tell me what would be more effective, 50 million people calling busy signals or 50 million people refusing to pay ANY bills until we get real "change we can believe in?" That by the way includes going to movies, unless you charge it to a credit card that you will not pay. We have to hit them where it hurts. If we don't re-elect THIS corporate sponsored congress-shit another corporate congress-ass will take his place. The government is corporate controlled and the people must take it back, but calling your congressman is the same as calling Citibank and asking for your credit card interest rate to be lowered....ain't gonna happen.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #19
39. i'm not fantasizing abotu commanding moviegoers
to do exactly what i want, which would be neither of those things
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pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
110. What you are fantasizing is that the majority of congress
would do what you want as opposed to a corporation that gives them $100Ks or more over their "career". Think...if health care didn't move these bastards to do something for the people then nothing will.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
73. actually you can often call Citibank and get your interest rate lowered
I used to work at one of the call centers. I even took a few people off of default interest rates. That was a judgement call that most other call workers might not make, but standard lowering of interest rates was routine. The call worker just asked the computer and sometimes it said yes and sometimes no. I didn't keep stats, but to my memory it was about 50-50, half yes and half no.
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crazyjoe Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
23. It's just a movie, get a grip.
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mucifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
24. I would have enjoyed the movie more if it ended when the protagonists went to jail
Still 2 dimensional characters in a pretty 3 D movie It wasn't great. But, a jarring sad ending would have been great. Of course not many would want to see that. People want the boring hollywood ending. I do appreciate the anticorporate and environmentalism themes. The irony is if you read the warnings on your 3D glasses it seems they are toxic to the environment.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #24
50. I would like to see theaters find a way for you to "reuse" your 3D glasses in future films...
Perhaps other films down the road will charge extra for the glasses and you don't have to pay this amount if you are bringing your old ones to the film with you. That would be the environmentally conscious way to do things.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. In the theater where I saw Avatar there was a recycling bin
at the exit where people were encouraged to drop their glasses to be "recycled".

I kept mine, but I don't delude myself into thinking that if I went to see the film a second time (which I may very well do) that they would give me a break on the additional cost because I already have glasses.

I'm not sure what "recycled" means in this context. The glasses are imprinted with that triangle thingie with the number 7. That's not a number accepted by recyclers where I live. :shrug:


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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
104. You can recycle them. The bag my RealD glasses camein said made from recycled content
I doubt they will ever let you bring your own for a discount because they cost about $0.50 to make.
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Hatchling Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
105. The theater I saw it in
confiscated the glasses afterward. They were sterilizing them and reusing them. They were pretty sturdy glasses as well and fit quite well over my own glasses.
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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
25. Shame on you, David Swanson!
For giving Rupert Murdoch your money!!!
You have just helped to fund the evil you rail against...
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. my wife and i have each paid to see it twice so far, and we paid for 4 friends to see it too!
the people who let their politics dominate their entertainment choices are the people who walk around life like this-

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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
77. The people who willingly pay Fox...
...for their "entertainment" are the people who pay for the propaganda spewed by its "news" channel.
I hope you enjoy our new corporate feudalism.
You're the one financing it!
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. que sera sera.
and as long as fox keeps putting out movies that pique my interest, i'll continue to do so. :hi:
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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. Sure... No problem.
As long as the soap is of high quality, who cares where the fat comes from?
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. exactly.
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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. Wow! You really didn't...
...understand that reference, did you?
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. no- i was just ignoring the ludiocracy of it.
because anyone who would compare going to a movie, with any aspect of the holocaust is particularly ignorant.

but you already knew that, didn't you? :hi:
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Jkid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
26. You think it's that simple? (Devil Advocate)
You don't have to ride a dragon or shoot an arrow, but you do have to call this number 202-224-3121 and ask to speak with your representative in the U.S. House of Representatives and tell them that their career will be over if they vote another dime to pay for the evil depicted in "Avatar."

Tell them that investing your money in education, transportation, energy, or infrastructure produces many more jobs than investing it in killing. Tell them that diplomacy and aid work better than bombs, and that we do not need unobtainium, which is called that for a reason, although we know it as "oil".

Most representatives simply do not care at all regarding real serious issues, especially with something that gives them campagin contributions such as the two wars we are dealing with. They'll don't care and they simply will not listen about your opposition.

War, to congressmen, it's just too profitable.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. I hope it is not a comparison to the middle east
The natives in Avatar are peace loving people who live in harmony with their planet. The middle east is not even remotely similar.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #28
41. when was the last time
Iran attacked another nation?
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
71. Well, Iran sure is butchering its own people up.
Iran's people are peaceful, while its leadership is blood-thirsty and oppressive.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #28
46. There are many also in the middle east that are "peace loving people trying to live in harmony"
with their planet as well. Not all of them are "terrorists" over there. Just because we're used to seeing tribal clans in other films that present their tribal rituals of being "one" with the planet, doesn't mean that other tribes or sets of people don't try to do the same thing in their own way. Yes, there are some tribes in South America where you can see their legends of their gods being all about the cycle of life that is more obviously close to what is shown in Avatar. But how close the characters/story resembles their struggles isn't the point of the movie. The point is that you don't have some dominating imperialist races running around a planet grabbing resources, etc. at everyone's expense, especially those that are trying to live within their means and with what nature's balance dictates. That could be any place on our planet, even within our own country (aka blowing up mountains to do coal mining in the Appalachias when the resident population there would rather try to live with what their land gives them in less destructive ways). They might be less "tied in to the land" than other tribes that have perhaps had traditions of a thousand years or more, but the concept is the same.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
60. *facepalm*. 'nuff said.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #26
40. no s--- sherlock
you try to get fat moviegoers to start getting involved in their lives
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
29. As far as movies goes, it was pretty good. I don't think there was no direct correlation between
this movie and our invasion of Iraq and Afganastan though. The only thing that came close to that inference was the mention of "Shock and Awe", and that, in and of itself, does not make the movie something an anti-Iraq-war person anything to hang there hat on.

To me, it was a story that could be told about many of our wars throughout the history of humanity.

A group of people, or nation, has overwhelming power and needs resources, so they just take it from the people who have the resources but have no power.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
30. Yep, I defenitely got the message.
Great movie!
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
31. out of sight, out of mind
we dont see what we are doing to the people of either country. we dont sit in the gutters of Baghdad and hold dead children in our arms, weeping. we dont see young men and women lying by the roadside or whole villages wiped out by drone attacks. we dont hear the shells coming in or smell the air or live in constant terror.
until people do, they ignore it.
the MSM does nothing, they do not cover whats happening.
we, we , we, are the terror.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
32. Given many thinly veiled jabs at our empire in movies for the last several yrs....
I disagree w/your opening statement re how audiences would react ... to an extent.
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Ghost of Tom Joad Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
33. Is this the new Smurf movie?
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N_E_1 for Tennis Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
34. Great Post, David
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azul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
37. The movie is a message to the rest of the world
about the level of ignorance and apathy of the American people to illegal aggressive wars.

That this movie's peaceful message is about the only level of dissent to the US war machine's media power should be a hopeful sign that the people of the US are about ready to stop the empire trip, or not? Like the public is going to finally get it when it sees this blockbuster?

We see what we want to see.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. print and hand out
the flyers!

They ain't subtle!
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
43. For crying out loud.
So THIS is what you have to do to keep a post about a great movie on the GD?

The Na-vi were as far from Iraqi's as you can get. Did you happen to notice how the women had almost equal, if not superior roles than the men in the tribe? Are you suggesting that Iraqis walk around half naked in their desert land?

OH my God. And the moderators took you seriously and so did everybody else. Well, congratulations. You just found the formula to keep one of these things on the GD forum.
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
70. Agreed
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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
44. I don't get this "this movie is a message to the world," "explicitly about Iraq," etc...
This movie was in development back in 1994, with a script written and everything and was to be released in the late 1990's. I realize it's politically convenient to try to use its plot to our advantage now, but it's less than genuine.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. The initial concept of the saga of Battlestar Galactica was made around Star Wars timeframe...
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 11:19 AM by cascadiance
But of course the recent rendition of this series had season 4 really have even more of a direct correlation to the prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan and the situation there too, much like this film did. Filmmakers adapt their scripts and a saga's story over time to make it more relevant to current times and issues in the world so that more can see the basis of the film's message in reality. That doesn't mean a film is trying trying to reflect that reality or another reality, if it doesn't match up exactly. That's more for documentaries to try and do. The point is to look at the plot more abstractly to see how it fits so many situations we have on our planet now (Iraq and Afghanistan for us now, Africa for blood diamonds and genocides in Darfur, etc., our oil companies raking the hell out of South America rain forests and the local tribe environments for oil and other resources down there, Nazi Germany's invasion of Africa in World War II for oil resources, Spain and other European powers invading North America for natural resources and gold back in earlier centuries, and on and on...
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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. Well said. n/t
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
47. My son saw it and made the same comparison.
Great post, David.
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invictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
49. K&R
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
52. Damn, is this the holiday hangover?
One thread whinging that another movie is about - better sit down for this - rich people. And then this thread...outside of the fact that the OP is presumably unaware that this plot has played itself out - in fact and in fiction - for centuries, this sort of lecturing is vastly annoying. No, I'm not going to call my representative to say that I don't want them to support the evil in Avatar...I will, however, let them know how I feel about our foreign policy in Afghanistan and Iraq.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
59. OMG I spotted something
that proves 12-ft-high blue people are not exactly identical to Iraqis or Native Americans or Afghans or Nicaraguans or ...

And therefore I shall smugly declare the rest of you morons and miss the Effing Point that the movie shows willfully ignorant Americans what things look like from the other end of the gun barrel of US imperialism.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #59
80. Yeah, there are some real literal minded folks populating this discussion thread
This is a theme that is way familiar. It would be nice if we would step back a bit and see the undercurrents this movie is clearly and beautifully trying to bring to the forefront.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
61. Excellent movie, very entertaining, exceptional computer graphics, and a message about
the state of the world in which we live. No, the Na'vi are not the Iraqis or Kurds or Afghanis, but the premise of imperial military might being used to steal resources with no thought for the health or well-being of the natives or the environment, is applicable to us and the other major powers around the world.

Rec.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
65. David....There are a lot of posters in this thread who don't seem to understand metaphor
or symbolism in general.

That movie was, at times, painful for me to watch, because I could imagine what our horrible war machines must look like to the Iraqis, Afghanis, et. al. <sigh>



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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
68. K&R, but I will be waiting for it to come out on DVD.
I thought the same parallels were visible in depiction of the future inthe Terminator movies:
...Robot Drones flying over the rubble firing down on "insurgent" rabble fighting back with antique weapons and home made explosives.

BTW: Many people are not capable of abstraction.
Its a Developmental problem.
People stuck in the Concrete Black/White developmental stage find abstraction threatening.
It isn't encouraged in the schools anymore since it isn't necessary for any of the new jobs in the Service Economy.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. Cameron's other films weren't as directly a correlation to oppression theme in this movie...
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 01:59 PM by cascadiance
Yes, the robot drones were similar to the ships that were attacking the natives in this film, and showed a similar concept of subjugating oppressive terror that both films had.

But the Terminator series probably had more of a message to prevent unbridled pursuit of technology to the point where it bites back at us when we the scientific process isn't used properly or enough to prevent the terror. And of course it was the robots and machine intelligence gone amuck terrorizing us (even if we created them) than we ourselves becoming those oppressors that this film points more at. Probably more parallels to either Blade Runner or Battlestar Galactica there.

Now this film also had the metaphorical scientific community, like Sigourney Weaver's character, and depicted that at times it can be arrogant and think it *knows* what is going on in the big picture of things, and often compromises its ethics to get funding or to pursue its "research" or "excellence", losing sight of the goal of trying to understand and work with what's really going on in the physical world. But as with Sigourney Weaver's character, they show that this community is capable of insight and working together to reverse the problems they might have had a role in creating (kind of like many scientists with global warming today).

And even the military is shown as having some ability to have insight when they are doing things wrong (like the pilot character and the main character), but of course many are blind in their arrogance and downright cold heartedness and mistaking groupthink that at times is blind to the consequences of their actions with what the military at times engenders. This is similar to what the Nazis engaged in that confuses this groupthink with the camaraderie necessary to function well as a unit together that the military typically uses to organize itself with.

That's where this film works better than many other sci fi films such as Star Wars, as it in effect shows the human side of the evil in it (though the commander is more of a caricature). Sometimes sci fi and fantasy try to be too pure about what is "good" and what is "evil". By identifying ourselves with the evil part of this film more than other films (our military, etc.), it is a more realistic depiction of the real world than some other films in this genre that aren't as effective, and hits us more in the gut with its message.
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Hatchling Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #68
106. I'm usually a wait for DVD person myself.
But I needed to get out of the house today and decided to take in this movie. There is NO way you are going to get the thrill and beauty of this movie on a home screen or even on a flat screen. The 3D visuals are stunning.

Now I wish I had seen in in IMAX as well, but a 2 hour bus ride there and back just didn't seem that urgent to me when I took off this afternoon.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
72. So the Na'vi are living in a dictatorship?
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 01:28 PM by gulliver
Cool! This movie sounds better and better. It seems a lot different from what I have been expecting, though.

I did not know the Na'vi are ruled by an iron-fisted dictator Na'vi guy with a mustache. And then some other planet attacks Earth, and a dunce Earth leader attacks the Na'vi planet. The Na'vi dictator is used as a pretext for the attack, although what the Earth really wants is the unobtainium. Also, it is an Earth election year, and the dunce Earth leader's dunce political party is willing to start wars to score political points.

Then, the dunce Earth leader declares Mission Accomplished and the Na'vi "Resistance" start sending suicide bombers into markets crowded with Na'vi civilians?
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #72
98. Beautiful
:thumbsup:

I wasn't aware Iraq or Afghanistan were such glorious paradises of unspoiled nature, gender equality, and general peaceful harmony. Not that that justifies invading them, but let's not go overboard and idealize their culture into some white-guilt 'noble savage' dreamland, either.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
74. You want me to call my Congresscritter and discuss your movie review with them?
How about I just go enjoy the movie?

So no one cheered your outburst at the end of the movie, and no one called you a traitor either. I'll bet though, that more than a few of them wondered to themselves "who the fuck is THIS asshat?"

I go to movies to be entertained, not informed. I'm going to see it tomorrow and the tickets will only be $5. Looking forward to it.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
75. Cameron himself said that the story is about ECOLOGY, not a race or people
It's about how CORPORATIONS-not the US military- disregard the environment, planetary health and indigenous people's sacred lands for PROFIT. It really isn't any more complicated than that. But I guess that people will try to make their own allegories out of it, just as they did with "The Lord of the Rings".
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. But CORPORATIONS can't do it without the MILITARY
12 stuffed shirts can't march out of the executive board room and start whacking Na'vis/Iraqis on the noggin with umbrellas.

The military industrial complex along with the CIA is so intertwined with the big corporate players its almost like they are just another department of those corporations.

And now more and more percent of the corporate fighting force are private mercenaries, paid 4 times the rate of regular soldiers, with your tax dollars. All to secure more wealth for the top percentage of the elite classes.

I can take what I want from the movie. It doesnt have to be so obvious. The Na'vis don't have to have big noses of mustaches for me to be reminded of what the Iraqi people are going through because of the US invasion. That Cameron used the term "shock and awe" was his way of tipping his hat to that allegory. He wasn't blatant about it, because, like David says, just eight people and their dog would watch it and it would be decimated in the MSM movie reviews, if he even went out and said it possibly COULD be a statement about the wars in the middle east. Which is closer to the truth IMO. Cameron was not directing it at any particular invasion, but was more of a general statement about how we value the 'other' and how far we accept violence for profit. But I'm sure the Iraq invasion was included in that statement.
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gopwacker_455 Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
81. it was rubbish
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Hello.
Welcome to DU! :hi:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. why was it rubbish?
You are the first person I have seen to say so....
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
82. Is it ok that I have no interest
in seeing this movie? :shrug: I really don't. Not a big CGI fan.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #82
87. um, yeah... I don't think anyone is forcing you to go see it
don't know why you'd ask that?
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Just felt like it.
Thanks for your reply.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
92. Well, that's one movie I won't waste my time going to watch...
I wouldn't have cheered for someone who jumps up at the end of a movie and yells. I would have thought the behaviour's just a bit on the weird side. Have you considered that the movie's just another crap money-spinner masquerading as entertainment and not some amazing political gift to mankind?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
93. I totally disagree. Everyone can see that the Na'vi are Palestinian Smurfs!
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. Political/Lit Interp is above some folks' level, but not most DUers, & not "big" movie directors
There can be more than one level of meaning, as well, just as Disney cartoons tend to "work" both for the very young and adults who catch the more sophisticated allusions.

Palestinian smurfs? That will get you a grade of D in the graduate film studies class, from a generous professor with a no-fail policy.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. And clearly a sense of humour is above some folks' levels...
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 08:34 PM by Violet_Crumble
I think you may have missed the plot by a mile on the message I was trying to portray. I might also suggest you enrol in classes on how to be condescending with a bit of style and substance :)
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Lord Helmet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
99. Avatar cost $230 million to make and was about 1/2 inch deep.
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:39 PM
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103. Alright...I'm seeing this movie Wednesday, so I'm going to forget everything I have
read here. If it's a piece of shit, nothing but CGI garbage ooohh, ahhhh piece, then I will report back on it. I've heard about the story not being original, but the CGI was amazing.

However, amazing CGI just doesn't cut it for me, so when I see it on Wednesday I'll find out what I like about it
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dhpgetsit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:40 PM
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108. Yes, the movie was produced at a ridiculously high price.
Primarily the movie was intended to entertain, and it will certainly succeed in that objective.

But it did have a message. What you come away with may depend. Personally, I came away with the message that we should change the way we relate to our planet, and learn to live in harmony with nature. How many millions have been spent trying to convince Americans that corporations are the best leaders for our country? Or that Islam is a threat to all of humanity? When it comes to delivering a message, money is irrelevant.

I applaud this film and I hope it breaks all kinds of box-office records. Not because the acting is outstanding or the plot is ingenious. But because so any people will come away with some positive message, the way I did.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 07:26 PM
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109. Nineteen years ago....
Americans packed theaters for "Dances with Wolves" in which Native Americans became the heroes, but the story was set in a previous century and the message understated.

Also the story was stupid, the acting dreadful and the directing (by Costner) amateurish. What does this have to do with anything?
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 07:37 PM
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111. Saw it. Loved it. Actually shed a few tears over it.
I think it's an amazing piece of world-building, with such exquisite details that I could see every single penny's worth of that 250+ million dollars on the screen. But see it in 3-D, if you can.

The anti-war message was pretty much in your face, right down to references to shock and awe, and with the Halliburton-type guy wondering why the natives couldn't be assuaged when the humans had built schools and roads and infrastructure for them. It's as if Cameron ripped the global war on terror playbook right out of the Bush administration's hands and plastered it all over the screen. Absolutely no subtlety about the parallels.

But still. This is an amazing imagination at work, and the end result is that you will be utterly immersed in an alien culture.
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icee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. I just got home from seeing it. I enjoyed it tremendously. I'm
going to see it again. The 3-D was quite enjoyable. I think Zoe Saldana was the best in the movie. Do you really think her boob are that tiny in real life, or they had to put "crushers" on them?
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