Winchester to Deliver 200 Million 40-Cal. Rounds to Homeland Security

[Hannah Bell]

August 22, 2009


WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Winchester Ammunition was recently awarded a contract by the Immigration, Customs and Enforcement (ICE) division of the Department of Homeland Security to supply a maximum of 200 million, 40 cal. rounds over the next five years.

The load selected for this contract is a 135-grain, hollow point designed for the office of Field Operations of Customs and Border Protection. It will fall under the Winchester Ranger line.

http://www.gunreports.com/news/ammo/Winchester-ICE-Homeland-Security-ICE_1460-1.html



so how much *is* 40 million rounds/year, anyway?

[aquart]

1. Hollow point?

Are these the famous cop killer bullets?

[Hoopla Phil]

6. No, and there is no such thing as a "cop killer bullet".

[aquart]

10. Uh huh.

<http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=cop+killer+bullets+&aq=f&aqi=g1&oq=cop+killer+bullets+&fp=cbc2f75bf9d43a8f>

Yet Google seems to disagree.

[Mixopterus]

11. Uh, he's correct

These so-called "cop killer" bullets are only called such due to a teflon coating on the bullet itself, which is used to decrease barrel wear, not increase penetration. From what I have read, the teflon coating more or less gets peeled away as the bullet flies through the air. Maybe if it was fired from point blank range the coating might help, but at those ranges it's a crapshoot whether or not your standard kevlar vest is going to save you.

You should be far more concerned about the 5.7mm round produced by Fabrique Nationale and the 4.7mm round. The former has some exotic and experimental versions regarding the composition of the bullet, which can penetrate standard body armor at a respectable distance while simultaneously fragmenting and turning your insides into soup.

EDIT: I'll add I don't think the teflon coating will help whatsoever, the composition of the bullet itself is really what enables it to pierce armor (as well as velocity and whatnot)

[BigBluenoser]

20. Be even more concerned about the venerable 7.62x25 Tokarev...

You can buy a semi-auto Tok and enough rounds to kill a 1000 cops wearing level 2 for under $500.00 - and that's a hell of a lot more than it used to cost.

If people are worried about police getting killed they should probably be more concerned with bugging their congress critters to end the war on drugs and bug the municipalities to reduce the number of dynamic entries, no knock raids and other general asshattery that cops are required to do these days. Not worry about the DHS buying a caliber the Eff Bee Eye has been using since the early 90s.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

27. It might really help if you actually read a couple of those "sources".

[Hoopla Phil]

38. Yep, this one actually debunks the "cop killer bullet" meme. Ha Ha Ha

________________________________________________
In 1982, NBC ran a special on the bullets and argued that the bullets were a threat to police. Gun control organizations in the U.S. labeled Teflon-coated bullets "cop killers" because of the supposedly increased penetration the bullets offered against ballistic vests, a staple of the American police uniform. Supporters of gun control believed that the Teflon coating was responsible for this increased penetration<2> despite the fact that the material is only an outer coating for the brass penetrator and usually peels off during its trajectory through the air.
_________________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon-coated_bullet

[Hoopla Phil]

36. By that logic the chupacabra exists also.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=chupacabra&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz2

Just because a google search turns something up does not make it real. Please name one cop killed by a "cop killer bullet".

[Hoopla Phil]

37. Ha Ha Ha. Apparently you did not read any of the articles your search turned up. LMFAO

Oh this is priceless. The very first link on your search DEBUNKS the term "cop killer bullet" Oh God, you can't make this up. LMFAO!!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon-coated_bullet

______________________________________________________
In 1982, NBC ran a special on the bullets and argued that the bullets were a threat to police. Gun control organizations in the U.S. labeled Teflon-coated bullets "cop killers" because of the supposedly increased penetration the bullets offered against ballistic vests, a staple of the American police uniform. Supporters of gun control believed that the Teflon coating was responsible for this increased penetration<2> despite the fact that the material is only an outer coating for the brass penetrator and usually peels off during its trajectory through the air.
______________________________________________________

THANK YOU for making my point for me.

[L0oniX]

34. Well you can use what they call "+P" ammo if your gun will handle it.

I don't know for sure but I would think that non-hollow point 45 +P ammo might get through a vest.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

40. There is no +P for .45 ACP.

And even if there were, I doubt it would penetrate kevlar armor. The velocity would still be too slow. Like any 45 round, it would still knock the target down with major bruising.

[Hoopla Phil]

41. Just a minor correction. Cor Bon does make +P ammo for the .45.

But it still will not penetrate a cops vest.

[AllentownJake]

12. They are banned from Military usage by treaty

Due to the wounds they inflict on a battle field, however they are perfectly acceptable in civilian population control.

[Hoopla Phil]

39. You are referring to the Hague Accords. The U.S. never ratified that treaty. As such

the U.S. military is free to use hollow point ammo as they see fit. Typically ball ammo is used in most applications because it is much cheaper, more reliable in feeding, and has better penetration. However, some U.S. spec. ops. do in fact use "specialty" ammo as the situation dictates.

[leftstreet]

2. Holy shit, that's quite a contract!

Somebody made a few bucks off this.

Jeez

[nemo137]

3. Well, the departments in question use firearms with 13-round magazines

So that comes out to, with some help from wikipedia and the great gazoogle, 79 magazines per year per armed employee. Does anyone know how much they're required to train?

[leftstreet]

4. Would they use hollow points for training though?

Seems kinda weird

[Craftsman]

14. Yes, they use the same rounds they carry for training

[proteus_lives]

5. Range time eats up a lot of rounds.

[Sherman A1]

7. .40 cal is a pretty good size bullet.

why would they need something that large in that quantity?

[Mixopterus]

8. They use the .40

Because the tests find it a superior bullet to the 9mm in nearly every regard, and with lower recoil (and therefore increased accuracy over multiple shots) than the 10mm round.

[PJPhreak]

9. .40 Cal Hollowpoint with a 135 grain load?

Bajeebus,Just what the hell are they tryin to hit with that kind of round,Buffalo??

And from what,a 1/4 mile or more?

[Mixopterus]

13. It's a handgun round

I don't think it'll be reaching anyone at 1/4 of a mile.

[aikoaiko]

22. 135 grain JHP Is on the small side for a .40 cal

I assume these chose small to increase bullet speed and bullet expansion.


I .40 would have a difficult time killing a buffalo.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

23. That's one of the LIGHTEST .40 cal rounds made.

You'd be an idiot to shoot a buffalo with one and you'd likely be committing a felony.

[michreject]

31. It's actually the smallest 40 round

They have 135.155.165,180 and 200 grain bullets.

I myself use 155 gr. Gold Dots at 1385 feet per second chronoed. It's a handload though. :)

[Tim01]

15. Christ, a .40 is just a good handgun round.

There is nothing magical about it or terribly destructive. It falls right in with other useful handgun calibers.

[TexasObserver]

16. Most of law enforcement has gone to the .40 cal round and weapon.

Because the 9mm didn't have enough knock down power and the .45 cal is too big.

Twenty years ago, it was 9mm or .357 mags.

[StarfarerBill]

17. Getting ready for an uprising, are they?

[vadawg]

19. no range quals, and general everyday usage

i burn way more than 79 mags a year just plinking at the range, some people are there everyday so you would be amazed at how quickly the rounds get burned through..

[StarfarerBill]

29. I hope that's all it is.

[Winterblues]

18. I was told forty years ago the NATO round, 762mm, cost $.90 a piece

I wonder what this round cost. I would imagin it is a bit cheaper since the casing is much less as is the powder and the round itself, but in forty years I am sure there must be some inflation..

[aikoaiko]

24. I would be surprised if they cost more than 50 cents each.

That's the going retail price for .40 Ranger


I'd also be surprised that 7.62 Nato cost 90 cents 40 years ago because shooter grade 7.62 ammo is cheaper now. The premium hunting or match shooting rounds are about a buck each though.

[Winterblues]

30. Hammers cost $700.00 back then and toilets were in the thousands

There was a lot of "war profiteering" going on during the Vietnam Conflict..Maybe contracting methods are more closely monitored now adays.

[Hannah Bell]

35. no, it hasn't changed much. at least there have been plenty of stories

about halliburton, etc. profiteering.

[aikoaiko]

21. A pictorial of various handgun cartridges -- .40 call is in the middle for practical pistol usage.

.40 cal is third from right. The ones at the very ends are not the best for self-defense usage. The ones on the left require big guns and low capacity, while a .22lr is too small to reliably stop bad guys. Although I will admit that people do carry guns in these loads to great effectiveness.

A lot of people think of .40 cal as a compromise between .45 ACP and 9mm.

[Dappleganger]

25. Nice.

[L0oniX]

26. Clue: hollow point is not intended for target practice usage.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. It's not uncommon to practice with the same rounds pepole carry.

Of course most of us can't afford that. That's why I reload my own ammo.

[L0oniX]

32. I used hollow point at the range only to make sure the guns wouldn't jam...

but you know it's way too costly to use for practice, I get a 1000 9mm reloads for $135 for that.

[aikoaiko]

33. More agencies and civilians are practicing with the ammo they carry for self-defense.

I think this is especially useful for JHP which sometimes function differently than cheaper FMJ rounds in pistols. I had a 1911 that cycled FMJ flawlessly, but had trouble with JHP getting caught up on the feeding ramp. Cor-bon Powerballs solved that problem.

When I go to the range I mostly shoot FMJ put empty one mag with self-defense JHP ammo just to be sure.