I have never flown out of the US. What I question is

[blues90]

If the US had certain rules to fly and airports around the globe differ how in the hell can they ever make it safe,

Anyone could board a plane and not be on a watch list or have a record of any kind but have a personal reason to try to blow a plane up and get away with it.

[havocmom]

1. My question also

with the added: How is Homeland Security accountable for 'failure' in this? What (American) system failed? Why do so many Americans think our methods/laws/policies are global?

Damn, education in this country is sorely lacking!

[Fumesucker]

8. We drop bombs pretty much wherever we please..

Nobody ever does much about it and we keep right on doing it.

Of course the unsophisticated are going to think we run things worldwide.

[Igel]

15. Two systems.

1. The first was the visa system. He had his visa, granted in summer '08 before he cut ties with his family, before there was any great sign of radicalization. There are procedures for revoking a visa.

They should have suspended his visa and then tried to contact him or left a note in the file that airline personnel would run into requiring that he have an interview prior to having his visa reinstated.

2. He wasn't on the no fly list. There's a lot of pressure to keep it small, but the idea of having a consulate or embassy put people on it and then be able to remove them after follow-up (with an annotation) is attractive. Instead he was put in a "possible terrorist" database and no follow-up was done.

Voila. What systems failed? Two of them. We'll overlook the entire paying with cash for a one-way ticket and then having no checked luggage business (while only carry-on is fine for some trips, I can't really imagine an international one--esp. a one-way trip. . . unless, of course, you just need carry-on luggage for entertainment until your trip suddenly concludes).

People think our regulations are global because in some ways they are. The airline folks are to make sure that the passenger satisfies regulations for entering the US because after he boards the international flight the next territory he'll officially enter is the US. When my boss flew to South Africa in the '80s the airline--this was in Oregon--made sure he had his visa because the connecting flights required it and the next time he'd have any serious interaction with anybody would be passport control in Cape Town. No visa, no getting on the plane, because without it they'd have to fly him back.

[goldcanyonaz]

2. One of the reasons why I drink heavily when on international flights

[havocmom]

10. I would require intravenous sedation

by the bucket

[goldcanyonaz]

12. You do pay for it once the plane lands. Holy smokes.

[Buns_of_Fire]

21. Not any more...

Not unless the airlines/TSA relax their "No-Pee" rule for the last hour of flight!

I'm thinking of opening kiosks in several airports to sell Depends (with the airline insignia of your choice) to departing passengers.

[Blue_In_AK]

That was my first question

when I heard about this. How the hell is our TSA supposed to control what happens in other countries?

[nealmhughes]

3. Aye, but there's the rub.

The US did not know that the rich Nigerian kid for instance was not to fly from Schipol to Detroit. The Brits did and he was not allowed to fly for entry into the UK, but so what, according to Foggy Bottom/Heimland Sekuritate, he was just on the "watch list," and not the US's no fly list. The various agencies are supposed to talk to one another and count on the Dutch immigration/visa folks/airport folks to catch people at the airport at Schipol. They obviously did, not too carefully, but the lad did have a valid US visa for tourism, so why not?

Now, there is a biblical injunction not to let the left hand know what the right is doing, but, honestly, I think that applies to charity and not common sense watching out for public safety. Who are in the dog house? Noone at TSA, rather, a Dutch minister or two, a lady at Foggy Bottom and another in Heimland Securitate.

[grantcart]

4. all foreign carriers, or US carriers for that reason, are required to follow certain

rules to ensure that they are in compliance with US laws in carrying people to the US.

The first point is that they have to check the travel documents and make sure that they have valid Passports and Visas. If they don't and bring someone to the US who is turned away by Customs then they will face a stiff fine.

Secondly they have to check with exclusion lists and again if they bring in someone who is under a prohibited status will face fines.

[blues90]

9. What good are fines if the damage is already done?

I gather these fines are in place just in case yet they would not deter anyone who had it in mind to blow a plane up.

There are cracks in every system.

[grantcart]

16. The fines are for the more common problems of bringing somebody in who has

an improper travel document.

If they violated a "no fly" order the sanctions would be greater but no airline wants to fly one of those anyway.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

5. I can't speak for other departure points, but at Heathrow until recently...

...you underwent a second screening at the gate by TSA agents. Usually it was quite rigorous. I doubt they do that everywhere, though. Security was pretty lax on my last trip back to the US from Rome.

[galileoreloaded]

6. You are correct, there is no implicit guarantee of safety in daily life.

the most motivated wins, and tragedy is often the heavy toll for living in free societies.

[HipChick]

7. Last time I flew out of LHR,they yanked you out for secondary screening..just before you got on the

plane... a lot of history with IRA bombing airport terminals and runways..

As much as I offered my disdain, they were extremely polite about it..

[timeforpeace]

11. That is correct. Some countries are good at it, some barely try.

[pitohui]

13. so what's your point? have you ever driven on the interstate?

any fucktard or addict could be drunk on his butt and crash into you and kill your entire family in a minute

in fact there's a highway accident that kills or cripples someone EVERY FUCKING DAY in america

no one stops driving

how long has it been since there has been a terror attack or an accident that killed someone on a large commercial jet?

flying internationally IS safe, it's safer than staying at home and trying to change a light bulb or stand up in the shower

i've been in some situations, incl. a plane struck by lightning, but i still fly internationally, it's too far to walk, know what i mean?


in my real life i know lots more people killed by falling down and breaking a hip in the home than in going down on a commercial airliner, i bet you do too

security is important and whoever screwed up at AMS needs to have their ass handed to them, but flying internationally is almost the safest thing you can do ALREADY

[blues90]

14. My point was flying not driving

I know all about all the ways one can check out everyday.

[dysfunctional press]

19. especially when you consider the number of planes in the air at any one time around the world...

it remains one of the safest types of transport available.

[Ichingcarpenter]

17. Everyone should get an Anal Probes just like

the aliens do to earthlings when brought aboard their ships.

Its the only rational solution otherwise they don't know what shit
you're bringing onboard.

[JCMach1]

18. It is the luck of the draw... security is tight in some places and lax in others

Some airports are tough: think London, Istanbul, Dubai, even Frankfurt is relatively tough...

Some places are lax: Athens, Kathmandu, several other European destinations...

Heck the Brits even let the TSA operate there...


The thing that shocks me a bit about this case is that he managed to do this out of Schipol where there is double scanning of items and random individual checks of passengers.

[jberryhill]

20. Planes are not allowed to fly to the US unless....

...the airport complies with TSA standards. TSA has audit teams that assess foreign airport operations. Also, before a plane has left the runway to the US, the passenger manifest has already been sent to the US.