Because I Am a Life-Long Democrat, I Will Not Support a Primary Challenge to Obama

[BeFree]

The very idea makes me want to punch someone.

I saw what happened when Carter was 'primaried' and saw that Reagan was then elected because the dems were divided.

That can never happen again, and I would work my ass off to see that it doesn't. No one could work this congress as well as Obama, proof of that is in the HCR. We especially need Obama in his next 4 years because by then the democratic party will be stronger than ever.

To even think about opposing Obama's re-election is nothing but liberal foolishness.

[asdjrocky]

1. Thought copy-cat threads were not allowed.

But then, it is the most sincere form of flattery, isn't it?

[WheelWalker]

4. Heads you win...tails I lose n/t

[David Zephyr]

88. I am flattered, more by your graceful comment than by the copy though.

But as the old marketing saying goes, "there's always room for two" especially when any form of originality is lacking by the imitator, huh?

Ah, but then 'there's nothing like the real thing', is there?

Thanks, asdjrocky. :)

[asdjrocky]

89. I had to say something.

I can't write a simple thread these days without getting it locked, and this stuff just goes on and on.

I liked the original a great deal better, by the way, it had that certain ring of truth.

[BeFree]

99. It was whining

Liberal whining.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigwillq]

2. Violence is never the answer

:P :rofl:

[closeupready]

3. Doesn't sound like you know what a primary is.

Or that your thread is mistitled.

[BeFree]

10. Obama will kick any opponent to the curb

With my help.

[tblue]

16. I think so, too.

There won't be a serious challenger in the primary. Don't worry.

[Oregone]

42. Then why does the idea make you violent?

[BeFree]

60. Punch?

What kind of punch can you throw on DU? It is not violent, its just verbal.

See below for examples. Heck, I've been punched here on DU, lawd knows you have too. :)

[jgraz]

78. It's still a good question. What are you afraid of with a primary challenger?

Carter lost because he had around a 30% approval rating going in to the 1980 elections. Is that what you're anticipating for Obama?

[BeFree]

87. Afraid?

Yeah, I'm afraid the party will split and we get a 21st century Raygun.

[jgraz]

110. We already have one.

[fishnfla]

5. "nothing but liberal foolishness"

these people who are scheming against Obama never liked him to begin with, for other reasons

[depakid]

6. Two of the last three Democratic presidents faced a strong primary challenge

because they alienated their base.

Could easily happen again- particularly since the Obama administration has- contrary to your statement- shown itself to be rather weak (and particularly with respect to healthcare) rather inept in dealing with Congress.

Like or no- create a political vacuum and someone will fill it....

[BeFree]

7. Are you Obama's base? Hahaha

2 out of three?

Obama just whipped congress into passing a bill that Clinton FAILED at. He kicked ass!!

[Kahuna]

11. Not only Clinton, but every president since FDR. nt

[depakid]

14. Wait until ordinary folks find out what in the bill- and what's not

Thanks to pandering to the corrupt corporate interests and failure to push for reconciliation.

Also- I neglected to mention that Ford also had a strong primary challenger in Ronald Reagan- for very similar reasons.

[TheWraith]

19. Do you even know how reconciliation works?

Doing HCR via reconciliation would make it impossible to implement ANY regulations of the insurance industry. Reconciliation can only be used on budget-related items, and even then only with a sunset provision.

[depakid]

25. Yep- I know exactly the Byrd rule works

and how this could and should have been accomplished.

I also know- as you ought to- that if the shoe had been on the other foot, Republicans would have gotten it done (and Democrats would have been whining pathetically to the media).

As it is- Dems now have little to present the public with in 2010 (other than a complicated morass- and promises about 2014). Republicans on the other hand will howlabout mandates.

[TheWraith]

34. Then you should know that you're talking trash. Unsupportable trash at that. nt

[jpak]

56. Yeah - the Obama is a Corporatist Carpet Bombing War Criminal Worse than Bush candidate

will have an easy time thumping Obama in the primaries!

Yup!

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

112. Huh?

:wtf:

[Kahuna]

8. + 1

:popcorn:

[FrenchieCat]

9. Reagan was our worse nightmare, and continues to be.

I don't think it was worth what was done,
to have weakened Carter.
Not even by a mile.

But of course, those who do not learn from the past
are bound to repeat it.

[BeFree]

20. Repeat it?

Over my dead body.

They will not do it again.

[RoadRage]

103. Reagan in a skirt = PALIN

People think she's not a threat.. just like they didn't think Reagan was a threat. She's 1000 X's the threat he was - at least he had a brain - Palin doesn't even have that.

You want to see a freak show in office bigger then Bush 2? Split the Dem's.. and run Bible Spice.. it'll be awesome.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadHound]

13. Wow, you have some serious blinders on there

"No one could work this congress as well as Obama, proof of that is in the HCR."

Yeah, letting the public option go by the wayside, carving away at women's right to choose, decimating the unions and the middle class by taxing those "Cadilac" plans and giving the insurance industry a mandating monopoly, yeah, that's really working Congress there.

If Obama had some real leadership skill and ability to work Congress, we would have a strong public option, women's right to choose would be secure, and we would be taxing the rich instead of saddling the middle class and unions with the bill. Oh, and all of this would have been done before the August break.

Sorry, but Obama has failed abysmally on the HCR. Not to mention doubling down twice on the Afghanistan war and destroying public education, among so many other things.

I'm going to support a strong, or frankly any, true liberal challenge to Obama in the primaries, and if Obama still gets the nod, well, I'll probably go Green in the general. I simply can't support a warmonger and president who is out to destroy education and the middle class, two issues near and dear to me.

Don't like that, too bad, get Obama to change his course.

[BeFree]

17. Nah, I see clearly

Obama kicked ass in congress.

He is presently hamstrung by the failure of those on the the left who want utopia. Clearly all those unreasonable people are showing their asses and are excluding themselves from the process. Good, they are a terrible anchor.

Half the crap in your post is false, and you say I have blinders? You make me laugh.

[MadHound]

27. "Want utopia" LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!

So wanting a strong public option is now utopia? Wow, what an apologist you've become.

What the left really wants, their utopian dream is for true single payer UHC. We recognized that this wasn't going to happen this time around, so we supported the compromise position of a public option. We even lowered our sights and grudgingly supported a Medicare extension. Instead, we got dick, zip, zilch, zero, nada. Those darn leftists, actually wanting something, anything to try and balance that mandated monopoly we just handed over to the insurance industry.

And what is false about my posts. Did he or did he not double down twice, once when he first came into office and the second time just a few weeks ago? Or was that a figment of my imagination?

Are Duncan and Obama pushing charter schools down our throat? Are they not pushing for merit based pay based on the damn test scores? Are they not continuing their support for that POS NCLB? Or am I just imagining all of this?

Does the HCR bill not contain provisions that limits women's right to choose? Or am I once again imagining the Stupak amendment and the Nelson language?

What about the tax on so called Cadillac plans, is that another figment of my imagination?

Show me where I'm wrong on any of this, otherwise all you have done is just shown yourself up for the mindless, brainless, amoral administration cheerleader that you are.

Oh, and as for as hamstrung is concerned, Obama will be hamstrung without the left supporting him they way we did in '08. Try and win an election without us.

[BeFree]

39. Oh

I beg your highness's forgiveness. I am just a lowly amoral, mindless, brainless democrat that is just very f'n happy that we have a dem president.

Sure, he's not perfect and I am working to help things get better. And the first way is to not take a shit on other fellow dems like you are doing.:)

I have found that there is no use getting into the dirt with folks like you with your blindness and "everything has to be perfect" ideology.

Reality is that half the damn country is against me as a leftist and to get them over here I have to carefully coax them, and not beat them over the head with self-righteousness.

Not everyone is perfect like your highness, eh?

[MadHound]

57. You are a typical, modern day Democrat,

When the sledding gets tough, you run away. That's what you've done with this post of yours. I shredded your argument, and rather than fighting back, instead you try to paint me as not living in reality and such, then run the fuck away. Accuse me of "wanting everything perfect" when I've conclusively shown that the left is far from that attitude. Then run away,

Can't argue logically, can only throw out meaningless personal attacks, then run away. A typical modern day Democrat, fit for this modern day Democratic party.

Congratulations, you're fitting right in.:puke:

[BeFree]

62. Run away?

Are you blind?

Tell ya, sweets, I get things done in the real world. And do so with the cognition that I can't always get my way just how I want it.

And when I look around after making a move, I see all the other 'modern day dems' have run away - gone into hiding. That's why the country is so screwed up, there aren't enough like me.

[xchrom]

15. Party doesn't come before principal

Well unless you are an over infatuated juvenile.

[BeFree]

18. Principal

Try principles, then you might have a clue.

Anyway, there is reality and then there is fantasy. Time to wake up and see the reality. No one but Obama can even get close to upholding the left's principles.

[xchrom]

35. Don't even try that 'reality' bull shit

With me.

Give that helpless fuckin bullshit you like to try
and throw around -- if you're that fuckin helpless
and hopeless in politics -- then no wonder this is the nest you
can do. Fuckin pathetic.
Sometimes it's toss up -- do I hate moderate/unthinking
party loyalists more or do I hate retro grade
republicans more? In many wAys it's hard to tell
the difference between such a discusting crew.

[BeFree]

36. So

You just like coming on here and giving party loyalists a hard time?

That's your charm at work, eh? Fuck being united? Division makes you happy? Screw being nice to other DUers? Screw other Dems 'cuz they don't see things just your way?

And people wonder how crooked pubbies ever get the chance.

[xchrom]

114. I could give a shit what some one

As malleable as you thinks about anything.

[inna]

95. "No one but Obama can even get close to upholding the left's principles."

.

enough said.

[The Gunslinger]

96. He hasn't done that yet.

I'm waiting.......

[AnOhioan]

38. Thanks for stating it so succinctly +1

[moondust]

21. I think it's way too early to be having this argument. n/t

[Hawkowl]

22. A Carter/Kennedy ticket would've won

Carter was a political idiot. Much similar to how Obama appears to be evolving. I WILL SUPPORT a strong primary challenger to Obama from the left. In fact, I INSIST upon it. If Obama wishes to seek renomination, he can roll over and accommodate the left for a change by making his strong primary opponent his new VP.

As it stands now, Obama appears to need no help whatsoever from a primary challenger at destroying his chances at reelection.

[demosincebirth]

33. Kennedy would not be second fiddle to Carter. No way!

Kennedy wouldn't even shake Carter's hand at the convention. Thats how much Kennedy disliked Carter.

[Hawkowl]

45. Oooh I remember!

Good clarification on your part though. Carter/Kennedy would've won, but there was little chance of that ever happening!

[TexasObserver]

23. The party primary is where each Democrat should back whoever they like.

A sitting Democratic president can have challengers in the primary season, and those challenges are often a vehicle for moving the party a direction it needs to move.

It's part of every Democrat's right.

[BeFree]

26. And my right to fight it

I saw what happened in 1980. Never again. The ego trip then almost ruined America. We will have 8 years of Obama. Get used to it. All together. One party. United.

[TexasObserver]

28. It's not your decision, but the decision of each Democrat.

You can get as mad as you like, but it's not going to do anything except make your heart beat faster.

[BeFree]

41. Heh

They will feel my wrath. You think the Obama haters have wrath? They don't know the half of it.

[blondeatlast]

51. Due respect, but we had an enormously tough primary this year (and I remember 1980; my first electio

Keep in mind that there are no, repeat, no, strong Republicans on the horizon.

We can get through a challenger and I will have more confidence casting my vote for our incumbent if he understnads that he can serve the people and still win the election.

[BeFree]

66. Were you around...

...for the raygun years? People quit on Carter. Just laid down and quit. Carter warned us about all the problems we are now living, so the people elected raygun.

So people who are already quitting on Obama are giving me a flashback. Not good.

[blondeatlast]

70. I'm not quitting--I just don't see a real danger to having a challenger.

Of course I remmber the RayGun disaster; I was (obviously) just starting my adult life then.

Miserable times.

[Thickasabrick]

24. ...

[rudy23]

29. Another post on "liberal foolishness." It makes you want to punch someone?

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with criticism of the President from the wing of the party Rahm Emanuel openly brags about being able to ignore.

[girl gone mad]

30. The idea of democracy makes you want to punch someone?

How authoritarian. The world must be a very scary place for you, with all of the free will and independent thought going on.

[demosincebirth]

31. Ditto

[blondeatlast]

32. I'll decide when the time comes, but I would never DISCOURAGE a challenger.

It's healthy and it just strebngthens the party to have competition.

[LWolf]

37. I hope passionately that there will be a strong challenge from the left.

Is that how you handle your anger? Punching?

Name calling? Bullying?

If I were standing in front of you, instead of talking to you in cyber-space, would I have to disarm you?

If you don't want the dems divided, I have two suggestions. The first is retroactive:

1. Don't nominate, campaign for, or vote for divisive candidates who resemble the opposition more than the party's voters.

2. Convince Obama to get rid of his corporo-facist/dlc/3rd way/"new" dem appointments and make an immediate, and sharp left turn with his policies.

[walldude]

40. The very idea makes me want to punch someone

Well that is very democratic and liberal of you. :rofl:

[BeFree]

43. Yeah, I know

It is said liberals are afraid to fight, much less throw a punch.

I ain't that type of liberal. I throw punches, and they land. Hard. Many freepers have felt my punch.

And if you question my loyalty to democracy, then you are f'd up, dude.

[walldude]

47. I didn't question anything except the fact that you said that

you wanted to punch people who disagreed with you.

I for one don't think hitting people because they have a different philosophy than you do solves many problems except to boost your own ego.

Many freepers have felt your punch? You have punched out freepers or was that a figurative statement?

And frankly if you have been punching out freepers then I should be questioning your mental stability and not your loyalty to any party or ideal.

And if it was figurative then your statement about freepers feeling your punch is laughable. What did you hit them with a thread of DU? :rofl:

[BeFree]

74. Duh, dude

Of course it is figurative punching.
I am a pacifist.

On the streets, when a freeper and I get going, they walk away mentally hurting and questioning their ideas because they got verbally punched.

Try it sometime. You punch pretty hard here, try it in real life.

[walldude]

79. I do I just don't call it punching..

My work environment is chock full of freeper types, I have fun with them all day long. Only I do it with humor. If you can make someone laugh at themselves, you can also make them see a side they aren't used to.

Here's the thing, by using your "punching" metaphor what you are doing is dehumanizing your opponent. "They are just freepers, so I'm going to verbally knock them out". That is the easiest way to win a debate. Dehumanize your opponent. The toughest way to win is to make them think. The easiest way to make them think is with music or humor. Those are the two human constants, I have yet to find a human being who doesn't like to laugh or listen to music. Look what happened to Crossfire. Jon Stewart used humor to make them look like the useless tools they are, and he did such a good job they lost their show.

Of course this is just my opinion, but it comes from a lifetime of experience with all kinds of people.

[BeFree]

86. Oh, ok

So there you are in corporate office, making peace with the freepers, eh?
Kinda what Obama has to do in DC.

Whenever I get working around a freeper they usually are fired, or quit.
I don't cotton to being nice to freepers.

Anyway, maybe you tell Obama to play some music to the DC freepers?
Think that'll help? Or make jokes? Use humor? Just have fun with the freeps?

[LeftyMom]

44. I support a primary challenge from the left. Feel free to try to punch me.

Once. ;)

[BeFree]

46. Already? Just 11 months and you are a quitter?

You aren't in this to help? Just f things up and cause problems? Afraid to do the hard gritty work of getting a congress in place that better represents the left?

Just looking forward to destroying Obama, are yee? Fuck that!!

[LeftyMom]

50. Yep, I'm single-handedly taking down a popular administration.

Thank goodness somebody noticed my nefarious scheme. :eyes:

[BeFree]

58. No your not

But you sure as hell are not helping us make progress with your give up and throw it all away attitude. Thank gawd you are pretty much alone, eh? Imagine if the whole party did what you are doing.

[LeftyMom]

61. Yes, gawd forbid anybody express a policy disagreement or a differing ideological perspective.

If centrism is so fantastic and popular and representative of the will of the electorate, why are you people so fucking afraid of anybody mentioning a different perspective?

[BeFree]

69. Really? You really have to ask why?

One word: raygun.

We could easily get another raygun the way the "yes we quit" folks are acting.

[LeftyMom]

72. I understand your argument, I just think it's extremely stupid.

Sorry.

[grahamhgreen]

55. You're the one who is quitting.

[BeFree]

64. Eh?

I'm not quitting on Obama. Are you blind?

[grahamhgreen]

68. No, you're quitting on us, on the policies he was elected on. Such as a Public Health Plan.

[CK_John]

59. I believe he will not run for reelection, so there will be a primary but Obama will not be on

the ballot. Who will be? I have no idea.

[GreenArrow]

115. strangely,

I could see that happening.

[27inCali]

49. Obama is the leftist President we're gonna for a while

the country just isn't there yet.

make the best of it you can, because we have the best possible environment for progressive change right now than we'll probably have for years and we got about one more year before the Left destroys it.

bills got watered down by numerical realities in Congress. Big fucking surprise. Pressing for change is never easy and our enemies are always going to force painful and divisive concessions to try and weaken our resolve.

If you tear Obama down, you only get a Repug in his place.

cause there is no way on earth Nader or any other idiot arrogant enough to challenge him from the left could even beat Obama let alone come within 20 percentage points of winning.

[LeftyMom]

54. I'm sorry, I can't parse that. Please let me know if you edit it into something intelligible.

[27inCali]

65. leftist president we are going to get for a while

and if the Left turns on him after one year, it's almost a garantee that even if he is not replaced by a Repug, the Dem replacing him will be another wishy washy DLC type.

I have said to my wife before, "You're so impossible to please, after a while I'm just going to give up trying to please you"

If the Left continues to be impossible to please, no one is going to want to even try and important progressive ideas will be left in the lurch.

Dem politicians will take one look at the progressive legislation and not even want to take it up because they know if they make any compromises to get it passed they will be crucified by the Left.

seriously, if you want more progressive policy, support our president. He will compromise, and it will frustrate you but at the end of the day he's moving the country forward slow and steady to a point it will be ready to accept more and more progressive ideas.

If we undercut him, we divide our party -and our power to affect positive change and nothing progressive gets done.

[LeftyMom]

71. Nope, still wouldn't pass third grade English.

Please don't make me do corrections. I'm homeschooling a small child, I do enough of that already.

[BeFree]

73. Write on, 27inCali

You make a lot of sense. That's what this thread is about: making progress.
Some folks want to regress two years back to the primary, again.
We real progressives won't allow that.

[closeupready]

101. This is utter nonsense.

Don't know where to begin.

[leftstreet]

48. What will you do if he doesn't run?

Will you support the nominee?

[Oregone]

53. Punch his doorman

[grahamhgreen]

52. R U kidding - the HCR is a victory of corporations over common sense.

[amborin]

67. +1000

[jb2u11]

63. It's our responsibility

If he doesn't do as promised he should be opposed by we the people that elected him. We need to do better at hold our elected representatives feet to the fire otherwise it will just be more government run amock.........and that's not good for anybody.

[GreenArrow]

75. Because I am a lifelong American

I will support a primary challenge to Obama.

[jgraz]

76. You go with the President you have, eh Rahmsfeld?

Not the President you thought you were voting for...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

77. As a lifelong Democrat I vote principles, not politicians or party.

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." --John Quincy Adams

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

[MrsCorleone]

81. Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Defense et al send their sincerest thanks

for your part in ensuring a Republican victory.

[BeFree]

83. That's what I'm saying...

...thank you, MrsCorleone.

[MrsCorleone]

91. Anytime, BeFree.

:hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

84. Oh, but of course. The always popular "not as bad" argument.

aka "Will you have one teaspoon of arsenic or two in your tea?"

You'll have to do better than that.

[MrsCorleone]

90. Do better? And here I thought the implication of my post, albeit short,

was pretty clear.

Seriously, though, you've fallen victim to the corporate conservative meme. They couldn't ask for a better class of voter, the one that ensures their victory.

Am I thrilled to see that you're pissed off? Heck yeah! Just be sure to direct your protest in the right direction.

It's going to get a lot uglier out there. Don't take your ball and go home so early in the game.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

106. Be sure and get back to me when my vote elects a Republican President.

Or, when your vote elects a Democrat.

In the meantime, I'm with Jefferson and John Q.

[MrsCorleone]

111. I would like nothing more then to be proven wrong.

I mean that sincerely.

[ddeclue]

80. no: That's because you are a life long corporacrat..not Democrat.

:P

[BeFree]

82. Ha

Shows you don't have de clue about me. Never taken a check from corporate. Well maybe one or two.

How fucking dare you say I am not Democrat.

You are just full of bad ass trash, eh? Proud of your bad self, eh?
Get your kicks by coming on DU and calling members "not Democrat"?

[ddeclue]

92. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it's a duck..

Obama is a corporatist.

If you support him at all costs you are too.

Q.E.D.

[Major Hogwash]

85. 90% of all gay people who voted supported Democrats in 2008 --- not any more!!!!!!!

Throw them under the Obama bus.
Drive right the fuck over them.

Fuck 'em.
Bush did.
Clinton did.

Who cares?

Fuck 'em.

I got mine, you get yours.

Fuck 'em.

DADT forever!!

DOMA forever!!!

Fuck 'em!

[MyNameGoesHere]

93. I am sorry you may be a Democrat

but you are not an American. A real American welcomes ALL political processes even ones they do not agree with. Opposition is the ultimate insult to tyranny. I welcome all challengers and all opposition. It is the way AMERICA is supposed to be. Do not be an asshat and try to sell us a president some of us no longer have a use for and label it as "your" liberal foolishness.

[BeFree]

98. And now...

...am being called un-American. How fucking low will some of you go?

Talk about wanting to throw a punch, some of you are begging!!

I won't send in the troops, call the cops or file a lawsuit against anybody who runs against Obama. But I will throw all the verbal punches I can muster to throw them under the bus where they belong!!

[Patriot 76]

94. Primary the President if you must.

Just make sure you come back to vote for the Democrat on the top line.

If not, you will be thrown under the bus at that point, but not before.

And since we're geting so active this early in the cycle. There's 18 repuklican Senators seats up in November.

Flipping just a few of those seats while holding our own is much more critical then challenging a sitting President.

[The Gunslinger]

97. "liberal foolishness"

Yes sir Mr. Hannity I will fall in line.

[JNelson6563]

102. How much time and energy will be wasted on this idiocy?

I saw an epic thread this morning stating the opposite of this one.

I wish everyone would take a clear look at the political reality of this, and by "political reality" I am of course referring to money. Obama raised a QUARTER BILLION DOLLARS in his last election. No one will step up to take a crack at that. He beat the Clinton machine. Formidable? Try unstoppable.

No, Obama will go unchallenged in the primary leading up to the 2012 election. But of course there will be countless hysterical posts on the matter, untold hours of keyboard warriors with n'ary a clue--burning the midnight oil pounding out argument after argument on the matter. All for nothing.

How sad.

Julie

[BeFree]

105. Indeed

Saw that thread. That's why this one went up.

What is really sad that, as you can see, if you are a strong supporter of having the party unified as never before, you get called all kinds of names. Kinda drags them out of the woodworks. Good to know just who the opposition is, eh?

But your point is good. With the money and power, only a fool will challenge Obama.

[Aviation Pro]

104. Put it back at 0.....

....

[tabasco]

107. The utopians always give us someone like Reagan or Nixon.

And spend eight years saying it wasn't their fault.

[BeFree]

108. yeah

Pretty much they sent Gore and Kerry packing too.

Unlike the pubbies who put aside most of their minor differences, some dems just can't seem to see the big picture. Well, the big picture has become Reagan, Bush, and stolen elections. Will they ever learn?

[LostInAnomie]

109. Exactly.

You left Bush off the list though.

[voc]

113. OP

Those who disagree are having fun with ya or are on the wrong board...oh wait.

Kickety kick.

[Bluebear]

116. "The very idea makes me want to punch someone." - "Liberal foolishness" -ain't you a party in a post

[Odin2005]

117. Then you put loyalty to a person above democracy.

A primary is supposed to be democracy in action, NOT a coronation.