Profiling is not necessarily a bad thing

[Christa]

Years ago I was visiting friends in Israel. The day I was leaving I was pulled out of the line where we were waiting to go through security. I was questioned for almost an hour; over and over I was asked why I flew alone, where I got the money for my ticket. They called my friends who I visited in Galilee, even called the firm I was working for to make sure I was not lying. The security police kept asking me what I had in my luggage and if I packed it myself. They refused to touch my suitcase or let me near it.


I am a white, middle aged woman and at that stage white, middle aged women were often used by terrorists and drug dealers.

[Captain Hilts]

1. There are many different profiles. I was regularly searched at the US-Canada border because I

stayed in Canada for two weeks. I got good at it. I just called them on saying it was "random."

Now that the two countries share more info, I don't get pulled as much.

[pipi_k]

11. You just can't win....

My one and only trip to Canada lasted less than 24 hours before the car started leaking oil and we had to turn around and come back.

Got searched at the US border and questioned about WHY I and my companion had stayed at a particular motel in VT, WHY we only stayed less than one day, WHY WHY WHY.

Stay in Canada less than a day, get searched. Stay there two weeks, get searched.

Oh, I might add that the border agent was an arrogant dickhead who was probably looking for some reason to pull people over and have them searched because it made him feel powerful...

Anyway, when the interrogations were done, we got an apology from someone else.


Big goddamned deal. I'll bet in the time it took to search us and our car and bags, twenty drug smugglers probably got through

[ixion]

2. Profiling in a free society is an abomination

and using Israel as an example of what constitutes a free society is way of the mark.

This is the land of the Free and the Brave, not the land of the Enslaved and Terrified, although with crap like the so-called 'War on Terror' we are quickly becoming the latter.

Profiling is a part of that becoming.

[RumJungle]

14. So if the authorities know roughly what they are looking for they should ignore that and

waste time patting down old ladies and Nuns?

[ixion]

17. key phrase: "roughly what they are looking for"

people looking to do others harm come in all shapes and sizes.

By "roughly what they are looking for" you mean, I assume, people of Middle Eastern persuasion.

That is called stereotype, and generally causes more harm than good.

[RumJungle]

18. No thats the point...

They are mostly young muslim men of either african or arab descent. Sorry if that upsets you but it's a fact. If you had to guard your mothers plane from hijackers and you could only pull so many people out of line to check further what would you do?

I doubt you would pull a lady or old man...

[babylonsister]

3. I've been through the Tel Aviv airport, and they question everyone.

I was also questioned, and I am the same demo as you are. But I don't know how the US would do this, given the amount of people and airports in this country. I don't like the idea of profiling people solely due to the color of their skin. What color was Richard Reid? And is there enough time to profile everyone here?

[Stinky The Clown]

4. Honestly, I think there's a huge difference between racial profiling and behavioral profiling

Racial profiling is never justified.

Behavioral profiling is entirely proper, it seems to me.

The difficulty is demonstrating unequivocally that one is not the other.

[babylonsister]

10. I don't have a problem with behavioral profiling either.

The question is, who sets the parameters of who or what is and isn't suspicious. I imagine we should be taking notes from the Israelis.

This latest threat/guy was a good candidate because he was well-traveled and educated; he might have known how not to attract attention. But not having any luggage seems to me to be a boneheaded move, yet he still didn't raise any alarm bells.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. No luggage, one way ticket, paid in cash ...... 3 red flags

All part of behavioral profiling.

But he wasn't an Arab, so ....... (<----snarky rank speculation)

[KharmaTrain]

5. Flying Isn't A Right...

When you step into an airport or onto an airplane you are subject to their rules...if you don't like it, walk or take a train. I've been very critical of the TSA and the security hassles I've encountered in traveling. If there's a silver lining in this latest fiasco is it may wake up the government that their current system is ineffective and having people take off shoes and belts isn't going to stop someone from sneaking in a PETN bomb.

While I'm against arbitrary profiling, I don't see a problem with a few selective questions of ALL travelers...such as where are you going, how long and where you're staying. I don't see these questions as being obtrusive and if a trained professional senses there needs to be more questioning and investigation, it's being done with due cause. As we saw with this situation, there were plenty of red flags that didn't require profiling but where some questioning and better cooperation between the many governments and agencies intertwined in "security".

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Well I'd hate to copy anything Israel does

Just sayin . . .

[Christa]

21. They have an excellent safety record

just saying ...

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. At what cost?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. At the airport, little to none

I've been through TLV any number of times. Security starts out side the airport on the access road. Its quite effective.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. I was thinking about the cost to civil rights and privacy

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. Again, little to none

Israeli screenings are thorough, coming in and going out. However, I have never felt my civil right or privacy was intruded upon more than needed to insure safety on a flight. I have drawn the short straw both in Israel and the US and gotten the full treatment. Not pleasant, but not overwhelming.

Also remember There is no civil right to travel into/through a foreign country and many countries think the US idea of rights is in many cases silly, including Canada, the UK and other European nations.

[mmonk]

7. Probable cause is better.

[The Straight Story]

8. Wanna see DU profile? Post a thread: "Abortion Clinic Bombed in Oklahoma" with no details about perp

Trust me, you will get a profile in seconds....

Do the same with "Plane bomb brings down airliner" and then watch me say it was probably someone islamic - and then watch me be called names.

[RumJungle]

15. Good call....nt

[Mimosa]

9. 2 Muslim MDs I know said they'd rather be profiled than dead

One Muslim MD on a board where I post had posted a topic urging profiling right after this latest attempt. Another says it would be simple to use data which earmarks Muslim type names and people from certain contries for preflight investigation when they book. EVERYTHING about this latest nutjob indicated he should have been stopped from fgetting on an America bound flight. His own fatherhad reported him to the US Embassy!

[marmar]

20. Well, those two Muslim MDs said it, so it must be the feeling of all Muslims....

:eyes:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

12. Are you talking about behavioral profiling only?

[Xenotime]

16. I profile rethuglicans everyday.

[NNN0LHI]

19. How would you have profiled a Catholic, blond, blue eyed Timothy McVeigh?

Just curious.

Don

[Stinky The Clown]

24. If you profiled him on those traits, you'd be racially profiling. But if you looked at .....

..... other factors, like associations, travel, etc., you'd be on firm ground.

Honestly, McVeigh would be harder to spot because in his day and time, he was not a standout in any way.

[NNN0LHI]

25. Associations like his being an NRA member, an Army vet and a Republican?

Can you see where this is headed?

Don

[Stinky The Clown]

28. Yes, those associations are quite valid to profile, it seems to me

In and of themselves, in that combination, they're probably so common as to be worthless. But there were other signs for him, as I recall. His associates up in Michigan were known to be fringe people. I'm a bit foggy, but it seems to me there were other bits of information that could have been clues.

But never called attention to himself, it is very difficult to profile a domestic terrorist unless there is on-the-ground intelligence. Like infiltrating one of the fringe groups with whom he was associated.

on edit: And yes, I can see where this is headed. Truth told, were I in the business of looking for wackadoodles, I'd follow places like DU and the conservative versions thereof. Not to read your posts or mine, but just to look for word patterns. And that's probably actually going on. And why not? Everything here is surely in public, like it or not.

[marmar]

22. Profiling wasn't even necessary in this case.....He was on the freaking terrorist watchlist.

The ball was dropped.