Myth: Flight NW253 Terrorist Boarded The Flight With No Passport

[proud2BlibKansan]

Earlier today the Detroit News and New York Daily News reported that a couple, Kurt & Lori Haskell, of Newport, Michigan, both attorneys, witnessed Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab boarding Delta Flight 253, operated by Northwest Airlines without a passport at Amsterdam’s Schiphol Airport.

Kurt & Lori Haskell clam that Abdulmutallab, was ‘poorly dressed’ and was accompanied by a man dressed in an ‘expensive suit’ at the ticket counter. The Haskell’s have told reporters that the well dressed man asked that Abdulmutallab be allowed to board the flight without a passport, representing Abdulmutallab as a Sudanese refugee, stating “He’s from Sudan and we do this all the time.” The Haskell’s go on claim that Abdulmutallab and the man in the suit were turned over to a manager down a hallway and they didn’t see him again until he was on the plane.

This story is completely false on a number of levels.

We’ll start with the basics:

- Airlines are required to transmit passenger lists to the United States prior to their departure, as per the TSA Secure Flight program

- Abdulmutallab would have been required to provide his passport number to the airline prior to receiving his boarding pass

- Passenger security screening at Schiphol Airport is conducted at the gate for all non-Schengen Flights, passengers must provide a passport and boarding pass to clear security

Now onto to the not-so basic aspects of this story being completely false…

…entering the United States as a refugee falls under the US Citizen & Immigration Services Section 208 of the Immigration & Naturalization Act, as created in 1952

Under USCIS Section 208 Abdulmutallab would have been required to fill out substantial paperwork proving refugee status. This paperwork cannot be filled out the same day as a flight, and certainly not at the airport. Paperwork, like all governmental paperwork must be processed and proper documentation will then issued to the person seeking to enter the United States with refugee status.

If Abdulmutallab were seeking Asylum status in the United States, he would have been required to already be in the United States, with a legal entry, then beginning the asylum status process.

Airport and airline staff aren’t authorized to overrule United States immigration laws. Airlines are very careful about passports and visas, as any airline that transports a person to the United States (or any other country) without proper documentation is not only required to cover the costs of flying the person out of the United States for deportation, but also faces significant fines levied against them.

No airline wants to deal with deportation or fines.

All relevant information pertaining to the rules and regulations regarding USCIS Section 208, INA, have been verified with Chief Ron Smith of U.S. Customs and Border Protection in Washington, DC.

It has previously been established that Abdulmutallab held a Nigerian passport and a valid Visa to the United States issued in June 2008, valid through June 2010. With more than 6 months left on Abdulmutallab’s Visa to the United States his legal status to board the flight would not have been challenged by the airline.

As the facts surrounding Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab and Delta Air Lines Flight NW253 continue to unfold it is important to be factual on important issues, such as those pertaining to security issues.

Happy Flying!

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyingwithfish/2009/12/28/myth-flight-nw253-terrorist-boarded-the-flight-with-no-passport/

[spanone]

1. there is NO WAY you can travel the world without a passport NO WAY

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. Hello

Yet that fact is lost on the terror crowd.

[struggle4progress]

87. Abdulmutallab Had Passport, Dutch Say

(CBS/AP) The suspected terrorist who tried to blow up Northwest Flight 253 Christmas day did present a passport to authorities in Amsterdam before boarding the Detroit-bound plane, Holland's counter-terrorism agency said Wednesday.

Abdulmutallab arrived in Amsterdam on Friday from Lagos, Nigeria. After a layover of less than three hours, he passed through a security check at the gate in Amsterdam, including a hand baggage scan and a metal detector, officials said.

Abdulmutallab was carrying a valid Nigerian passport and had a valid U.S. visa, the Dutch said. His name did not appear on any Dutch list of terror suspects ...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/30/world/main6037474.shtml

[spanone]

90. then these folks story is moot.

[jberryhill]

109. Ah, but can you trust the Dutch?

...smugly posing for cigar boxes, legally smoking tulips, and teaching their young boys to finger dykes.

Then they charge you for your own dinner on a date, while their uncles keep telling you how to run your life!

The Dutch bear watching, I tell you.

[malaise]

2. All valid but suppose this was a Special Ops

arrangement and everything was planned including the fact that the attempt was unsuccessful.

[chimpymustgo]

3. Malaise, could you elaborate on your theory? This has not smelled right since it started.

[ellenfl]

7. terror! terror! terror! i smell fish. eom

[malaise]

22. Well I donned my tin foil hat

(it's always close by). What if this lonely unhappy loser is just a patsy who was well set up by Cheney insiders to put Obama on the back foot re Gitmo and the New York trials and of course kick off the Rethug campaign for 2010? Why else are Rethugs acting the completely opposite way they reacted to the shoe bomber from a previous Christmas. Was Reid tried in Federal Court and sentenced? Why should the Nigerian be handed over the DOD? Did he do anything different?
Why was Reid a lone wolf but the Nigerian isn't (according to the spinmeisters). Didn't he have the same chemical? This is way too neat for my liking and the hacks were out early to push their agenda.
This kid looked medicated to the max!

Nah I'm not sure this one passes the smell test, but then I'm a well known cynic.

[jmowreader]

46. I understand his theory

1. Right Wing operatives who want to (a) get the American people to demand even more of their rights be stripped and (b) weaken the sitting president decide to run a false flag operation.

2. They get a man, make him up to look scroungy and outfit him with some sort of low explosive that makes popping sounds.

3. They take him to Amsterdam and run the "he's from a terrible awful foreign country, we have to get him to America right now so he can live in freedom" act on a ticket agent.

4. He sets the explosive on fire while the plane's in flight.

5. After one of the passengers takes heroic action, the press announces the dude had an atomic bomb strapped to his balls and he was going to take out the whole world.

6. Then we find out it was an Al Qaeda plot and millions of men are standing by to blow their nuts off for the greater glory of Allah.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. + 1,000,000

[clear eye]

55. And either they get a guy to call the press claiming to be the father who

had previously reported his son to the U.S. embassy, or the patsy really was a clueless would-be terrorist (more likely) who was recruited for the job just because the conspirators determined he was just what they were looking for when he was brought to their attention by the father's report (echoes of Sirhan Sirhan). That way even the terrorist passenger when captured could never reveal the true identities of the players, b/c he wouldn't know himself. That seems less risky than picking someone who would later be in custody to pretend to be a terrorist.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. I had that same thought

:thumbsup::

This story hasn't smelled right at all.

[clear eye]

8. Since you're now saying that the entire thrust of your OP may be irrelevant and misleading

(if this was some kind of agency operation or the airline personnel were successfully conned), perhaps you might want to take down your OP?

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. No because my OP questions the witness

I honestly believe there is enough bullshit in this story to shoot holes through much of it.

[clear eye]

29. Evidence of "bullshit" by the witnesses?

And merely reciting the regulations that would have had to have been broken does not cut it. Was there other people there who are offering proof that this was a lie (video of the guy going to the counter solo, for instance)? Did the witnesses trip up and contradict themselves? What I read were quite consistent accounts. Is there some concrete evidence of a motive for them to make all this up?

Absent that, I have doubts about your "bullshit" meter.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. You doubt this "witness" isn't enjoying his sudden fame?

His motive seems pretty obvious.

[clear eye]

33. I doubt a couple of ordinary folks would take that sort of risk unless I see some hinky behavior

from them that makes them suspect. I tend to believe people's firsthand accounts over a debunker's secondhand theory w/o any evidence.

[jberryhill]

92. Indeed - What would motivate a pair of lawyers to claim the airline allowed an unqualified passenger

Hmmm.... I'm going to have to think pretty hard about why on earth a pair of lawyers would be looking to blame airline personnel for putting an unqualified passenger on a plane, who turned out to be a terrorist.

Lemme know if you think of anything.

[snagglepuss]

60. DING DING DING We have a winner. What motivation do the witnesses

have to lie? Why would they implicate the airport manager, the airport clerk, and the security guard in this lie? Why hasn't the Dutch or US govt denied this story outright. When would the couple have time and the presence of mind to concoct the story which they related immediately upon landing?


My criticism of the couple which I posted once this story appeared is that having heard this interaction they didn't do anything. Had I heard this, I would have demanded to speak to the manager to know how it was possible to fly without a passport and get assurance he would not succeed boarding the plane.

[clear eye]

88. I strongly agree about their inaction, though since the airline

was ostensibly handling it, if they went to a security guard, I doubt the outcome would have been different. Of course none of the other passengers w/i earshot has even come forward to admit they heard the argument, as they must have.

I also think nothing good can come of calling the only people to speak up about suspicious goings-on, liars. We want people to be less reluctant to "get involved", not more so.

[snagglepuss]

89. I so agree about the negative consequences of disparaging witnesses.

They have to be god awful stupid to connoct a story that implicates at least 3 airport staff and potentially make them the laughingstock of the world. After experiencing such a horrifying brush with death, who on earth could clobble together this story out of thin air?

People are going to be watching what happens to the Haskells and if they are raked over coals as blatant liars, no one is going to step forward with 'wierd' and/or improbable sounding stories in the future.

[jberryhill]

94. What motivation?

What do Mr. Haskell and his wife do for a living?

Once you figure that out, then ask yourself why they would implicate airline employees in what happened.

[jberryhill]

95. What motivation?

What do Mr. Haskell and his wife do for a living?

Once you figure that out, then ask yourself why they would implicate airline employees in what happened.

[snagglepuss]

98. He is lawyer and I read somewhere she is as well.

If you're insinuating that they want to sue I think they could come up with a better story than what they provided. It seems to me though I'm no lawyer that the airport staff if not the airport authority could sue them for libel if its determined they made this whole thing up.

[jberryhill]

105. No

They have not named any airport staff. And "defaming" an airport is an odd thing.

You seem to be under the impression that "airport staff" runs the boarding gate. The airline runs its own boarding process. The airport has nothing to do with it. But that is consistent with your belief that an "airport manager" runs everything that happens in an airport.

The airport and it's staff are in Holland. The airline, which controls boarding, is conveniently subject to US jurisdiction.

[snagglepuss]

106. Live and learn. So then if you were not insinuating they would sue, what

were you insinuating with your previous enigmatic post that reads like something out of Mission Impossible?

[jberryhill]

108. Are you dense?

The point of finding fault with the airline is to sue the airline. Your comment about libel makes no sense, since no identifiable person has been defamed.

[snagglepuss]

110. Am I dense? I don't know if I am best person to answer that authoratively.

However, be that as it may, I don't think much of the theory that he cooked up this unlikely scenerio in order to sue. As has been stated on this thread numerous times, the likihood of anyone boarding a plane without a passport is highly improbable. Given its improbablity why then would Haskell connoct a story that included if not hinged on that particular fact?

[jberryhill]

111. Because of the way lawsuits work...

One concocts a story for the purpose of filing the complaint. Then, discovery is used as a fishing expedition to find any mistake the airline made, however minor. Then the complaint is amended to have all of the events hinge on that complaint.

The entire reason Clinton was impeached was because the Lewinsky affair was smoked out in the course of the Paula Jones lawsuit which, itself, was ultimately dismissed as having no merit.

[snagglepuss]

112. hmmmm

:freak:


:think:



:yoiks:

[CrunchMaster]

114. It's possible that a combination of disinfo and error are being fed into this story

It is hard to know the facts by just looking at what one person says and taking that as gospel. You have to look at a wider group of facts and start to get a picture of what the true story is by what the preponderance of evidence is pointing towards. I don't know one way or the other if the Dutch are lying or if the American couple is lying(or mistaken). But more knowledge about what others saw may clear up some of the confusion surrounding this case. Where are the airport video tapes? A video tape may help to clear some of this up. Lack of a video tape may implicate the Dutch.

A lot of different ways this could go... more facts need to be laid out so that a picture of the truth can start to be formed.

[clear eye]

6. Or suppose the airport manager was bribed.

The "sponsor" may have had authentic-appearing credentials from a humanitarian organization. If the manager had been convinced that the guy was a legitimate refugee w/ no grudge against the U.S. and the bribe was large enough...

On edit: The alleged words of the "sponsor" as reported by the witnesses--"We do this all the time"--are just what someone trying to con an airline staffer would say when claiming to be from a humanitarian refugee organization. The witness story just sounds right to me, and a far-fetched thing to invent. What would be the motive?

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. What would be the motive of the witness story?

It's all over the internet. And he and his wife were on the teevee.

They got the attention they want. That's the motive.

[clear eye]

32. So they would risk being exposed nationally as liars?

If they were thinking of lying they would know that airport security cameras would probably pick up the absence of the other man.

Sorry, in my book the odds are the couple (both were interviewed so I don't know why you call them a man "and his wife") are reporting what they remember, whether or not the guy they saw was actually the terrorist. They never claimed to have heard his name.

I'd need more evidence to conclude that a couple of ordinary people were lying to the media.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Hey - Balloon Boy's parents tried it

It's not a stretch at all, IMO.

[snot]

38. I've read the Haskells are attorneys; they'd have a lot to lose by lying, not to mention

that balloon boy's dad went to jail.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. Fred Phelps is an attorney. So is Orlie Taitz.

[snot]

65. You prove my point. Phelps has been disbarred, and last I heard, Taitz was under threat

of sanctions. Both are obviously heavily invested in their causes.

Have you seen anything suggesting why the Haskells would risk their careers to promote a fabrication?

[jberryhill]

96. They'd have a lot to gain by filing suit against the airline /nt

[Neecy]

23. That's just not a credible scenario

I was an airport manager for an international airline and all of the authentic-appearing credentials in the world wouldn't change the fact that the guy couldn't be boarded without a passport - period.

Upon arrival in Detroit, he would have been processed and deported. The airline would have paid a ridiculous fine. The manager could have been convinced that the guy was a legitimate refugee, but it wouldn't have stopped the deportation process and the manager would have known this.

The whole story is ridiculous from start to finish. It didn't happen. These people either misunderstood what they saw or are making it up out of whole cloth.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. We are in complete agreement

:thumbsup:

[Neecy]

37. It's just a dumb story

If the guy had raised hell at check in, distracting and upsetting the agent to the point where he/she missed the passport check, it would have been at least somewhat credible. It doesn't really happen, but it would have at minimum made some sense. I don't know about DL/NW's system, but most now require a passport number to produce a boarding card for an international departure.

If this was some kind of conspiracy, they would have provided him with a fraudulent passport. They wouldn't have attempted something like this that was guaranteed to fail.

The idea that it was openly disclosed that the guy didn't have a passport and they let him board anyway is so beyond belief that the first time I heard this fairy tale I laughed out loud. I think these people are just flat-out lying.

[snagglepuss]

72. If it is an outright lie, why hasn't either govt denied it? Why wait?

[el_bryanto]

9. What is your evidence for this claim? n/t

[truth2power]

15. I've been going with that scenario since the get-go....

If the mythical al-ciada really wanted to blow up a plane, they'd do it.

<putting on flame suit> :hide:

[Barack_America]

24. If you believe that Dick Cheney masterminded this with his CIA connections...

...he is always bragging about, the passport thing makes no sense.

That would shift the blame on Dutch transportation officials and away from the Obama administration. Definitely not what Mr. Cheney would want.

If you want a good Cheney/CIA conspiracy theory, ask why the reports regarding the risk Mr. Abdulmuttalab posed never made it out of the CIA in Washington? Why that information was not passed to other agencies as it was supposed to?

[jberryhill]

68. Go Put On A Suit And Tell An Airline Gate Agent You Are "Special Ops"

...let us know how that works out for you.

[Pavulon]

100. Then he would be flying on an immaculate forgery.

not some half cocked mihop, insult to a frogs intelligence bullshit?

[spanone]

10. Kurt & Lori Haskell ....who interviewed them? why hasn't the media sought them out?

who released their 'opinions'?????

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Kurt has a blog

He released his story there. :eyes:

[spanone]

14. thanks!

[jberryhill]

80. Link....

I'd like to see this blog.

[RockaFowler]

17. CNN interviewed them

It's in the Videos section

[Turborama]

18. Which is where I originally posted the debunking in this thread's OP

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=418019&mesg_id=418158

[ceile]

81. NPR for one.

Yesterday or the day before they interviewed Haskell. Struck me as someone looking for their "15 minutes"....

[Turborama]

104. Alex Jones is another, he's just done an interview with him.

Google "Flight 253 WITNESS Kurt Haskell & Alex Jones - No Passport, Bomber Had Inside Help!" to find it.

[MindPilot]

11. The possibility that the rules were violated is not negated by quoting the rules.

We all know that there are powerful people who can bend and break the rules. Whether or not that actually happened here is certainly an open question, but saying the rules weren't broken because there are rules against breaking the rules is not a valid argument.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. I think the bigger question is why are they lying about boarding him without a passport

[Barack_America]

25. +1 nt

[clear eye]

36. IF that happened it would be to derail an investigation into why

a person carrying a passport with a name on the terrorist watch list was not stopped by the no-fly list. It would be a distraction from determining how the name was removed and by whom.

On edit: Or it would have been an after the fact effort to cover ineptitude by the DHS for not believing the father's info and putting him on the list, causing the absence of his name from the no-fly list. Were the Haskells convinced that it is their patriotic duty to help conceal lapses in airport security that are about to be corrected anyway?

BTW, if you're sitting on the floor behind the line on the side opposite from the chairs you can be very close to the counter, and you may have "pre-boarded" and not need to be in line. So that part of their story is not at all strange.

I still think the most plausible explanation is the simplest. They are telling the truth.

[snagglepuss]

69. He wasn't on the no fly list. There are different lists and the list he was on

didn't prevent him from flying. The issue is why his US visa wasn't rescinded once his father issued the warning.

[snagglepuss]

66. Why haven't either the Dutch and US govt denied this story ?

[jberryhill]

71. Glenn Beck, is that you? /nt

[snagglepuss]

73. Why avoid the question? There is absolutely no benefit to either govt for

this story to continue if its blatantly false. What is their rational not to stop it ASAP?

[jberryhill]

75. Ah, yes, and Obama has never denied being born in Kenya!

With all of the bullshit stories in the press and the internets, it is of critical importance for governments to chase every one.

The Dutch government, by the way, has already published its preliminary review of the incident.

[onenote]

19. question for the conspiracy theorists

If this was a "false flag" operation, why wouldn't steps have been taken to get the guy a false passport? A lot easier than having someone talk him onto the plane. And since if he had succeeded he and everyone else on the plane would have been dead, identifying who did what would have been impossible.

[snot]

40. Someone may have wanted an incident without necessarily wanting to kill 300 people.

[clear eye]

57. Fake passport would have had to involve more people. n/t

[jmowreader]

59. Eventually someone would have learned WHO procured the false passport

Pretend Dick Cheney's behind this--whether he is or not (he probably is not) makes no difference at this point, we're just using his name.

Dick calls Joe. Joe calls Sam. Sam gets Frank a fake passport for Abdul.

Eventually someone figures out Abdul has a fake passport. They start interrogating him until they find out Frank gave it to him.

Frank is then interrogated and reveals Sam, who reveals Joe, who has worked as Dick Cheney's driver for the last 10 years. All of a sudden Dick's hanging upside down over a 55-gallon drum of boiling coffee. Nasty shit, boiling coffee...and Dick remembers he's only 30 years older than Stella Liebeck was when she got her legs boiled off by coffee.

[lapislzi]

20. It's the same problem as with most conspiracy theories

The more people involved in a conspiracy, the harder it is to keep quiet. Bribe this one, bribe that one, so-and-so was in on it...sooner or later someone's going to blab, intentionally or not. If I were going to initiate a conspiracy, I'd follow the IRA model: 3-member cells, with one outside contact per cell. More than that is asking for blown cover.

[clear eye]

58. This alleged conspiracy could have been done w/ only 3 people--

The mastermind in DC or Langley, an embassy employee in Nigeria whose job it was to find the enthusiastic patsy, and the "sponsor" who got him on the plane. The so-called terrorist would not have actually been in on the plot.

[snagglepuss]

70. Totally nonsensical. The bomber was in on it because he prepared the

bomb for detonation, the reason it didn't explode is that he didn't prepare it properly. The reason that is suggested for his not properly preparing the explosive is he was sedated to make him appear less anxious but the sedation affected his ability to carry out the plan.

All facts indicate he was no patsy but a true believer so much so his father turned him in.

[clear eye]

82. I think it's possible he was both patsy and true believer.

Patsy in that the people giving him the explosive and guiding him onto the plane weren't actually a terrorist cell and set up the explosion to fail, and true believer b/c he wanted to blow up a plane. I think he was picked when it was determined by a conspirator in Nigeria that he was dim enough to be fooled.

These suspicions come from the fact that his name should have been on the no-fly list and apparently wasn't, and by the Haskells seeing him in the presence of what sounds like a "handler", which is not how terrorists generally operate.

[snagglepuss]

84. You've raised the best points I've seen so far for this being a setup.

This is not to say I buy the argument, for instance who knows that terrorists don't use handlers. If they haven't done so before who is to say they haven't started to do so now.

What I want to find out is what exactly happened to the file once his father reported his son to the US. I would also like to see the video of the handler. I imagine that he should be added to the Interpol's most wanted list.

[Turborama]

26. I've got questions for the conspiracy theorists, too

Why would they have been playing cards sitting on the floor within earshot of the check in counter? That would have been really close to the check in counter and, if the check in counter was open, they would have been queueing like everyone else.

When you get off a plane you have to go through immigration and check out before you can check in, even when you're in transit. How could he have gone through immigration without a passport?

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. I questioned the card playing too

But someone on another thread claimed they had actually been in that airport and saw tables and chairs next to the checkin counter where card playing goes on all the time.

[Turborama]

31. But they said in the CNN interview they were sitting on the floor

Even if they were sitting at tables, those tables would have to be really close to the check in counter for them to be able to overhear the conversation. Either that or the guy was talking really loudly and everyone else would have been able to hear it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. And I don't understand why anyone would sit down and play cards

whether on the floor or at a table - right after checking in for a flight. They didn't want to go to the gate? Go through security?

[clear eye]

63. The counter is in the waiting area by the gate.

People who have previously checked in have to sit and wait around there before the plane is ready to board. That's absolutely normal.

[clear eye]

61. See my comment #36 upthread. n/t

[Turborama]

67. Thanks, but it doesn't answer the question about how he got through Immigration, though. n/t

[clear eye]

85. See comments # 48 & 74 downthread.

A theory is emerging that does the best job of explaining how the contradictory-sounding claims can all be true. A poster said that the Nigerian may have had the Nigerian passport and VISA in his own name, but to avoid the possibility that his name may have been added to the no-fly list at the last minute, had gone the first leg of the trip from Sudan to the Netherlands claiming to be a passportless Sudanese refugee, and tried to continue that deception at the check-in counter. That would explain the argument at the counter overheard by the Haskells. The back-up plan was to show the passport in the manager's office, which he did, where it would be less likely to be routinely checked against the no-fly list. This would validate what the Dutch said about no one being allowed to fly w/o a passport.

That the Dutch won't release the security tape to reporters showing the Nigerian checking in alone strengthens the Haskells' story. I suspect Dutch officials feel the counter agent acted improperly in not calling security, and are concerned that the manager allowed the Nigerian to board w/o going to a computer containing the no-fly list. They understandably don't want apparent negligence to escalate into an int'l incident.

[CrunchMaster]

116. the answer to your question is that some think that SOMEONE is lying n/t

[Retrograde]

86. I wonder if they just confused check-in counter with gate counter

In all the airports I've been in there's a pre-security checkin area where you initially get your tickets and drop off your bags. Then, past security (and passport check in international terminals) there's a bunch of gates, each of which has a counter staffed before departure by people who handle things like seat change requests, or people coming in from another flight who may have missed a connection, or people flying stand-by, or answering basic questions. Passengers do tend to hang out near the latter: that would even be a reasonable place to play cards while waiting. I can see someone, especially someone who doesn't fly much, calling that a "check-in".

[clear eye]

93. It is where you confirm your presence to board the plane (check in) if you only have a carry-on bag.

When people say the Gate, I think about the actual entryway to the jetway leading to the plane where they stamp or take part of your ticket. So the terminology is ambiguous since if you got your ticket by mail or online and only have a carryon, you'd check in at that counter in the waiting area by the gate. And, yes, that's what it sounds like they were referring to.

[marshall]

41. Was the passport Nigerian? British? Sudanese? Yemeni?

Obviously he had a passport, but did he show it to get on the plane? And did he show an authentic passport?

[maddezmom]

44. Nigerian

Passport, U.S. Visa in Amsterdam, Contradicting Reports about Airport Accomplice
CBS/AP) The suspected terrorist who tried to blow up Northwest Flight 253 Christmas day did present a passport to authorities in Amsterdam before boarding the Detroit-bound plane, Holland's counter-terrorism agency said Wednesday.

Abdulmutallab arrived in Amsterdam on Friday from Lagos, Nigeria. After a layover of less than three hours, he passed through a security check at the gate in Amsterdam, including a hand baggage scan and a metal detector, officials said.

Abdulmutallab was carrying a valid Nigerian passport and had a valid U.S. visa, the Dutch said. His name did not appear on any Dutch list of terror suspects.

more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/30/world/main6037474.shtml

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. But our 'witness' is claiming he had no passport

:scared:

[maddezmom]

42. Haskell made another comment "I never stated he didn't have a passport,." more

¬snip¬

"I never stated he didn't have a passport," he told MLive.com this morning. "I stated he was trying to board without a passport, what transpired after that I don't know."

Haskell, also questioned why Dutch authorities haven't released the security footage that could clear up the matter.

"Show me the video," he said. "They have the video of what I'm talking about. Where is it? Why aren't they showing it?"



http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2009/12/dutch_counter-terrorism_agency.html

[Turborama]

45. Saying "he was trying to board without a passport" = saying he didn't have a passport

He contradicted himself.

[maddezmom]

47. I think he might be walking back from his comments

now that the officials involved have released more info.

[Turborama]

103. But he DID say that in the AC360 interview, I just double checked - here's the transcript

"And I could hear the entire conversation. The only person that spoke was the Indian man. And what he said was, this man needs to board the plane, but he doesn't have a passport. And the ticket agent responded, well, if he doesn't have a passport, he can't get on the plane, to which the Indian man responded back, he's from Sudan. We do this all the time.

And the ticket agent said, well, then, you will have to go and talk to my manager. And she directed them down a hallway. "

From: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/28/acd.01.html

BTW Haskell is an Alex Jones fan, he's just done an interview with him. Google "Flight 253 WITNESS Kurt Haskell & Alex Jones - No Passport, Bomber Had Inside Help!" to find it.

[marshall]

48. No, they aren't necessarily contradictory

Somebody doesn't have to be lying--we just may not have all the facts yet. But it is possible to actually have a passport but for some reason claim you don't and try to get on the plane without showing what you have.

I want to hear what happened at the airport security in Africa. Perhaps he claimed to be Sudanese there and didn't show a passport. Then when he got to Amsterdam he tried and failed to do the same scam.

[Turborama]

49. yes, it is possible..

...to actually have a passport but for some reason claim you don't and try to get on the plane without showing what you have.

But that's not what he said. He was saying he was trying to get on the pane without a passport, which equals saying he didn't have a passport. Let me put it like this. If someone said to me that they tried to get on a plane without their passport, my immediate thoughts would be that they didn't have their passport with them.

[marshall]

54. But they could also be lying

Assuming the man left Africa without showing a passport (if he claimed to be Sudanese and didn't want to show the Nigerian passport) it might have looked strange in Amsterdam to show a passport with no exit documentation.

[snagglepuss]

78. Maybe they wanted to test security, to see if it was possible for some

future bomber to do the same. What could have happened is that they produced the passport only when they were interviewed by the manager and claimed there was simply miscommunication.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. Which leads to the question:

If he HAD a passport, why was he trying to get on the plane without it?

It's stinking even more now.

[malaise]

56. You know in all the decades I've traveled I've

seen passports of persons directly in front of me in check in lines, adjacent to me with other airline clerks and more recently in the security lines at US airports. I'm trying to figure out how anyone not directly behind or adjacent to a passenger sees a passport being handed to an airline clerk or at the security check in line. Who the fugg is actually looking for that?

[clear eye]

74. Haskells said they overheard a small argument, not that they saw or didn't see anything

other than the two men. And the theory of trying to continue a scam in progress about being a Sudanese w/o documentation while in reality having Nigerian documents would account for all of that. If he had his druthers, the Nigerian (or his handler) would have rather not risked his name being on the no-fly list despite the measures taken to prevent that, but when given no choice in the manager's office would have reluctantly come through w/ his real passport.

That would make it that both the Haskells and the Dutch authorities were telling the truth up to a point. What the Dutch aren't explaining is why they won't show the video of the man at the check-in counter. This supports the Haskells' version. By showing the passport in the manager's office instead of at the counter, the likelihood of it going through the standard check against the no-fly list was reduced. After all the distraction--no passport/passport--the manager may have forgotten to make the check, and this is what the Dutch are trying not to reveal. Nobody likes to create an int'l incident due to apparent negligence.

More importantly, if reporters and bloggers keep trying to pin some kind of fraud on the Haskells, the next time witnesses of something fishy in an airport won't report it to the media, and it may be more important in apprehending a criminal than this incident was. The other people in earshot seem not to have wanted to "get involved". Is that how you want everyone to become?

[clear eye]

77. And BTW, the counter person should have called security rather than sent such a suspicious person

to the manager's office. This may also be an item of embarrassment to the Dutch.

[snagglepuss]

83. I also think they produced the passport to the manager however the

reason they would do so is unclear because he was not on the no-fly list. The fact that he wasn't on the no-fly list is the point of concern.

[Turborama]

97. "the theory of trying to continue a scam" fails at one (or two) very important point(s)

The one (or two) point(s) where the authorities would most likely have found whether he was on a no fly list or not is at the security/immigration desks, they are the most scrutinous checks of the the whole process. What you're suggesting with your conspiracy theory would more be more likely to occur before he got to the departure lounge, if this is where the Haskills are saying this happened.

Also, they did say they "saw" something happening, hence the description of the two men they gave. Oh, and by the way, he DID say he heard the "Indian man" say the 16 or 17 year old (Abdulmutallab's actually 23) didn't have a passport.

HILL: Well, joining us now, passengers Kurt and Lori Haskell, who told authorities about a remarkable scene they witnessed at the gate in Amsterdam. Also with us tonight is Richelle Keepman, who was on board that flight as well with her family, including her two newly adopted -- her newly adopted brother and sister from Ethiopia.

Good to have all of you with us.

Kurt, I want to start with you, because you say you witnessed at the suspect at the airport, and -- and you saw something that really made you sit up and take notice. Walk us through what you saw in Amsterdam.

KURT HASKELL, NORTHWEST AIRLINES FLIGHT 253 PASSENGER: Sure.

Lori and I were sitting near the boarding gate, sitting on the floor. There weren't any seats to sit in. And I saw two men, and they caught my eye because they seemed to be an odd pair. One was what I would describe as a poor-looking black teenager around 16 or 17, and the other man, a -- age 50-ish, wealthy-looking Indian man.

And I was just wondering why they were together, kind of strange. And I watched them approach what I would call the ticket agent, the final person that checks your boarding pass before you get on the plane. And I could hear the entire conversation. The only person that spoke was the Indian man. And what he said was, this man needs to board the plane, but he doesn't have a passport. And the ticket agent responded, well, if he doesn't have a passport, he can't get on the plane, to which the Indian man responded back, he's from Sudan. We do this all the time.

And the ticket agent said, well, then, you will have to go and talk to my manager. And she directed them down a hallway.

And that was the last time that I saw the Indian man. And the black man, I didn't see again until he tried to blow up our plane a few hours later.

HILL: And then -- and when did you put two and two together and realize that this in fact appeared to be the same man you saw, who may not have had a passport?

K. HASKELL: I got a good look at him on the plane when we landed and the FBI was arresting him. And that's when I put it all together. I recognized him as the same man that I had seen before we boarded.

HILL: And I know everyone has been questioned who was on that flight.

Lori, it's tough to understand, I think, especially for a lot of people watching this, and I'm sure for you who were sitting there, how anybody could be allowed on board an international flight without a passport. When you and your husband talked to authorities, when you told them what you saw, what was the reaction?

LORI HASKELL, NORTHWEST AIRLINES FLIGHT 253 PASSENGER: They seemed really interested in what we had to say. They talked to every family.

A lot of the families was -- they were talking to them for about five minutes or so. They talked to Kurt and I for probably about 15 minutes, maybe a little bit more. At one point, they called over another FBI agent to, I guess, witness what the other one was talking to us about.

So, I think that they were really interested in what we had to say about what we saw in the Amsterdam airport. However, the FBI and no other authorities have contacted us since then.

HILL: And does that seem odd to you, or did you figure that's just part of the investigation?

L. HASKELL: You know, I don't know. It does seem a little bit odd. If my husband is the only one that noticed this happening, I would think that we would have been contacted for further questioning, especially now, with all of the media that's been contacting us.

From: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0912/28/acd.01.html

the next time witnesses of something fishy in an airport won't report it to the media

As long as they report it to the authorities and an attack is actually stopped because of their report, I can live with them not reporting it to the media.

The other people in earshot seem not to have wanted to "get involved".

Or, the other people in earshot didn't hear or see anything of the sort. In fact, that's another odd thing about this, if there were so many people that they had to sit on the floor there is a high likelihood (almost a certainty) that this commotion would have been witnessed and heard by a lot more people.

I'm sorry but the tangled tale your weaving is getting more and more convoluted and replete with "what ifs" that don't add up.

[Pavulon]

101. Please dont cram a perjury charge up may ass..

I was just saying shit to get attention, not for real. Lets just ignore what i said earlier. They have a video of a moron in his balloon boy glory.

[Motown_Johnny]

43. So why doesn't the White House crush this story?

[Echo In Light]

51. Thanks for posting

[JCMach1]

62. He could easily have meant not handing the passport to the ticket taker at the gate

so countries ask you to, some not... it's damn confusing at times. There have been time I haven't offered them my passport, just my boarding passes. Depending on the security procedure at that particular airport you may/or may not need it.

[DefenseLawyer]

64. I don't know if the story is true or not

but nothing in the explanation proves that it is false. The explanation basically says "It couldn't have happened because that is against the rules and nobody breaks the rules". That's not proof of anything. Rules are broken all the time; that's why we have rules to begin with.

[smirkymonkey]

76. So when are we going to bomb the Netherlands?

[clear eye]

91. Good one. LOL. n/t

[mstinamotorcity]

79. My thoughts exactly

I read a lot of bogus facts about this issue.And since the Obama spin is on i have heard more lies than a little.When i say Obama Spin i mean that every republicon will try and spin this into Obama's fault. So reporting the facts is a good thing keep up the truth quest.

[lib2DaBone]

99. Correct. The underwear bomber HAD a passport....

No problem. But how did he get past security with underwear full of explosives?

And why would these two people, (who I understand are attorneys) why would they make up a story about a man in a suit assisting the jock-strap bomber? What would they have to gain?

[Pavulon]

102. Why would a guy claim his kid was in a balloon?

because they are assholes. Fame seeking, ball chaffing annoying assholes fucking up the truth for those of us who exist in the real world. Love to see these assholes get disbarred for perjury.

[CrunchMaster]

115. Maybe they are spreading disinformation or maybe they are confused

Or maybe they are right and the Dutch are lying. Hard to tell who is telling the truth. So many games being played these days. We get ourselves into so many jams assuming that someone wouldn't lie to us. Best to keep an open mind while more info comes in

[Bozita]

107. We've seen pics of his undies. How about pics of his passport which document his travels?

After all, he had it on his person.

Right?

[cbdo2007]

113. While all you are saying might be true....the Haskell's may be telling the truth as well.

You are correct that in a perfect world where everyone followed the correct procedures, he wouldn't have been allowed to board the plane the way the Haskells say he did.....

but, I can definitely believe something "under the table" happened here to get this guy on the airplane. Notice how they are really stepping up the security in Amsterdam after this to cover their asses.

[leveymg]

117. The Haskells never claimed he didn't actually have a PP, just that the 2nd man said that -

the rest of your post tells us nothing relevant. What is potentially significant is that the Haskells identified the bomber as the man who was taken out of line by a well-dressed man who talked the ticketing agent into bypassing the normal procedure of presenting a passport at the counter, and the two walked back to see a manager in a back room. There's no dispute that the bomber was subsequently ticketed and allowed to board, where an incendiary of some kind on his person was set off.

The following facts are also undisputed. A seemingly credible couple reported the events, above. Here's the video of their interview on CNN 360:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAtK7FFDukQ

These certainly seem to be sober and credible eyewitnesses.

If what these people are saying is true, this is very strange, indeed. Put the pieces together -- 1) the statement that the bomber had no passport (but the official accounts say he had a US visa, which implies he actually had a PP or refugee travel document), 2) the witnesses report he was given special handling to board the flight, 3) he wasn't searched, 4) the other passengers were allowed on with water bottles and without having their shoes X-rayed, 5) the bomber was named on a UK watch list that is shared with the US, 6) the US was warned weeks ago about this guy's ties to al-Qaeda (CIA has had some knowledge of him as long ago as August.)

Care to dispute this?