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Welcome to Orwell's World 2010: Barack Obama is the leader of a contemporary Oceania.

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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:33 PM
Original message
Welcome to Orwell's World 2010: Barack Obama is the leader of a contemporary Oceania.
At least the chocolate ration is going to be increased.

http://www.zmag.org/zspace/commentaries/4093

By Pilger, John
John Pilger's ZSpace Page
Join ZSpace

In Nineteen Eighty-Four, George Orwell described a superstate called Oceania, whose language of war inverted lies that "passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past', ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past'."

Barack Obama is the leader of a contemporary Oceania. In two speeches at the close of the decade, the Nobel Peace Prize winner affirmed that peace was no longer peace, but rather a permanent war that "extends well beyond Afghanistan and Pakistan" to "disorderly regions and diffuse enemies". He called this "global security" and invited our gratitude. To the people of Afghanistan, which America has invaded and occupied, he said wittily: "We have no interest in occupying your country."

In Oceania, truth and lies are indivisible. According to Obama, the American attack on Afghanistan in 2001 was authorised by the United Nations Security Council. There was no UN authority. He said the "the world" supported the invasion in the wake of 9/11 when, in truth, all but three of 37 countries surveyed by Gallup expressed overwhelming opposition. He said that America invaded Afghanistan "only after the Taliban refused to turn over bin Laden". In 2001, the Taliban tried three times to hand over bin Laden for trial, reported Pakistan's military regime, and were ignored. Even Obama's mystification of 9/11 as justification for his war is false. More than two months before the Twin Towers were attacked, the Pakistani foreign minister, Niaz Naik, was told by the Bush administration that an American military assault would take place by mid-October. The Taliban regime in Kabul, which the Clinton administration had secretly supported, was no longer regarded as "stable" enough to ensure America's control over oil and gas pipelines to the Caspian Sea. It had to go.

Obama's most audacious lie is that Afghanistan today is a "safe haven" for al-Qaeda's attacks on the West. His own national security adviser, General James Jones, said in October that there were "fewer than 100" al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. According to US intelligence, 90 per cent of the Taliban are hardly Taliban at all, but "a tribal localised insurgency see themselves as opposing the US because it is an occupying power". The war is a fraud. Only the terminally gormless remain true to the Obama brand of "world peace".

Beneath the surface, however, there is serious purpose. Under the disturbing General Stanley McCrystal, who gained distinction for his assassination squads in Iraq, the occupation of one of the most impoverished countries is a model for those "disorderly regions" of the world still beyond Oceania's reach. This is a known as COIN, or counter-insurgency network, which draws together the military, aid organisations, psychologists, anthropologists, the media and public relations hirelings. Covered in jargon about winning hearts and minds, its aim is to pit one ethnic group against another and incite civil war: Tajiks and Uzbecks against Pashtuns.

The Americans did this in Iraq and destroyed a multi-ethnic society. They bribed and built walls between communities who had once inter-married, ethnically cleansing the Sunni and driving millions out of the country. The embedded media reported this as "peace", and American academics bought by Washington and "security experts" briefed by the Pentagon appeared on the BBC to spread the good news. As in Nineteen Eighty-Four, the opposite was true.

more...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. And Obama LIHOP too
:crazy:
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Why do you say that?
nt
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. Oh, Christ, not another goddamn acronym. WHAT, now?
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 03:30 PM by salguine
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. He's responsible for lingonberry syrup at the International House of Pancakes.
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #45
61. and I for one thank him for it.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
71. Let It Happen On Purpose
As in Bush let 9/11 happen on purpose, and the OP posted elsewhere some Obama conspiracy theory about letting the Detroit terrorist on the plane. There's also MIHOP, made it happen on purpose, which were both very popular around here for the longest time.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. So does it really shave that much time off somebody's typing time to just
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 07:52 PM by salguine
go ahead and write the stupid phrase? Maybe I love the English language and prize clarity too much, I don't know, but I've really kind of bottomed out on acronym fatigue. LOL. ROFL. IMO. IMHO. POTUS. FLOTUS. SCOTUS. Jesus goddamn tapdancing Christ, I think I'm gonna scream.

Sorry. I had to let that out.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. We're still in the end game. n/t
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. Double-plus way stupid post
:thumbsdown:
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Psstttt...yer chocolate ration is in the mail.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. Same author called Obama "a glossy Uncle Tom."
Do you agree with that too?
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. What did he mean when he wrote it?
nt
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. "I hate n******."
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Link?
nt
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. It's on his wiki page.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. That he hates "n******"? I doubt it.
nt
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
42. You asked me what he really meant.
That's what it really meant.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. "A glossy Uncle Tom who would bomb Pakistan."
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 02:44 PM by Moochy
The slightly longer quote, not that it makes it any less offensive or racist that he used that term in an anti-war stance. Unfortunately his racist language unveils a patronizing and stereotypically simplistic view of American society and Race.

That being said, your 'gloss' of his quote is characteristically innacurate, and intentionally misleading as is your way. see post #10.
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
39. That is just total bullshit.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Yeah, it's terrible.
It's a shame people are so engorged with anti-Obama kool-aid that they'd post shit from racist loons like Pilger.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. I think he was referencing your misquote.
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 04:10 PM by Moochy
misquote/gloss etc. I just don't think that mischaracterizing what he said serves the discussion.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. It's a paraphrase, not a quote.
Somebody asked me what he meant by his racism, I explained it.

John Pilger doesn't like black people.

"I think he was referencing your misquote."

Well, I considered that. But I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't a racism apologist like some of the others.



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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. sorry for the mid-edits
We agree that its a racist statement, but I think one the intent is not as clear as you are making it out to be.

It seems more like a dated, colonial, paternalistic and simplified view of race relations.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Racism isn't that complicated.
It all boils down to "I hate n******."
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Oversimplified... but OK
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 04:24 PM by Moochy
Do you know the story of the term "Uncle Tom" ?

It's an interesting history about a co-opting / commodification of black culture, and it is more complicated than just saying anyone who uses the term really mean that they "hate n******".

I read about it on wikipedia based on your prompting, so thanks for that. :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #56
83. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. The person who introduced race into discussions of Pilger was Pilger himself
Edited on Fri Jan-01-10 05:03 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
When he thought he was justified in using the term "Uncle Tom".

The excuses come flying in:

"Oh, he's not racist, he does such and such"
"Uncle Tom isn't a racist term!"
"We're past that!"

But come on...nobody really believes those excuses. Someone that would throw that term around has a serious lack of understanding of race relations in the United States to say the very very least.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #85
87. I think it's a term that was far more acceptable when Pilger was younger.
Edited on Fri Jan-01-10 11:38 AM by Karmadillo
I don't think it's a term that has much use today. It's easy enough to describe a white or black person who serves the power structure without using a term that allows one's opponents to try to avoid the substance of one's remarks by crying racist. It seems clear to me that there's absolutely nothing in Pilger's background that suggests he's a racist. If there was something other than the Uncle Tom remark, I imagine it would be posted by now. It's interesting that instead of taking apart his post and defending Obama, a fair number of people here choose to smear Pilger as a racist instead. It's the kind of laziness that has degraded discussion at DU over the years. One sees the same thing with Chomsky's criticism of Israel--he's an anti-semite!
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
47. I do
and so do many other people I know
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. I bet they do.
I bet they do.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Normally, a bet is a wager with two opposing sides
but since we seem to be in agreement, I don't think I can accept this bet
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #47
78. Yeah? How many is "many"?
Edited on Fri Jan-01-10 04:03 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. Poor old John, reduced to ZMag, musing about 1984
writing like Christopher Hitchens in reverse. He lost it when East Timor ceased to be his forever war.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. We should all be so reduced. "John Pilger wins 2009 Sydney Peace Prize"
Unlike at least one recent recipient of a peace prize, Pilger actually deserved his.

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=555

John Pilger has been awarded the 2009 Sydney Peace Prize.

The jury’s citation reads as follows: 'For work as an author, film-maker and journalist as well as for courage as a foreign and war correspondent in enabling the voices of the powerless to be heard. For commitment to peace with justice by exposing and holding governments to account for human rights abuses and for fearless challenges to censorship in any form.'

Sydney Peace Foundation Director Professor Stuart Rees said: "The jury was impressed by John’s courage as well as by his skills and creativity. His commitment to uncovering human rights abuses shines through his numerous books, films and articles. His work inspires all those who value peace with justice."

John Pilger responded: "Coming from my homeland and the city where I was born and grew up, this is an honour I shall cherish, with the hope that it encourages young Australian journalists, writers and film-makers to break the silences that perpetuate injustice both faraway and close to home."

The Foundation has cited various examples of John Pilger's work - 2004 film 'Stealing A Nation', the story of the British and American governments’ secret ‘mass kidnappings’ of a whole population of the Chagos Islands in the Indian ocean to make way for an American military base; his 1979 film 'Year Zero: the Silent Death of Cambodia', which depicted the horrors of the Pol Pot regime and the plight of the Khmer people; 1994's 'Death of a Nation', shot under cover in East Timor, which galvanized world wide support for the East Timorese people; and his re-making of the film 'Palestine is Still the Issue', which reminds the world of a continuing occupation and cruel injustice.

Other distinguished recipients of Australia’s only international prize for peace have included previous Nobel recipients Professor Muhammad Yunus and Archbishop Desmond Tutu, former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Mary Robinson, Indian author and human rights campaigner Arundhati Roy and, last year, the Aboriginal leader and ‘father of reconciliation’ Patrick Dodson.

more...
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. East Timor. His work and advocacy was invaluable and highly influential in Australia.
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 01:56 PM by denem
A lifetime achievement award doesn't validate this nonsense.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. What part of his post is nonsense?
nt
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. The whole analogy.
1984 was not even about imperialism. Three superstates co-operating in a phony forever war, where the whole point was to maintain an external balance of power in order to cement absolute internal totalitarian power.

This ZMag 'contribution' is sheer laziness.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Isn't his post focusing on how the lies of power become truth? He's focusing on Obama's lies
in support of a policy of imperialism, not imperialism itself.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. He should start with his own lies: "In 2001, the Taliban tried three times to hand over bin Laden"
Bin Laden was related to Mullah Omar by arranged marriage, a most profound bond in Sunni Islam. Talking about the Taliban handing over Bin Laden to the infidels is pure fantasy land.

As I said, he's lost it.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. He's referring to an assertion by Pakistan's military regime. Are you saying the regime
didn't make the assertion? If so, do you have a link to support the claim the assertion wasn't made and that Pilger is lying?
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. It's a bald statement of his own
If he was basing it on assertions by the ISI, it's incredible.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. If you read the post, you'll see it's not a bald statement of his own.
If you're saying the claim by the military regime is incredible and not to be believed, do you have a link to support your assertion?
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. The ISI as a reliable source about the Taliban? You have to be kidding.
Mullah Omar is going to hand over Family? I mean THIS is Orwellian double-think.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I didn't think you had a link to show Pilger was a liar. The Guardian also reported
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 03:18 PM by Karmadillo
the story.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/17/afghanistan.terrorism11

New offer on Bin Laden
Minister makes secret trip to offer trial in third country


Rory McCarthy in Islamabad The Guardian, Wednesday 17 October 2001 03.22 BST

A senior Taliban minister has offered a last-minute deal to hand over Osama bin Laden during a secret visit to Islamabad, senior sources in Pakistan told the Guardian last night.

For the first time, the Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden for trial in a country other than the US without asking to see evidence first in return for a halt to the bombing, a source close to Pakistan's military leadership said.

But US officials appear to have dismissed the proposal and are instead hoping to engineer a split within the Taliban leadership.

The offer was brought by Mullah Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil, the Taliban foreign minister and a man who is often regarded as a more moderate figure in the regime.

He met officials from the CIA and Pakistan's ISI intelligence directorate in Islamabad on Monday. US officials pressed the minister for a sweeping change in the regime. "They are trying to persuade him to get the moderate elements together," another source said.

Mr Muttawakil's visit coincided with the arrival in Islamabad of Colin Powell, the US secretary of state. After several hours of talks with Pakistan's military ruler General Pervez Musharraf yesterday, Mr Powell admitted that moderate Taliban would play a role in talks on a future Afghan government. "We would have to listen to them or at least take them into account," he said.

more...
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. 1. In 2001 The ISI, as the principal backers of the Taliban are completely unreliable sources.
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 03:43 PM by denem
2. And as the Foreign Minister said:

We abide by the Amir's view even if he alone takes this view ... Mullah Omar will be the highest authority and the government will not be able to implement any decision to which he does not agree.

Mullah Omar never made a statement about 9/11 or Bid Laden. At best his Foreign Minister, disowned by the Taliban in 2003, was stalling for time. Only one man could offer to hand over Bin Laden. He would never have had any intention of handing over his blood brother. Get real. C'Mon.



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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #44
69. "The ISI, as the principal backers of the Taliban are completely unreliable sources."
But then again so is the government of the United States of America.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #69
77. ISI, CIA, MI6, NKVD are NOT reliable. Period. By definition.
Edited on Fri Jan-01-10 03:55 AM by denem
To rely on ISI statements is a reasonable as touting CIA declarations about Columbia.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #77
88. You still haven't demonstrated that Pilger & the Guardian are liars. You
disagree with the sources they use, although they would seem to be in a better position to assess the worth of those sources than you. We are stuck in a world where everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt, whether it's statements from the military regime in Pakistan or the imperialist regime in the United States. It's interesting how excited some people get in trying to ferret out imperfections in Pilger in order to dismiss what he writes, but they never get around to defending Obama's statements. Could it be because what Pilger wrote about Obama and Bush is accurate?
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. What's with the 'chocolate ration' comment?
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Haven't read the book? Double Plus Un-Good
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. It's from the book/film.
Without looking up the detail, the fully indoctrinated dupe that ends up murdered for no good reason by the system he believes in, was always disseminates the PR about things getting better, i.e., "I heard they are going to increase the chocolate ration".


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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm starting to think we need to extend Godwin's Law to encompass 1984 analogies. n/t
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. We're rapidly approaching that moment.
:argh:
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Thought Crime! Thought Crime!
Yeah, you're probably right about that.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. I'm beginning to think the same thing. nt
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appal_jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
37. Yeah, sure...
Yeah, sure, I'll support that notion, when (and only when) reality ceases to resemble the plot of 1984.

Reality, however, is not cooperating.

-app
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
65. The thing is that Orwell was spot on in his observations of how politicians talk
But just because politicians talk like they do in that book, doesn't mean we are living in George Orwell's vision of a totalitarian world.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Well, that is my whole problem with 1984 analogies.
By and large they are intellectually lazy, and it seems like half of the analogies made aren't even supported by the material in the book. That's certainly the case with this one.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Pretty much
People make the leap in logic that because politicians are speaking in a manner similar to what he referred to as "newspeak" that his big 1984 prophecy must be coming true. But the fact of the matter is that there's nothing prophetic about it, politicians were talking like that in the 1940's when Orwell wrote the book. "War is peace" isn't anything new.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #65
82. It's not the only similarity, & the reason politicians talk like that is because of the structure
of the world they live in. Which is, yes, pretty totalitarian. Though it's less obvious to the more privileged classes.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
16. What fresh hell is this? Is your tinfoil chapeau too tight?
:wtf:
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
21. Pilger: "Barack Obama is a glossy Uncle Tom" "Hillary Clinton ... is anti-feminist"
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 02:08 PM by denem
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. How disgusting does the source have to be before a disgruntled DUer decides it's toxic?
Or at what point does a merely disgruntled DUer turn into that which s/he claims to despise?

Hekate
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #24
79. Entitlement. Some people think that they've just been so kind to us minorities they have the RIGHT
Edited on Fri Jan-01-10 03:51 AM by SemiCharmedQuark
to say whatever slurs they want and not be called racist. This guy just reeks of that condescending attitude.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
27. Thanks for posting this.
K&R
:patriot:

I share the same assessment of the expanding WARS as Pilger.

One of the biggest frauds committed by the Bush/Obama administrations is convincing America that "The Taliban" is a monolithic organization with an organized "Chain of Command".

War is Peace
Black is White.
I did not campaign on a Public Option.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Eric's Law "The first to raise 1984 in an argument, loses"
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 02:43 PM by denem
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. I've always used bvar22's Law.
The first to use a non-sequitur, Strawman, Red Herring, False Dichotomy, Appeal to Authority, Ad hominem, or other logical fallacies loses.

Works pretty good.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. I would add just 'plain fallacies'.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #46
63. As long as someone supports their position with...
..valid counter arguments and credible sources, I'll agree.

If you disagree with the OP, why don't you tell us why.
Try to be specific, and present a logical counter argument with sources.
I'll listen.
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NoUsername Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #63
74. Crickets... n/t
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #63
75. bvar, I was very specific #26.
Edited on Fri Jan-01-10 03:45 AM by denem
In context, the Oceania analogy, one of three superstates conducting a phony war, is bunkum. Orwell's world? Tripe. Winston Smith knows nothing of the world outside AirStrip One.

1984 was not an analysis of Imperialism, nor even lies about Imperialism. It's an expose of the mechanics of ultimate INTERNAL totalitarianism. If someone is looking for Orwell's world in 2010, North Korea would not be a bad starting point.

Invoking Orwell, like the Third Reich, is routine intellectual laziness. In this case, it's also mendacious.

OK. Will you reply?
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #75
84. Mendacious Much?
Talk about intellectual laziness, your screeds are pathetic, and quite lazy.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. OK. Refute something. Anything in it.
Edited on Fri Jan-01-10 05:24 AM by denem
Who's lazy? Pathetic even?
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #75
89. Yes.
What you have done is taken a single element of Orwell's novel and argued that our situation is not EXACTLY the same. From THAT, you generalize a conclusion that absolutely NO comparison to Orwell's fictional world are valid.

While you are correct that our situation in not exactly the same as the character in Orwell's novel, your conclusion that NO comparisons are valid simply does not follow. (Conclusion does not Follow)

"Orwell published his novel in 1949, therefore nothing in it can possibly apply to the 21st Century." is as valid as your argument.

There are certainly valid points of comparison:

*When was the first time you heard the term "enemy combatant", or "Patriot Act", or "Clean Air Initiative"?

*How about the TIA Program (Total Information Awareness)?

*Surely you have noticed the explosion of surveillance TV cameras remotely operated by elements of our government?

*Have you been through any random "checkpoints" established on our highways?

*How many citizens have a government/corporate propaganda distribution device operating 24/7 in their homes?

*Did you know that the Police engaged in Preemptive Arrests of individuals who might cause disturbances in St Paul before the Republican Convention?

*Rewriting History:
"The Republicans kept us safe for 8 years."
"There were NO terrorists attacks after 9-11."
"Obama did not campaign on a Public Option."

I could keep going, but you should be able get the point by now.

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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. I don't think he meant for you to reply that effectively.
nt
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
43. And what about the birth certificate!!!!!
DU is getting pretty stupid lately.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. OMG - You've solved the conundrum!
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 03:52 PM by denem
Obama is related to Mullah Omar by birth! His grandfather's surname was Obomar, but anglicized to Obama.
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BluDemocratGirl Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
60. Been there, done that! Obama was born in the STATE of HAWAII!
His father and mother were BOTH students at the University of Hawaii when Obama was born. Get it right! Free Public, down the street. Go join them!
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
48. Good Read. Thanks. and, BTW, Don't Feed the Trolls.
:hi:
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #48
59. Sorry problem fixed
rackin frackin trolls.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
52. Bush was a billion times more Orwellian
To not even mention that is reckless.
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
62. Welcome to King's World 2010: Barack Obama is the host of a game show called Running Man.

At least Whitman, Price and Haddad are living it up on a beach somewhere.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
64. Trying to hang this on Obama is pathetic. Using Orwell to do it is Orwellian. UnRec ++ UnGood
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
68. But will the chocolate still crumble?
K&R
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That Is Quite Enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
70. Not exactly.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
73. Wow. Damning -- some of those lies and justifications sound EXACTLY like what b*s* said.
NT!

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
76. Y.A.F.O.R
Yet another fucking orwell reference.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #76
80. Ah so, YAFOR -- an acronym that will join IOKYAR in the DU lexicon.
Happy new year, Cliffordu.

Hekate

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. You too, my friend.
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