How evil does someone have to be before it's okay to want him to die?

[DavidDvorkin]

Take everyone's favorite example of evil, Adolf Hitler. If DU had existed back then, and if a European DUer had posted a wish for Hitler's death, would he have been condemned for that post? Surely not.

Nowadays, if some vile icon of the right is ill or dying and a DUer posts wishes that the vile icon die, many other DUers condemn that post. We're not supposed to sink to their level, we're told.

(Of course this was inspired by the Limbaugh story, but it's a more general issue.)

So where's the line? Is it okay to wish for Kim Jong Il's death, or to cheer reports that he's dead? If so, then the line is somewhere between him and Limbaugh, but where?

[emilyg]

1. Hitler evil.

[tularetom]

2. For me, I think I just found out today

[Pisces]

39. Be careful what you put out, it could come back at you. Rush is a gasbag, who has

morans that listen to him. Some other gasbag will take his place. Wishing him ill doesn't fix the problem of all those morans. Are you going to wish them all dead?

[liberal N proud]

3. One should never wish for another to die

In the Limbaugh case we should only wish that his condition required that he retire from his filth filled vile spewing talk shows.

[NJmaverick]

4. I think we can draw the line at mass murders

Even then there needs to be a clear cut intent and direct actions to those murders

[enlightenment]

5. No comparison between Hitler, who had the authority and the

will to actually accomplish 'evil' - and the 'vile icon of the right' who, for all his venom, is a talking head. Period.

IMO, the line is clearly drawn between those that talk and those that do (although, for myself, I think it's juvenile to wish death on anyone, regardless of their actions, or to cheer someone's death. There are times when the old saw of 'if you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing at all' is worth remembering).

[Forkboy]

6. I asked pretty much the same question earlier.

I fully believe there is no karma. Look at the evil bastards in this world that have lived to ripe old ages while innocent kids get bombed and maimed or die of cancer...what did they do to deserve their karma? So where is the line? Should I just wish for something mildly bad, like a piece of spinach being lodged in their teeth, just to be safe? It's all nonsense, and there's no unseen entity that's keeping track of the things I say, be they good or bad. If there was I'd be dead by now, and so would a Hell of a lot of the rest of us.

[virgogal]

14. It's a crapshoot---that's all it is.

[Forkboy]

21. Pretty much.

I know that's not what people want to hear, but I see no evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Bluebear]

37. Every time some evil cretin gets sick the DU swamis come out of the woodwork

to tsk tsk everyone. Personally I don't care "what DU looks like" and I doubt that Limbaugh's family is spending their hour of anguish perusing DU, so they are unlikely to see any bad sentiments and get their feelings hurt.

[DavidDvorkin]

46. I guess you could compromise by wishing for non-fatal chest pains

that never go away and keep getting steadily, slowly worse and can't be helped by any medication.

But that would be wrong. Apparently.

[Mojambo]

7. It's not about how evil they are. It's about how good I want to try and be. n/t

[Kaleva]

8. Idon't wish death on anyone. The most vile can get life without chance of parole.

[MiniMe]

9. I'll just wish that he loses his voice, or sounds like Donald Duck...

permanently

[treestar]

44. LOL

Sounding like Donald Duck permanently would be worse than death to him. I can go for that! :rofl:

[SoCalDem]

10. Everybody dies.. we're just commenting on the timetable

:evilgrin:

[chollybocker]

23. lol

:thumbsup:

[niyad]

50. absolutely ADORE that pic!!

[wtmusic]

11. My line is justice vs. revenge

and you gotta be brutally honest with yourself, take emotion out of the equation.

Is the person guilty of a crime? Then he/she should be punished appropriately.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. That's not at all a moral equivalency. Hitler had the actual power to implement his evil

Limbaugh does not. Neither, in fact, does cheenee.

My wish for each of them is exactly what they would wish for me.

[mwb970]

18. Limbaugh's worshippers will do his dirty work for him.

I sometimes hear that Limbaugh and Beck, etc. are "speaking on behalf of the people" who believe as they do. I think it's the other way around. Limbaugh says some crazy thing, and it turns up on signs at the next Teabagger Non-Event. Basically, his followers "speak on behalf of him".

Limbaugh's evil (and Beck's, and all of them) is "implemented" whenever some right-wing nut job shoots a cop, or opens fire in a liberal church. Any chance to silence a divisive, hateful voice such as his should be welcomed.

[pocoloco]

35. If Dante was correct, those who incite violence will end up in

a lower level of Hell than those who actually do the violence.

[bemildred]

13. You can want anybody to die, the question is what you do about it.

If you don't do anything about it, you are in the clear. If you do, then there are moral questions.

[noamnety]

15. I'm not a death penalty/vengeance kind of person

There are people I'm glad to see removed from power, or removed from a position where they can continue to hurt people.
And there are people whose deaths I don't feel any emotional sadness over.

I can understand a personal/private feeling of relief when someone's gone.

I can't get behind the public joy/public expressions of hope over it. When I see that, it reminds me of that photo from 1930, two black men - who had allegedly raped a white girl - being lynched, and the town turning out to watch, women in summer dresses, men in hats and ties, smiling like they are at a garden party.

The smiling people knew they had rid their town of a great evil threat. Nobody there was condemning them for celebrating under the hanging bodies of those two men. They were self-assured in their content.

Maybe the two men in the photo were rapists. Maybe they weren't. Their crime isn't the evil that's captured in that photo.

[G_j]

16. I guess maybe I'm a Buddhist

whatever, I just don't think it's my affair. I'll let Karma take it's course.

[Ozymanithrax]

17. First, you must define evil so that we all can agree on a definition...

Hitler's war led to the death of more than 20 million people. There is no one living today in the U.S. that quite reaches that level.

Limbaugh is a demagogue, but so far as I know he has killed no one. Does the fact that he is Conservative make him evil? If so, what is it about Conservatism that is evil?

Farting in an elevator is considered by some evil. I mean, you are making them smell your shit and enjoying the process. But should a person who would do that be killed?

Yes, we need a definition.

[stray cat]

19. at least at the level of a murderer - many even defend murderers like Bin Laden

[elocs]

20. How does the wanting someone to die work out? Does it make them die sooner?

Obviously everyone is going to die sooner or later. Does it make the one who wants or wishes for the death to feel better about themselves and life?

So, if they hope for ours to die and then we hope for theirs to die, exactly how does it make us different from them in this respect?

[PDJane]

22. I follow the wiccan tradition.........what you wish comes back

threefold. Ill wishing is a bad, bad, thing.

Even wishing them what they deserve is iffy sometimes.

[niyad]

53. wishing them everything they deserve isn't iffy. it always amuses me when I use that phrase to

someone, the different reactions I get. those with clear conscience say, "thank you, that is so kind", or similar. I can always tell the ones with guilty conscience or something, because the response is, "why would you say something so mean?"

I don't know what they deserve. while I may think a person deserves to spend the rest of what should be a short, miserable, pain-filled life, the universe may think that person deserves to win powerball. I leave it at that.

[DavidDvorkin]

24. Interesting discussion so far. Thanks.

I'm an atheist and don't believe in karma - either the kind that affects the evildoer or the kind that somehow rebounds on the ill wisher - so that doesn't factor into the debate for me. Nor do I imagine that my wishing ill for someone will cause ill to happen to him, so that's not a factor, either.

I see that some people distinguish between those with the power to actually do evil, such as Hitler, and those who only talk evil, such as Limbaugh. That's certainly one way to look at it, even putting aside the question of whether Limbaugh inspires his listeners to do evil. (Hitler didn't kill all those millions of people with his own hands!) Anyway, I was thinking of some sort of scale of evil, not about actual power or authority over armies.

Interesting posts, and I hope there'll be more. My rare OPs in GD seem to age into non-existence pretty quickly.

[sendero]

45. Without..

... Geobbels, Hitler would have gotten nowhere. Spare me the distinction between talk and action (not you, others on the thread).

[PDJane]

47. The problem with someone like Rush

is that he doesn't have to have the power of the state. His general hatred and loathing can inspire others to do his work for him...and he doesn't need the power of the state when he manages to incite so many idiots.

The man is almost as sick and scary as Glenn Beck.
Or O'Reilly.

[JVS]

25. There are other factors at play, such as whether the person is in front of me in the grocery line...

or traffic.

[MineralMan]

26. Everyone dies in his or her own time. Wishing for someone's death

is futile, in the first place, and diminishes the person wishing for that. It's a negative exercise that doesn't harm the person you're wishing death upon, but does harm you.

I recommend against such wishes.

[DavidDvorkin]

31. How does it harm you?

[Arctic Dave]

27. I've set a low bar, anyone from Hitler to the dude who can't get my latte right.

:evilgrin:

[Cleita]

28. Having been alive when Hitler was alive, I know for a fact Americans wanted him

dead. This is why we invaded Normandy and marched across Europe to make sure he died. There was no ambiguity in feelings there. We also wanted Stalin and Mao dead in subsequent decades. Americans have also been wanting Castro dead and Osama bin Laden as well and have been unapologetic about it. I find with Limbaugh though what I want is for him to shut up, not die. If whatever happened to him gets him off the air, maybe because his speech is garbled or the stress is too much for his weakened physical state, I'm good with it. Wishing Kim Jong Il dead is futile because his heir will step right in. Better to wish that the whole regime dies or that there is a coup that will topple it.

[DavidDvorkin]

32. You're really talking about wishing

to end the evil itself, rather than end the person. That's rational, but I was thinking of the visceral reaction to the evil person.

[Raine]

29. If you want to wish it, then wish it

in the end it doesn't matter because wishing doesn't make it so. Whatever happens happens regardless of whether you want it or not. :shrug:

[DavidDvorkin]

34. Of course, but

I was talking about the visceral reaction.

[Raine]

43. It's always best for one's own sake

to simply wish that he gets what he deserves in the end.

[Kaleva]

30. How evil does one have to be before they wish death on others?

[DavidDvorkin]

33. Is it always evil to wish death on someone else

no matter what the circumstances are?

If a murderer is heading toward you, having stated his intention to kill you, is it evil to wish that he would drop dead? That's an extreme case, but isn't it one where such a wish is not evil?

[Kaleva]

38. My wish would be that he'd change his mind and go in the opposite direction.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

36. If his verbal diarrhea causes people to shoot other people for

no good reason, causes other violent acts to be committed by still others.... then one should at least wish for him to develop a permanent case of laryngitis.

[UTUSN]

40. Soon?!1 n./t

[varelse]

41. Wish away

No one can tell another person what to wish for, or how to feel. It's just better for our little community if we don't gloat about it publically (in my humble opinion).

[LanternWaste]

42. I have absolutely know idea

I have absolutely know idea. Nor do I have the depth or breadth of wisdom to judge the good or evil in another man's heart.

[tabasco]

48. Someone who intentionally causes pain and suffering without just cause.

The world would be a better place without them.

[mzmolly]

49. I try not to wish death upon anyone.

Key word "try." ;)

[niyad]

51. "I have a little list--they never will be missed", , ,

[DavidDvorkin]

54. "The radio talker with an evil right-wing twist

You can be sure he won't be missed.
I'm sure he won't be missed."

[Warren Stupidity]

52. Kim Jong Il is not doing the world great harm. That fat fuck Lush is.

In terms of evil effect on the world Kim is not in the same league as Limbaugh. Kim's harm is pretty much limited to a small isolated country of no particular importance. Limbaugh is at this point in time the de facto leader of the Taliban Teabag Party formerly known as the Republican Party, and that party is preparing to reclaim control over Washington, the modern world's Rom,e at the start of the second decade of the 21st century. The harm Limbaugh et al have already done far surpasses anything Kim has accomplished, and they are now poised for even greater malignancy.