As the year ends, the site becomes less Democratic and more Underground.

[JohnnyLib2]

Is this a good thing?

I'm raising a general question, though the specific reason will float to the surface at any time.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[clear eye]

1. Many of us feel the party left us, not the other way around,

and we had no choice in the divergence.

[NJmaverick]

3. Exactly how has the party left you? There is little difference between

this administration and the last Democratic administration

[thunder rising]

9. That's a pretty low standard.

[yourout]

15. Thats the problem.

[JDPriestly]

34. We voted for change, and the changes that have occurred are

not in the right direction.

[Greyhound]

38. By failing to stand for anything at all. n/t

[gorfle]

41. Or the last Republican one, either.

There is little difference between this administration and the last Democratic administration

Or, increasingly it seems, the last Republican administration.

We're still supporting the last guy's wars, protecting corporations who help the government with domestic surveillance, still retaining the right to declare anyone an enemy combatant. We're still putting taxpayer money into bailing out banks, car makers, and insurance companies, but still not doing much for actual mortgage holders. And of course we are still letting health insurance companies and big pharma dictate American health care policy.

[liberal_at_heart]

47. Yes the democratic party has left us

The are too far to the right and take too much money from the lobbyists.

[Pirate Smile]

2. It is going to become one or the other because both wont stay here.

[babylonsister]

5. Yes. Pros or cons? Who will survive? And who knew this is what DU

would become?

[Pirate Smile]

18. I don't know. If it just becomes a place to fight against a Democratic President and Congress then

it needs to be renamed DisgruntledDemocraticUnderground.com.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnnyLib2]

28. ?

[Vinnie From Indy]

4. Maybe all that head bangin' ain't such a good idea

Though probably not intended, your post is a bit silly because you set yourself up as the judge of who is and who is not more or less a Democrat. Kinda of a presumptuous place to be don't you think?

[snagglepuss]

6. +1

[JohnnyLib2]

8. Hopefully more observant than presumptuous.

It's difficult to take the position of "screw the establishment" when we have a Democratic administration. I see a real tilt toward that position.

[rwheeler31]

7. It makes me sad I will continue to support progressive candidates,

and will not join in the Obama bashing.

[annabanana]

10. Oh for pity's sake.. This is the *small d" democraticunderground.

We prod & argue. It's what we do.

[angee_is_mad]

11. I thought it was called

Democratic Underground, but it hasn't seem that way lately.

I thought this was a haven for democratics to come together against the msm and the repubs. Amazing how the election Of Barack Obama has changed all of that.

[LoZoccolo]

12. My theory about why this is.

Long-time DUers (even longer-time than me) will remember that in 2002, there was an epic cull of DU of all splinterist disruptors. The site was presumably smaller then, and probably didn't cost much to run. Somewhere along the line, the moderation because more lax, and people were allowed to advocate for third parties and use hyperbole against the Democrats. I think that this has chased people who have come here to support the Democratic Party away, as the site becomes less and less useful for that, and I fear that we've reached a critical mass where another epic cull cannot possibly be done without running the funds dry, either by direct tombstoning of the problem users or backlash by other users not tombstoned. This continues the cycle of chasing the productive people away more and more, until DU has been gutted of loyal Democrats and has become harborage for counterproductive fit-throwers.

[JohnnyLib2]

14. You've got 4 years on me, but "critical mass" sounds about right.

Unfortunately.

[EFerrari]

21. The thing is, counterproductive fitthrowing knows no political position.

Posters on all sides do it.

Things will settle down.

[JDPriestly]

35. LoZoccolo, I am a loyal Democrat and I am not happy with much that Obama does.

My mother at 93 has been a life-long progressive, FDR Democrat. I learned what being a Democrat is about from her and from my Democratic father, both of whom saw first-hand how wonderful Roosevelt was for the country.

I remember wearing an Adlai Stevenson for president button in grade school.

I voted for my first Democratic presidential candidate in 1964: Lyndon B. Johnson. He did a lot of good things, but he made a lot of mistakes in his conduct of the Viet Nam War. Progressives let him know that they were not happy, and when he realized that he would be opposed in the primaries if he ran for another term, he decided not to run. It was too late. The Democratic Party had been deeply wounded by Johnson's terrible mistakes in Viet Nam.

I first volunteered for the Democratic Party as an adult in the McGovern campaign in 1972.

With a few exceptions in minor races, I have always loyally supported and voted for Democratic candidates.

But I learned from the mistakes of LBJ and Clinton that we do not serve our party or our country by remaining silent when we see the leaders of our party take a wrong direction. We were silent when Clinton entered into NAFTA. Our nation and our Party, every working American, has suffered because of Clinton's decision on that treaty. Clinton also made a huge mistake in signing the bill that ended Glass-Steagall protections for our banks. We are all suffering for that mistake too.

We progressives have good ideas -- Democratic ideas. Obama would do well to listen to us.

My mother and I and many loyal Democrats are very unhappy with the direction that the Obama administration and the corporate wing of our Party are headed on the economy, health care reform, human rights, the rights of working people and a number of other issues.

After a whole life in the party, after reading virtually every book that Eleanor Roosevelt wrote, I am a good judge of what being a Democrat means. Don't tell me that I and my mother are not good Democrats just because we criticize Obama's policies.

[JohnnyLib2]

42. Add 4 years and a vote for JFK, and you speak for my history!

And that is what prompted the question raised in the OP. Can this remain a place where long-term, self-identified progressive Democrats speak up, or will the angry, personal, take-no-prisoner attacks predominate?

Happy New Year to you and your mother as well. I bet she worked for the ERA. :hi:

[JHB]

43. I count as a long-time DUer. In 2002...

...we were under an illegitimately seated, warmongering, constitution-shredding administration, so the people who still spent most of their time here directly attacking Democrats in general or Democratic candidates (post-primary, running against Republicans) were a bit easier to classify as "disruptors" or just so rigid in their views as made little difference.

That's a very different situation for this board than today, where we have a Democratic administration that came into office on a campaign of hope and change, and heavy support and work by an entire wing of the party, yet after a year a substantial portion of that wing think that not only is the administration not sufficiently addressing its concerns, but that it's not even trying and simply taking their votes for granted.

That is a situation that can (and should) cause division on a Democratic board. Accusations of unproductive fit-throwing and lamenting the lack of a purge are themselves unproductive fit-throwing. "Productive people" would recognize would can the "disloyalty" talk and look for ways to throw the disgruntled faction a bone or two.

[JohnnyLib2]

45. Thank you for responding.

Hearing from the "pioneers" helps with perspective; I'm pleased to see several such comments.

[Goldstein1984]

13. From "About DU"

"...exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas...one of the premier left-wing websites...one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards...welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives...this website is not affiliated with the Democratic Party..."

Unless I remember the 60s incorrectly, "underground" has nothing to do with the mainstream of anything. In fact, the need to be "underground" is a rejection of the mainstream. If DU is really the Democratic "Underground," then the Democratic mainstream is the DU's right-wing fringe, rather than progressives being its left-wing fringe.

As one post above pointed out, there is little difference between this Democratic Administration and the last one. The last Democratic Administration gave us NAFTA, GATT, repeal of Glass-Steagall, and was generally a continuation of the free trade voodoo economics that ultimately brought us to where we are now--Reagan/Bush Light.

The real battle isn't between the Democrats and Republicans, or between the mainstream and fringes of each party; the real battle is a class struggle between the Haves, who have taken control of our government and undermines representative government, and the Have-nots, who have been driven back to the days preceding the Great Depression by late 20th Century Robber Barons who began dismantling the New Deal beginning with the Reagan Administration.

We should all be underground.

Rec--Good Question

[JohnnyLib2]

16. Thanks for the rec.

I'm expecting some clarification about this after the holidays.

[Goldstein1984]

17. We should keep this discussion going

Noticing that you're getting a lot of unrecs, I restarted it with a new OP and your question, beginning with my comment. I didn't have your username in front of me so I didn't reference your original. Please jump in on that one and take credit for the original question and add your thoughts.

It seems like DU is going through a bit of an identity crisis. I've only been on 3 weeks, so all I have is my expectations for the site. This really needs more discussion.

I'll be on for awhile.

[hyphenate]

32. DU started the day W was

inaugurated. It was the end of the Clinton era, when some progressive aims were accomplished, and the start of a totalitarian regime. REAL Democrats had to go underground, because the divisiveness caused by Bush being selected rather than elected and the likes of Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity, etc. split this country up. Ronald Reagan was the absolute worst "thing" that could ever have happened, and America was being destroyed.

Democrats didn't feel safe--there were few safe havens online for the most part, and while some groups did exist, there was a great deal of paranoia for us. While it probably wasn't true, some people felt they were being watched if they belonged to a group that supported Dems and advocated extreme dislike for the right-winged morons.

DU will have existed for 9 years in three weeks. Yes, we've changed, and no, none of us--except for trolls--"hates" the Democratic Party, we just understand more how the right-wingers destroy and divide, and we know better than to trust anyone for the most part. Yes, the last two ugly Americans who ran this country took true representation away from the people, and there was an overwhelming vote in November 2008 to put Obama into office. But while some of us felt underwhelmed by his election, we had already put ourselves into a position where he was to be the nominee anyhow, despite how we felt about him.

I recall a post I made in August, 2008, wondering why we had put ourselves into that corner, as I felt the majority of his supporters on DU were too frenzied to use common sense and critical thinking skills. But eh--I made quite a few critics that day, but persevered. I don't say "I told you so," but it stays in my mind from then that some people were louder and more obnoxious than others and were absolutely militant about electing Obama, even though he was playing the moderate even before the election.

Are we all still Dems and progressives? I don't know--are we? I think we are, but I have a hope that people would just STFU sometimes and keep their own rabid allegations to themselves, and listen to the reasons that others disagree with them on some things. Both in 2004 and 2008, there were a lot of bad feelings, broken friendships and heated anger during the primaries. When the smoke settled down, these things were still not resolved. We didn't have a "perfect" candidate, we had someone who, at the very least, was intelligent and a thinker. It was, and is, better than any candidate "they" could bring forward.

It's all done now, though, and we have to live with the decisions of the voters in our country. We might not like many of Obama's decisions to try and fill the increasingly widening chasm between the left and the right, but we've also grown stronger and more thick-skinned about what the right has to offer. We know enough to research facts better, we know that there are always going to be people who say one thing, but do something else. We know that the people we meet here at DU and elsewhere are not always genuine, and some who argue most passionately and seem more belligerent are oftentimes the most passionate people we will ever know. But we also know that the veneer of the internet can hide more people whose motivations are not always so honorable.

Arguments? Of course we have them! We would be simple robots if we simply agreed with every facet of everyone else. We look to FR to see some of that kind of thinking in action, and we abhor it. Our differences are what MAKE us Dems in the first place--we are free from conventional thinking and we are true individuals. Someone here (I believe) once said that Pugs are too much alike, which may be the reason they have a united front, but Dems are too different, too in need of less diversity, but of the thinking that all the differences between us is what binds us and makes us far more compassionate--and passionate--than the "other side."

We all agree to disagree. We all are still to the left of that great left-right scale, but put twenty of us into one room, and we'd all be in separate corners because "Why" we are Dems is why we can't always agree with others.

Should this matter? Yes. But we all have that hope that our diversities are not as important as moving the US ahead. We have different--but diverse--viewpoints. We need to listen to others, though, and find the similarities and not the differences between us all. THAT is what we all hope we can eventually do. And it really doesn't matter what the "other side" wants to happen just that we need to share our hopes, fears and dreams with those who we have more in common with, and not those who seek to destroy that element of independent thinking we have.

We have to choose "peace"--not on such a grand scale as the world at first, but with each other, finding those commonalities on which we can agree.

[JohnnyLib2]

33. Your perspective is really appreciated.

:thumbsup:

[hyphenate]

46. Thanks! eom

[laughingliberal]

40. +1000 nt

[EFerrari]

19. Think of it as an ongoing negotiation with no hostage taking and no ransom.

lol

Happy New Year, JohnnyLib2.

[JohnnyLib2]

20. Ain't that the truth!

But it comes with a price.....

Happy New Year to you, as well! :hi:

[shadowknows69]

23. I've never felt comfortable above ground. Old vampire blood in the family I suspect.

[JohnnyLib2]

25. Hah!

Never thought of you as one of those trendy Twilight types.... :evilgrin:

[shadowknows69]

30. Fuck Twilight. I'm old school Dracula boyee.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. Damn straight it's a good thing

[Forkboy]

26. The DU abides.

[JohnnyLib2]

29. Dude!

Happy New Year...............:toast:

[shadowknows69]

31. And I'm glad he does. As should we all.

[NJmaverick]

27. No it's not a good thing. It's a horribly destructive thing that ONLY serves

the agenda of the right wingers who wish to regain power so they can continue to ruin our nation.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. Good. Party fealty is, well, undemocratic.

[EFerrari]

37. Ha! Feliz Ano to the T&L family.

lol

[Quantess]

39. Never Mind. Happy New Year.

[luckyleftyme2]

48. maybe your listening to much to fox

I stand behind this administration. And if we don't we will have those idiots from the right back in control! Have you forgotten they made this mess-they kept the left from partaking in major funding and spending bills! they sank our economy and that loud mouth VP who had 6 deferments had no problem sending your sons and daughters into battle!
do a little research-they systematically raised our debt level every chance they could.
When Reagan took office we were the richest nation in the world! when he left we were the biggest debtors! his rating was so low he couldn't have been elected dog catcher in a red state!
If you hold to your principles and ignore the media (owned by the right) we will get many changes!
keep the faith and we will do well-elect the right and sell your kids to slavery!

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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