Why it costs more to be a woman

[Maine-ah]

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/ConsumerActionGuide/dunleavey-why-it-costs-more-to-be-a-woman.aspx

The January issue of Consumer Reports just came in the mail, and what I found on Page 8 shocked me. There were two bottles of Nivea body wash: one for men priced at $5.49 and one for women costing $7.49.

Why the 2-buck difference? Nivea's reason, according to Consumer Reports senior editor Tod Marks, is that the women's product is made with "skin-sensation technology," which makes it more expensive.

I tried to imagine a bigger load of bunk. I failed.

more at link

[Brickbat]

1. I usually buy men's shoes and boots because they're made better for a better price. YMMV, because

my feet are sized more like a man's. I bought men's jeans for awhile, too.

[we can do it]

20. I Always Buy "Mens" Jeans- They Come In Actual Measurement Sizes That Fit

I HATE the stupid womens models with enormous hips...............also I buy shoes that fit as well and screw tiny pointy shoes and high heels - why do women purposely ruin their feet? and sweaters -another thing, its cold in the winter- why wear a sweater that only covers you rib cage?

[bobbolink]

121. Mens pants are fine for those who are short-waisted.

Of course, with womens' styles being "below waist", those of us who are long-waisted are SOL.

Damned good thing I know how to sew!!

[we can do it]

162. Some of Us Are Pretty Straight Up and Down

so the wide waist and belt up under the boobs just does not work!

[bobbolink]

167. Remember the days when there were CHOICES in sizes???

Manufacturers knew bodies were different.

What an amazing concept.

[we can do it]

178. Yes and Whats Up with Size "0" ???

also remember when you knew your shoe size, your shoes fit? You could have someone pick something up for you and it actually fit- not so with the chinese crap, one skinny arm, one long leg......

[badgerpup]

41. Women's shoes seem to come in either pink or plastic...

and have high heels. Pointed toe box, really narrow around the arch (don't know what that part of the shoe is called), and the back is placed exactly on the Achilles tendon back of the ankle where it'll rub and cause a blister. :nuke:

If you don't like pink, need some foot support, and really all you care about is "Are your shoes comfortable?" go with the guys' shoes. They're made sturdy, supportive and comfortable for the most part...and they're NEVER, EVER, EVER PINK!!!

[Kalyke]

69. While I have seen pink women's shoes, I find it's more common

with little girls shoes. I see a lot of black, brown and tan women's shoes.

I agree, though about the pointy toe; however, as someone who has a high arch, I like at least a two-inch heel. It's more comfortable to me than flat shoes.

And, I'm with you on the pink. I hate it, hate it, hate it, hate it. When I go to buy my 2-year-old daughter something, I usually end up with one green outfit and something out of the boys' section because most of the clothes manufactured for little girls is all-colors of God-awful PINK. :puke:

[FourScore]

47. I usually buy boys' shoes. I'm a ladies size 7 and can fit in a

boys size. Often I can get the same shoe for half the cost. It's great.

[we can do it]

179. You Are So Lucky, I've Got a Friend Who Does the Same Thing

[LWolf]

58. When I can find them,

I buy a men's size 6. My feet are only a woman's size 7 in length, but way too wide for shoes made for women. So I can buy double wides, which tend to be expensive, or men's 6.

Which aren't as easy to find, but fit just fine when I do.

[juno jones]

60. Wide feet here.

I cannot wear most shoes made for women. Back when I wore jeans, I wore guys too because they had a better fit.

[wickerwoman]

94. Same here.

The only women's shoes I've ever been able to wear are clogs from Dansko. I can't even get my foot into 99% of the women's models and I can't imagine how uncomfortable they would be to wear all day.

I did switch to women's jeans a few years back because the men's ones were a little too crotchy when I lost weight. It sucks that you have to try on a million pairs of women's jeans to find ones that fit because the size will never tell you and even two pairs of the same brand, same size won't fit exactly the same way.

And don't get me started on how much women are expected to spend on beauty products to be presentable at work.

[juno jones]

130. In work I am fortunate.

As a cook I live in T-shirt and checkered pants/shorts. I even get to wear huge clunky boots with scads of arch support. It's one of the reasons I stuck with it. I am horribly uncomfortable and self-conscious in the clothing that is considered standard female work wear in office and retail because they don't make it to fit my frame. I've always hated jobs where I have to dress like that. The extra grooming is just another indignity! :)

On edit: :loveya:

[Robb]

2. On the flip side of that

...Clinique's lotions.

Haven't bought such things in years, but used to date someone in the "industry." Clinique had (may still have) two lotions, one for women called "Dramatically Different Moisturizing Lotion" and one for men called "M Lotion."

The formula for the two was identical. The men's lotion was amusingly packaged in a manly gray thing, and sold for a little more than twice as much per ounce. :shrug:

[Mari333]

3. I used to only buy my clothing in the mens dept

its cheaper and sturdier.
and yes, its a load of bunk.
they think women are stupid. well, some of us are not.
now that I have discovered second hand stores, and I am old, I do not purchase new products anymore in many areas.
I am the antithesis of shopping, and I hate it.
Yes, they think they are pulling a fast one on women.
but we are savvier then they think.

[ananda]

8. I buy men's products sometimes too.

One, pockets. When I go out, I need pockets and
women's clothes are notoriously short on decent
pockets... particularly when I'm walking for
exercise.

I don't always buy men's athletic shoes, but
every so often I do when I can't find a type
in women's.

Also, don't forget about haircuts.. much
cheaper for men.

[Mari333]

12. oh yes haircuts

I now cut my own hair. I hate sitting in a shoppe where someone keeps asking me questions about my life and keeps bugging me to dye my hair.
for 20 bucks ? hell, I can buy drinks at a bar and get the same annoying people around me for 20 bucks.

[we can do it]

68. I've Been Going To Best Cuts, Same Price for Everyone

[femrap]

26. Men's haircuts....grrrrrrrr!

a new haircut chain has opened in central ohio that serves ONLY men. They get a cut and a neck Massage!!! Cuz they're stressed! I guess they'll cut a woman's hair but NO massage.

GRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!

I think it's called Sports Clips...like women don't play sports??? Or get stressed??? Shit, we work for 75 cents on the dollar that the boyz get...that in itself is f*cking stressful.

[jmowreader]

104. They've had places like that for centuries

They're called "barbershops."

I'm surprised it took them this long to come up with a chain of them.

[femrap]

115. No, most barbers aren't women

dressed alluringly. And barbers don't give deep neck massages.

And women with short hair are welcome at barbershops.

Did you read the post?

[jmowreader]

134. I read the post.

If you'd like to come to Fayettenam I would be MORE than happy to take you to barbershops with alluringly dressed female barbers who give deep neck massages.

In fact, I can take you outside any military post in the United States and show you the same thing.

But on a more serious note: you're looking at the Hooters of barbershops,

[femrap]

159. OK....

guess you're off your meds.

Good luck and buh bye.

[LiberalAndProud]

170. My hairdresser is truly an artist.

And I get a scalp massage with every wash. After she helped me grieve for my impending loss, she straightened my very long hair, braided it and cut it off to send to Locks of Love. Then she gave me a dynamite hair style.

Do not diss my hairdresser.

[femrap]

177. Your hairdresser works

at 'Sport Clips?' That was my complaint...only men are encouraged to go there and they are the only ones who get neck massages.

I don't know your hairdresser....she sounds wonderful.

I go where there are coupons or cut my own.

[Maine-ah]

42. jean pockets piss me off

can't fit the cell phone in them. So I stuff it into the side of my bra.

[Mari333]

45. hah!

I have seen many things come out of brassieres besides boobs.
There is a Facebook page called "Keeping things in Your Bra".
hahahahaha

[WonderGrunion]

51. Breast sweat is NOT covered by your phone insurance.

Just so you know. Wrap it in plastic wrap first and use a bluetooth headset.

[Le Taz Hot]

61. What is this "bra" thing of which you speak?

OK, OK, I admit I BEGRUDGINGLY wear one sometimes when I have to go out but the damned things give me hot flashes and, well, you don't even know what I have to do to cool the double-d's down. Let's just say it involves a lot of physical lifting and fanning.

[liberal_at_heart]

83. lol. I don't wear my bra at home either

[Mari333]

93. hah!

I wear one when I run so I dont hit myself in the face

[Maine-ah]

156. lol, I don't wear it unless I have to leave the house

when I am at home, the cell sits in my waist band of my yoga pants. As for the sweat, well, I really don't much there, maybe because I have small boobies. :shrug:

[FourScore]

48. Try going in the hair salon and telling them you want a men's cut.

Then pick out a guys cut out of a magazine that you think would best fit you. I wonder what they'd do...

[niyad]

I have always been a savvy shopper, and love the thrift stores. very much a part of the "buy

nothing new" movement.

[AspenRose]

70. I don't know if anyone has noticed

but they don't make women's t-shirts in realistic sizes anymore. More often times than not when I try to order a t-shirt online the caveat "this shirt runs very small" is somewhere...so I order the men's shirt. More comfortable. Babydoll t-shirts that have a women's size 8 listed as XL are not for this D cup woman.

[niceypoo]

4. Goop

My wife and daughter buy every imaginable type of goop. Hand goop, face goop, foot goop, leg goop...hair goop. All expensive as hell.

[Mari333]

6. lolol I remember buying goop when I was young

getting old , no more goop. thank god, because you get wise.

[MineralMan]

16. My wife used to use a lot of Nivea on her face.

She said she needed it because her face was so dry. I noticed that she had some red skin irritation. So I looked at the Nivea ingredients list. Three kinds of alcohol in there. Uff da!

I bought her some cheap cold cream from Walgreens. Said, try this. She tried it. Irritation went away.

Look at the ingredients list. Some skin creams and lotions are designed to feel nice, but the alcohols used in them dry your skin out so you need some more of the goop.

Cold cream. Petroleum jelly whipped with water. That's it. That's all. It greases you up just fine.

Same wife has dry hands in Winter. Many different goops were tried. Bought her a can of Bag Balm at Walgreens. Lanolin and not much else. Works great.

[femrap]

31. Mineral Oil is VERY drying....

it seems to actually draw what natural moisture we have in our skin OUTWARD. It is in practically everything.

Mineral oil is very cheap so the Greedy Corporations love using it. From what I've seen, European companies won't use it.

I buy cheap goop from Aldi's which is German owned (and owns Trader Joe's via a Trust).

[we can do it]

24. Unscented Mens Hair Goop Is About 25% the Cost of Womens

[Hekate]

148. My all-purpose face to toes goop is a tub of Cetaphil Moisturizing Cream, $10 gets you over a pound

20 oz. at Costco for $9.99. I got it for my husband's cracked and bleeding hands, but it's now a staple for my own dry skin.

I love how the teeny pots of face cream smell, but they're so --expensive... and teeny.

Hekate

[panader0]

5. Women spend more on clothing too I would think

In my line of work, construction, I don't have to get dressed up. Old clothes are just fine as I'll get dirty for sure.
Also, feminine products aren't cheap.

[Mari333]

7. there is nothing more delightful

than thumbing ones nose at feminine products after menopause. :P

[Heidi]

10. I've been looking forward to menopause since I was 11.

You give me hope.

[Mari333]

15. hahahahaha

I was mad as a hornet when I was 12 and was told I would have a period for 40 more years. I remember breaking a mirror.
well, its wonderful. Its just wonderful. Menopause is like having one more annoying thing end for good. Its great!!

[Heidi]

19. I don't know if it's because I grew up in the south, but girls actually looked FORWARD to

to the onset of menstruation, and our moms were creepily weirdly ceremonious about the presentation of one's first Kotex belt. I hope this was just an Arkansas/Oklahoma/Kentucky thing or a phenomenon confined to my own peer set, but I dunno.

"Congratulations! Here's a lovely elastic belt to support that king-sized pillow between your legs for the next 40 years of your life, honey! Don't say I never gave you anything!"

[Mari333]

22. LOL I remember that but there was no joy

Just me looking into my mother's closet in the bathroom and seeing a HUGE box of Kotex, with a rose on it.
I used to think WTF is this crap?

Than, having to wear that crap trying to walk around in junior high feeling like you had a diaper on.

at least they didnt demand we douche.

that would have been the Inquisition.

[Heidi]

27. My brother, eight years younger than me, believed Kotex were "shoe fillers."

My sister and I did little or nothing to disabuse him of the notion. He thought he was walking on clouds and gained a good two inches in height from the Kotex he had inserted in each of Dad's size 11 Florsheim wingtips.

[Mari333]

30. well Honey, That Was The Best Post I ever Saw on DU

Im laughing so hard imagining your brother wearing Kotex on his feet I had to run and pee

Thank You.
Even the term ROFL cannot describe how I am laughing right now.

Tears roll down my eyes....

[Heidi]

34. Oh, it's all funny until little brother put all the pieces together when he was about 14

and figured that our sister was 11 months and two weeks younger than me. He probably coined the term "You were a foam baby."

[Arkansas Granny]

78. My nephew couldn't understand why my sister always bought those boxes of

her "favorite old things" every month and would never share with him. He was pretty upset about it. She really didn't know how to explain to him what they were or what they were used for, because at 3-4 yo he probably wouldn't have believed her anyway (You do what with it and you put it where?!?!?).

[badgerpup]

35. Warning...kinda icky

Remember 'finding' a used kotex when I was about eight years old and it scared the living daylights out of me.
:wtf:

I was old enough to recognize something mass-produced, i.e., 'these things get needed a LOT'.
The wail of "Dear GOD (I was a Catholic back then), what is this that they aren't telling me?" that went through my head.
:yoiks:
Later that year we got 'the movie' in school that all the girls watched while the boys went to an 'assembly' of some sort.
Question answered. Oh, joy. What I have to look forward to!
:sarcasm:
For some reason, the "Then I'll be able to have babies!" (Catholic, remember?) aspect didn't thrill me in the least.

[Heidi]

36. Aw, that's not nearly as icky as the propaganda that was foisted upon us, badgerpup.

I think it's a lot MORE icky to tell girls, "Tampons are only for married women." But I understand where you're comin' from. :hug:

[Le Taz Hot]

62. "Tampons are only for married women"

Well, that and cats. When I was still doing the menstruation thing, my cats had a habit of getting my tampons from underneath the bathroom sink, tearing them open and playing with the cool toy with the "tail." This was in my single days and one evening I came home from a date and invited him in for "coffee" (that's my story and I'm stickin' to it) just to find tampons strewn all over the house. Mortified doesn't begin to describe my reaction.

[Mari333]

39. hhahahahahahaha

not gross, just funny.
You must have been in Catholic school with me hahahahahaha

[pipi_k]

44. Just as icky....

When I was a child, my mother used to somehow forget to flush the toilet after changing her Tampax.

I can't count the times I went in, all unsuspecting, to use the toilet and end up traumatized by seeing a toilet full of bloody water.


I'm convinced that this (as well as another horrifying to a child) occurrence triggered my extreme phobia of blood, which was hell for me every single month of my fertile years.

[PassingFair]

181. Kotex "Classics"

http://hollyhockfarms.multiply.com/video/item/18/Kotex_Classic\



:rofl:

[RobinA]

180. Remember That Box

well. I got in on the tail end of that. Then I went to college and discovered tampons. Never looked back. I haven't owned a pad since 1976, and now it looks like I won't be needing anything.

[tonysam]

25. +1,000

I don't miss that "period" garbage at all.

Menstrual cycle 1969-2006. Goodbye and good fucking riddance.

[Heidi]

38. based on your calculation, I'm doin' the math RIGHT NOW!

2006
-1969
________
37 years



1974
+ 37 years
_____________
2011!!!!!!!!!! :woohoo: :bounce:

[kestrel91316]

55. Well, for me it's :

1970 >>>> 2009 and counting, but I haven't had a period since Sep or Oct, and prior to that would skip one occasionally and then resume right on schedule. I am thinking I should not buy any more "feminine hygiene products" for now. Could wind up a total waste of money, lol, not that I'd miss it!

As somebody who stayed on the Pill in part because of incapacitating cramps from 1974-2004, I will not miss my periods one whit.

I did discover the benefits of natural progesterone cream years ago when I was having hot flashes and "bladder control issues" in my early-mid 40's and only recently stopped because with missing periods I can't figure out the schedule for using it, lol!

[pipi_k]

28. I was one of the lucky ones

who never had much of a problem with menstruation, so when it became apparent, in my mid 40s, that I was peri-menopausal, I was very depressed for a long time.

That whole "losing my youth" thing, you know.

Now that I'm on the other side of menopause, it's not a big issue. Like you said, one less annoying thing to deal with, but in my case, only because the getting here was a huge hassle.

Perimenopause lasted more than ten miserable years, and the "flooding" and hot flashes and everything else that can happen were hell.


God, at times I thought I was my own evil twin.

[tonysam]

32. I didn't have problems, either, but I was damned glad it was over.

The problem was depression caused by menopause, not by my loss of youth or whatever. It was scary because I'd feel fine one minute, and then my whole body would "crash." I knew what was going on, so I did my best to make sure the depression didn't overcome me.

I haven't had that in a long time.

[pipi_k]

40. I hear ya...

once I got a couple of years into perimenopause the depression got hold of me too...and, like you said, not the loss of youth thing.

There was a period during late 2001/early 2002 when Mr Pip seriously thought he'd have to have me hospitalized, that's how bad it was.

and the mood swings!!!!!

I'm much more stable now, and taking a lot of Vitamin D to help with depression and seasonal affective disorder. Seems to be working pretty well.

[panader0]

23. My sweetheart has been going through the change for nearly five years

We have the fan on in our bedroom every night, even when it's 20 degrees outside. Tossing and turning, hot then cold.
But no more periods.

[tonysam]

29. I had the night sweat shit for a couple of years.

I haven't had it in a couple of years, knock on wood. I'll be 55 in a couple of weeks.

[ismnotwasm]

136. *sigh*

I'm just a few years away, perhaps less. I'm so jealous this winding down shit is a pain in the ass. Anyway, If I was younger, I swear I'd invest in the washable products. Fuck Kotex.

[csziggy]

54. Women's clothing is more expensive and badly made

Men would never buy pants that are as badly constructed as the average slacks made for women. Even jeans for women tend to be made from thinner cloth with less sturdy seams and cheaper zippers than men's jeans - but cost 50% more. Same for button down tailored shirts - women's are made from inferior material, less well made but cost a lot more. I shop in the men's department for many, many things!

Years ago when I first started buying tailored men's shirts rather than women's shirts, I took them into the dry cleaners to be laundered and ironed - when they realized the shirts were not my (non-existent) husband's, they tried to charge me twice as much for their work even though the shirts were men's shirts. WTF? Why would women's shirts made the same way cost more to process than men's? I never went back to that dry cleaners - instead I went to one that had one price for all shirts - period.

I've been hunting for a good quality but not expensive lined suit. The cheapest I have found one is several hundred dollars - more than I can afford to spend for something I might wear a few times a decade (I need a suit for funerals and weddings). I can get cheap crap "stylish" suits that might last a couple of wearings and be out of style by the next time I need it. And those cost over $100. My husband can find a good quality, classic tailored suit for about $100 in a style that will be acceptable for decades and made to last longer than he will need it. Not fancy, but it does what he needs.

[we can do it]

66. I Had the Exact Same Thing Happen To Me

the asshole tried to tell me they were now "blouses" because I owned them......I seriously cussed him out, my partner came in from the squad to see what was happening-

[HuckleB]

125. I would say that it's not more expensive, but it is poorly made...

... making it more expensive in the long run.

[Dulcinea]

155. One of my pet peeves!

Try finding women's jeans made out of real denim instead of that cheap cheesy fabric they use, which wears out in a year or so, thus necessitating the purchase of a new pair of overpriced jeans.

My hips & thighs are the widest part of my anatomy, so I need women's jeans, but I buy them on eBay or on sale. I refuse to pay $100 or more for them!

[Heidi]

9. Recommended.

Had EXACTLY the SAME Nivea experience in Switzerland this week when CMW asked me to pick him up some deo. But I don't believe it's a Nivea-specific situation at all; I believe it's more of a "women being willing to pay that extra 2 bucks" situation and it's not just toiletries.

:kick:

[elocs]

11. The trouble is, the bunk works. If women refused to pay more they couldn't charge more.

So in the case you cite it's women who cause the higher cost for themselves.

The truth is that a lot of that stuff is way overpriced to begin with.

[FourScore]

49. Uh-huh. It's the women's fault. Riiight. n/t

[elocs]

56. Please explain to me in the example given how women could be charged a higher price

for the same product if they refused to buy it? Yes, in that case it is the fault of women who choose to pay more for the same thing that the price for the women's product is higher.

[JonQ]

64. Unless they are being forced to buy this stuff

then yeah, it is their fault.

It's not some sexist conspiracy. These companies would charge men more too if they could get away with it. But men would stop buying their products if they did, so the prices stay lower.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

118. I have a friend who works in a machine shop-- he told me the policy

on "ladies'" tools or other manufactured products marketed to women.

My friend had pointed out to the supervisor about shoddy materials being provided for a particular item...

The response was oh, it's shitty quality, that's because it's for the ladies.

[JonQ]

127. Assuming that any of that is true

why do you suppose they are able to get away with it? Why wouldn't they do the same to men if they thought they could?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

132. ah, so accuse me of being a liar.

great way to open discussion.

as I've mentioned elsewhere, simplistic reductive whacks suggest hostile contempt rather than illuminating wisdom.

If you are looking for informative answers to your questions, they may be found in abundance on this thread.

Good evening to you.

[JonQ]

142. I don't know if you are telling the truth or not

I am always hesitant to blindly accept personal anecdotes that someone heard from a friend that just happen to perfectly "prove" the point they are trying to make on an anonymous internet posting site. That seems like reasonable skepticism to me.

And you did not answer my questions.

[Lorien]

152. No, your a deliberately obtuse one

and always have been.

[JonQ]

160. Incorrect

I'm quite clear and direct, and I understand all the arguments being leveled against me. I just point out when people are wrong without couching it in false praise, which doesn't tend to endear me to them.

[Gormy Cuss]

92. Damn straight, but we are so saturated with marketing from cradle to grave

that it's hard to see through the pink veil on this stuff. There also are some legitimate gender-based differences in preference for scents, packaging, and the like. Products wouldn't be targeted by gender otherwise. We can thank consumer reporters who expose the times when gender-based marketing and marketing alone accounts for the difference in pricing.

[ensho]

13. plus many of us have the cost of bleeding once a month

men don't have that cost.

[pipi_k]

21. I've been waiting for a chance to hawk my latest discovery...

Gladrags

http://www.goddesspads.com/


Since I'm post menopause, I actually bought them to replace the urinary incontinence pads, and they work well.

They cost a bit more initially, but with proper care, they can last for years.


I bought mine on Amazon.com. Seems kinda gross at first, but once you get used to the idea, it's OK.


:)

[EndersDame]

146. I use sea sponge tampons I dont know if they would work for you situation

http://www.jadeandpearl.com/catalog/index.php Fuck buying over priced wadded up pieces of cotton that have bleach on them!

[KittyWampus]

14. as a woman, I lol'ed. Unless it involves an orgasmic like sensation....

I like 'Beauty Without Cruelty' and 'Kiss My Face' products.

[asdjrocky]

17. I don't need a study to tell me that.

I've been married 3 times.

[pipi_k]

18. Whenever I can, I buy mens clothing/shoes

Mainly because women's shoes are too narrow for my feet. And I hate clothing that's too tight, not just to hide the flab, but it's uncomfortable.

Price-wise, sometimes the men's sizes are a bit more expensive, but at least I get stuff that feels comfortable. And hoodies and other things are easier for me to zip up/button when the zippers/buttons are on the opposite side from women's clothing.


I used to buy jeans from the mens department too, back when I was a teenager. One reason being that they didn't have a lot of "Tall" sizes back then for women. The other being that men's jeans are pretty much straight up and down and I didn't have hips for a long time.

Had to stop buying them when I finally got me some extra padding

[femrap]

33. I, too, have discovered

the men's dept. at Kohl's. Fabulous bermuda shorts for 90% off ($4.90) and NOT made in China! And nice 'big and comfy' t-shirts that don't cling to your body and have no spandex!

I was amazed to see that much of men's clothing is made in India, where most of women's clothing is made in China.

[pipi_k]

43. One place I occasionally buy women's clothing from

where most of it is made in India is Holy Clothing on eBay.


They've got some pretty nice stuff, relatively inexpensive, and big sizes that are roomy.

Rayon...silky and slinky, for special occasions, or even casual wear

:)

[femrap]

97. Thanks for the tip....nt

[niyad]

37. haven't ever bought nivea, now, definitely never will. time to make a phone call. .

there have been many articles over the years about the difference between costs for men and women--things like dry cleaning, alterations, haircuts, etc., etc. very eye-opening indeed, especially when considering that women STILL get paid, on average, 75 cents on the dollar that men make.

[liberal_at_heart]

76. I certainly don't buy products because they have girly beads or moisture strips in them

I buy plain old moisturizer, usually Neutrogena because it works the best for me.

[Oregone]

46. It costs far more to be a married man

[Book Lover]

53. I think what you mean is that it's more expensive to be a head-of-household

than single, male or female. Speaking as the sole wage earner/head-of-household, "supporting" my husband and disabled child, yeah, I spend more than a single person does. Our houshold is larger than a single person's. Gender doesn't come into the picture.

[Oregone]

109. Yeah, but its not as funny sounding that way

:)

[Lorien]

59. Oh bullshit. I know married men who haven't worked in five years. Their wives not

only bring home the paycheck they care for the kids, pay the bills, cook the meals and are expected to keep the house clean while hubby spends his time enjoying his playstation and flat screen TV.

Now try being a single mother of two (hell, many married women I know practically are) THEN get back to us.

[seabeyond]

67. actually, you are wrong. every study show a man does better financially and emotionally

married

[Oregone]

108. You don't understand.

Not only do you have to buy the marked down "men's" version of clothing, you also gotta buy the expensive "women's" one too.

[seabeyond]

133. what i understand is i dont like to spend money. i dont waste my money on fads ect...

shopping doesnt satisfy any emotional need in me. i dont fall for all those bullshit products, gotta buy this to be pretty, desirable or a woman. ect. i reject all the conditioning crap society throws at all of us.

what i dont understand, lol, is your post.

[Oregone]

143. Simply put: Buying both is more expensive than buying either one

Not sure why thats so complicated

[JonQ]

71. It costs even more

to be a formerly married man.

[seabeyond]

87. so it is ALL a mans

women contribute nothing

why am i not surprised with this attitude

[JonQ]

88. On another thread

you were boasting of how happy you were.

Then you fly off the handle at a simple, harmless joke.

[seabeyond]

90. again, the assumptions i am "flying off handle" with a simple question i ask you

a SIMPLE question. it is ALL a mans and a woman contributes nothing?

is flying off the handle to you?

i suppose that makes me "bitter" that i asked you another question

and ha ha, what a funny joke that was putting women in their place, kinda like the misogynist bullshit of the thread you refer? hence my laughter. isn't life a hoot

[JonQ]

91. I think you have poor reading skills

The post was "it costs more to be a married man" I responded with "it costs even more to be a formerly married man" ie "divorce is expensive".

You somehow took that as "putting women in their place".

So seething bitterness combined with poor reading skills will tend to lead to these sorts of misunderstandings/faux outrages on your part.

I suggest you work on one or the other (or both ideally).

And BTW this:

it is ALL a mans and a woman contributes nothing?

Makes no sense as a question. What are you even asking?

[LanternWaste]

99. In other words, it costs more to make bad decisions.

In other words, it costs more to make bad decisions.

[seabeyond]

102. happy new years to you....

i thought you done flew the coop

[LanternWaste]

107. It's gotten flaky around here in the past six months

"i thought you done flew the coop"
It's gotten flaky around here (well, *more* flaky) in the past six months, so I've been posting and visiting less and less.

Raising a cup of kindness to you and yours for the coming year. :)

[JonQ]

111. I suppose

if you want to lay 100% of the blame for 100% of all divorces on the man making bad decisions, sure.

[LanternWaste]

116. I was not gender specific

I believe you induced incorrectly as I was not gender specific.

[JonQ]

119. You responded to a statement that was gender specific

So yes, you were.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

123. wrong. Gender neutral statements

are gender neutral.

They are frequently made as a corrective to gender biased statements.

[LanternWaste]

137. I'm afraid I was not

I'm afraid I was not-- as either a male or female can make the bad decision I was referring to. You can of course keep telling me what you have absolute knowledge of what I was referring to, but it changes little if anything.

(Some answers may be more general than the question they regard, and other may be more specific...)

[JonQ]

138. Scroll up

the response you were commenting on was "It costs even more to be a formerly married man."

Do you see anything in there that might be considered gender specific?

[LanternWaste]

147. an answer may often be more specific or more general than the question.

"Did you see her walk into the theater?" Gender specific question.

I saw no one enter the theater." Gender neutral answer (that means it does not specify one sex or the other...)

Again, an answer may often be more specific or more general than the question. I saw gender specified in your question. You incorrectly inferred gender specifics in my answer.

[LiberalAndProud]

171. Now, that made me lol.

[Gman2]

50. Skin sensation tech, is part of the magic they sell women. It's all hyperbola.

Women are suckers. They get a tingle, to denote the magic contained within. And with products, you can remain alluring, and therefore command the resources of more prominent men. It is sick, and sickening. I live in the trophy wife capital of the world. It is a BIG part of why we all tried to McMansion up. Women control the tone of daily life.

[bettyellen]

74. what a load of woman hating crap- we control the tone by what- being overworked and underpaid...LOL

like you bear no responsibility for where you live? or you never wanted to keep up with the jones.... show that yours is bigger or you have more toys.. oh please, what BS.

[Gman2]

95. Every salesman, madison avenuer, waitress knows this. Cept you.

[JonQ]

96. They're in on the conspiracy too

all of 'em.

[bettyellen]

100. so you're powerless while earning 130% of what women do and keeping them underemployed is some

sort of a ploy..... well boo hoo. men want to get laid so they are actually considerate of a woman's wants- at times . what a crime that is, you guys should have to do nothing, and have it all. Gotcha.

[Gman2]

101. Who ever said I let men off the hook?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

124. Unlike men, who NEVER buy for the magic of BIG DICKitude.

nope, never.

[Gman2]

165. While all the commercials prove SOME insecurity, most men dont buy that shit.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

174. links, please

to verify your universal statements.

Looks to me like you're basing all your disparaging remarks on cosmetics use comparisons between genders.

There are plenty of big dickitude items in aisles other than the cosmetics.

Beer ads promise you'll be more manly, have better male-bonding experiences, or just plain pwn the poosay.

Maxim, GQ, Wired, Hot Rod, Easy Rider, Car and Driver, Cigar Afficionado, and other gizmo-selling hi-tech, hi-end status products or muscle-machine rags for men say otherwise.

[treestar]

52. Make up, hair products

No kidding. I recall reading women's clothes cost more, too, even though they don't really contain anything more that causes more work.

[Lorien]

57. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. On top of that we only make 0.60 on

a man's dollar (yes, that rule still applies at many corporations). Everything from haircuts to dry cleaning to soap that is marketed to women is significantly more expensive. Then there's all of those "feminine products" that add to our costs. One boss I had tried to justify my lower wages and lack of bonus checks by saying "yes, you are a valued employee, but you have to understand; men just need more stuff than women do." I asked him why my single father who spent his summers in Europe with his girlfriend needed more "stuff" than my single mom of two did, and he said "well, they just do." :grr:

[JonQ]

85. I'm calling BS on that

"One boss I had tried to justify my lower wages and lack of bonus checks by saying "yes, you are a valued employee, but you have to understand; men just need more stuff than women do.""

Sorry but I really doubt this. Had that happened you would have been behind a very successful discrimination suit and ended up fairly wealthy. Or at the very least he would have been fired.

And it is illegal to pay a woman less for the same job than you would pay a man. The reason for a disparity is A) women tend to have different, often lower paying jobs (although this fading away) B) women are more likely to quit, take maternity leave, retire early or take part time jobs to be around their families than a man C) often have less experience than men (although this is changing rapidly) in their field simply due to seniority and D) are shown to be less aggressive when asking for raises.

All this leads to differences in pay, but those differences are due to legitimate causes, not simply "you're a woman so I will pay you exactly 60% of what I would have given you if you had a penis".

[niyad]

98. you really are clueless, aren't you? what fantasy world do you live in, where you think women can

just file discrimination lawsuits and get rich? what fantasy world do you live in where you have never heard of the wage disparities between men and women, even those supposedly doing the same job? do you have any idea how long it took us fighting to even get those laws on the books? not that they are being enforced. but, you go ahead and dwell in your little fantasy world. the rest of us know the truth.

[JonQ]

128. Keep fighting to good fight!

Even when it makes you look insane, keep fighting.

[Lorien]

150. Sorry kiddo, your the one breathing thin air on your very own imaginary world. nt

[noamnety]

139. Adding to that - Here's what happens in the real world

I've seen it myself - boss pulls top three candidate's personnel files for a new position, finds out this one over here has filed an EEO complaint, tosses her file in the "do not hire" pile.

Fantasy world - file a complaint, get rich.
Real world - file a complaint, get blacklisted.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lorien]

149. This happened at one of America's biggest corporations

well known for winning any lawsuits brought against it. You sound just like any white guy saying "there's no such thing as racism anymore." Sorry dude, but I'M calling you on YOUR bullshit. Women get less pay then men do for the EXACT SAME POSITION ALL THE TIME. The company I worked for paid women $25 per hour and men $45 pr hour for the same position. I was considered "lucky" to make $35 an hour because I was more experienced and TRAINING the boys who were making more than I. These companies do it for the same reason corporations keep dangerous products on the market long after they know they are deadly; they're gambling against a lawsuit, and they profit if that gamble pays off. I needed the money and never had the resources to mount a major lawsuit against a fortune 500 company so I kept making a case for myself and outperforming my male colleagues until I eventually made $40 an hour. Still not pay equity, but it was a hell of a lot better than the $25 per hour I would have gotten otherwise.

[JonQ]

161. Nope, against calling BS

you are just making up stories as it is convenient for you. The 70 cents on a dollar thing has been debunked a long time ago. It was just a bad study that came up with that figure, or rather a study that already had it's conclusion in mind before they started.

[LiberalAndProud]

172. It is very difficult to wage a discrimination case of any kind.

You have to prove that you're just not as good at your job as the youngish WASP in the next cubicle.

[we can do it]

182. What A complete Load of Crap

[RobinA]

183. Reality Check

I went for a job interview and when the women called me back she said that she really liked me but couldn't hire me because the head of the agency wanted to hire a man. This was two years ago. I kid you not. Clearly against the law, but I couldn't be bothered suing them and wouldn't have gotten wealthy if I had. People do say and think this dumb stuff.

[dustbunnie]

103. Salary discrimination is against the law. If some boss really did admit such

discriminatory practices to you, which I doubt unless you are 80 years old, then you should have hauled ass down to a lawyer's office. You could have sued their asses off.

We shouldn't routinely make 60 cents against a man's dollar, and in the cases where it still happens and it can be proven, women need to step up to the plate and stop the practice.

[jmm]

106. Even when there is proof of discrimination or harassment at a job

it takes quite a bit of evidence to be able to sue asses off or get a company to do anything about it. Most of the time it comes down to a he said she said situation so even when women step up to the plate the practices don't stop.

[dustbunnie]

110. It's hard to get evidence together when you're forced to sneak around --

try to garner support or info from other co-workers, etc. But if a boss openly admits to the discrimination and willingly has convos about it, that's just incredible. I would imagine it's much easier to pile up evidence and pursue such a case.

[jmm]

113. I once had a boss steal my phone number,

use a work phone to call me at home late one night, and blatantly tell me if I was his girl I'd have preferred schedule, staffing, and he'd help me get a promotion. Despite the phone record and witnesses to other in appropriate comments all they did was change his hours since the worst of his comments were not made to me in front of witnesses. Even with my cell phone record and a witness to my half of the conversation I couldn't prove what he said.

When people discriminate or harass they may it admit it to some but they usually know how hard it is to prove and won't admit in a court or if their job is on the line.

[Lorien]

151. Yeah, I could have sued against a corporation that has almost never lost a

suit brought against them. I'd be bankrupt AND blacklisted. Sorry, but that fight is better left to those with huge inheritances, well employed spouses or those with winning lottery tickets.

[RobinA]

184. I Worked as a Paralegal

at a large law firm doing employment law work. My firm defended big companies when they were sued by employees for discrimination. Believe me, it is VERY hard to prove you were discriminated against, it costs a lot of money, and you don't get much out of it. It's jaw-dropping what people will argue was not really discrimination. Work at an all-guy job as a female? One ladies room in a ten acre worksite? Guys hide the keys to the truck so you can't use it to drive to the one bathroom? Discrimination? Nope, harmless fun. Har har. One guy being sued grabbed me and kissed me in the parking lot of the court house in front of other people. His lawyer (my boss) pretended not to see it, no one said boo. Yep, discrimination is just a bad memory.

[JonQ]

63. Women get charged more because they are willing to pay more

for certain items.

If a company tried to market soap to men at comparable prices for women then most men would simply switch to cheaper soaps. In general men don't see those items as being as important as women do in terms of what they are willing to pay for it.

If women stopped paying extra for soap then companies would stop charging extra.

[bettyellen]

72. actually, we don't all go to the men;s section to comparison shop, but thanks for the blame!

[JonQ]

79. You comment makes little sense

there is no need for comparison. If I told you that I will sell you soap for 100 dollars a bottle, does it matter what I am charging someone else? Likely you would say that is too much and not buy it because the number is too high, it doesn't matter what others pay.

And yes, women are to blame for this if they are willing to pay that much. There isn't some evil patriarchal conspiracy against women to make them pay more for soap just because. The companies charge as much as they think they can get away with. The fact that there is a price difference between genders simply proves that the price ceiling is a bit higher for women than for men.

So yeah, if all women refused to pay over a certain amount for soap then you would not see soap marketed above that price to women. Pretty simple actually.

This is about economics, not sexism. Same reason most ads are directed at women in general. Women tend to spend more than men on these sorts of things. Advertising experts know this and capitalize on it.

[anigbrowl]

114. What's stopping you? Accepting sticker price is for suckers.

Mrs Vrowl has particular products she likes that are marketed exclusively to women...so she finds ways to get them at wholesale or heavily discounted prices instead of paying retail (you can find multiple options for just about anything if you look hard enough). If you're buying some product that you know to be generic and you pay extra to have in a pink bottle, that's your own fault, sorry.

[bettyellen]

73. actually, we don't all go to the men;s section to comparison shop, but thanks for the blame!

[Zynx]

77. However, when there are no good alternatives at present, prices just become sticky at those levels.

If all women's soap is priced higher, women can't just boycott washing until soap prices come down. Hence, the prices stay high.

[JonQ]

81. Fortunately "mens" soap also works on women

they're usually on the same aisle too.

Soap isn't a gender specific product, like tampons or condoms. The cheap bar soap works exactly the same on a woman as it does on a man. So the options are A) buy overpriced soap marketed to women, B) don't buy soap or C) buy generic soap that is much cheaper and does basically the same thing.

[Zynx]

82. There are social constaints against that.

We can argue all we want that the social constraints shouldn't be there, but they are and as a result women do get gouged.

[JonQ]

84. Perhaps you should stop showering in public

if you are so concerned with what people think of your soap choices.

I mean, that's a pretty lame excuse. You have to buy it because it's expected of you and it's expected of you because you have to buy it.

[liberal_at_heart]

86. We have to be strong enough to stand up for ourselves

You say that like there is nothing we can do about the social constraints. To say we can't buy men's things because it is against the social norm is to just give up. There was a thread on the board the other day discussing feminism and feminine-ism. There are those of us who don't fit the stereotypical feminine definition of what society tells us we have to look like. We have to be strong enough to be ourselves even if that means being rejected by a few shallow jerks. Besides why would you want the approval of those shallow jerks anyway? I know I don't care. It's actually much easier to find people who really care about you when the shallow jerks aren't wasting your time telling you your beautiful, getting you into bed, and then dumping you. Not buying into the social constraints cuts through the bull and gets right down to what's important.

[JonQ]

89. Also

there are social constraints on how men are supposed to act, right? And a great many women on here take umbrage to those behaviors. So would it be acceptable to say "I can't help whistling at a woman who walks past, society expects it of me, so what I can I do"? I suspect not.

Not that there is that strong of a concern (at least on the male side of things) on what soap a woman uses. Excepting this thread I can't think of any time I've concerned myself with what soap a woman used, if it was cheap or overpriced. Any "social constraints" in this area are self inflicted.

[DatManFromNawlins]

145. They'll also pay $200 for a sack to keep the $40 worth of stuff they carry around with them

[Odin2005]

65. Women are also socialized by our society to buy a lot more useless consumerist crap.

Women are pressured to waste money on make-up, as well as pressured to by pricey designer clothes than us guys are. And look at how much a WEDDING DRESS, or even a PROM DRESS is compared to what us guys wear.

[lastliberalintexas]

129. To this I take umbrage

Men buy just as much useless crap, it's just of a different kind or character.

I agree that a woman doesn't need a $200 purse, but my husband didn't need a $200 cell phone either. My free through renewal phone actually works just as well (better battery even). And most women don't want $5000 4 wheelers, $1500/year hunting leases, $1000 set of golf clubs, etc. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Both genders waste far too much disposable income on trivial, often unneeded things. :)

[liberal_at_heart]

75. I notice it when shopping for my son and my daughter

pants, hair cuts, shoes, everything is more expensive for women.

[Taitertots]

80. The media has tricked them into believing that they need to

The big money is on making women feel bad about themselves and it is working.

What person with a healthy self esteem wants to buy $1500 handbags, make-up, corsets, extensions, pumps, and botox?

Don't fall for the corporate bullshit, ladies you are beautiful. The type of guys you want to find are not the people attracted by those. Take off the make-up and be yourself, you will meet men who respect YOU, care about YOU, and will be there for YOU in loving long term relationships. Maintain the corporate guided image and you will meet people who care about the image and not about you. Then when the image is gone they will be too.

[cherish44]

105. It's dumb to assume women have more sensitive skin than men!

My boyfriend has the most precious, delicate skin you've ever seen. He won't even go swimming at the lake cause it "hurts his skin". Wah!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

112. Because women will pay more for shit they don't need?

Damn, that sucks.

[lastliberalintexas]

131. Yeah, my uncle "needed" that 4 wheeler

He does hunt (which I won't comment on), but doesn't need a 4 wheeler at his lease. For that matter, he doesn't *need* to hunt and pay for a lease, either.

$5000 would buy an awful lot of makeup...

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cbdo2007]

117. It only costs more to be a woman if you fall for marketing that easily.

Target body wash is like $2.99 for just the regular. Smart men or women buy that.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

120. lot more reasons than just this.... try finding women's size quality work boots

I couldn't even find boy's sizes, not with steel toe and arch, insulated, lug soles.

I wear women's 6 to 6.5 So men's shoes don't work.

I did find a very few high quality women's hiking boots, but they cost a fortune.

Even good old Timberlands... years ago I found a pair in my size at the salvation army!! Went looking on Zappo's recently and I couldn't find 'em, not in my size......

:grrr:

but it's more than just overpriced cosmetics.
items marketed for women are typically shoddy and over-priced. It's industry standard. I just mentioned an anecdote upthread.

add to that lower pay, lower pensions, higher health costs, frequently financially responsible for family, etc etc etc

:nuke:

[Ms. Toad]

122. Methinks you're a young'un

It was very common, back in the day when stores still altered their upper end clothing to fit individual customers, for the stores to charge women for the exact same alteration they provided to their male customers for without charge (and they were even willing to throw in determining - and adjusting the pants fit for - which side of the seam said men wore their "family jewels" on - a service entirely unnecessary for their female customers.)

That's a bigger load of bunk - and it's not even imagination.

[Maine-ah]

157. don't assume.

[Ms. Toad]

158. It wasn't an assumption -

it was an inference drawn from the content of the post.

Since charging women for things men were given for free was commonplace through at least the first third of my lifetime - and the post expressed shock at a price differential and "tried to imagine a bigger load of bunk" and "failed," a task that would have required no imagination at all for anyone over the age of 40, or so, I drew the conclusion that the author was relatively young.

From the picture of the author at the link, it appears my logic was correct. Where my logic failed was in not recognizing that you just quoting someone else, rather than making your own commentary. Sorry for not confusing you with the author of the piece you were quoting (unless you are yearning to go back and be a young'un :evilgrin:)

[BlancheSplanchnik]

126. There are a lot of gouges we can avoid, but there are plenty that are much more difficult

to watch out for. Many of the discriminations I've experienced at work, I sought help but was given wrong information or sabotaged and had no recourse later.

As for other issues mentioned here--

I'd have to get 20 years of auto mechanics experience. Machine shop, too. Hardware and fix-it experience. Furnace and electrical experience. Plumbing. All of this, just to KNOW whether a hired person was gouging me or not...people I have to hire because I don't have the fix-it knowledge, nor the physical strength to wield many tools.

Some men here are stating points of view that sound wise, but are at the same time extremely myopic and show a clear hostility to women's experiences.

Simplistically polarized "answers" to very complex issues that women face every day, in the market place, at work, as citizens, as social beings offered in the spirit of a slap in the face, but masquerading as "hard-hitting" advice.

Fortunately, more people are becoming aware all the time. Even here, I see fewer chick-bashers than in the past.

[dysfunctional press]

135. women are willing to pay $7.49...men aren't.

there's your reason.

[JonQ]

141. Apparently it's not that simple

you see the patriarchy has conspired with the advertising agents to convince women from birth to buy more expensive things (they have no choice) as well as paying them no money to do equal work so they are forced in to dependency on males to provide for them, preventing them from working outside the home in any real way and perpetuating the rape culture that is the basis of our society.

Essentially they are made slaves and scented bath soaps are their chains.

Or at least that's what some argue.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

163. Well, Jonny boy, some of us HAVE to buy women's clothing because

we aren't shaped like men. I couldn't even wear jeans in the years when they were made only in men's sizes.

As for the other goop, I hardly buy any, because I'm self-employed and work from home.

However, when I was teaching on the college level, I had to dress up, because it was quite clear that while the men faculty could get away with teaching in whatever they felt like (including T-shirt, cutoffs, and flipflops in one case), any deviation from the "dress for success" look on the part of women faculty got you called into the department chair's office for a talk about your "unprofessional appearance."

So unless you were a woman in a previous life, you have NO IDEA what you're talking about.

[Gman2]

166. We were ALL a woman, in a previous life. In my instance, 49 and 9 months ago.

[JonQ]

168. You don't have to buy overpriced womens clothes

the same thing holds true for men, some items we have to buy for us because we're built differently. So logically, if that were the only factor, then men specific items would be overpriced garbage as well. Except for the fact that men refuse to buy overpriced jeans, shirts and whatnot (for the most part) so they don't try to market such items to us.

Sorry but you keep looking for a patriarchal conspiracy where there is only market forces at work. If women would stop buying overpriced junk by and large and they will stop marketing it to women.

"So unless you were a woman in a previous life, you have NO IDEA what you're talking about."

Unless you had common sense in a past life you have no idea what you are talking about.

[ismnotwasm]

140. I now wear

Comfortable and cheap clothes like yoga pants, tee shirts-- stretchy camisoles (to minimize bounce) instead of stupid, uncomfortable bras. When I want to dress up I hit the second hand stores and find beautiful things like hemp and silk dresses, or cotton skirts for maybe 10 dollars.

Tea tree oil mist for tonor (6 bucks) I go to the farmers market for natural moisturizer made with lavender and shea butter (10 bucks)

I do have an indulgence, a friend of our has a business where he makes fantastic bath products. Soap, bath oil, bath bombs, skin stuff, all kinds of goodness. He's a small business owner (and a gay black man) who we are proud to support, as often as we can. I love, love, love his stuff and it's far more reasonable than anything in stores.

I avoid buying much in "women's" section of any store, I do browse though, and feel smug about products I'm not buying; such as things that promise to "reduce the appearance of fine lines" and have the nerve to contain things like witch hazel--a relatively cheap product. Or overpriced bullshit that looks like some sort of medieval skin torture.

[KamaAina]

144. Bit more than a 2-buck difference for cars

the woman who introduced me to feminism two decades ago explained to me that (male) car dealers charge an informal "female tax", as well as a "non-Caucasian fee".

[MindPilot]

164. Now that's some of the happiest horseshit I've heard in long time!

Take it from someone who spent the first half of their working life in car dealers; when you walk into a dealer their only goal is get the maximum amount of money from you. I don't care one whit about your color or gender--or anything else--only how you are going to fit into my commission numbers this week.

[JonQ]

169. Bingo

people seem to be of the impression that every company in the US was started for the sole purpose of giving white males extra perks for free.

Nope, sorry, wrong. Every company in the world was started for the same reason: to make money for the people who started it. End of story. So they will overcharge anyone if they feel they can get away with it. Women aren't special in this regard, they try to gouge everyone to the maximum of their ability to do so.

[Kingofalldems]

175. Thanks Rush!

[JonQ]

176. Thanks for the brilliant riposte!

You contributed something meaningful.

[tammywammy]

173. +1, from someone else that worked in a dealership for quite a few years. n/t